np: ORAS UU Stage 7 - Turn It Out

[Cheryl.]

Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Ice

I think offensive or Nasty Plot Celebi sets are gonna be quite good, as they have much higher offensive presence than the defensive sets, and Nasty Plot variants make for good sweepers as well. This is the moveset I'd personally use for NP Celebi, with Giga Drain being a decently strong STAB that heals you up, Earth Power hitting Fire and Steel-types not named Escavalier or Bronzong, and Hidden Power Ice providing nice coverage against Dragon-types (Mainly Hydreigon, who Celebi outspeeds if it isn't Scarf and can OHKO it after SR at +2), and opposing Grass-types (Such as other Celebi). Other options include Hidden Power Fire over Earth Power exclusively for Escavalier and Bronzong, but misses out on using HP Ice, which sort of blows. Psychic can also be used to hit Fighting-types and have good neutral coverage overall, but it still leaves Celebi walled by Hydreigon if you use it over HP Ice. Overall I think Celebi is the best of these new drops, as it's stupidly versatile, checks a lot of mons with it's unique typing (Nobody uses Exeggutor), and is just a really amazing mon in general.

 

[Kink]

fun fact of the day: Hyper Beam on Sylveon OHKOS Support Bat after Rocks.

 

[Highways]

Wow, Qwillfish will be a LOT better, it's matchup versus Non-Giga Drain Celebi and Conkeldurr is really surprising, and now that Zap is gone, Qwillfish will shine :D

 

[Shadestep]

Wow, Qwillfish will be a LOT better, it's matchup versus Non-Giga Drain Celebi and Conkeldurr is really surprising, and now that Zap is gone, Qwillfish will shine :D

What do you mean with this? I mean.. except for SD pass, don't all Celebi run either Psychic or Earth Power to get past Poison-types?

e: ah, figured

 

[Highways]

What do you mean with this? I mean.. except for SD pass, don't all Celebi run either Psychic or Earth Power to get past Poison-types?

LOL I meant Non-Psychic/Earth Power, lol.

 

[esche]

Celebi @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Ice

I think offensive or Nasty Plot Celebi sets are gonna be quite good, as they have much higher offensive presence than the defensive sets, and Nasty Plot variants make for good sweepers as well. This is the moveset I'd personally use for NP Celebi, with Giga Drain being a decently strong STAB that heals you up, Earth Power hitting Fire and Steel-types not named Escavalier or Bronzong, and Hidden Power Ice providing nice coverage against Dragon-types (Mainly Hydreigon, who Celebi outspeeds if it isn't Scarf and can OHKO it after SR at +2), and opposing Grass-types (Such as other Celebi). Other options include Hidden Power Fire over Earth Power exclusively for Escavalier and Bronzong, but misses out on using HP Ice, which sort of blows. Psychic can also be used to hit Fighting-types and have good neutral coverage overall, but it still leaves Celebi walled by Hydreigon if you use it over HP Ice. Overall I think Celebi is the best of these new drops, as it's stupidly versatile, checks a lot of mons with it's unique typing (Nobody uses Exeggutor), and is just a really amazing mon in general.

Personally, I would go with Dazzling Gleam > HP Ice. Dazzling Gleam takes better care of Dragons (Salamence, Hydreigon, Kyurem[!]), Dark types (Mandibuzz, Umbreon) and makes up for the lack of super effective hits versus Fighting types since you forgoing Psychic STAB. However, this leaves Celebi with no option to damage Crobat.

 

[Ramses]

Sylveon @ Pixie Plate / Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Heal Bell
- Baton Pass / Yawn / Psyshock

