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At this point, there's not a ton for me to add, but I'd like to put forward my case for not banning Jynx. First of all, there are quite a few Pokemon that are just as hard if not harder than Jynx to find a teamslot to check, such as Charizard; save for sleep, I find it much more difficult to prepare for Charizard than to prepare for Jynx. The example of Charizard brings me to another point: while many top tier threats can run lure sets to defeat their usual counters (such as Power Herb Charizard), whereas Jynx is pretty much stuck with some form of Choice/LO or SubNP. Jynx can use sleep to make beating it a lot more difficult, but keeping pressure with offensive teams makes it hard for it to get in and go to work for free, while Heal Bell on defensive teams can nullify its efforts. Further, Jynx is very easy to force out with priority or anything faster, so unless you don't have any checks for it (your fault), it's not an unstoppable monster.
Also, one more thing I want to touch on. Trick has been mentioned as something that Jynx can use to disable a Pokemon. Sure, it can, and it's definitely a good option on Choice Scarf sets, but it's really nothing new; many other choiced attackers run Trick or Switcheroo as well, and they haven't destroyed the metagame. Jynx is even one of the worse users of Trick in my opinion. One bad prediction will lose Jynx, so if you Trick while they attack, you're down a Pokemon.
At this point, there's not a ton for me to add, but I'd like to put forward my case for not banning Jynx. First of all, there are quite a few Pokemon that are just as hard if not harder than Jynx to find a teamslot to check, such as Charizard; save for sleep, I find it much more difficult to prepare for Charizard than to prepare for Jynx. The example of Charizard brings me to another point: while many top tier threats can run lure sets to defeat their usual counters (such as Power Herb Charizard), whereas Jynx is pretty much stuck with some form of Choice/LO or SubNP. Jynx can use sleep to make beating it a lot more difficult, but keeping pressure with offensive teams makes it hard for it to get in and go to work for free, while Heal Bell on defensive teams can nullify its efforts. Further, Jynx is very easy to force out with priority or anything faster, so unless you don't have any checks for it (your fault), it's not an unstoppable monster.
Also, one more thing I want to touch on. Trick has been mentioned as something that Jynx can use to disable a Pokemon. Sure, it can, and it's definitely a good option on Choice Scarf sets, but it's really nothing new; many other choiced attackers run Trick or Switcheroo as well, and they haven't destroyed the metagame. Jynx is even one of the worse users of Trick in my opinion. One bad prediction will lose Jynx, so if you Trick while they attack, you're down a Pokemon.
Honestly, I couldn't agree more. I've always wondered why Jynx never gave me any trouble. It's because I always use offensive pressure to win and prevent Jynx from getting a switch in. While Jynx is a great sweeper with sleep, speed and power, it has many flaws that stop it from, in my opinion, being ban-worthy.
1. Frailty
While Jynx has set the standard for speed in NU at a reasonable base 95, there are so many Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO. This pretty much removes its problem on offensive teams. Just to name a few things that can OHKO it after rocks:
Ninjask (Yes, 0 attack Ninjask OHKOs Jynx with X-Scissor)
Tauros
Charizard
Raichu (Special Variants only OHKO with a positive nature)
Scolipede
Primeape(If it outspeeds, it OHKOs)
Rapidash
Liepard
Swellow
Flotazel
Shuckle (252 Atk Shuckle Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 242-286 (88.64 - 104.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
I could name off every fast sweeper in NU and almost all of them can take out Jynx with one hit. This means Jynx cannot switch into much at all. Jynx has to switch in on a slow volt-switch or after something dies. And if something faster comes in, it is forced out again unless it wants to be revenge killed. On defensive teams, Jynx is more of a problem but Sleep Talk allows the Pokemon to fight back. Trick is deadly but it's not Jynx-exclusive. A lot of faster or slower Pokemon use Trick, and arguably do it better than Jynx. A lot of bulky Pokemon on defensive teams, such as Miltank and Lickilicky can 2HKO Jynx with the worst outcome is taking a ridicilously weak Ice Beam or having something turned into sleep fodder.
