np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Gerard]

PS: for those who say cacturne is not a important, it is, i played UU Gen 4 and i had many looses to Haxturne that i actually begin to use aerial ace ambipom to counter it, in UU there are things that are just as uncompetitive and should be banned if they are in OU since it's not the only metagame (and certainly not the only important one)

 

[Hrothdane]

Sandstorm + sandveil wont work
since t tar and hippodown are on the top of the usage stats
i guess it could be blamed on the player for running t tar or hippodown
but that player will still scream hax when a attack misses

This is a good point. Even with a complex sandstorm/sandveil ban, people will still complain about Garchomp hax because chances are that teams with Tyranitar and/or Hippowdon will end up matched up against teams with Garchomp. The complaining might get a little quieter, but it won't end.

Furthermore, banning sand veil under the evasion clause doesn't just send chomp to ubers, it soft bans him completely in gen 4 and gen 5 until the dream world ability comes out (IF it comes out).

Lastly, IF sand veil is considered broken on subchomp--as some in this thread have suggested--then its a problem with chomp, not with sand veil.

Personally, I think people are getting a little too ban-happy. I support suspending suspect testing for now.

 

[AlphaSpade]

3rd Gen Sandslash for Ubers anyone?

But seriously, how hard is it to understand that:

-If you ban Garchomp, Garchomp is banned.
-If you ban Sand Veil, Garchomp is banned (for who knows how long), along with a few others.

Same result either way, but a Sand Veil ban would have bigger (and possibly permanent, since GF is stupid) costs.

And I don't see how people who want to do away with Aldaron's proposal can support a ban of similar characteristics.

 

[Glen ^^]

did i said that garchomp wasn't worth of multiple checks?

When people keep saying that a miss = a sweep for Garchomp, yes.

And so what if Cacturne is weak? It's a grass type that doesn't take damage from sandstorm. The only one in the whole game.
It's not a retarded example like Swift Swim Magikarp.

 

[capefeather]

"Garchomp avoided the attack like a smug motherfucker!"

I completely agree with this post. People are taking the "Evasion Clause" way too far. The Brightpowder / Lax Incense ban was already pushing it. Fine, it's "uncompetitive" for a normally 100% accuracy move to miss. But is it actually worth messing with illegalities and even banning entire Pokémon for the sake of expanding the "Evasion Clause"?

 

[alexwolf]

Sandstorm + sandveil wont work
since t tar and hippodown are on the top of the usage stats
i guess it could be blamed on the player for running t tar or hippodown
but that player will still scream hax when a attack misses

while this is true people will stop using and abusing subchomp so much so the problem will be much smaller...

When people keep saying that a miss = a sweep for Garchomp, yes.

yes but you refered specifically to me.i have never said that a miss=a sweep for garchomp...it depends entirely in the situation.sometimes it means a sweep and sometimes it doesn't....

 

[Blackdragonking]

Can't weaken it if you're going to miss with a non-perfect accuracy move anyways!

I can only assume you're pointing this out to express your contempt for the fact we're still having this stupid, stupid argument, so whatever. I'm completely fine with just banning ****ing Garchomp, but given that it is paradoxically both broken and completely fine to the people calling for a sand veil ban, you tell me what we're supposed to do about it.

PS: for those who say cacturne is not a important, it is, i played UU Gen 4 and i had many looses to Haxturne that i actually begin to use aerial ace ambipom to counter it, in UU there are things that are just as uncompetitive and should be banned if they are in OU since it's not the only metagame (and certainly not the only important one)

Cacturne is not a broken pokemon, even with a 20% evasion chance. Its defenses are made of glass, meaning a single accurate attack will take it down most of the time. It can't sweep the way Garchomp can, it's just too slow. Cacturne is and always has been a mind-game pokemon, a pretty good one but not even close to broken. There's a lot of good bugs in that tier that can kill Cacturne instantly with Bug Buzz or X-Scissor if you're not one of those types that doesn't wanna hear it if it's not Megahorn. Hell, Scyther's UU viable, and he counters the hell out of Cacturne with a 120 BP Aerial Ace.