This is the Sylveon set I've been using and I have to say, it's actually pretty good. It takes a different approach from the hyped up Specs set, where it takes a more supportive role while still being a powerful breaker. I formulated this set while building a team where I needed a preferably offensive check to Hydreigon, Sableye, and Salamence, but Whimsicott just wouldn't fit (which usually happens if you have a Grass-type already). So I decided to jump on the hype train and use Sylveon which equated to this set. Hyper Voice is its most powerful STAB, HP Fire is useful for eliminating Forretress / Escavalier, the latter of which is really good right now. Heal Bell is a nice perk, especially on bulky offense teams where status is usually an issue. The last slot is pretty much open for grabs, but Baton Pass is really useful for gaining momentum while Yawn forces switches and Psyshock is Psyshock. I don't really like it since eventually Nidoqueen / Tenta / etc. get whittled down so much and so fast that Baton Pass is just so much more helpful. Pixie Plate is pretty cool since it still boosts Hyper Voice, but Lefties help you not get too worn down from switching into stray EQs, Dark Pulses, Fire Blasts, and burns (Sab). Pretty team dependent, but Lefties is what'd I usually go with since its so strong already. As for the EVs they're ripped straight from EonX's bar the EVs placed in HP instead. 128 Defense EVs is fine too imo, since you're guaranteed to survive an unboosted Iron Tail from Salamence if it's not holding a Life Orb and Stealth Rock and generally tank physical attacks better. Cool set, you should try it.

 

[Threw]

People really need to chill with the Escav hype. Not saying it's not gotten better, but we seem to be forgetting that Sylveon has two more move slots and HP Fire is absolutely filling one of them. Even if you switch into a Specs-locked Hyper Voice, you're getting 2HKOed after rocks, and if you come in for free, it's getting a free switch out because Pursuit does a clean 0. Numbers improve if you stuff Escav into a Vest, but that's a subpar option for a number of reasons. Not a fan of any 3 Attacks NP Celebi either, I think any NP set would just be something along the lines of max HP max Speed and would definitely have BP, which conveniently avoids Pursuit, meaning Celebi gets an even more free switch out than Escav does and brings a +2 boost with it. That said, I'd consider running Pursuit on Mega Bee, since you outspeed Celebi, forcing it to hard switch out rather than use BP.

 

[Cactrune]

Flying Spam is about to get a whole lot better. Fletchinder, Choice Band Crobat, Yanmega, and others can take advantage of Conkeldurr, Celebi, and (the first two) Sylveon pretty well. RIP to Big Boid too, Zapdos being gone is a huge game-changer in the rise of Flying-types.

 

[ProfessorMasterChief]

Celebi is going to be a huge asset to every archetype. Its versatility is amazing, being able to run offensive, support, pivot, and even wall. I think baton pass will be very good, as Celebi has great stats across the board to put it to good use, and it can still use the boosts it gains to punch holes in teams or even sweep. I can easily see myself using it as a glue for many teams.

Conkeldurr is a very difficult Pokemon to switch into. Its coverage is amazing, and it can pick and choose its counters with ease. I think life orb sheer force will be the best set imo due to its absurd power. Of course, it is slow as molasses, which is what will keep it from being broken imo.

I haven't gotten the chance to use Sylveon, but I'm excited to, as its specs set is absolutely disgusting, and it's cleric set is an upgrade over Florges. Again, like Conk, I think it's speed will keep it from being broken, although its bulk is pretty good on the special side.

 

[Bortortle]

Does anyone else think Moltres is going to get better?

Moltres @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body/Pressure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Fire Blast
- Hurricane
- Hidden Power Grass
- Roost

As far as checks and counters with the tier shift; zap is gone so one less volt-turner, Celebi goes down 1v1, conk goes down 1v1, and it resists Sylveon's STAB.
Some calcs:

Vs Conkeldurr, even the AV set goes down

252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Conkeldurr: 647-764 (178.2 - 210.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 320-377 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO; 81% with SR

Vs Celebi

252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Celebi: 359-424 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
And max HP/SpD isn't even a real Celebi set (or at least it shouldn't be)

Vs Sylveon

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 160-189 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Luckily we have roost, and it can easily be pressure stalled while Sylv is locked in. It doesn't have anything else to reliably 2hko.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 139-164 (43.3 - 51%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO

It lacks good priority, but in many cases it can withstand and hit back

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 260-307 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 268-317 (100 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Flame body might be the better ability here, but pressure is probably more overall useful compared to situational usefulness.

Common counter arguments:
Stealth rock- I know it has the 4x SR weakness, but that doesn't stop charizard from being OU (the megas, i know). A little hazard control in the form of tentacruel or empoleon can go a long way. Heck, even something like a magic bouncing lead in choice + trick espeon could be a good partner, or a personal favorite, magic coat/lunar dance/ Twave/ Filler Cresselia, but that's another argument in itself.
Accuracy- Yes, fire blast is 85 and hurricane is 70, but that's part of the game, how many Torns run hurricane? how many Zams and hoopas run focus blast? I lost a battle yesterday missing 3 consecutive HJK's with a Mienshao, RNGesus isn't an effective argument.
4 Move slot syndrome- IMO, the most overrated criticism of a mon. I can name a dozen mons in every tier where as soon as you see them you know their sets.
BL2 ranking- I am not saying it should shoot to A+ and UU status overnight, and besides that's for the viability thread, i wouldn't honestly know where to place it right now. I just think it does deserve some recognition in this new meta and hope you all agree or have opinions on this as well.

