np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257

[MegaMasher]

Let me just put into perspective how, in my opinion (I respect the input of everyone as everyone has a SOLID ROCK right to an opinion!), Mega Pidgeot isn't THAT broken or even over-centralizing in UU!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 63-75 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO Yum!
28 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 288-338 (93.5 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO BOP!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 63-75 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery Tasty!
0 SpA Rotom-H Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 188-224 (61 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Could be trouble!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO This is not even a bulky mon, let's go!
212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 432-510 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO RIP!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 76-90 (20.4 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery Bulking all day long!
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 114-135 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO + the ability to phaze out...yeah lol

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 114-135 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO even without HP or SPDef investment!
252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 196-232 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Yeah...lol

I know I'm probably going to get replies saying that hurricane causes confusion 30% of the time and that it's luck based and can be abused and this and that! Here's the thing..you have moves like Body Slam, sludge bomb, scald, lava plume (there may be more moves I missed that has a 30% chance to cause something) that has a higher than average chance to hax someone, but that's 70% of the time that it won't work. Even if it happens everytime, that's just part of the game. Anything can happen, not just because you use Mega Pidgeot. Also, a nugget of info, No Guard works for everyone involved on the field! Sure hurricane can't miss with no guard, but that means your opponents attacks will land without fail as well. Keep that in mind as well as some calcs that are shown here! Calcs don't lie friends :]

 

[Nightingales]

They also are subjective. When only a few mons can counter it, I think there's an issue.

 

[Adaam]

Let me just put into perspective how, in my opinion (I respect the input of everyone as everyone has a SOLID ROCK right to an opinion!), Mega Pidgeot isn't THAT broken or even over-centralizing in UU!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 63-75 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO Yum!
28 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 288-338 (93.5 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO BOP!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 63-75 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery Tasty!
0 SpA Rotom-H Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 188-224 (61 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Could be trouble!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO This is not even a bulky mon, let's go!
212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 432-510 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO RIP!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 76-90 (20.4 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery Bulking all day long!
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 114-135 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO + the ability to phaze out...yeah lol

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 114-135 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO even without HP or SPDef investment!
252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 196-232 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Yeah...lol

I know I'm probably going to get replies saying that hurricane causes confusion 30% of the time and that it's luck based and can be abused and this and that! Here's the thing..you have moves like Body Slam, sludge bomb, scald, lava plume (there may be more moves I missed that has a 30% chance to cause something) that has a higher than average chance to hax someone, but that's 70% of the time that it won't work. Even if it happens everytime, that's just part of the game. Anything can happen, not just because you use Mega Pidgeot. Also, a nugget of info, No Guard works for everyone involved on the field! Sure hurricane can't miss with no guard, but that means your opponents attacks will land without fail as well. Keep that in mind as well as some calcs that are shown here! Calcs don't lie friends :]

Calcs don't lie when they're cherry picked :/. Nobody runs SpD Amphy, SpD Rotom H or AV Lax and if you are resorting to less viable sets like those then you should agree that Pidgeot is broken. We already know that these mons are checks to it but there is no need to manipulate them to benefit your point.

 

[YABO]

Calcs don't lie when they're cherry picked :/. Nobody runs SpD Amphy, SpD Rotom H or AV Lax and if you are resorting to less viable sets like those then you should agree that Pidgeot is broken. We already know that these mons are checks to it but there is no need to manipulate them to benefit your point.

Not trying to hate on your post but the purpose of a metagame is to evolve and adapt. At certain times, certain sets should be better than others to deal with whatever is the top dog at the time. As time passes and things change then top sets can change again. It's kind of strange to put a subjective tag on what set should be the best set in any particular metagame when the very idea of a metagame involves customizing to best deal with the situation you're presented with.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'll let Hikari talk about SpDef Rotom-H, that's his thing, but AV Lax was once popular as a bulky special wall that also hit hard. It's not super tough to pass it Wish support and have a cleric.