Stop pretending there's a problem besides Garchomp. There isn't. I still don't see why we don't just ****ing ban Garchomp besides the same people who complain about how hax his Sand Veil abusing set is claiming he's not broken at all. Blaze Blaziken's not broken at all, but Blaziken was banned, not Speed Boost Blaziken. Speed Boost Blaziken was banned, not Speed Boost Sharpedo and Speed Boost Ninjask along with it. There's a fair amount of precedent here that would support just bringing down Chomp.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

i agree that in the beginning it was just the grandfathering of some old rules.but from gen 3 i think were the competitive metagame had started to become interesting and more people became attracted to it it was made clear why these moves weren't allowed.

Double team and minimize are banned becuase they where annoying as fuck, as with Shaymin, the way they played lead to an undesirable metagame, that no one wanted to play in, and in there good opinion, we banned them. Now, sand veil is neither anywhere near as annoying as that, and its not broken, now if sand viel breaks a certain pokemon then you ban that pokemon, any only a pokemon is even close to that.

'cause even if they don't give you statistically big enough chances to have a constant winning streak they allow completely crazy scenarios to happen like someone very skilled losing by someone very unskilled just because the latter decided to use double team and the skilled player got unlucky.i don't think that this is supposed to happen in a competitive communitywhen a very good player plays against a very bad player 99,9% the good player must win.but this wouldn't be the case if these moves were allowed...
although in a smaller degree,sand veil and snow cloak do the same...they give the ability to players to win when they shoudn't...and the worst thing is that people can even abuse further this luck element to their own advantage by using substitute!so if i chose to make a batton bass team that has a sand veil sandslash (i chose sandslash instead of garchomp 'cause maybe i am a new player or because i don't like to use what everyone is using)as it's sweeper and i manage to get 1 or 2 misses when i batton pass the boosts to him that could very possibly mean the end for the opponent even though he might have played better...
or say i use the same sand veil sandslash as a spinner and i run a full stall team.you have a spinner in your team and you don't see any ghost in my team so you let me get some layers of spikes or t-spikes.later you come in and try to spin while a switch in to sandslash and you miss...then you try again to spin or to kill me and you miss again allowing me to either kill you or toxic you...eventually you lose the match 'cause luck wasn't on your side even though you were much more skilled...
even though one could argue that there are many times when games played even by equally skilled players very often are decided by hax such as an untiimely crit or a freeze that happens so rare that it can be added to the almost never happening case...the chances for a crit to happen are 6,25 percent.the chances for crit that matters greatly to happen are like 1 or 2 percent 'cause most of the hits that happen in a battle are resisted due to switching(see how close is the number to the 99% i mentioned above).

First off, sandslash is a terrible example, defensively I don't think in any teir anywhere, has sand veil hax with sandslash even cost them a game.

A good player will never win against a worse player 99.9% of the time, thats unrealistic, a simple critical hit hax, or a miss with fire blast can cause a loss of a game. Heck even the off chance that you won't get that 1HKO 4% of the time, might be your demise. And even outside of hax a worse player can win though odd move predictions and playstyle, and a random team that happens to beat the better player, even though overall the team is bad. At best you can say a better player will win 70%-80% of the time. The metagame does not exist to bring the best players to the top as its first goal, its made for the enjoyment and sport of the game. If you truely want to prove you are the best, overall, even with hax, you will win more then not.

the chance for a freeze is 10%.when you consider the fact that almost any poke that uses ice attacks with a freeze chance doesn't get stab(meaning that they are coverage moves)you will see that most of the times the players don't use the ice moves but their stab moves which have greater damage output.also a lot of pokes don't use ice beam and instead use hp ice...and anyway let's see how many pokes actually use ice moves with a chance to freeze.
in ou there are:politoed,jelicient(rarely),starmie,vaporeon,swampert and deoxys-s,tentacruel(very rare)!
so there are only 7 pokes which use these moves at all(some of them use it often some of them use it rarely).so the chances that a vital member of your team will get frozen by such a move are again very very low....
so we are finished with the most major instances of hax..there are other luck factors,less detrimental to the winning of the game like parahax or burnhax...but these effects are not so game breaking when they happen and they can be played around in most of the cases so again in 95% or more of the matches they don't appear anyway...

