np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257

[Funbot28]

Ok so what are the potential mons to drop to UU exactly?

Also, THE RISE OF THE FIGHTINGS

 

[LeoLancaster]

Gothitelle is almost certainly going to drop, but with Shadow Tag banned it's irrelevant. The closest contenders besides Goth are Celebi, Jirachi, Manectric, and Zapdos; however, none of these were actually below the cutoff last month, so it's unlikely any will actually drop. We'll also be getting Smeargle and Venomoth from BL due to the new Baton Pass clause.

 

[Tymano]

Ok so what are the potential mons to drop to UU exactly?

There aren't really any pokemon with the >3.41% usage mark, but the 3 closest ones are Gothitelle, Celebi, and Manectric.

Edit; I don't know why everyone says Rachi is dropping, as it gets more OU usage than these OU mons.
Gorhitelle, Celebi, Manectric, Zapdos, Conkeldurr, Sylveon, Diancie, Dragonite, and Mew.

 

[Nightingales]

Might just be theorymonning, but Sylveon and Dragonite in UU would be quite interesting as ways to punish dragons.

 

[psVoltage]

Would multiscale be a bit too much on dragonite? Pair that with yache and It could be deadly since ice shard has a good chance to not kill from mamoswine.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yache Berry Dragonite: 179-213 (55.4 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ofc this is all theory but I could see dnite if it would ever drop to stay in bl

 

[ooh keil em]

Dragonite would be a little bit too much for UU and it would stay in OU l, and Slyveon has a p good chance to drop again but in the end i think it will prob end up in BL limbo unless something happens to the meta

 

[Kink]

Enough with the 'if' conjecture statements regarding mons that will not drop, such as Jirachi.

Click below for a guide to our standards for posting in this thread:

Posting Guide

The Basics

• Lurking is never a bad idea if you're brand new to the competitive scene. Take some time to figure out how members are posting and how the tier operates before you dive in.
• Generic 'if' statements will rarely contribute to a topic unless the point is directly connected to the topic at hand. For example: if Jirachi falls to UU, I'll start using x on y.
  
• Your post / reply should never be rude, overly aggressive, or malicious. Nobody likes being insulted, and by putting someone down, you're not doing your arguments any favour. You just look dumb, and if you maintain this pace, you'll notice a lot of your posts / threads being deleted, and you may even face action from a moderator. If you can keep your posts clean, concise, and manage to avoid stepping on people's toes, you'll gain some credibility around here, and members will be more willing to read your arguments and take them seriously.
• Dry wit / sarcasm / humour on occasion is great, as it can liven up a post and help prove a point. However, don't be a clown. After a while, people will stop taking you seriously. If you want to be funny, check out Firebot, but this subforum is primarily aimed at discussion, reason, and focused arguments.
• Before submitting a reply (or even a post) you need to take a step back and ask yourself some questions, "does what I said make sense?", "is my argument valid?", "why is my argument valid?", and "will other people support my argument?". If you can easily answer the first two questions with ease, chances are, you've got a good post. Making that same post a great one however requires the third and fourth questions to follow suit. If you cannot prove what you're trying to deliver to us, or if nobody is willing to support it, your ideas won't get very far.
• Avoid obscenely massive posts. I've been guilt of this before too, and at the end of the day, not too many members are going to want to read a page-long essay as to why something should be or shouldn't be. Don't cop out on your post either, but avoid writing an article for something that would only need a few paragraphs. If you must throw a wall of text at us, put a TL;DR statement at the top of your post summarizing your ideas. It's polite, and can save those certain members some time.
• Lastly, your reply / post / thread needs to be reasonable. While Underused can be a very flexible tier in terms of lower-tier viability, not everything has its use. Before making a statement that may later on be considered wild, do some research. Try that Pokemon, strategy, whatever it is you're trying to make a point of out on the ladder. Do some calculations. Avoid going into your ideas without being able to support them. Knowing what you're talking about will make your ideas more likely to become valid.

Supporting Your Post

• Whenever need evidence to showcase your ideas, Damage Calculations are an excellent way to get a point across. These give the community hard numbers to look at, and can greatly emphasize your point. The common practice regarding damage calculations is to target the common Pokemon in the tier. So if you were arguing for an offensive Pokemon, use the heaviest walls in the tier to emphasize your point, and vice-versa if you're arguing for a defensive Pokemon.
• Battle Logs are a solid way to prove the effectiveness of cores, strategies, or individual moves / items on a Pokemon, as they're recordings of those things in action. If posting these, try to provide more than one, as the more evidence you can stack up to support an argument, the better. Don't go nuts with it however. Another common courtesy to consider is to indicate the specific turns when the topic in focus takes place, and should be a must for longer battles.
• Logic and credibility, while neither cannot be linked, are huge. If what you're saying makes sense, and you're known for being sensible, your post will immediately gain traction. Having these behind a post, specifically logic, will inevitably make supporting an argument easier, as the post and evidence won't contradict each other.