 

[Tymano]

This does not pertain to Pidgeot, but are we going to free Venomoth based on the new BP clause of that you cannot pass both a speed boost and any other stat boost, meaning that venomoth can not run quiverpass. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tegies-baton-pass.3537569/page-7#post-6310940

 

[Adaam]

Not trying to hate on your post but the purpose of a metagame is to evolve and adapt. At certain times, certain sets should be better than others to deal with whatever is the top dog at the time. As time passes and things change then top sets can change again. It's kind of strange to put a subjective tag on what set should be the best set in any particular metagame when the very idea of a metagame involves customizing to best deal with the situation you're presented with.

Yes you adapt to the metagame, you shouldn't create obscure sets like Specially Defensive Ampharos to specifically handle one threat and one threat only (isn't that over centralization?). And yes some sets aren't "better" than others but some are. In this case, CurseLax is much better than AV Lax, and it even is better at checking Pidgeot since it isn't so easy to wear down without Lefties and Rest. The only reason to use AV Lax in the calc he used was to manipulate to prove his point. Now I am not saying Pidgeot is over centralizing, my original post was in response to the guy posting calcs of "counters" that are rarely seen.

 

[Christo]

Let me just put into perspective how, in my opinion (I respect the input of everyone as everyone has a SOLID ROCK right to an opinion!), Mega Pidgeot isn't THAT broken or even over-centralizing in UU!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 63-75 (16.4 - 19.5%) -- possible 6HKO Yum!
28 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 288-338 (93.5 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO BOP!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-H: 63-75 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery Tasty!
0 SpA Rotom-H Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 188-224 (61 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Could be trouble!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO This is not even a bulky mon, let's go!
212+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 432-510 (140.2 - 165.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO RIP!

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 76-90 (20.4 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery Bulking all day long!
0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 114-135 (37 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO + the ability to phaze out...yeah lol

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 114-135 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO even without HP or SPDef investment!
252+ Atk Snorlax Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 196-232 (63.6 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Yeah...lol

I know I'm probably going to get replies saying that hurricane causes confusion 30% of the time and that it's luck based and can be abused and this and that! Here's the thing..you have moves like Body Slam, sludge bomb, scald, lava plume (there may be more moves I missed that has a 30% chance to cause something) that has a higher than average chance to hax someone, but that's 70% of the time that it won't work. Even if it happens everytime, that's just part of the game. Anything can happen, not just because you use Mega Pidgeot. Also, a nugget of info, No Guard works for everyone involved on the field! Sure hurricane can't miss with no guard, but that means your opponents attacks will land without fail as well. Keep that in mind as well as some calcs that are shown here! Calcs don't lie friends :]

Right off the bat I am questioned about how experienced you are with UU. Max Spdef Amph is not a set, and shouldn't be a set. If this was a set someone would run to stop a Pidgeot, that just shows how centralizing it is. It is kind of obvious to see your thought process when making this post. "Hmm I want Pidgeot to stay UU so I am going to find calcs that show how Pidgeot can be stopped! Let me go through the team builder and find flying resists and give them max Special Defense!" You can "wall" any pokemon by finding a pokemon that resist their stab and max out the defense. The same goes for Rotom H. Assualt Vest Snorlax wouldnt even handle a Pidgeot that well due to how quickly it would get widdled with taking a Hurricane + Stealth Rock damage.

 

[YABO]

Yes you adapt to the metagame, you shouldn't create obscure sets like Specially Defensive Ampharos to specifically handle one threat and one threat only (isn't that over centralization?). And yes some sets aren't "better" than others but some are. In this case, CurseLax is much better than AV Lax, and it even is better at checking Pidgeot since it isn't so easy to wear down without Lefties and Rest. The only reason to use AV Lax in the calc he used was to manipulate to prove his point. Now I am not saying Pidgeot is over centralizing, my original post was in response to the guy posting calcs of "counters" that are rarely seen.