2.Power
Jynx cannot break walls at all. Without using Nasty Plot, Jynx cannot defeat bulky Pokemon. This combined with how it dies in 2 hits to pretty much anything is never good. The best it can do is send something to sleep, get a boost as the opponent switches out and hope the switch in doesn't OHKO it. That is pretty underwhelming unless it's played late-game. Then, 60-70% damage is a lot and could tear past the worn down remains of your team, which is honestly the best Jynx can do. However, it still fears being outsped and OHKOed or hit by Toxic.
3. Typing
Bug, Dark, Fire, Ghost, Steel, Rock. These types pretty much murder Jynx. Fire is incredibly common and Rock leaves it victim to Stone Edge and Stealth Rock. Fighting is another major hinderance because the attacks have high BP and are physical most of the time. So that's seven types, 5 of which are very common offensive types, that almost guarantee an OHKO(Unless it's coming from Shuckle or something). Also, it's switch-ins are limited due to SR, and as mentioned before, it kind of has to switch out unless it wants to be taken out by priority or a fast Pokemon.
4. Predictability
Jynx is not unpredictable. It only has a few sets, Nasty Plot, Sub or all-out attacker. Combined with how frail it is, a good prediction guarantees to criple it. Jynx just doesn't have the speed or bulk to deal with some of the faster threats. Sure, it OHKOs a lot of things, but there are just as many things that don't get OHKOed or can OHKO first. With good prediction, one can easily take out Jynx on a supposedly safe switch. Jynx is dead weight if you can't get it out without it dying.
5.Conclusion
Jynx is a great Pokemon, but it's not as powerful as it is said to be. It has both checks and counters which can take it out in one hit. It is fast but not fast enough to take out a lot of other threats.. It is incredibly frail and has a horrible defensive typing and a glaring SR weakness. So no, IMO Jynx isn't ban-worthy.
First of all, there are quite a few Pokemon that are just as hard if not harder than Jynx to find a teamslot to check, such as Charizard; save for sleep, I find it much more difficult to prepare for Charizard than to prepare for Jynx.
This really does not make any sense though, as you cannot just disregard one of jynx's most significant traits in sleep. Yeah, if jynx did not get sleep, than charizard may be be a bigger threat (though ice stab is arguebly the best offensive stab move). The whole point of the discussion is argueing whether sleep+speed+power is banworthy or not.
The example of Charizard brings me to another point: while many top tier threats can run lure sets to defeat their usual counters (such as Power Herb Charizard), whereas Jynx is pretty much stuck with some form of Choice/LO or SubNP.
Sure other pokes like charizard (which are not as easy to deal with as you are implying with stealth rocks) do have a fair amount of versatility, which I believe even strengths the arguement for jynx even more; you know pretty much what to expect ( with a little variation), yet it is still such a dominant and centralizing force to be reckoned with. Charizard really hasn't been thought of for suspect. Also, one of my favorite sets to use for jynx is FLCL's focus sash counter set, which may take out one of your biggest revenge killers for jynx (like a pursuit trapper) while still being able to fire off another sleep or powerful move (this set is harder to use because of stealth rocks, but can really throw others for a loop).
Jynx can use sleep to make beating it a lot more difficult, but keeping pressure with offensive teams makes it hard for it to get in and go to work for free, while Heal Bell on defensive teams can nullify its efforts. Further, Jynx is very easy to force out with priority or anything faster, so unless you don't have any checks for it (your fault), it's not an unstoppable monster.
I mean it is difficult for a fair amount of pokemon to directly switch into an offensive team, like scolipede (unless you predict the grass or fighting move), sawk, primeape, charizard (a hit+ s.r.), swellow, haunter and zangoose, yet all these pokes are excellent in coming in after a kill and function just fine in the tier. Yeah, jynx's bulk isnt great (though if need be it, can can a neutral special attack), which is its biggest flaw. For defensive teams, you also have to consider the turn to switch into a heal beller and the turn to actually use heal bell (two actions, or 1 if a poke faints). So you are using 2 turns to wake up another poke, and in this time, you can bring in a teammate to further influence your win for the battle or continue attacking with jynx. Sleep is just that good in this meta. Weakness to priority is also a negative for jynx, sure, but the fact that a poke that may not normally carry a priority move or pursuit may force the poke to forgo a coverage move and another pokemon could come in that normally cannot thanks to the priority. Now the purpose of move selection can be to check big threats, which is important, but the fact that jynx forces pokes to run an otherwise weak attack makes it easier for your other pokemon to succeed.
