everybody pack granbull if you are fighting deej
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Metagame np: Stage 3 - 9(9) Problems
- Thread starter jake
- Start date
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Granbull aka the fake counter
It's a soft check bc you can roar it out :P
Not the best check, you still haven't killed it (what happens when its last Mon kinda thing) + has no recovery and when mala is at +2 def, play rough does pitiful damage
Steering the conversation away from Deejs massive hard on for the squid.
Can we talk about the idea of a suspect for mega lix? Iv brought this up before but it was just before the tier shift and we assumed we might actually get some mons :[ then contrary serp was released so obviously that was top priority.
I just think its a bit too much defensively and is p unhealthy for the meta just because of how many mons cant touch it and its not like it just sits there doing nothing in return, it hits everything relevant decently hard, has lots of coverage moves.
Can we talk about the idea of a suspect for mega lix? Iv brought this up before but it was just before the tier shift and we assumed we might actually get some mons :[ then contrary serp was released so obviously that was top priority.
I just think its a bit too much defensively and is p unhealthy for the meta just because of how many mons cant touch it and its not like it just sits there doing nothing in return, it hits everything relevant decently hard, has lots of coverage moves.
Right, in the similar vein how poliwrath is a soft Malamar check because it phases it out but can't beat it in a 1v1 scenario.
If everyone is really struggling that much to check Malamar without running a Bug-type Pokemon, why not pull a scorpdestroyer and run Rhydon. Not only is a great rock setter and fantastic Fire-type check, with Megahorn you can easily check Malamar. The outcome is either that they let their Malamar die or they have a severely crippled Malamar which can be easily revenge killed. Megahorn also lets you check Psychic types better such as Mesprit or Uxie who will try to come in and avoid things such as Earthquake and threaten Rhydon out with a Grass-type attack.
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Megahorn
0 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 92-110 (22.3 - 26.7%) -- 22.9% chance to 4HKO
+1 0 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 138-164 (33.5 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
16+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 272-320 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or you can sack something and bring in Rhydon against a Malamar without a Superpower up.
16+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 360-424 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Megahorn
0 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 92-110 (22.3 - 26.7%) -- 22.9% chance to 4HKO
+1 0 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 138-164 (33.5 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
16+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 272-320 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or you can sack something and bring in Rhydon against a Malamar without a Superpower up.
16+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 360-424 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Its not a terrible check, but if the player sees Rhydon come in on a superpower (25% roughly) they can swtich out, and later 2HKO it on its next switch due to no recovery. Sure it does work when its unexpected and its not a bad soft check, I just liked Bouffolant because it can outspeed. I beleive no real Hard checks for Malamar actually exist with Tomb gone.If everyone is really struggling that much to check Malamar without running a Bug-type Pokemon, why not pull a scorpdestroyer and run Rhydon. Not only is a great rock setter and fantastic Fire-type check, with Megahorn you can easily check Malamar. The outcome is either that they let their Malamar die or they have a severely crippled Malamar which can be easily revenge killed. Megahorn also lets you check Psychic types better such as Mesprit or Uxie who will try to come in and avoid things such as Earthquake and threaten Rhydon out with a Grass-type attack.
Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Rock Blast
- Megahorn
0 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 92-110 (22.3 - 26.7%) -- 22.9% chance to 4HKO
+1 0 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 138-164 (33.5 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
16+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 272-320 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Or you can sack something and bring in Rhydon against a Malamar without a Superpower up.
16+ Atk Rhydon Megahorn vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 360-424 (95.7 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Uh, bulky Scyther is a hard check lol (actually I would even go as far as to call it a counter as even at +1 Knock Off + Superpower doesn't even KO after rocks and thats taking off half of Scythers health lol). Having your Eviolite knocked off is less than ideal, but you can easily switch in on a Superpower or a Knock Off and KO next turn.
is bp even that bad though
I mean I just feel like there are a lot of hard hitters in the tier so passers often cannot do it safely, and we've got plenty of priority and scarfers that can stop that shit. Like IDK i guess it tears apart stall if you smashpass into xatu but I don't think it's suspect worthy.