No, thats literally the point, that as top threats emerge, premier sets change in order to deal with them better. It's not like av lax ONLY handles Pidgeot, it helps versus PZ, Nidos, etc. Who's to say that SpD Amph shouldn't be a set? That's a pretty closed minded approach to how a metagame evolves. Remember when Taunt Bulk Up Krook was the shit? Remember when Sub CM Chandelure was on every team? Remember when NidoStoise was the best core in the metagame? Times change and it's crazy to write off sets completely that clearly have a niche in taking on what is considered the most dangerous pokemon in the tier. I'm not saying that this is explicitly the case in this scenario but it's kind of facetious to assume that underrated or underutilized sets can't shine in the right conditions. As I mentioned before, the conditions inside a tier change and evolve and the playerbase needs to evolve with it.

 

[Kink]

Saying this as a general point, calcs should be made with the premise that Stealth Rocks are out... as this is the staple of what we consider when taking into account wallbreaking + sweeping. Entry hazards are a thing, and Stealth Rock are a standard on every team. It's pretty irrelevant to post calcs that don't utilize Stealth Rock, as this allows Mega Pidgeot to OHKO/2HKO the majority of the tier.

 

[Adaam]

No, thats literally the point, that as top threats emerge, premier sets change in order to deal with them better. It's not like av lax ONLY handles Pidgeot, it helps versus PZ, Nidos, etc. Who's to say that SpD Amph shouldn't be a set? That's a pretty closed minded approach to how a metagame evolves. Remember when Taunt Bulk Up Krook was the shit? Remember when Sub CM Chandelure was on every team? Remember when NidoStoise was the best core in the metagame? Times change and it's crazy to write off sets completely that clearly have a niche in taking on what is considered the most dangerous pokemon in the tier. I'm not saying that this is explicitly the case in this scenario but it's kind of facetious to assume that underrated or underutilized sets can't shine in the right conditions. As I mentioned before, the conditions inside a tier change and evolve and the playerbase needs to evolve with it.

Metagames aren't and shouldn't be defined by one pokemon and if SpD Amphy becomes a thing because of Pidgeot then it's overcentralizing. SpD shouldn't be a thing because it's only niche I can think of is checking Pidgeot. You either lose out on power and miss out on a lot of potential KOs, or you miss out on physical bulk and become weaker to Entei, Aero, Darm, Coba, Gatr etc

Besides this is getting off track. My original point was in response to cherry picked calcs. AV Lax is a thing yes, but it's a poor Pidgeot check and inferior to Curselax in checking Pidgeot. The only reason the guy used it in his calc was to manipulate it.

 

[MegaMasher]

Calcs don't lie when they're cherry picked :/. Nobody runs SpD Amphy, SpD Rotom H or AV Lax and if you are resorting to less viable sets like those then you should agree that Pidgeot is broken. We already know that these mons are checks to it but there is no need to manipulate them to benefit your point.

"Nobody runs SpD Amphy, SpD Rotom H or AV Lax"

I have and they all have worked out well for me in the past. I'm pretty sure SpDef Mega Amp IS a set since it's suggested on it's set ideas on it's entry in smogon lol.

Right off the bat I am questioned about how experienced you are with UU. Max Spdef Amph is not a set, and shouldn't be a set. If this was a set someone would run to stop a Pidgeot, that just shows how centralizing it is. It is kind of obvious to see your thought process when making this post. "Hmm I want Pidgeot to stay UU so I am going to find calcs that show how Pidgeot can be stopped! Let me go through the team builder and find flying resists and give them max Special Defense!" You can "wall" any pokemon by finding a pokemon that resist their stab and max out the defense. The same goes for Rotom H. Assualt Vest Snorlax wouldnt even handle a Pidgeot that well due to how quickly it would get widdled with taking a Hurricane + Stealth Rock damage.

"Max Spdef Amph is not a set, and shouldn't be a set"

With all due respect friend, SPDef Mega Amp IS a set and a damn good one too, to say that it isn't is pretty close minded as YABO stated. Not trying to hate or cherry pick but I can give you more damage calcs from different pokemon if you wish.