Also, one more thing I want to touch on. Trick has been mentioned as something that Jynx can use to disable a Pokemon. Sure, it can, and it's definitely a good option on Choice Scarf sets, but it's really nothing new; many other choiced attackers run Trick or Switcheroo as well, and they haven't destroyed the metagame. Jynx is even one of the worse users of Trick in my opinion. One bad prediction will lose Jynx, so if you Trick while they attack, you're down a Pokemon .
Yeah it's nothing new, but it can be a great way to cripple a normal counter or check to a poke. For instance, alomomola can easily come in onto cb floatzel's attack. However, if floatzel switcheroos its cb to the incoming alomomola, its screwed. I know everyone knows how trick works, but the fact that jynx can simply trick its choice scarf onto an incoming poke that can normally counter it ( because there are only a few pokes that don't mind a psychic or ice beam) is huge and gives you more opportunity to attack and fire off sleep in the future.
So that's seven types, 5 of which are very common offensive types, that almost guarantee an OHKO(Unless it's coming from Shuckle or something). Also, it's switch-ins are limited due to SR, and as mentioned before, it kind of has to switch out unless it wants to be taken out by priority or a fast Pokemon.
Actually, I used a Shuckle specifically for smashing Jynx on a troll team.
252 Atk Shuckle Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 242-286 (89.29 - 105.53%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
Gyro Ball is fun for that.
From what I've read so far, along with my own perspective, I think Jynx would be perfectly fair and balanced - and not really a suspect - were it not able to brush aside most of its offensive counters with Lovely Kiss. Is this suspect test limited to banning Jynx, or is banning Lovely Kiss a fair compromise? After all, SmashPass and several other specific moves and abilities have been banned to allow their users to remain in the tier.
Yeah, you really cannot ban lovely kiss, because you would then have to ban all sleep moves. While sleep is an excellent move, its inaccuracy+ limited move distrubution on pokes that either are slow (tangela) or don't have as much offensive presence (jumpluff) makes banning sleep inducing moves not worth it. I think shell smash is the only move in singles that has been banned in a tier just because it provides such a boost with almost no setbacks with white herb
I don't think that's quite true. Literally only Jynx gets the move. (Other than Smeargle, who is RU.) Such a ban would literally only be a Jynx nerf, and would be exactly the same as banning that one move from Jynx. Which seems to be for many people to be the sticking point.
Banning lovely kiss is not an option at this time. Sleep is not broken, if lovely kiss were to be suspected, spore and sleep powder would be as well because they are equal or better moves than lovely kiss outside of sap sipper
I don't think that's quite true. Literally only Jynx gets the move. (Other than Smeargle, who is RU.) Such a ban would literally only be a Jynx nerf, and would be exactly the same as banning that one move from Jynx. Which seems to be for many people to be the sticking point.
No, Sleep Powder isn't the same thing as Lovely Kiss. None of the users of Sleep Powder are also Jynx. That doesn't make a lick of sense. Regardless, it was just a spitball. It's not like I get to vote anyway. :rolleyes:
No, Sleep Powder isn't the same thing as Lovely Kiss. None of the users of Sleep Powder are also Jynx. That doesn't make a lick of sense. Regardless, it was just a spitball. It's not like I get to vote anyway. :rolleyes:
The main selling point of using a sleep move is to potentially neuter the opposition's main answer to whatever it is that's using said sleep move. Jynx does a good job with this and so does everything else. Quiver Dance Butterfree uses it well, Jumpluff is the fastest Sleep Powder user in NU, and Victreebel enjoys it as a sweeper. Those are just some of them that basically do what Jynx does with its own sleep move.