MegaLix walls half the tier but lots of stuff easily kills it, and it can be a liability in that it lets stuff like Ludicolo freely setup unless it carries Roar / DTail / Explosion. I mean its top tier [S rank probs] no doubt, but ban worthy...eh.
I couldn't be more happy to find that Serperior was banned
gonna try some RU now.
The problem that I have with mega steelix isn't that it isn't unstoppable, but the things that force mega steelix out have to take a bunch from one of its STABs. Mega Steelix also switches into half of the tier so it gets plenty of opportunities to wear down its checks with one of its STABs. It's checks are usually 2/3hko'd so after it switches in once/twice you have to sac to bring in the mega steelix check. It's also really hard to wear Mega Steelix down when it can freely switch with its 4x resistance to sr and immunity to toxic. Even the best spikers in the tier don't match up well against Mega Steelix. Immunity to volt switch and u-turn resistance make it hard to wear down too.
Brawlfest being ban-worthy and suspect-worthy are completely different; if something is outright banworthy the Council decides on it, just felt like mentioning this. A Mega Steelix suspect would surely make sense considering its great typing, mixed bulk, and ability to hit frail switch-ins hard. It has utility as an SR user as well as a phazer and is a really great Pokemon. I don't see any issue with suspecting it simply because it's one of the best Pokemon in the tier, walls almost everything, and has a lot of utility (thus overshadowing other potential mons and creating a less diverse metagame, if anyone was wondering what my argument was leading to).
I think I have a unique perspective on some of these issues as I didn't play XY NU before getting drafted to start NU for SPL. I do not care about the ladder at all; just because you can build a successful ladder team and handle all the threats doesn't mean you have a good tier. You should be able to do that, or almost that, with several different Pokemon and have very different teams.
That is what you have to do when building for tournaments. You have to be able to put together several different teams. We are a few weeks into SPL and thus far most of the teams have been either similar or bad / missing a lot of metagame threats. The sheer emphasis that has been placed on innovation for NU is due to the tier being stale and hardly playable, with each suboptimal set or gimmick rewarded with positive reception, and each deviation to top tier threats seen as lazy and overly standard.
The problem with NU in its current state is that it's honestly impossible to do this. Obviously I'm not saying I hate having to check things but the problem is there are way too many overly powerful Pokemon in this tier that kind of create a divide. You have your Typhlosion, Feraligatr, Mega Steelix, Mega Camerupt, etc and...everything else. Considering the stats and qualities of NU caliber Pokemon, you have to bend over backwards to accommodate for the powerful Pokemon that shouldn't really be NU to begin with. This reduces the viability of everything else and makes it impossible to build without resorting to your standards like Seismitoad and Vileplume as without them you kind of end up losing to everything.
Do I think NU will be better off banning Mega Steelix? Absolutely. Feraligatr, Typhlosion, etc? I think so. But at the very least, I believe NU requires aggressive suspect testing in order to determine what should and should not remain in the tier. Like, aggressive and really subjective. There is nothing wrong with a suspect test as warranting closer examination and community discussion does not mean it will be banned. If the Pokemon is voted to not be banned, after discussion, we will better understand why.
I can think of like eight things I would want suspect tested, but I'm only super passionate about banning one of them. I think closer looks at particular Pokemon via more frequent suspect testing is absolutely necessary for the development of the tier as at the moment it's not very fun or diverse.
That is what you have to do when building for tournaments. You have to be able to put together several different teams. We are a few weeks into SPL and thus far most of the teams have been either similar or bad / missing a lot of metagame threats. The sheer emphasis that has been placed on innovation for NU is due to the tier being stale and hardly playable, with each suboptimal set or gimmick rewarded with positive reception, and each deviation to top tier threats seen as lazy and overly standard.
The problem with NU in its current state is that it's honestly impossible to do this. Obviously I'm not saying I hate having to check things but the problem is there are way too many overly powerful Pokemon in this tier that kind of create a divide. You have your Typhlosion, Feraligatr, Mega Steelix, Mega Camerupt, etc and...everything else. Considering the stats and qualities of NU caliber Pokemon, you have to bend over backwards to accommodate for the powerful Pokemon that shouldn't really be NU to begin with. This reduces the viability of everything else and makes it impossible to build without resorting to your standards like Seismitoad and Vileplume as without them you kind of end up losing to everything.