Yes you adapt to the metagame, you shouldn't create obscure sets like Specially Defensive Ampharos to specifically handle one threat and one threat only (isn't that over centralization?). And yes some sets aren't "better" than others but some are. In this case, CurseLax is much better than AV Lax, and it even is better at checking Pidgeot since it isn't so easy to wear down without Lefties and Rest. The only reason to use AV Lax in the calc he used was to manipulate to prove his point. Now I am not saying Pidgeot is over centralizing, my original post was in response to the guy posting calcs of "counters" that are rarely seen.

Regardless of whether these suggested sets are rarely seen or not cannot be swept under the rug. They have different niches and different purposes. Honestly, if we all adapted and built balanced teams, then even Mega Pidgeot shouldn't be an issue. It isn't like landorus-I or greninja, at least we can pinpoint what sort of moveset it runs with the occasional work up or defog to replace heat wave but that's about it.

Metagames aren't and shouldn't be defined by one pokemon and if SpD Amphy becomes a thing because of Pidgeot then it's overcentralizing. SpD shouldn't be a thing because it's only niche I can think of is checking Pidgeot. You either lose out on power and miss out on a lot of potential KOs, or you miss out on physical bulk and become weaker to Entei, Aero, Darm, Coba, Gatr etc

Besides this is getting off track. My original point was in response to cherry picked calcs. AV Lax is a thing yes, but it's a poor Pidgeot check and inferior to Curselax in checking Pidgeot. The only reason the guy used it in his calc was to manipulate it.

Not sure is "manipulate" is really an appropriate term to use in this situation, when all I was doing was selecting the most appropriate AND effect sets to check/counter mega pidgeot.

 

[radianthero156]

huh i thought megamasher's post was a sarcastic reference to the dude who was posting calcs against 252/252+ florg lol

anyway pidge is a huge cancer not only because it severely restrains teambuilding but because it also forcibly turns some games into rng wars. the teambuilding restriction argument is because few things in uu can constantly switch-in against powerful flying types, steels not being included because they might die to heat wave as well. i know pkmn like ampharos, aero, rotom-h, etc, can beat the bird and are very good on their own, but they dont fit easily on most teams. (aero/amph cost a mega slot, rotom-h requires hazard removal, etc). additionally, work up refresh is a set that flat out 6-0s stall, which is amazingly unhealthy for a metagame. i guess u can argue it also 6-0s stall in OU and is not even close to being broken there, but in OU its opportunity cost is much much much higher. HO also has many issues with pidgeot, seeing as pretty much every offensive mon in the tier is at least 2HKOed, and it outspeeds 99% of the meta. (there are only like 4 relevant mons which outspeed pidgeot without choice scarf)

as for the rng aspect, consider the following: florges, who's an usually safe switch-in vs most non super effective special attackers (it can counter blastoise without even resisting water), has a 51% chance of being confused by two hurricanes, then has another 50% chance of hitting itself thus risking getting killed.

conclusion: pidgeot is fked up and should leave asap; while the metagame isnt exactly much better (due to the presence of other broken pkmn like gatr), voting ban is certainly a step in the right direction. also lets hurry up pls because gslam is near

 

[Adaam]

"Nobody runs SpD Amphy, SpD Rotom H or AV Lax"

I have and they all have worked out well for me in the past. I'm pretty sure SpDef Mega Amp IS a set since it's suggested on it's set ideas on it's entry in smogon lol.




"Max Spdef Amph is not a set, and shouldn't be a set"

With all due respect friend, SPDef Mega Amp IS a set and a damn good one too, to say that it isn't is pretty close minded as YABO stated. Not trying to hate or cherry pick but I can give you more damage calcs from different pokemon if you wish.



Regardless of whether these suggested sets are rarely seen or not cannot be swept under the rug. They have different niches and different purposes. Honestly, if we all adapted and built balanced teams, then even Mega Pidgeot shouldn't be an issue. It isn't like landorus-I or greninja, at least we can pinpoint what sort of moveset it runs with the occasional work up or defog to replace heat wave but that's about it.