No, Sleep Powder isnt the same thing as Lovely Kiss. None of the users of Sleep Powder are also Jynx. That doesn't make a lick of sense. Regardless, it was just a spitball. It's not like I get to vote anyway. :rolleyes:
Yeah it does make sense, because banning a non broken move to nerf a pokemon is a bad idea, if sleep is the problem it should be the suspect. Also if this is your 4th vote pm me pls :)
Alas, I should have been more clear. I meant that saying that Sleep Powder and Lovely Kiss are the same move doesn't make any sense, not that keeping Lovely Kiss unbanned made no sense. If it's not the Smogon way, I'm fine with not banning Lovely Kiss. I was just wondering whether or not anyone else had considered it as a good option; clearly the community is against it, and that's fine.
It will take me a long time to write up the second half of my almost-scientific-but-not-really Jynx experiments, but as a preliminary statement I'll just say that I'm not as impressed with Jynx as I once was after the eons of testing. I've tried several other teams for this test, and a few times I was actually able to simply replace her without shuffling the rest of the team at all, and getting similar results. But I'll detail more on that in a while.
It will take me a long time to write up the second half of my almost-scientific-but-not-really Jynx experiments, but as a preliminary statement I'll just say that I'm not as impressed with Jynx as I once was after the eons of testing. I've tried several other teams for this test, and a few times I was actually able to simply replace her without shuffling the rest of the team at all, and getting similar results. But I'll detail more on that in a while.
Anyways, I think I'm obligated to post in this thread, so voilà.
Jynx is quite the oddball in my mind. While everyone seems to have jumped into the dnb bandwagon, I feel like I'm still torn on whether to vote ban or not (hey, i could abstain !). Jynx isn't as hard to prepare for as other Pokemon, as Fusx mentioned, especially with the Power Herb Charizard argument. The problem is that it has like one counter, and a handful of checks, none of which want to switch into an Ice Beam / Psychic. Although, the same thing could be said of Sawk and Braviary, which makes me lean a bit more on the dnb side.
Jynx is very frail, has an annoying weakness to Stealth Rocks, has no recovery and cannot live any priority barring shit like Vacuum Wave and stuff it is immune to such as Aqua Jet. I feel like the metagame has nicely adapted to it, but sometimes I wonder if the metagame would be better without it, and quite frankly, I have no idea. But something tells me that if I'm not sure if it's not broken, I shouldn't vote to ban it.
Also, about that Lovely Kiss banning nonsense, I don't think there's much to say about it other than if you ban Lovely Kiss, you're banning Sleep Powder and every other Sleep move, EVEN SING, thus nerfing Pokemon that aren't deemed broken whatsoever.
I hate to digress like this in the middle of a serious discussion, so this spoiler is for JCM. I'll leave it here instead of a PM in case anyone wants to add to this for some reason.
about that Lovely Kiss banning nonsense, I don't think there's much to say about it other than if you ban Lovely Kiss, you're banning Sleep Powder and every other Sleep move, EVEN SING, thus nerfing Pokemon that aren't deemed broken whatsoever.
Not necessarily. This is akin to one of those silly, almost self-parodic, slippery slope arguments where people say they'll be forced to marry bridges and horses now since two guys can get married. It doesn't make any sense at all to say that. When Drizzle+SS was banned in OU, Chlorophyll and Sand Rush weren't banned. Excadrill was banned separately. Do we need to suspect all Psychic types because we're thinking about banning this one? Ice types? Is there a rule somewhere that says we have to ban everything similar to what we're discussing? Oh hey, and...
If it's not the Smogon way, I'm fine with not banning Lovely Kiss. I was just wondering whether or not anyone else had considered it as a good option; clearly the community is against it, and that's fine.
I don't think there's any need to continue this line of discussion here. If you would like to continue your arguing against something I already dropped, feel free to send me private messages that I probably won't respond to.
As for the segment of my post about testing Jynx on a bulky offense team...
...can you clarify for me what in the nine worlds you're talking about? Is there a problem at all in a post that merely outlines the general theme of my experiences? What is there that can be problematic? The fact that I was able to do just as well with teams that didn't use Jynx as those that did? Or are you trying to say that some external factor is a problem? Am I not being scientific enough? Because there is only so much one can control in a few days of testing. I would appreciate if you would be more clear in your responses to me, rather than posting vague, slightly insulting, sentence fragments. This is the internet; your messages can only be read with context from typeface, content, and accompanying images. If there was some sort of hidden meaning, I did not catch it.