Do I think NU will be better off banning Mega Steelix? Absolutely. Feraligatr, Typhlosion, etc? I think so. But at the very least, I believe NU requires aggressive suspect testing in order to determine what should and should not remain in the tier. Like, aggressive and really subjective. There is nothing wrong with a suspect test as warranting closer examination and community discussion does not mean it will be banned. If the Pokemon is voted to not be banned, after discussion, we will better understand why.
I can think of like eight things I would want suspect tested, but I'm only super passionate about banning one of them. I think closer looks at particular Pokemon via more frequent suspect testing is absolutely necessary for the development of the tier as at the moment it's not very fun or diverse.
Agree that Steelix should go.
It lacks reliable recovery, true, but most teams that use Mega Steelix should have a cleric (read: Vileplume) on hand anyway to keep burns and other pesky status ailments off of Mega Steelix and its teammates. It can just Rest, and have Vileplume wake it up with Aromatherapy.
It also hits very hard for a wall, and doesn't really need defense investment. According to the 1760 stats, the most common spread is 240 HP / 252 Attack / 12 Speed.
It lacks reliable recovery, true, but most teams that use Mega Steelix should have a cleric (read: Vileplume) on hand anyway to keep burns and other pesky status ailments off of Mega Steelix and its teammates. It can just Rest, and have Vileplume wake it up with Aromatherapy.
It also hits very hard for a wall, and doesn't really need defense investment. According to the 1760 stats, the most common spread is 240 HP / 252 Attack / 12 Speed.
The most intellegent thing i have heard in 3 days.. Thank you for your contribution.
I'm pretty new to smogon, but I play NU for some time and I agree that NU has quite a few overcentralizing stuff. But I think Mega Steelix should be the focus of the next suspect test, as it walls a lot of the tier, like people mentioned before and a lot of stuff that can actually KO it cannot even switch in, as earthquake and heavy slam are really powerful coming from base 125 attack. While there are some solid checks/counters to it, such as Ludicolo and Mantine, I think the meta would be more enjoyable if it left, while it's not really broken like Sigilyph and Pangoro were, it feels unhealthy to the meta.
so it looks like we don't have any arguments talking about why mega-steelix should stay/not be suspected so I guess i'll be the first (The Goomy better back me up later though) i'm gonna address all the points that've previously been said and maybe a little more idk. (sorry for the incoming wall of text @.@)
the first thing that I noticed was you said that a good tier should be able to handle all the threats with a variety of different mons. One of the things that makes NU incredibly balanced right now is that almost every team archetype is extremely viable right now. With Serp being gone, Hyper Offense, Stall, Balance, Weather, and Bulky Offense all have a variety of mons that they can use to check the threats in the tier like Feraligatr, Typh, and M-Lix. Offensive teams can utilize Magnet Pull Probo (which can adapt to dragon tail/roar steelix with sub/taunt) to trap Mega Steelix and take it down entirely, as well as offensive checks like Ludicolo or Torterra. Any Mega Steelix set other than RestTalk has a difficult time with stall because they run multiple counters like Mantine or Tangela, etc.
when you talk about the meta being stale i'd just like to remind you that you said you didnt play XY at all. I think most people that played it will agree that XY NU was one of the more balanced metas since the beginning of of BW, yet even it was centralized around Typhlosion, Feraligatr and Slurpuff. You needed checks for each and if you didn't have them you would most likely end up losing. IMO this meta is very similar in the fact that you have to bring certain checks for certain mons, and just because people can't accept the fact that the meta is changing and run Mantine or Torterra, doesn't mean we should ban Mega Steelix. and I really dont like the argument about looking at a mon's stats/abilities and determining whether they look like "NU material". The power creep between gens is extremely high and as this game continues to get older we'll see more and more mons that "don't look NU" but fit well into the metagame.