Not sure is "manipulate" is really an appropriate term to use in this situation, when all I was doing was selecting the most appropriate AND effect sets to check/counter mega pidgeot.

I went and checked the smogdex to see if you're right, and it turns out you are! SpD Amphy is a set...recommended for OU uses only lol. And using AV Lax IS manipulating the calcs because CurseLax is a much better Pidgeot check since it is harder to wear down, but you put AV on to reduce the damage done to it.

EDIT: I'm going to stop now because this thread is getting derailed

 

[MegaMasher]

I went and checked the smogdex to see if you're right, and it turns out you are! SpD Amphy is a set...recommended for OU uses only lol. And using AV Lax IS manipulating the calcs because CurseLax is a much better Pidgeot check since it is harder to wear down, but you put AV on to reduce the damage done to it.

OU, even better! :]

CurseLax is great in it's own tier..it should be just...just...WHAM! Lol I like to use AV since it's a pretty decent item of choice for offensive Snorlax.

I want to point out, I am not here to stir or cause any issues so i do apologize if how i came off was something taken the wrong way. I do respect your input as well as anyone else who takes the time to reply to me. :]

 

[pokemonisfun]

To anyone who ever says Pidgeot 6-0s stall, please stop that gross exaggeration.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-244390920

I have probably played at least 200+ or so games on the Pidgeot ladder (it /has/ been around for a while) with stall and I only remember once being swept by it. That replay above makes it clear even when I lost my primary answer to Mega Pidgeot stall has plenty of room to fit another one. I have plenty more replays so I'm not cherry picking but I have so many I simply couldn't find them. Admittedly my opponent played atrociously and should have won easily with Toxicroak in that game after Crobat died but firstly it shows having a Work Up Pidgeot doesn't mean "lol gg stall" and you still have to play accurately - which I believe you all think is positive - and secondly this game should make it obvious stall has room to counter Mega Pidgeot.

The reason why people like to use stall's viability as an argument for banning certain Pokemon is because stall is incredibly slow and if it doesn't prepare for something then undoubtedly it gets 6-0d since it has no "back up" Choice Scarf Pokemon or otherwise strong Pokemon. No amount of Blisseys and Alomomolas can stop a boosted up Pokemon, for the most part. Well shame on you to those who not only say Pidegot 6-0s stall but also pretend to care about stall - I bet you anything most of you don't use stall because that is a simple fact; most players don't use stall as it is the least popular style out of the most general balanced, offense and stall.

Let me make a quick point though, the "lol 6-0d gg" does not only apply to stall, it is, as I implied earlier, also applicable to offense and balance. Please tell me what does your typical hyper offense team do against Trick Room when all their Pokemon are subsequently outsped and OHKOd by a bulky Pokemon after only one turn of set up? Experienced players know a lot about what is typical of a position in Pokemon and they know general trends, but even better players know Pokemon is an extraordinarily specific game. What I mean by this is it doesn't matter how nice a boosting move + status immunity + no immunity STAB move sounds, if stall can think of a specific answer - even something as simple as Ice Beam Blissey or a more common Rock or Steel type - then it doesn't matter how nice the position sounds, tactically speaking you lose and stall survives.



That being said I am aware this post doesn't address the other reasons why Pidgeot should be banned or should not be banned...if you guys think 30% confusion is not too strong but too luck based for you then by all means ban Pidgeot. However I said this in a widely mocked post/once deleted about a year ago I believe...you must make guidelines for your luck bans. This goes beyond of course the typical voter's roles and goes to the shoulder's of our tier leaders. You cannot simply say "this is too much luck, we want to ban it". Our last tier leader once said something along the lines of "lol since when do we take %s into account when making bans?" when we were banning Venemoth I believe (referring to Sleep Powder).