 

[Sun]

I honestly think that after the ban of Zapdos, now pokemon such as gyarados and Crawdaunt become more popular, talking about Gyara, now that is expected to become more common, Moltres will become even less, Moltres in uu almost it never has had a huge impact on metagame because it is populated by bulky waters, now that a main check for these bulky waters is banned, the fire types like Moltres, Entei will have a lot of pressure in the game.

 

[Morsel]

I'm really glad these Pokemon fell from OU, they were mostly outclassed -- Cleftable mostly outclassed Sylveon and Conkeldurr was outclassed by other fighting types in the tier (Ex. Breloom: Higher speed, spore, and more damage output), and its only niche was being able to absorb status with guts.

Anyways, I've been using specs Sylveon, and it has been working very well so far. It 2HKOs most of the tier with hyper voice -- especially notable defensive Pokemon such as Suicune, Forretress, Donphan and Colballion. Furthermore, it has numerous switch in opportunities due to its excellent special bulk, being able to switch into the likes oh Hydreigon, Suicune, Shaymin, Florges and other prominent special attackers. This is the set I've been running:

Sylveon @ Choice Specs.
Ability: Pixilate.
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Speed.
Modest Nature.
IVs: 0 Atk.
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock


88 speed EVs outpaces most AV Metagross variants, and allows it to speed creep other sylveon and other defensive Pokemon. Shadow ball is relevant, as it hits Metagross harder, and honestly, Hyper Voice 2HKOs coballion and Forretress anyways, so I really don't see a point in running HP Fire. Psyshock is useful for hitting Roserade, Nidoqueen and Nidoking on the switch, and baton pass is for momentum.

Looking at Conkeldurr, I feel that it isn't as powerful as Sylveon due to its turtle-like speed, which somewhat forces it to run 252 speed to outpace defensive Pokemon, such as Florges, which in turn sacrifices its bulk. I haven't used Conkeldurr much so far, but I feel that it'll be similar to Crawdaunt -- very hard to switch into due to its sheer power and coverage, but is easily worn down (especially AV guts variants) and can be dead weight against offensive teams due to its terrible speed. I can't really comment further on Conkeldurr as I have not tested him much. I also won't talk about Celebi much because I have not tested it out yet.

Looking at how the metagame could change, I feel that Pokemon such as Metagross have the potential to rise -- especially AV variants. It can take any hit and threaten both Sylveon and Conkeldurr out, or proceed to do heavy damage with bullet punch or zen headbutt respectively. In addition, Zapdos -- an excellent check to Metagross if physically defensive -- is gone, making Metagross harder to check offensively.

Relevant calcs (Sylveon vs. Metagross):
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 140-166 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.

196+ Atk Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Metagross can also check Conkeldurr when healthy and outspeed it and do heavy damage with zen headbutt, while Conkeldurr will only do ~35% with drain punch. I feel that due to the prominence of Sylveon, most Conkeldurrs will run poison jab instead of knock off, making Metagross a decent check.

Relevant calcs (Metagross vs. Conkeldurr):

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 114-135 (31.3 - 37%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO.

196+ Atk Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 296-350 (71.4 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I've been running a 252 HP / 196 attack / 56 speed AV Metagross, which has served well in terms of checking Sylveon and Conk. 56 speed EVs outpace max speed Conkedlurr (adamant), and the lost attack isn't too significant, as it already 2HKOs conk with zen headbutt and OHKOs Sylveon with meteor mash. I feel that this set could potentially push Metagross up in terms of viability, but only time will tell . Moving back to what I think could happen to the viability of certain Pokemon, I feel that Espeon is going to drop significantly due to the prominence of Celebi and Sylveon (Sylveon and Celebi is better offensively and defensively). I also feel that Hydriegon has the potential to suffer, as it now has a complete counter instead of the shaky checks it had before.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the recent tier shifts. Thanks for reading.