If you have any questions, direct them here.

For the last time, please do not post about what to suspect next. We are going to be seeing a tier shift on August 1st.

Thank you.

 

[Freeroamer]

Do Open sign ups start today or tomorrow? Sam said the 26th but the GS thread says 25th...

 

[Kink]

Do Open sign ups start today or tomorrow? Sam said the 26th but the GS thread says 25th...

Sam leads the sign ups, follow what he says.

 

[MONNA LUSA]

finally…

#FREEVENOMOTH comin thruu

 

[Cheryl.]

This will be the best Venomoth set imo:
Venomoth @ Life Orb / Focus Sash / Black Sludge
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVS: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Modest / Timid Nature
-Quiver Dance
-Bug Buzz
-Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain
-Sleep Powder / Toxic Spikes
This set aims to sweep with Quiver Dance. Thanks to Tinted Lens, Venomoth doesn't have to run coverage for stuff like Steel types, as it hits them hard with Bug Buzz. Quiver Dance is used to boost and try to sweep, duh. Bug Buzz is Venomoth's main STAB, being nearly unresisted with Tinted Lens. Sludge Bomb can be used for secondary STAB and for an easier time against Fairy Types, and Giga Drain is an option to nail Rock types and heal up damage. Sleep Powder is used so you have an easier time setting up, but if you don't care about that, Toxic Spikes can be used so Venomoth has a bit of utility. Venomoth likes to set up on Fighting types and Grass types, and it doesn't have the best bulk, so try to get it in on weak attackers. Modest is used for more power, but Timid can be used to outspeed whatever I'm too lazy to look it up.

And that's what will be the best Venomoth set!

 

[Tymano]

Just saying, Venomoth is really outclassed by Yanmega except for quiver dance, as Yanmega is a) faster, b) hits a lot harder, and c) can run some very good sets (specs, speed boost) over venomoths one set (Quiver dance.)

 

[Cheryl.]

Just saying, Venomoth is really outclassed by Yanmega except for quiver dance, as Yanmega is a) faster, b) hits a lot harder, and c) can run some very good sets (specs, speed boost) over venomoths one set (Quiver dance.)

well, VENOMOTH ISNT 4X WEAK TO SR SUCK ON THAT YANMEGA. But yeah, it receives competition from Yangmega

 

[DaSpoofy]

Can smeargle still pass a bd. From my understanding, you just cant pass speed.

 

[Cheryl.]

Can smeargle still pass a bd. From my understanding, you just cant pass speed.

You can't pass an anything with speed, so no QD Pass or GeoPass or SmashPass or whatever.

 

[canasian]

You can Belly Drum and still Baton Pass. In fact, if you wanted to, you can Belly Drum, Amnesia, and Iron Defense, and then Baton Pass; you just can't pass any of those things alongside Speed boosts.

On the topic of Venomoth, I wouldn't call it totally outclassed by Yanmega because Sleep Powder is a good move and it can boost its speed while having Tinted Lens, but you really can't undersell just how many 4x Bug resists exist in this tier and most scarf users are outspeeding a +1 Venomoth anyway so it isn't difficult to revenge kill. It definitely needs to pick Timid over Modest, since neutral speed loses to Aerodactyl/Sceptile/Beedrill and doesn't have the opportunity to sleep Mamoswine, Chandy (hey look at that 4x Bug resist on one of the best 'mons in the tier), and a handful of others.
It's a cute 'mon in theory, but in practice I can't really imagine it being better than Vivillon.

 

[Darvin]

but you really can't undersell just how many 4x Bug resists exist in this tier

Most of them are hit fairly hard by Giga drain. Tinted Lens pretty much solves all of Venomoth's coverage problems, with Crobat being the only viable pokemon in the meta that double resists both bug and grass. Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain is another option; Crobat ceases to be a problem for that set, but Forretress and Chesnaught become issues if you do that.

calcs

Cobalion - +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 161-192 (49.8 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Lucario - +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario: 164-195 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Toxicroak - +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: 174-205 (56.6 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chandelure - +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 135-159 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Infernape - +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 164-192 (55.9 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doublade - +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Giga Drain vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 140-166 (43.8 - 52%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
Crobat - +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Crobat: 133-159 (35.6 - 42.6%) -- 88.8% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 265-315 (71 - 84.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

The biggest issue for Venomoth is that he lacks power and bulk. He needs to be at +1 with a Life Orb to really be dangerous offensively, but he has trouble setting up and staying alive with his poor bulk and LO recoil only makes that worse. It'll be interesting to try, but I think Venomoth will struggle in the UU meta.