But that is a flawed reasoning, you must take percentages into account and your guidelines need to show this because then we would have to, if we were logical, ban other hax, for instance Inferno Chandelure. Pidgeot is only broken, for those who want it banned because the confusion chance, because it can create free turns for itself and beat its counters with so called hax. Well Inferno Chandelure could do the same thing, with a much higher probability to boot, because 50% of the time it burns Snorlax (which usually runs rest only if it has Curse and mono normal) and absolutely kill bulky waters the next turn with energy Ball and burn damage. Another example would be Hypnosis Pokemon or Focus Blast Lucario. If you simply don't take accuracy into account these would be common moves - they clearly aren't.

Pidgeot cannot beat its counters a majority of the time. And for the record, neither can Inferno Chandelure (although Chandelure certainly isn't the only example, theoretically Confuse Ray Choice Scarf Crobat could check nearly the entire metagame with hax for instance).

A step in the right direction I believe would be asking all voters to at least make clear under which reasoning (if either of them) do they want to ban Pidgeot (if they want to ban) - is Pidgeot too strong or too lucky? Clearly the two are related but the posts from this thread make it obvious there are two distinct and logical arguments to ban Pidgeot.

As for myself, I will not vote because I don't consider myself qualified, but I certainly would be partial for keeping it UU because Work Up Pidgeot doesn't threaten my stall but Pidgeot in general keeps Fighting types lower in usage which do threaten my stall more :)

 

[LeoLancaster]

hilarious

Re: other hax

There's three key differences between something like Inferno Chandelure and Mega Pidgeot. The first is that as often as Inferno Chandelure manages to break past its checks with hax, it fails to do anything at all - in order to hax its way past its checks, it has to take the chance of the same hax backfiring in its face. The second is that Chandelure has to give up something to gain this capacity for hax, likely Fire Blast, reducing its general effectiveness. Mega Pidgeot has neither of these first two problems: there is absolutely no opportunity cost to having Hurricane because it's already Pidgeot's best STAB move.

The third difference is that all of your examples require some degree of prediction in order to cripple their checks. Chandelure might want to click Shadow Ball instead, Hypnosis Crobat might need to use Brave Bird, etc. Other non-hax examples exist: Aerodactyl has tons of relevant coverage options, Chandelure can cripple Lax and P2 with TrickScarf, etc. But Pidgeot doesn't have this limitation, because it's STAB move, which is spammable and powerful, can just outright cripple nearly all of its checks 15% of the time each time it clicks Hurricane. Essentially, even if you play correctly against Pidgeot, you might still just lose your check, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Of course, nearly every Pokemon in the game can do the same with crits, but Pidgeot does so with a much higher frequency. So, in essence, this test depends on whether you think this frequency is too high. I agree with hilarious about deciding how much hax is too much, but the comparisons he used are flawed. Pidgeot doesn't have to predict or give up anything to achieve game-winning hax - it's just handed to it when the rng comes up.

 

[MegaMasher]

To anyone who ever says Pidgeot 6-0s stall, please stop that gross exaggeration.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-244390920

I have probably played at least 200+ or so games on the Pidgeot ladder (it /has/ been around for a while) with stall and I only remember once being swept by it. That replay above makes it clear even when I lost my primary answer to Mega Pidgeot stall has plenty of room to fit another one. I have plenty more replays so I'm not cherry picking but I have so many I simply couldn't find them. Admittedly my opponent played atrociously and should have won easily with Toxicroak in that game after Crobat died but firstly it shows having a Work Up Pidgeot doesn't mean "lol gg stall" and you still have to play accurately - which I believe you all think is positive - and secondly this game should make it obvious stall has room to counter Mega Pidgeot.

The reason why people like to use stall's viability as an argument for banning certain Pokemon is because stall is incredibly slow and if it doesn't prepare for something then undoubtedly it gets 6-0d since it has no "back up" Choice Scarf Pokemon or otherwise strong Pokemon. No amount of Blisseys and Alomomolas can stop a boosted up Pokemon, for the most part. Well shame on you to those who not only say Pidegot 6-0s stall but also pretend to care about stall - I bet you anything most of you don't use stall because that is a simple fact; most players don't use stall as it is the least popular style out of the most general balanced, offense and stall.