And to get back to the part of my post that was an analysis of Jynx herself. The fact that almost everyone seems to have picked a side already and my lack of ability to vote myself discourages me somewhat from writing another 2-hour post. So here are short lists of findings, from both this section and the combination of both segments.
Jynx and Bulky Teammates
1. Jynx cannot take a hit worth a damn.
2. If the rest of your team has the bulk to take those hits for her, things go much better.
3. Having allies that can go toe-to-toe (toe-to-fin or toe-to-talon?) with the big walls in NU means that she can either pick off weakened walls or bypass them entirely.
4. Jynx does not do very well against anything that can take a hit; if they can hit back at all physically or use a mediocre special attack, Jynx is done for.
5. Lovely Kiss is very good at getting past slow enemies, but sometimes it misses and Jynx dies.
6. Lovely Kiss is very good at getting past slow enemies, but sometimes sleep wears off early and Jynx dies.
7. Certain Jynx sets can beat usual counters, but for every 'mon you can now beat another becomes able to handle her.
Jynx overall
Yeah, she's good, but so are many other Pokemon in this metagame. Yeah, the metagame is warped a bit around her, but I doubt as much as it was warped around Sawk before the RU drops. (Hello, psychic spam and the mandatory Skuntank you take with your Sawk.) It's nothing even close to ADV OU's omnipresent Hidden Power Grass for Swampert. Most teams already had something that could beat her, but now you have to play a little smarter and make sure that check sticks around to do its job. I've loaded up teams from January and February, and while they were a little out of touch with the metagame, they weren't completely torn apart by Jynx; far from it. If anything screwed them up, it was Scolipede and the current ease of getting (Toxic) Spikes out. Lovely Kiss is annoying, but so is SwagPlay and so is SubSeed Jumpluff. They're not fun to play against, but they're there. In my own ideal NU metagame, that goddamn wall of a fish would let me play offense all I like, Liepard would be unheard of, and Relicanth's Head Smash wouldn't miss, but dreams are dreams. So yeah, My nonexistent vote would almost definitely be do not ban.
So, now that we have usage stats for July, I'd like to challenge an argument made earlier in the thread about Jynx's effect on the metagame. It was argued that Jynx caused the metagame to a continuously faster and frailer arms race; however, the stats clearly show otherwise.
Here is the relevant section of the Metagame Analysis from the March stats (just before Jynx was unbanned):
Code:
offense.......................45.47908%
balance.......................33.29166%
hyperoffense..................12.85553%
semistall..................... 5.26775%
stall......................... 3.10598%
Stalliness (mean: -0.110)
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more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 0.42%
Here is relevant section of the Metagame Analysis from last month's stats:
Code:
offense.......................42.08533%
balance.......................35.92523%
hyperoffense..................12.11080%
semistall..................... 6.68084%
stall......................... 3.19780%
Stalliness (mean: -0.051)
-2.0|#
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more negative = more offensive, more positive = more stall
one # = 0.41%
Well, would you look at that? Offense and Hyper Offense, have both gone down, while Balance, Semistall, and Stall have all gone up. Now, obviously, usage stats aren't always reliable, but at the very least, Jynx has not had a drastic effect on the offensiveness of the metagame. And though this is more subjective, in my experience Balance or Bulky Offense have been the premier playstyles this metagame in the more competitive scene.
aight time to post ugh. idk if im restating things or saying new stuff so w/e
Jynx is probably the best mon in NU for all the pros that were probably listed by every single poster above me. Its got a lot of things going for it but it also has some cons that were probably listed by every single poster above me. overall tho, jynx has had a pretty positive effect on the metagame imo. pre-jynx, you could honestly put like special samurott or rd ludicolo (or even both which a lot of good teams used) and just spam hydro pumps with honestly little resistance. it was really hard to find any really good water attack sponges especially on offensive teams where you cant really afford running like spdef zweilous without losing momentum and the spammers such as rott or ludi didnt have much to lose by just clicking hydro pump. now though with jynx, this nigga provides a fantastic immunity for offensive teams and it fits on them nearly perfectly (just cause its so good). however, most water-types all have ways of getting past jynx such as rott megahorn or carracosta stone edge but just the presence of jynx makes it so the match is more prediction based (go for hpump or go for megahorn) just because giving a free switch in for jynx can be really costly and should really be avoided but at the same time, you cant really risk jynx due to its frailty. this kind of mindgames makes the meta more favorable for me and more favorable than last one because of jynx.
