Even with a one Pokemon limit Baton Passing continues to ruin competitive play. Combusken is obviously a huge problem if you're forced to run certain Pokemon to have a chance to stop it from quick passing. It's even worse when the suggested Pokemon or moves are useless against other playstyles. Using those type of arguments to save the blazing kicking chicken only prove that it's unhealthy for NU. I've never faced the strategy but I've seen replays and from what I've seen it's very hard to stop. That's because of Combuskens eviolite boosted bulk, it's excellent resistances, and it's ability, Speed Boost. I don't support banning Combusken and would support a complex ban on Baton Pass + Speed Boost because Baton Pass being legal with Speed Boost is the real problem.
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Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)
- Thread starter Raseri
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Doesn't matter, Qwilfish still loses the 1v1...
4 Atk Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Xatu: 100-118 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not to mention you can't even use Waterfall against Xatu ever, because
+1 252+ SpA Xatu Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 420-494 (125.7 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So Qwilfish is very shaky at best.
4 Atk Qwilfish Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 80 Def Xatu: 100-118 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not to mention you can't even use Waterfall against Xatu ever, because
+1 252+ SpA Xatu Stored Power (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 420-494 (125.7 - 147.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So Qwilfish is very shaky at best.
It is only a problem on Combusken right now, Ninjask was never a problem and I doubt it ever will be. Whirlipede is a joke too, so banning Combusken is simple and more efficient while still allowing people to use gimmicky stuff like Ninjask and Whirlipede (Ninjask could still use CB, but hey, some people like SpeedPass Ninjask and that strategy is nowhere as difficult to deal with as ChickenPass). It doesn't really make sense to do a complex ban when only one Pokemon is the problem.
If there were to be a complex ban (which as of right now Combusken as a whole is being suspected) I would say the best option would be to ban baton pass on Combusken. This means it would still be viable with an SD set and other speed boost baton pass users could still be used.
Edit: Because apparently it wasnt clear by bolding it, i understand that Combusken as a whole is being suspected and that a complex ban isnt being considered. I was pointing out that the thing that would be best to get rid of in a complex ban is not speed boost + baton pass, but just baton pass on Combusken.
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Smogon tends to avoid complex bans and banning SB+BP on Combusken is waaaaay above the bar of what is acceptable. Also raseri already said earlier in the thread we should not talk about this so let's go back to discussing relevant things.
[20:47:34] @Q²uite Quiet: aladyyn, can you edit your post to add banning a move on a single pokemon is a bad way to handle something broken
[20:48:22] @Q²uite Quiet: I don't feel like posting a one liner just for that
ok
[20:47:34] @Q²uite Quiet: aladyyn, can you edit your post to add banning a move on a single pokemon is a bad way to handle something broken
[20:48:22] @Q²uite Quiet: I don't feel like posting a one liner just for that
ok
Just pointing out whirlipede doesn't even get Baton Pass o.o
Lol I don't get these "if" posts because the current suspect is Combusken as a whole (as Raseri already said) and a complex ban is not even being considered :/
Scolipede was the heart of the Baton Pass + Speed Boost strategy in OU, which led to Baton Pass being limited in every tier except for Ubers. Combusken is arguably worse because of its bulk, it's resistances, and its ability to boost 3 stats in one turn. I guess that isn't relevant. I only suggested a complex ban because Combusken isn't broken outside of the quick passing strategy. I was also ignorant of Raseri's post because I didn't feel like scrolling through the same rehashed statements.
You know I deleted this post since the guy who posted it got his/her message deleted, but I will repost it to avoid the same arguments being reused over and over.
Yeah, don't suggest complex bans right now. Because complex bans would prompt OU to retest Blaziken and Mega Blaziken, and OU really does not want more suspect tests as it is. Not just OU; it would take every single meta forever to resolve their individual tests.
I haven't played much with combusken but I'll try it tomorrow.
From what I've seen, it sounds pretty broken. The ability to quickly pass to a teammate speed and power boosts is simply insane, especially if you have a good attacker waiting. Just curious, what Pokemon have you been using with combusken? Scyther seems like a cool option to me
From what I've seen, it sounds pretty broken. The ability to quickly pass to a teammate speed and power boosts is simply insane, especially if you have a good attacker waiting. Just curious, what Pokemon have you been using with combusken? Scyther seems like a cool option to me
The most common have been Feraligatr, Kangaskhan, and of course Xatu. All very effective baton pass recipients. Most of the reasoning as to why have been posted above already.