Let me make a quick point though, the "lol 6-0d gg" does not only apply to stall, it is, as I implied earlier, also applicable to offense and balance. Please tell me what does your typical hyper offense team do against Trick Room when all their Pokemon are subsequently outsped and OHKOd by a bulky Pokemon after only one turn of set up? Experienced players know a lot about what is typical of a position in Pokemon and they know general trends, but even better players know Pokemon is an extraordinarily specific game. What I mean by this is it doesn't matter how nice a boosting move + status immunity + no immunity STAB move sounds, if stall can think of a specific answer - even something as simple as Ice Beam Blissey or a more common Rock or Steel type - then it doesn't matter how nice the position sounds, tactically speaking you lose and stall survives.



That being said I am aware this post doesn't address the other reasons why Pidgeot should be banned or should not be banned...if you guys think 30% confusion is not too strong but too luck based for you then by all means ban Pidgeot. However I said this in a widely mocked post/once deleted about a year ago I believe...you must make guidelines for your luck bans. This goes beyond of course the typical voter's roles and goes to the shoulder's of our tier leaders. You cannot simply say "this is too much luck, we want to ban it". Our last tier leader once said something along the lines of "lol since when do we take %s into account when making bans?" when we were banning Venemoth I believe (referring to Sleep Powder).

But that is a flawed reasoning, you must take percentages into account and your guidelines need to show this because then we would have to, if we were logical, ban other hax, for instance Inferno Chandelure. Pidgeot is only broken, for those who want it banned because the confusion chance, because it can create free turns for itself and beat its counters with so called hax. Well Inferno Chandelure could do the same thing, with a much higher probability to boot, because 50% of the time it burns Snorlax (which usually runs rest only if it has Curse and mono normal) and absolutely kill bulky waters the next turn with energy Ball and burn damage. Another example would be Hypnosis Pokemon or Focus Blast Lucario. If you simply don't take accuracy into account these would be common moves - they clearly aren't.

Pidgeot cannot beat its counters a majority of the time. And for the record, neither can Inferno Chandelure (although Chandelure certainly isn't the only example, theoretically Confuse Ray Choice Scarf Crobat could check nearly the entire metagame with hax for instance).

A step in the right direction I believe would be asking all voters to at least make clear under which reasoning (if either of them) do they want to ban Pidgeot (if they want to ban) - is Pidgeot too strong or too lucky? Clearly the two are related but the posts from this thread make it obvious there are two distinct and logical arguments to ban Pidgeot.

As for myself, I will not vote because I don't consider myself qualified, but I certainly would be partial for keeping it UU because Work Up Pidgeot doesn't threaten my stall but Pidgeot in general keeps Fighting types lower in usage which do threaten my stall more :)

That opinion could crisp bacon!! Liked and wish there was a LOVE button for that! :]

 

[zben]

"What is the hax we want to accept", that is the real question of this thread.
In fact, the 30% hax is what make pidgeot a terrible mon. If we dont consider that hax, Pidgeot is not so terrible as a lot of people keep consider it, it's a very good mon but frail.
The hax permits sometimes to pidgeot to kill its counters ; But this sometimes is important because, we have not the same capacity to accept the hax, to accept to lose because of hax and unfortunately i think a large majority of the (so-called) good players of UU "HATE" lose because of hax.

Personnaly the hax dont bother me because i think i will have as much reward of hax as my opponents will have so i dont rage about it and it's why i love this game : A game is never decided to the beginning.
Unfortunetely, the large majarority of the (so-called) good players of UU dont think like me and only remember their lose.
It's my opinion, i think that these so called good players dont want to lose against a weaker (competitively) opponent because of hax.And i think it's the main argument of this thread but you dont want to admit it.
So i'm sick of people who are trying to manipulate the others saying that pidgeot is difficult to handle , it restrains teambuilding (It's shit).I'm sick of this manipulation of the main part of the voters who want a game easier so who will easily accept that kind of argument.