Finally, the last thing that i'm gonna say is that a lot of these arguments are based upon Mega Steelix being very centralizing towards the metagame. I'm just gonna remind everyone that even if a mon is centralizing, that is no reason for it to be banned from a tier. I know everyone's just gonna say "i never said ban i just want it suspected euguheughg" but the fact that you are bringing it up means that you think it's unhealthy and want it banned. I'm just gonna drop something that user Arikado posted in the RU forums that I read while I was lurking the other day.
"Overcentralization isn't a reason to ban something. Doublade was the most centralizing Pokemon in XY RU and quite a few people wanted it suspected (they were a minority though) but it wasn't really broken. Having to always have to carry a check for something doesn't make it broken either; you have to have something for all top-tier Pokemon at least"
I believe that this is a really good summary of what Mega Steelix is like right now. It checks a lot of mons and is really centralizing but it isn't broken at all in the current meta. I'm under the impression that a mon has to be broken for it to be banned, but if not then please enlighten me.
Again sorry for the massive wall of text but I kinda wanted to get some arguments going for the other side. Have a nice day :)
While Mega-Steelix does seem difficult to wear down, the way that I see it, the offensive set (Max Attack, SR + 3 attacks) cannot repeatedly switch in to half the tier without being worn down due to it's lack of reliable recovery, especially considering how effective Spikes-Stacking is in NU. Almost all of the mons that it switches in to (mesprit, uxie, musharna, audino,) can either pivot out of it as well, or surprise it with a Fire Blast/Heat Wave/HP Fire and continue to wear it down.
just wanna say that this was a really good post and i respect your opinion/see where you're coming from.
the first thing that I noticed was you said that a good tier should be able to handle all the threats with a variety of different mons. One of the things that makes NU incredibly balanced right now is that almost every team archetype is extremely viable right now. With Serp being gone, Hyper Offense, Stall, Balance, Weather, and Bulky Offense all have a variety of mons that they can use to check the threats in the tier like Feraligatr, Typh, and M-Lix. Offensive teams can utilize Magnet Pull Probo (which can adapt to dragon tail/roar steelix with sub/taunt) to trap Mega Steelix and take it down entirely, as well as offensive checks like Ludicolo or Torterra. Any Mega Steelix set other than RestTalk has a difficult time with stall because they run multiple counters like Mantine or Tangela, etc.
when you talk about the meta being stale i'd just like to remind you that you said you didnt play XY at all. I think most people that played it will agree that XY NU was one of the more balanced metas since the beginning of of BW, yet even it was centralized around Typhlosion, Feraligatr and Slurpuff. You needed checks for each and if you didn't have them you would most likely end up losing. IMO this meta is very similar in the fact that you have to bring certain checks for certain mons, and just because people can't accept the fact that the meta is changing and run Mantine or Torterra, doesn't mean we should ban Mega Steelix. and I really dont like the argument about looking at a mon's stats/abilities and determining whether they look like "NU material". The power creep between gens is extremely high and as this game continues to get older we'll see more and more mons that "don't look NU" but fit well into the metagame.
Finally, the last thing that i'm gonna say is that a lot of these arguments are based upon Mega Steelix being very centralizing towards the metagame. I'm just gonna remind everyone that even if a mon is centralizing, that is no reason for it to be banned from a tier. I know everyone's just gonna say "i never said ban i just want it suspected euguheughg" but the fact that you are bringing it up means that you think it's unhealthy and want it banned. I'm just gonna drop something that user Arikado posted in the RU forums that I read while I was lurking the other day.
"Overcentralization isn't a reason to ban something. Doublade was the most centralizing Pokemon in XY RU and quite a few people wanted it suspected (they were a minority though) but it wasn't really broken. Having to always have to carry a check for something doesn't make it broken either; you have to have something for all top-tier Pokemon at least"
I believe that this is a really good summary of what Mega Steelix is like right now. It checks a lot of mons and is really centralizing but it isn't broken at all in the current meta. I'm under the impression that a mon has to be broken for it to be banned, but if not then please enlighten me.
Again sorry for the massive wall of text but I kinda wanted to get some arguments going for the other side. Have a nice day :)
The problem with Mega Steelix is that it simultaneously walls half the tier and destroys the majority of it offensively. With regular Steelix, it didn't matter if you gave it a free switch because even Sheer Force sets weren't that strong.