All I have to say to this is Garchomp is the only major sand viel pokemon out there in OU, thats even less then those 7 ice beamers. Thats even less of a hax chance as far as a metagame goes, and again, that is a pokemon.

but anyway all of these effects cannot be avoided because they happen uncontrollably and they also have other effetcs such as damage.so we cannot ban the moves that cause these forms oh hax 'cause they also do damage and there is nothing wrong with this.for a move to be banned every aspect of it must be unwanted.but in all these moves there is one wanted thing(damage) and one unwanted(hax) so we keep them this way.in the other way double team has only 1 effect(hax) which makes the possibility that the battle will get out of your control looking not so rare.and the same happens with sand veil(excpet that there must be sandstorm up).

Again, what about my flash and sand attack example? No one uses sand attack, but it is a choice that the opposing play makes, that effects the other persons chance of hitting, and certainly using sand attack isn't competitive, so why not ban that to under that logic? The fact is, it isn't, you don't go banning things, that have no place in being banned, banning Luvdisc+drizzle far far enough, we don't need all sorts of absurd combo bans running around, for even less of a problem.

if i am right and the evasion raising moves and items were banned due to the reasons that i am telling(meaning uncompetitiveness and not grandfathering which i think is the case)then according to the exact same logic a complex ban should be implemented as a further extention of the evasion clasue to include sand veil and snow cloak!but if these moves and these items were banned just because they were already banned from the past(and for none else reason)then we should clearly unban them and test them on every pokemon...

Double team makes every single pokemon that has it an annoyance, which is every pokemon in the game that can learn TMs. Surely you aren't comparing this to the few dozen pokemon with sand veil and snow cloak? And once again, it causes problems in all tiers, in every metagame. Sand veil isn't a problem in UU, neither is snow cloak. They aren't problem in Ubers either. Nor will they be in NU either, when it comes out. So what pokemon comes to be a problem here? Once again, a pokemon in OU, Garchomp, that it.

 

[Katakiri]

And so what if Cacturne is weak? It's a grass type that doesn't take damage from sandstorm. The only one in the whole game.

*sheds a tear for Torterra & Cradily* (Ferrothorn can burn for all I care)

Anywho, Sand Veil is sort of a "deal with it" thing and it most likely always will be. Even when Rough Skin and all other DW abilities get released, banning Sand Veil would ban 4th gen moves those Pokemon may need to use. And by "moves" I mean Stealth Rock really...and Focus Punch if you're Cacturne.

Point is, banning abilities like that is not going to happen. Swift Swim thing was pushing it too far as it is. People would argue Shadow Tag as well, but look it. In DW Chandelure is amazing with it, but Wobbuffet is UU in the current BW metagame...Gothitelle is scarcely even worth a mention.


As for Garchomp vs Haxorus, Garchomp wins. Even Dual Chop + Scarf still is only breaking his sub and doing maybe 50% to Chomp.

When making a team, Garchomp is mostly better. But Haxorus has the benefit of scaring the crap out of Sun teams (and rain but less so) since he actually resists Grass (and Water). Garchomp is OHKO'd by Modest Lilligant, Exeggutor, & Tangrowth's Leaf Storm. Food for thought there.