 

[Schpoonman]

Sylveon doesn't COMPLETELY counter Hydreigon. Sylveon's reduced special bulk compared to Florges is significant enough that LO Flash Cannon now reliably 3HKOs with hazards. Probably not an issue for the Cleric set, but it does put significant pressure on Specs, which I'm confident will be Sylveon's flagship set. It can also still run Iron Tail, but I'm unsure whether or not it 2HKOs PDef Sylveon.

 

[Nightingales]

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 278-328 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So with good predicts, that's not switching in.

 

[Shadestep]

It can also still run Iron Tail, but I'm unsure whether or not it 2HKOs PDef Sylveon.

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 185-218 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
it has a chance to, but it's very small, without hazards up. The odds of hitting two Iron Tails are also not in your favor (49 % chance to hit two, technically). Although some people probably will start running this over Taunt, I don't think it will be very common as it's highly unreliable and doesn't hit much else, outside of non-Bold Florges and Sylveon.

 

[Nightingales]

I didn't even notice I didn't put up the pdef set. Whoops.

Also, I can see specs Flash Cannon coming in to save the day, assuming offensive specs Sylveon (0/0)

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 204-240 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Ramses]

Yeah, even with Florges and Whimsicott running around Taunt has always been a strong option despite their presence. The thing is hitting (Defensive) Sylveon with a Taunt on the switch-in is somewhat as effective as actually hitting it with Iron Tail since you negate it's best method of recovery and basically force it out since you'll more than likely send in a check to Sylveon next.

Specs Hydreigon isn't very good imo since being locked in it's STABs or coverage moves, especially in UU, is just terrible. You're missing out on Taunt, Roost, Thunder Wave (v v niche option), etc just to break past a check or two. Being locked into Flash Cannon, Dark Pulse, Draco Meteor, or Fire Blast just leaves you open to being taken advantage of so many things.

 

[SPEBSQSA]

Pretty sure the big winners from this drop are Crobat (esp CB) and Mega Beedrill. Volt-turn likes this new meta, especially u-turn mons with poison attacks.

Galv should also see a good bit of play in conjunction with the new mons because Conk and Slyveon appreciate some help in the speed department. Time to hit the Speed Tier thread and see what creeps I should run to beat some common bulky threats at -1.

 

[DoesntKnowHowToPlay]

the biggest winner is maero tbh

pursuit-traps celebi, aces conk, whacks sylveon, and pursuits those nerdy crobats and mbees who think it's their lucky day

 

[Kink]

Sylveon doesn't COMPLETELY counter Hydreigon. Sylveon's reduced special bulk compared to Florges is significant enough that LO Flash Cannon now reliably 3HKOs with hazards. Probably not an issue for the Cleric set, but it does put significant pressure on Specs, which I'm confident will be Sylveon's flagship set. It can also still run Iron Tail, but I'm unsure whether or not it 2HKOs PDef Sylveon.

Queston: and I mean no disrespect, but what does "reliably 3HKO" mean..? How is a 3HKO reliable.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Queston: and I mean no disrespect, but what does "reliably 3HKO" mean..? How is a 3HKO reliable.

I think he means it's a guaranteed 3HKO as opposed to something like "52.3% chance to 3HKO". No need to get caught up in semantics.

 

[Schpoonman]

Queston: and I mean no disrespect, but what does "reliably 3HKO" mean..? How is a 3HKO reliable.

Well, I was gonna say close to a guaranteed 3HKO after Lefties and Rocks (70+ percent on Showdown's calc or something like that), but apparently it just straight-up is a guaranteed 2HKO if Sylveon isn't running special bulk.

E(aglehawk)DIT: Yeah, something like that. I've seen the phrase used before and just extrapolated from there.

 

[Kink]

2HKO is very different than three, and it's a lot more relevant than semantics lol

 

[Schpoonman]

Well, I don't know if my somewhat muddled language even matters now because the point I was trying to make (Sylveon's worse special bulk means it is not a perfect counter to Hydreigon) stands even stronger. I wrote that post up over lunch using apparently dated knowledge, from when SpDef Florges was more popular and Flash Cannon against it failed to 3HKO more often than not. I can go back and edit the post if you want, but this entire tangent seems pretty unnecessary at this point.