a lot of people have been saying jynx is a 2 for 1 mon which isnt always true but w/e. you have to acknowledge the fact that against most teams, the pressure is so much that jynx cant really switch in without dying so you have to acknowledge the fact that you basically have to let something die (or use team support but thats including more than just jynx) for jynx to come in safely so wouldnt that be 2 for 2?? i know django said something about how he doesnt like having the meta just sac one pokemon to bring in another and then the opposing team has to do the same but its not really like that considering that a lot of offensive mons have pr good bulk such as golurk, eggy, sawk, samurott, or brav but the thing is that the jynx user _has_ to do that in order to bring in jynx so all those pros come with knowing that you will have to afford something on your team whether a moveslot or a pokemon to actually use jynx so its jynx doing that to her own team, not the opposing one.
anyways the biggest downside to jynx is definitely its inability to switch in because if it cant switch in, how can it harm the opposition? basically every mon has some way to cripple jynx in being whether its like an alomomola toxic or ludicolo 2hkoing with giga draining or twave from random mons or just straight up dying to stuff like gurdurr or sawk. theres also that pursuit trap weakness that can be used by pretty common pokemon and if you say that "ppl only run pursuit for jynx" - im fine with that because its a big threat and im preparing for it just like how people prepare for other threats like running psych up/curse on regirock to beat subbu braviary or hp grass electrode (any electric types honestly) for seismitoad. i definitely feel like its kind of hard to describe how jynx actually functions in a match just because you cant really switch in on anything so listing all those pros is useless when it comes with having to sac a team member. well anyways i cant really see jynx getting banned because its not doing really much harm to the current meta and i definitely like how its positively affecting this meta so do not ban jynx.
Of course while I am gone all the important stuff is discussed already wucka wucka
I really do like to reiterate how much diversity Jynx has added to the meta. While the only pokemon really outclassed by Jynx was Gardevoir, lots of new Pokemon have spurted for their more than likely chance of beating Jynx. In addition more Lum Berries and RestTalk sets and priority and speedier/scarfed pokemon have appeared on random Pokemon just for that check. I have seen a lot of surprises in this stage and it has been fun (fun==competitively thrilling} to see. Those are all viable ways to surprise and most likely beat Jynx (dat frailty). Jynx is definitely a threat to prepare for, but having certain pokemon move some attacking/speed evs to bulk so they can tank a hit and blow the witch away or giving them a situational item is not big enough of a sacrifice that she needs to be banned.
Also Lum Berry pokes help stop cat, so it makes that leftovers sacrifice a little less traumatizing :)
Idk if I'm really qualified to speak up here, but I've played enuf NU to realize that jynx is good. VERY good, in fact. But let me quote someone here.....can said counter switch in on ANY of jynx's attacks? If so, and if there are more than 1 counter, it will be just a threat. Mamo couldn't switch in on landorus' attacks in OU, therefore it wasn't a counter, it was a check. But we have things like sp.def Flareon (needs a little playing around) and grumpig that can switch in on Jynx's moves and force it out due to either fire STAB or just the fact that grump can para, and wall jynx. Yes, I realize ice STAB is dangeresque, and that jynx has an amazing offensive typing. But it really does have reliable counterS that DON'T only serve that purpose. Flareon can provide good wish support, grumpig can focus on being a bulky attacker who can team support with t-wave and cripple sum pokez. All-in-all, I feel like jynx is to NU as murkrow is to LC. An amazing attacker, who has different counters depending on the set.
I am in general disagreement with the argument that Jynx has viable counters and checks; All the pokemons that can indeed deal with Jynx can ONLY deal with Jynx. Metang is brought up as one of the best checks to Jynx but Metang is only good for that alone. Can Metang deal with Ludicolo? Charizard? Sawk or Golurk? NO! And that goes for all of these other checks and counters, they're only good against Jynx and nothing else (with the exception of Lapras and Flareon, but they're both garbage). In order to deal with Jynx you have to waste a whole teamslot on a pokemon that is never gonna be useful in any other situation; to me that is not making a healthy metagame for anybody.