 

[alexwolf]

Double team and minimize are banned becuase they where annoying as fuck, as with Shaymin, the way they played lead to an undesirable metagame, that no one wanted to play in, and in there good opinion, we banned them. Now, sand veil is neither anywhere near as annoying as that, and its not broken, now if sand viel breaks a certain pokemon then you ban that pokemon, any only a pokemon is even close to that.

these moves were banned because they made the game more luck based.ıts completely dıfferent from skaymın.skaymın was banned because he was broken.double team was banned for the above reason.
sand veıl grands you one free double team wıthout even spendıng the turn to use ıt.ıt does the same as double team except from the fact that ıt requıres some specıfıc cırcumstances.and no double team ıs no dıfferent because ıt ıs stackable.any good player knows that these moves are worth usıng only once.after the fırst use you are just askıng from the opponent to kıll you whıle you are hopıng for a mıss to happen and the odds are agaınst you.agaın ı dont want sand veıl banned because ıt breaks a pokemon but because ıt creates unecessary luck to the metagame...not ın just 1 pokemon.

First off, sandslash is a terrible example, defensively I don't think in any teir anywhere, has sand veil hax with sandslash even cost them a game.

yes that why ı formed a hypothetıcal scenarıo.ıf someone for some reason decıdes to use sandslash and some unfortnate hax happens the game can very well be lost,not solely because of sandslash but hıs help maybe was the maın factor that led to then wın(the spın block for example or the mıss as sandskalsh kılls hıs maın counter).ıf such a scenarıo happens the player who lost,wıll have lost very unfairly due to the extra luck that sand veil introduced to the game.and ı used such a crappy pokemon to show that ıt doesnt matter how good ıs the pokemon....

A good player will never win against a worse player 99.9% of the time, thats unrealistic, a simple critical hit hax, or a miss with fire blast can cause a loss of a game. Heck even the off chance that you won't get that 1HKO 4% of the time, might be your demise. And even outside of hax a worse player can win though odd move predictions and playstyle, and a random team that happens to beat the better player, even though overall the team is bad. At best you can say a better player will win 70%-80% of the time. The metagame does not exist to bring the best players to the top as its first goal, its made for the enjoyment and sport of the game. If you truely want to prove you are the best, overall, even with hax, you will win more then not.

when i said good and bad player i meant very good and very bad player(imagine the good player having a rating of 1400 and the bad having a rating of 1050).so yes in this case the good player will win at least 90% or 95% of the time(i exaggerated a little before).and finally i don't feel like arguing about the purpose of the metagame right now,as it is something not so relevant and can lead this discussion to further disorder...

All I have to say to this is Garchomp is the only major sand viel pokemon out there in OU, thats even less then those 7 ice beamers. Thats even less of a hax chance as far as a metagame goes, and again, that is a pokemon.

first of all the hax of ice beam is a necessary evil as there is no way to change it other than messing with the game mechanics.in the other hand sand veil can be taken care of with a ban.
this is the thing that matters.there is already enough luck and hax to our game.why let sand veil increase further the hax(however small or big that hax might be its still hax)in our game.we have the capability to remove this small hax.why not?

Again, what about my flash and sand attack example? No one uses sand attack, but it is a choice that the opposing play makes, that effects the other persons chance of hitting, and certainly using sand attack isn't competitive, so why not ban that to under that logic? The fact is, it isn't, you don't go banning things, that have no place in being banned, banning Luvdisc+drizzle far far enough, we don't need all sorts of absurd combo bans running around, for even less of a problem.

as i said to you before(but you ignored it)these moves are easy to counter.you just switch out for god's sake...sand veil in the other way doesn't have any counters except from switching the weather(which is not the easiest thing to do with sandstorm being the most dominant weather...)