It's a shame that Venomoth's stats aren't more threatening, since Shield Dust would be a really cool ability in this meta if it actually had some power and bulk to back it up. Venomoth just too easy to wall without Tinted Lens and a lot of bulky waters carry phasing these days so they probably aren't the setup bait you're hoping for.

 

[MegaFlareon]

Most of them are hit fairly hard by Giga drain. Tinted Lens pretty much solves all of Venomoth's coverage problems, with Crobat being the only viable pokemon in the meta that double resists both bug and grass. Sludge Bomb / Giga Drain is another option; Crobat ceases to be a problem for that set, but Forretress and Chesnaught become issues if you do that.

Psychic is also an option to hit Crobat hard as well as other 4x Bug resists such as Infernape, Chandelure, Cobalion, Doublade, and Toxicroak harder than its STABs. Bug Buzz/Psychic deals decent coverage in the tier although you're still not taking down specially defensive Pokemon that easily.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Psychic vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 356-421 (95.4 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Venomoth Psychic vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 169-200 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 195-230 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 199-235 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Psychic vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 395-465 (134.8 - 158.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Venomoth Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Toxicroak: 842-993 (274.2 - 323.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Wow! 4x Bug resists are really common!

 

[Schpoonman]

I think you guys are missing that there are very very few Pokemon that 4x resist Bug Buzz that aren't hit very hard by boosted Sludge Bomb. There aren't any Pokemon that 4x resist both, just resist Bug Buzz and are immune to Sludge Bomb, so they're all Steels, so you could run HP Fire for them.

 

[FlyThai]

If Venomoth is coming back to UU it's a great time to have Band Sleep Talk Entei

Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Sleep Talk

Pretty self explanatory, this switches into Venomoth no matter what it does. If it elects to sleep powder you can click sleep talk and no matter what you roll Venomoth is screwed. You can even Sacred Fire and burn thus breaking its sash

 

[Skankovich]

I don't think venomoth is going to have much of an impact at all on the tier, it faces heavy competition from Vivillon who has accurate sleep and hurricane, which gives it an important power advantage, and flying type resists are rare enough and frail enough to not appreciate boosted hurricanes, outside of empoleon.

Also I don't think Venomoth will be running hp fire any time soon, considering 2 slots in sleep powder and quiver dance are pretty much guaranteed on any set.

 

[Godsend]

I don't think venomoth is going to have much of an impact at all on the tier, it faces heavy competition from Vivillon who has accurate sleep and hurricane, which gives it an important power advantage, and flying type resists are rare enough and frail enough to not appreciate boosted hurricanes, outside of empoleon.

Also I don't think Venomoth will be running hp fire any time soon, considering 2 slots in sleep powder and quiver dance are pretty much guaranteed on any set.

Tinted Lens gives SUCH good coverage, plus better stats overall and not being 4x weak to rocks makes Venomoth the overall superior option. Sleep also isn't the most reliable so it honestly could be dropped for more coverage or even substitute.

 

[Skankovich]

Tinted Lens gives SUCH good coverage, plus better stats overall and not being 4x weak to rocks makes Venomoth the overall superior option. Sleep also isn't the most reliable so it honestly could be dropped for more coverage or even substitute.

The thing is, there's literally just as many flying resists in the tier as there are 4x bug resists, 7 of each, so it doesn't have much of an advantage when it comes to coverage. Giving up sleep is a bad move as it makes it far easier to revenge kill and check and far more difficult to set up- I'd certainly not give it up for hp fire.

 

[Godsend]

The thing is, there's literally just as many flying resists in the tier as there are 4x bug resists, 7 of each, so it doesn't have much of an advantage when it comes to coverage. Giving up sleep is a bad move as it makes it far easier to revenge kill and check and far more difficult to set up- I'd certainly not give it up for hp fire.

I'm pretty sure Tinted Lens Bug/Poison gives at least as good (if not better, I'm not mobile right now so I can't really check) neutral coverage than Bug/Flying.

Giving up sleep powder is a toss. You MAY be able to generate free turns but you have a 25% chance to get nothing and then a chance on top of that for the mon wake up on the next turn (assuming moth is faster which is likely based on what it'll be setting up on/when it is already set up).

Venomoth also has the added bonus of setting up on the various fairies in the tier, along with its higher spdef helping it tank special hits in general.

That's not to say Vivillion is bad or doesn't have its niche, but I feel Venomoth is a generally superior choice.

 

[Venoxio]

Actually, I'd like to mention Ominous Wind as a viable coverage move for Venomoth. It hits Chandelure and Doublade super effectively, as well as hitting Psychics and has decent coverage alongside Bug Buzz. It even has a chance to raise all Venomoth's stats. I will give Energy Ball and Giga Drain mentions as well for hitting rock types. Venomoth gets more coverage than Yanmega, which is another selling point.