Spikes-stacking isn't that effective. When is the last time you saw Crustle hyper offense? Prinplup is on tons of teams as well, and we only have like one good defensive Spiker.
I also don't know why people are saying every playstyle is viable. You might be able to use every playstyle, but it doesn't stop balanced and bulky offense from being dominant. With Mega Audino, Mega Steelix, and Mega Camerupt all being best on balanced and bulky offense, you're usually at a disadvantage if you use something else.
I don't know why you would mention how stall handles Mega Steelix. I don't see how it's relevant at all. Stall doesn't run the Pokemon that Mega Steelix gives troubles with. Kangaskhan, Pawniard, Sneasel, Liepard, Scyther, Archeops, Swellow, etc. are either considerably worse than they were before or nearly unviable because of Mega Steelix's mere presence in the tier. I'm all for adapting to new threats, but it becomes a problem when adapting means not using a good number of Pokemon.
You don't just "carry a check" to Mega Steelix most of the time. I have one team where I'm using defensive Ludicolo as an answer to it, and on that team, I have the liberty of using Liepard despite it giving a free Mega Steelix switch. But every other team where I'm using a Pokemon that gets shit on by Mega Steelix, I have multiple lures for Mega Steelix because if I didn't, I'd basically be down 5-6 until the Mega Steelix died. The comparison to Doublade doesn't really work because you actually could just carry a check and call it a day. You might have a Pokemon or two that were less effective until it died, but they were rarely completely worthless. Centralization on its own isn't a great argument because at this point, it's practically meaningless on Smogon with everyone throwing it around every time something gets suspected or they want something suspected, but NU is definitely centralized around Mega Steelix. You just can't afford to use any of the many Pokemon that don't do anything to Mega Steelix because it's so strong and has killer coverage.
Finally, I have no fucking idea what you're talking about when you say, "...just because people can't accept the fact that the meta is changing and run Mantine or Torterra, doesn't mean we should ban Mega Steelix."
=)
Spikes-stacking isn't that effective. When is the last time you saw Crustle hyper offense? Prinplup is on tons of teams as well, and we only have like one good defensive Spiker.
I also don't know why people are saying every playstyle is viable. You might be able to use every playstyle, but it doesn't stop balanced and bulky offense from being dominant. With Mega Audino, Mega Steelix, and Mega Camerupt all being best on balanced and bulky offense, you're usually at a disadvantage if you use something else.
I don't know why you would mention how stall handles Mega Steelix. I don't see how it's relevant at all. Stall doesn't run the Pokemon that Mega Steelix gives troubles with. Kangaskhan, Pawniard, Sneasel, Liepard, Scyther, Archeops, Swellow, etc. are either considerably worse than they were before or nearly unviable because of Mega Steelix's mere presence in the tier. I'm all for adapting to new threats, but it becomes a problem when adapting means not using a good number of Pokemon.
You don't just "carry a check" to Mega Steelix most of the time. I have one team where I'm using defensive Ludicolo as an answer to it, and on that team, I have the liberty of using Liepard despite it giving a free Mega Steelix switch. But every other team where I'm using a Pokemon that gets shit on by Mega Steelix, I have multiple lures for Mega Steelix because if I didn't, I'd basically be down 5-6 until the Mega Steelix died. The comparison to Doublade doesn't really work because you actually could just carry a check and call it a day. You might have a Pokemon or two that were less effective until it died, but they were rarely completely worthless. Centralization on its own isn't a great argument because at this point, it's practically meaningless on Smogon with everyone throwing it around every time something gets suspected or they want something suspected, but NU is definitely centralized around Mega Steelix. You just can't afford to use any of the many Pokemon that don't do anything to Mega Steelix because it's so strong and has killer coverage.
Finally, I have no fucking idea what you're talking about when you say, "...just because people can't accept the fact that the meta is changing and run Mantine or Torterra, doesn't mean we should ban Mega Steelix."
=)
The Goomy
Whitest Mexican Alive
I gotchu Can-Eh-Dian
For the first part: It's important to consider all team archetypes when determining if a Pokemon is broken. For ex: Pangoro wasn't amazing against offense, but it made stall un-viable as a playstyle.