Double team makes every single pokemon that has it an annoyance, which is every pokemon in the game that can learn TMs. Surely you aren't comparing this to the few dozen pokemon with sand veil and snow cloak? And once again, it causes problems in all tiers, in every metagame. Sand veil isn't a problem in UU, neither is snow cloak. They aren't problem in Ubers either. Nor will they be in NU either, when it comes out. So what pokemon comes to be a problem here? Once again, a pokemon in OU, Garchomp, that it.

again how can every poke abuse double team?can every poke gain one free turn?can every poke gain few turns in order to be an annoyance('cause a poke at 80% evasion is not such an annoyance when it spends one turn to gain this benefit)?and if you have forgoten every pokemon with multiple boosts is an annoyance...sand veil and snow cloak give the evasion without the need to force any switch...and after all both double team and sand veil add extra unecessary hax to the game and make it less skill based!that's why they are uncompetitive!

 

[Thorhammer]

Sandstorm + sandveil wont work
since t tar and hippodown are on the top of the usage stats
i guess it could be blamed on the player for running t tar or hippodown
but that player will still scream hax when a attack misses

Evasion is a problem because it, unlike other hax, is (generally) unavoidable. If it's caused by your own team, it's avoidable, and therefore not a concern.

3rd Gen Sandslash for Ubers anyone?

But seriously, how hard is it to understand that:

-If you ban Garchomp, Garchomp is banned.
-If you ban Sand Veil, Garchomp is banned (for who knows how long), along with a few others.

Same result either way, but a Sand Veil ban would have bigger (and possibly permanent, since GF is stupid) costs.

And I don't see how people who want to do away with Aldaron's proposal can support a ban of similar characteristics.

It's been established that a simple Sand Veil ban would be foolish. There's no reason to keep arguing it.

The reason I oppose the existing ban of Swift Swim + Drizzle and advocate a ban of Sand Veil + Sand Stream is simple: It is my stance that a ban on an ability or ability combination should be made if and only if the reason the ability or ability combination is being banned is inherent to all Pokemon with the ability, and all other known Pokemon if they were to have the ability. The only exceptions are if the Pokemon is so far below the standard that it lacks characteristics shared by 95% of all Pokemon, including NFEs. This, I have found, seems to be the best gauge for whether or not to bother considering a Pokemon.

The ban on Swift Swim + Drizzle existed to remove brokenness. Even ignoring Magikarp, not all of the Pokemon with the ability combination were broken, and therefore I am opposed to the ban. This proposed ban on Sand Veil + Sand Stream exists to remove uncompetitiveness. All Pokemon with the ability
combination are uncompetitive, and therefore I am in favor of the ban. Even Cacnea is uncompetitive when it is alongside Tyranitar.

I completely agree with this post. People are taking the "Evasion Clause" way too far. The Brightpowder / Lax Incense ban was already pushing it. Fine, it's "uncompetitive" for a normally 100% accuracy move to miss. But is it actually worth messing with illegalities and even banning entire Pokémon for the sake of expanding the "Evasion Clause"?

A ban of Sand Veil + Sand Stream would not ban any Pokemon whatsoever.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

A ban of Sand Veil + Sand Stream would not ban any Pokemon whatsoever.

Cacturne and Sandslash in ADV and also Garchomp in DPPt, if they are in a team with Tyranitar (which means a pokémon+pokémon ban). Unless, of course, you take the Evasion part out of the equation and make an argument about Sand Veil under Sand being broken or "uncompetitive" for other reasons not related to the Clause.

 

[iDunno]

Why can't we just ban things that are broken and not ban things that are "uncompetitive" as people so call them. Seriously its bullshit to say that something is uncompetitive when it's unreliable as shit.

Even Cacnea is uncompetitive when it is alongside Tyranitar.

Why are people taking the people that say these kinds of things seriously?

 

[Blackdragonking]

As for Garchomp vs Haxorus, Garchomp wins. Even Dual Chop + Scarf still is only breaking his sub and doing maybe 50% to Chomp.

When making a team, Garchomp is mostly better. But Haxorus has the benefit of scaring the crap out of Sun teams (and rain but less so) since he actually resists Grass (and Water). Garchomp is OHKO'd by Modest Lilligant, Exeggutor, & Tangrowth's Leaf Storm. Food for thought there.