If you only think Metang is good for beating Jynx, I don't know what to tell you. It gets rocks up, it can snipe off Carracosta with bullet punch, and it can go toe-to-toe with a lot of physical attackers. It's a pretty good tank.
Grumpig can't switch in to Sawk.
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Grumpig: 164-193 (45.05 - 53.02%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
Close Combat: 40.38 - 47.8%
People have been saying that Jynx has made it easier to deal with Water-types spamming Hydro Pump like Samurott and Ludicolo. I agree. Does it not seem to anyone else though that this might be two overpowered threats, and one is keeping the other in check? If they were that difficult to deal with before (to the point where adding Jynx has improved the metagame) then it seems to me that those Water-types themselves may be a problem. Besides, what Jynx checks or does not check is almost irrelevant to whether or not it is broken itself.
If you only think Metang is good for beating Jynx, I don't know what to tell you. It gets rocks up, it can snipe off Carracosta with bullet punch, and it can go toe-to-toe with a lot of physical attackers. It's a pretty good tank.
0 Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Carracosta: 27-33 (9.34 - 11.41%) -- 9HKO at best
252+ Atk Metang Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Carracosta: 40-48 (13.84 - 16.6%) -- possible 7HKO
Yeah that's really going to happen.
Metang isn't a great Pokemon. I honestly don't understand why people think of it so highly. It's below average at best, and the only differentiation it has over its better tanking counterparts (Carracosta, Golem, Regirock, etc) is that it packs a 4x resist to Psychic-type moves. Low and behold, it's a great Jynx (and Musharna if you want) check and that's it. It's outclassed in every other aspect. I'd say if Jynx was actually going to be banned, its usage will take a belly flop.
I don't know what I'm missing because I'm not seeing it, but this isn't a Metang thread anyway.
Not a voter, but one thing I've noticed in the last few weeks is that NU with Jynx is incredibly easy to pick up and play, regardless of previous NU experience. It's an offensive metagame for the most part, but it's not a giant slugfest like OU (for example). While Jynx is certainly a very prominent Pokemon, I for one haven't found it particularly overwhelming when teambuilding or when battling. Maybe I'll look over a completed team and realize it doesn't have a reliable Jynx check (we've all been there at some point), but it really isn't a huge strain on teambuilding. In battle, Lovely Kiss is deadly, but NU has a huge abundance of clerics, some of whom make pretty good Jynx checks when they aren't asleep themselves (Misdreavus, CM Heal Bell Musharna, etc.).
Basically, I don't think it's broken.
@SotheBlacKnight if you don't think a Steel-type is useful in a tier infested with powerful Normal, Flying, and Psychic-type moves, then I really don't know what to tell you. Of course Metang loses to Pokemon that can hit it with incredibly strong super effective STAB. Of course it loses to bulky Waters that can hit it with a Rain-boosted Hydro Pump or burn it with Scald. Of course it loses to CB Sawk (although if Sawk is locked into Close Combat, Metang can come in, tank one CC, and Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch for the KO). But Metang also happens to wall the huge number of Normal and Flying types in the tier like Braviary, Swellow, and to an extent Tauros, and if you run Toxic it's a good check to Musharna that don't run Heal Bell. Metang was still a good Pokemon before Jynx dropped; it's just gotten better.
Alright I guess I shouldn't have put Metang up on the spot (I'm not taking back my statement thou), what I was trying to say is that there are very few pokes that counter/check Jynx and still do something else.
Flareon and Lapras are stealth rock weak and can be easily checked and countered by most Physical Attacks (ex: Sawk, Golurk, Primeape, Swellow...).
Grumpig and Hypno can't be both a check to Jynx and Physical threats for they would take too much damage from one or the other.
And Metang and Klang have to run very specific sets to deal with Jynx, sets that don't deal well with much else.
And to put it simply all these guys are out classed by better pokes, pokes that unfortunately can't deal with Jynx. So basically you're wasting a team slot for what can potentially be dead weight to deal with Jynx.