Kanga: Low Kick
Pawniard: Was never that good in the first place
Sneasel: 2hkos with Low Kick
Liepard: U-turn out on it coming in
Scyther: U-turn Out on it coming in
Archeops: Heat Wave 2hkos
Swellow: U-turn out on it coming in
I don't see why people believe having to prepare your movesets for a top mon make that mon broken.
And most importantly:
Ok. This is the part of the overcentralization argument that is absolute bull-shit.
What defines a "good" Pokemon?
I believe (and I would like to believe most people would agree) that a definition of a good Pokemon is:
"A Pokemon that can perform well in the tier around it. It has the ability to either hit top threats hard, wall top threats, or a combination thereof."
So...since a Pokemon was "good" last gen, and it is not good now (because there are new threats in the meta) This means that M-Lix is broken?
Darwin's Theory of Evolution operates on the principle of survival of the fittest.
AKA: Animals (in this case Mons) that have desirable traits are picked more and more often until they become the normal (standard meta).
Steelix has a lot of desirable traits, that's why it's being used. But it's not broken.
Let's imagine a bird adapts it's beak to eat a particular tree's seeds. BUT, the tree then changes it structure so that the bird can no longer eat those seeds.
It doesn't make the ingenious design of the first beak any different than it first was, but the birds are gonna die because they can't eat.
The Pokemon that lose to Steelix have an undesirable trait (losing to a top mon), so they are inherently BAD.
This does not make Mega-Lix any more or less "broken" than it already is, it just means that the environment around the previously good Mons have changed.
I think it's incredibly healthy to have an evolving metagame with new threats that are at the top of the meta.
If M-Lix leaves, the meta will basically be back to XY NU ft. Mega Camel.
Math will tell you that no matter how many Pokemon you ban from a tier, there will always be TOP MONS.
The thing that makes Pokemon TOP MONS is the environment around it (NU).
So if Mega-Lix goes, there will be an entirely new meta (much like when Aegi left OU).
But that meta will still be centralized around NEW TOP THREATS revolving around what's in the tier.
If we suspect 8-10 mons as blarajan suggested (and when's the last time a suspect did not result in a ban?)
There will be a new meta centralized around new top threats just because we felt like it.
It's impossible to created an un-centralized metagame...players adapt, the Pokemon in the meta will always have top mons because they perform well relative to their peers.
Basically, in conclusion, this is why I think an overcentralization argument is a bad argument to suspect/ban something:
- If it isn't broken it doesn't need to be banned (Heatran on like 80% of DPP teams at one point iirc)
- The meta will simply adapt and there will be new top threats, and potentially broken ones.
- It's impossible to "un-centralize a meta"
This is why the tiering system is set up the way it is. As players we get to choose how tiers get populated (via usage) from the ENTIRE POPULATION (OU).
Then we do the new population (UU) and the new population (RU) and the new population (NU) and the new population (PU) to determine what works within those environments.
Getting rid of a mon simply because you don't like the fact that it's in a tier (and can help to shape that environment) is trash. If you don't like the tier as it is (unless you believe something is BROKEN, not overcentralizing), go play a different tier, that's why we have them.
-Goomy
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Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
I personally don't think Megalix is broken and I like the fact that team-building is in NU requires finding checks and whatnot for tons of threats, I feel it defines the tier.
It's definitely the hardest tier to teambuild in and in turn I feel NU users are the best teambuilders because of that, so transitioning to other tiers like OU and UU is a breeze.
I do, however, agree with more active suspect testing, as I feel we are the most "laid back" tier in terms of suspect tests.
I'm not going to argue my points about not banning Megalix as it seems people have already made up their minds, so maybe a suspect test could be done to show the opinion of the tier as a whole.
It's definitely the hardest tier to teambuild in and in turn I feel NU users are the best teambuilders because of that, so transitioning to other tiers like OU and UU is a breeze.
I do, however, agree with more active suspect testing, as I feel we are the most "laid back" tier in terms of suspect tests.
I'm not going to argue my points about not banning Megalix as it seems people have already made up their minds, so maybe a suspect test could be done to show the opinion of the tier as a whole.