You got a point that Haxorus will lose if Garchomp's got a sub up when it hits the field, but I would like to point out that if Garchomp loses its sub, the 25% of its health it put into that sub, and the 50% of its health that was supposed to power two more subs, doesn't that count as an accomplishment since Garchomp is now in easy KO territory and can't sub up anymore?

If it seems like I'm unreasonably harping on about Haxorus, it's because I am. I overreact a little to how little people think of it, I guess. :/

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

What if Haxorus was on a Trick Room team and held the item Iron Ball? It's like a Choice Scarf in Trick Room. Would it be good then?

 

[iDunno]

No; CB/LO Garchomp takes less effort to use and packs nearly the same power

 

[Virizion]

If Haxorous wasn't always totally outclass by every single thing then maybe more people would use and abuse it, unless the goal is to use obsolete and disadvantaged Pokes.


Guess not.

It's not outclassed by everything; just a few other Dragons (Chomp, Mence, maybe Nite) - but that's probably what you meant anyways.

Also, Torchic, that's incredibly situational.

 

[StarmanXL]

What if Haxorus was on a Trick Room team and held the item Iron Ball? It's like a Choice Scarf in Trick Room. Would it be good then?

Then you'd use that slow-ass dragon (seriously) or Eelektross or fucking Escavalier or something that's naturally slow and doesn't have to gimp itself on its item to be effective in TR.

Although I will admit there aren't a lot of things I'd like to switch into a Haxorus.

 

[Gerard]

Stop pretending there's a problem besides Garchomp. There isn't. I still don't see why we don't just ****ing ban Garchomp besides the same people who complain about how hax his Sand Veil abusing set is claiming he's not broken at all. Blaze Blaziken's not broken at all, but Blaziken was banned, not Speed Boost Blaziken. Speed Boost Blaziken was banned, not Speed Boost Sharpedo and Speed Boost Ninjask along with it. There's a fair amount of precedent here that would support just bringing down Chomp.

I had a problem with cacturne and i couldn't care less about Garchomp since i don't play OU, i had a problem with it subing until an attack failed and then SD, or plain SD and your attack failing (many times an attack that would be a clean OHKO), and what sand team on UU doesn't pack SR hippo (so scy is't a great counter), i had a problem with the 28% of failing a 100 acc move (altough now is 20% max) and i had to use, altough this is OU, a ban like that affects all gens (and all metas) at the point of banning some pokes and soft banning many others

 

[Arc Tech]

What if Haxorus was on a Trick Room team and held the item Iron Ball? It's like a Choice Scarf in Trick Room. Would it be good then?

Nope. Outclassed by Zweilous- hustle, lower base speed (58), fire fang. Lacks EQ though.

 

[Thorhammer]

Cacturne and Sandslash in ADV and also Garchomp in DPPt, if they are in a team with Tyranitar (which means a pokémon+pokémon ban). Unless, of course, you take the Evasion part out of the equation and make an argument about Sand Veil under Sand being broken or "uncompetitive" for other reasons not related to the Clause.

It would result in a Pokemon + Pokemon ban, but that wouldn't hurt anything. The only thing that would hurt any metagame is something that would result in entire Pokemon being banned, which is clearly not happening here. It's also what we were talking about in the first place, so the Pokemon + Pokemon ban is completely irrelevant.

Why can't we just ban things that are broken and not ban things that are "uncompetitive" as people so call them. Seriously its bullshit to say that something is uncompetitive when it's unreliable as shit.

Why are people taking the people that say these kinds of things seriously?

Unreliability and uncompetitiveness are intrinsically linked. Luck goes against strategy and therefore competitiveness, which is why forced luck - evasion and OHKOes - are uncompetitive and banned. Do you seriously think the metagame would be improved by allowing Evasion and OHKOes?