I think really that a lot of good players dont assume their true motivation.
So i just want more honesty, and i think we must center the debate on the place of the hax and stop speaking about check or counters( there are a lot of viable and it's not debatable).
I think that the majority of the players dont really accept hax so it's better to ban Pidgeot.
( personally i dont want to ban but the collective interest is more important)

 

[Max Carvalho]

If we ban Pidgeot because of Hurricane rates, I think we should, as Hilarious stated, determine guidelines for luck. Face it, this game is not dull as hell because of luck (not only because of it, just a major factor). We can't totally take it, but we should make it less determinating if we want to create a competitive meta. I think, however, that it would be more mature and effective as community, to simply determine wether if Pidge's luck factor he brings is healthy or not and why. We can't count on a list of sorts to say if something is broken or not, though I think this could be a useful tool to orient us about a mon possible brokeness, not to determine it. Not just numbers, these guidelines should focus on giving general ideas on the subject. Just keeping In mind that anything that has luck involved takes no strategical thinking to exploy, that's low to no risk / extremly high reward, that have few to no countermeasures is ban worthy should be enough for now.

 

[Jefozz]

Man, this bird is amazing. 121 speed, 135 Spa and an OK bulk (when I say "OK bulk" I mean that it doesn´t get 2hkoed by a wall, for example Empoleon´s scald or Florges´ mblast). However, what makes this bird really good is it blasts off 120 BP unmissable move, that can confuse. Scary isn´t it?

I´ve found this meta A LOT more enjoyable than the one with MPidgeot, but that is only because that 30% chance is not present. HOWEVER, the question is, as zben mentioned How much hax are we willing to take until a strategy or a pokemonbecomes uncompetitve .

 

[SirBlastoise]

Im about halfway to needed coil! IMO it shouldnt be banned, i get it's a threat but, empoleon walls it and its so common. Also ithout it he choice of megas is very diffucult as the only great offensive mega is beedrill, and he doesnt always fit wit teams very well.

 

[teal6]

I left my laddering alt logged in at work so I am stuck at like 2490 coil for the night or whatever but that's long enough to have formed an opinion I think

Usually when I do a suspect I dont really think of "overcentralization" or "broken" the way a lot of other people do. I tend to just think is the tier more fun with the mon in it. And it's weird, Pidgeot normally would fit the way I like to play the best.. strong, fast attacker, spammable move, etc. But I just genuinely don't like it. Hurricane is the problem, really. If it didn't have that stupid 30% chance to confuse it wouldn't be so bad.

I think MPidgeot even fucks up offense in a way that I don't like. I am very used to sacking in order to get a better matchup, planning a few turns out, predicting or whatever, etc. But offense isn't about doing that constantly. For example, if I am running a mon that can take 1 hurricane (say, 75% or so) and beat Pidgeot the next turn, I feel I should be reliably able to do that. With mons like Hydrei, Salamence, Mamo, even when Serperior was around it worked on him, etc. this was doable. You could strategically plan to take a huge hit in order to scare it out or kill the opponent right there, and if they switched you could preserve for later. With Pidgeot I've lost track of the number of times I've been able to switch in something that can take a Hurricane and then proceed to hit myself in confusion while the opponent (usually, retardedly) stays in. It's so unbelievably frustrating and happens with such bizarre regularity that I can safely say it's not really fun to play against, or with.

Gonna probably ban it unless someone gives me a sick ass argument otherwise but idk frustrating pokemon

edit: also Pidgeot isn't even that frail for whoevers been saying that. It lives a max attack adamant Hariyama Stone Edge which is ridiculous

 

[Death Bolt]

I don't know if it's just me, but I've noticed a lot of confuse ray on the ladder. Compensation for lack of hurricane hax?

 

[psVoltage]

I don't know if it's just me, but I've noticed a lot of confuse ray on the ladder. Compensation for lack of hurricane hax?

no