Yeah I'm not writing an essay here like yall but tbh I think what blara said is a main reason why whenever something remotely broken is introduced in the tier it's so helpless. You have to basically use the same stuff to make sure u don't lose the top 'mons so your teambuilding is strained as is already.
My way of looking at it isn't that a tier is either broken or not. Instead basically a tier has an amount of strain it can take from a threat that is clearly miles above the rest. Adding 1 such threat shouldn't break a healthy metagame immediately. When the strain reaches a threshold, it restricts teambuilding to basically 3-4 archetypes, making it a whole lot stale. One overcentralizing Pokemon doesn't need to be banned, but having too many 'overcentralizing' pokemon basically locks up your teamslots making it really difficult to deviate from anything. I've seen one too many teams where I asked myself hey isn't that basically what I also have except I have a different Fighting check? etc.
Teambuilding in NU is really simple right now. Either rehash the same core, or pick something rogue that beats the standard bulky balance core and build around that.
Main problem is that i feel many of those threats that strain the tier aren't absurdly broken on their own, and to make the matter worse, quite similar in their power level. It wouldn't be fair to ban one and not ban the other, etc. I'm also not convinced with having to ban like 6 pokemon, either.
My way of looking at it isn't that a tier is either broken or not. Instead basically a tier has an amount of strain it can take from a threat that is clearly miles above the rest. Adding 1 such threat shouldn't break a healthy metagame immediately. When the strain reaches a threshold, it restricts teambuilding to basically 3-4 archetypes, making it a whole lot stale. One overcentralizing Pokemon doesn't need to be banned, but having too many 'overcentralizing' pokemon basically locks up your teamslots making it really difficult to deviate from anything. I've seen one too many teams where I asked myself hey isn't that basically what I also have except I have a different Fighting check? etc.
Teambuilding in NU is really simple right now. Either rehash the same core, or pick something rogue that beats the standard bulky balance core and build around that.
Main problem is that i feel many of those threats that strain the tier aren't absurdly broken on their own, and to make the matter worse, quite similar in their power level. It wouldn't be fair to ban one and not ban the other, etc. I'm also not convinced with having to ban like 6 pokemon, either.
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I'm sorry but how? After a lot of prior damage and layer of spikes maybe.
252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 133-156 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Archeops Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 244 SpD Mega Steelix: 124-148 (35 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Also this argument that we need to leave the tier alone because it has to adapt is incredibly flawed. If we are always supposed to run suspect tests only on pokemon that are obviously broken there's no point in holding them in the first place, then we can just ban them and get that over with. A suspect test can just as well show the pokemon isn't as broken as it first seemed, there's nothing wrong with that and it has happened in the past.
But at least something needs to be done. NU right now is like a badly built boat on the ocean with a couple of guys pumping out water as fast as they can. It just barely manages to stay floating but as soon as anything extra gets added to the boat it sinks. And for a tier that is supposedly as varied as NU is, there's is quite honestly a really big overlap in what pokemon you can use for the various teams making the actual pool of viable pokemon smaller than you'd think.
Also marilli if booting a handful of mons means the meta just doesn't fall over dead with every new addition, maybe that's worth it.
Lastly, I'm not arguing this as for/against a steelix ban, but the people who can say right now that the tier is healthy need to look harder.
What blarajan said is so right that it hurts and I think as a tier nu needs to take action. I think it is extremely important for everyone's argument's sake to consider what he has said. Personally, I don't think things like megaLix and Mega Camerupt is broken per se, but in a tier that requires you to check a million threats than something needs to be done and some suspects definitely need to take place. Everyone's mentality seems to be that suspect tests mean automatic ban. They dont. The idea is that we see if they are broken and it is sometimes very hard to tell until you play in a meta without them.
Trying to put this into words was too long, so Im just going to leave this here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-tiering-system-voting-records.3520708/
Basically, I'm proposing we use the UU system, or a similar variation of it. I know this is very forward of me and I know the tier leaders will probably not agree with me, but I think it will for sure help the NU tier. Just read about their system, it is IMO much more efficient and provides better results, but it means the NU council and leaders is going to have to seriously step up their game. I think that will be a good thing though, this tier needs more activity from auth and most importantly it's leaders and this will help to do that while making a better tier and therefore a happier community. Everyone wins.