Now, the thing about uncompetitiveness is that it's not dependent on what can happen as a result of it. That's why Double Team, Brightpowder, and Lax Incense, usable on all Pokemon and certainly not competitively relevant on all of them, were banned from all Pokemon, not just the ones that could abuse it well. Hell, nothing can use Lax Incense well. That's why it doesn't make the slightest difference whether the Sand Veil user is Garchomp or Cacnea. All that matters is the Evasion, and it is equal no matter what Pokemon has it.

 

[Blackdragonking]

If Haxorous wasn't always totally outclass by every single thing then maybe more people would use and abuse it, unless the goal is to use obsolete and disadvantaged Pokes.

Guess not.

If by "every single thing" you mean "two dragons, one of whom flirts with the banlist like the worst kind of ex-girlfriend", sure, let's go with that. Last I checked there's only one dragon that one-shots Dragonite with Multiscale up, and it wasn't Garchomp or Salamence.

Gerard, I really don't see how you have so much trouble with Cacturne if you encountered it more than a couple of times. Cacturne's about as powerful as the player using it is good at predicting, but it's slow, it's frail, and its typing has a lot of weaknesses. Do you seriously mean to say that you've gotten SWEPT by Cacturne, or just that it gave you problems in UU play? Because I tended to find if something was giving me that much trouble, I'd take advantage of the crappy-ass setter they need to use for sandstorm to spin away the rocks and slaughter that thing. It's even worse now in UU play because things like Weavile are down there; compared to Garchomp, Cacturne's a sitting duck.

 

[Arc Tech]

If by "every single thing" you mean "two dragons, one of whom flirts with the banlist like the worst kind of ex-girlfriend", sure, let's go with that. Last I checked there's only one dragon that one-shots Dragonite with Multiscale up, and it wasn't Garchomp or Salamence.

What's Latios got to do with this?

Face it, he's outclassed by something in every niche. He should quite simply not be OU. Whatever he can do, another dragon can do and more.

Whether the others are suspect are not is irrelevant, until and if they are banned.

 

[Downf4ll]

The main problem with sand veil, which has been pointed out many times, is that it brings unecessary luck into the game. What alexwolf and Thorhammer are getting at is that the sole thing that is brought into the metagame by Sand Veil and Snow Cloak is luck.

Do you use Ice Beam because it freezes? Do you use Stone Edge because you land more crits? Is Thunderbolt a good move because it paralyzes? The answer to all of those questions would be no (to most people, hopefully).

Things like Brightpowder, Lax Incense (lol) and yes, Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, is the definition of uncompetitive because you are relying on luck. That is all that the word means.

Now, whether pokes like Garchomp, Frosslass, etc. are broken is a different matter. The bottom line is, people want to ban these abilities because they think they're unfair.

Not totally banned though, I think a SV+SS ban and a SC+SW ban would suffice, so you could actually use these pokemon outside of their weather (read: Garchomp).

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

If you go by the total doctrine of baning all evasion, we might as well bas accupressure, as it has a small chance to increase evasion. No, thats unacceptable. You don't go banning things in the name of some doctrine, thats flat out ridiculus. Especially when it only breaks pokemon that are really offensive, to be honest, you might as well ban swords dance or dragon dance since it has the capability to break as many pokemon as sand veil and snow cloak. Double team and 1HKO moves a banned for one reason, its not uncompetitiveness, thats something made up recently to justify it with false logic. The truth is they found it annoying, and it created an undesirable metagame everywhere, and they just didn't want it. Go on PBR, and you will quickly find double team is just as competitive as any other boosting move, but you know what? I dont want every single match of mine to be an hour long stall war, and I don't want some of my pokemon randomly killed on the spot. But with sand veil, I might occasionally miss, and lose a game to Garchomp becuase of its offensive power, is that sand viels fault? Partailly, but not all the way, its sand veil in combination with Garchomp, those 2 together make it possibly broken at best.