Now the system may seem very dictatorship-esque at first, but it's like our only option now since nothing else is really being done to help NU be more balanced and there's no denying that. I think this system in particular will help NU out specifically. By the looks of it, every problem blarajan mentioned can be patched up with this system. The real downside is that we all as a community will no longer be able to vote for pokemon to be banned, so that is something to consider. I don't really have much more to say, I just think this is something new we should consider is all.
I assume there are problems I don't know of or didn't consider with the system, so thoughts/feedback on it from the NU tier leaders would be appreciated. It is a really bold move for me to suggest I know, but we have very little options if we want to make NU more balanced, productive, etc, etc.
Trying to put this into words was too long, so Im just going to leave this here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/uu-tiering-system-voting-records.3520708/
Basically, I'm proposing we use the UU system, or a similar variation of it. I know this is very forward of me and I know the tier leaders will probably not agree with me, but I think it will for sure help the NU tier. Just read about their system, it is IMO much more efficient and provides better results, but it means the NU council and leaders is going to have to seriously step up their game. I think that will be a good thing though, this tier needs more activity from auth and most importantly it's leaders and this will help to do that while making a better tier and therefore a happier community. Everyone wins.
Now the system may seem very dictatorship-esque at first, but it's like our only option now since nothing else is really being done to help NU be more balanced and there's no denying that. I think this system in particular will help NU out specifically. By the looks of it, every problem blarajan mentioned can be patched up with this system. The real downside is that we all as a community will no longer be able to vote for pokemon to be banned, so that is something to consider. I don't really have much more to say, I just think this is something new we should consider is all.
I assume there are problems I don't know of or didn't consider with the system, so thoughts/feedback on it from the NU tier leaders would be appreciated. It is a really bold move for me to suggest I know, but we have very little options if we want to make NU more balanced, productive, etc, etc.
I'm definitely aligning myself with the pro-suspect side of things here. Compared to the Serp NU we had not too long ago, NU is definitely more balanced and team building is more enjoyable. Any competent team builder is enjoying finding some cute, new answers to M-lix or using new, obscure mons to handle old threats, etc. However, I feel as if we're closely approaching the point the late XY meta did where team structure is going to become formulaic and dull. Not to say team building *shouldn't* be formulaic, but moreso in a sense that you're forced into rehashing the same cores to play effectively at high levels of play.
Not going to rehash anything more on what's already been said cause that's not my thing.
If there is ever a suspect test I would be beyond ecstatic about it would be a Typhlosion suspect. I know any competent player who has built a team in the past 5-6 months understands how suffocating this thing is in team builder. You're either forced to run Mantine/Hariyama or you have to run at least 2 soft checks to it. I can handle Gatr, Gatr is way more fluid in your answers to it. Rotom lives +2 jet after rocks, Kanga can knock it out with a tiny bit of prior damage + fake out + edge, etc. Typh either has a shaky switch in or kills a mon, there is no in between.
Obviously, it has a lot of revenge killers and you can be "that guy" and spam Hariyama on all of your teams, but I think it is the mon (other than M-lix, of course) that is most worthy of a suspect just because of how disgusting it is to prepare for. I'd love to see if team building is anymore enjoyable because this nuke button is gone.
Not going to rehash anything more on what's already been said cause that's not my thing.
If there is ever a suspect test I would be beyond ecstatic about it would be a Typhlosion suspect. I know any competent player who has built a team in the past 5-6 months understands how suffocating this thing is in team builder. You're either forced to run Mantine/Hariyama or you have to run at least 2 soft checks to it. I can handle Gatr, Gatr is way more fluid in your answers to it. Rotom lives +2 jet after rocks, Kanga can knock it out with a tiny bit of prior damage + fake out + edge, etc. Typh either has a shaky switch in or kills a mon, there is no in between.
Obviously, it has a lot of revenge killers and you can be "that guy" and spam Hariyama on all of your teams, but I think it is the mon (other than M-lix, of course) that is most worthy of a suspect just because of how disgusting it is to prepare for. I'd love to see if team building is anymore enjoyable because this nuke button is gone.
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