Steelix and poliwrath are pretty hard counters as well (steelix kills Slurpuff and D-tails everything else, and can break the sub with EQ, while Poliwrath has circle throw and waterfall), but I agree with pretty much everything else you said.
Complex bans are only useful if multiple pokemon are deemed broken for the same reason, at which point you could get rid of the broken aspect. Combusken is the only (arguably) broken BPer in NU as of now, and so a complex ban isn't necessary at all.
Uh yea im not tryna correct u here but sth ive seen quite commonly on xatubusken (yes im calling it this now lel c: ) when i switch in steelix is the following words:
The opposing Xatu used Heat Wave
Its p common as far as ive seen so not even steelix is safe. Plus kanga and gatr both can wreck it with the boosts since gatr is p bulky and kanga has drain punch to heal back up iirc.
And even if steelix phazes/predicts a puff switch in and iron heads they all can even heavily damage steelix without a boost, so i even consider steelix being shaky at best.
Just thought id share my 2 cents wit ya :)
I don't see how a Xatu from a Chicken Pass team could run Heat Wave. It needs Calm Mind to continue the boosts from Busken, Roost for recovery, Stored Power as its sweeping move, and Dazzling Gleam for Spiritomb.
(Stopping Spiritomb is obviously more relevant than stopping Steelix)
Also klinklang as it has that cool niche of being unable to be intimidated and his subs will not be broken by dragon tail's, especially after a bulk up. This emphazizes the the points we've all been making that Steelix etc are not counters as the threat is not combusken, it is the options it has to go into to avoid the 'counter' you have chosen.
It is also immune to Clear Smog... It is a really cool recipient in general. (btw can someone test if Clear Body means it is immune to Topsy Turvy and Haze?)
There are just way too many things that benefit from Combusken pass so you can't really cover them all with 1 counter. The most consistent check is still Ditto who can still lose due to its lower HP/happiness affecting return/frustration issue or Hidden Power type.
Not to mention if the recipient has substitute, like Klingklang, ditto will not transform and won't be able to get all of the boosts. Just something to point out when considering ditto as a check.
Assault vest Ludicolo
Decently bulky Pokemon with 80/70/100 (Cannot Calculate what he could survive due to being on Mobile)
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Giga Drain
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Ice beam/Hidden Power Fire
EVs: 124 Hp/252 SpA/132 SpD
Nature: Calm/Modest
Scald is to get the potential burn, crippling such Pokemon as Sawk
Giga Drain is to recover health as well as getting STAB
Focus Blast is there for dark types and steel types which Ludi normally has a hard time hitting
Last slots a Freebie but I recommend one of the two listed
Decently bulky Pokemon with 80/70/100 (Cannot Calculate what he could survive due to being on Mobile)
Move 1: Scald
Move 2: Giga Drain
Move 3: Focus Blast
Move 4: Ice beam/Hidden Power Fire
EVs: 124 Hp/252 SpA/132 SpD
Nature: Calm/Modest
Scald is to get the potential burn, crippling such Pokemon as Sawk
Giga Drain is to recover health as well as getting STAB
Focus Blast is there for dark types and steel types which Ludi normally has a hard time hitting
Last slots a Freebie but I recommend one of the two listed
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
As someone who has never had a real problem with Burd-pass let me just say a few things. Haze Dragalge solves many of the problems.
"But Deej running Dragalge with haze to anticipate Combusk means you had to adjust to the burd meta!"
Nope I had haze for a few month now, it's quite useful in other situations besides combusken (crotomb, lilligant, etc)
Similar situation with my trick Uxie set...yes it counters Xatu and whatnot..but that isn't its only purpose, these sets have won me many games without facing Xatu or Combusken.
To be honest I'm fine with the chicken although I'm heavily biased because my team has never had any issues, nor really needed to change at all, due to the prominence of busk and Xatu (although I did add snatch on my tomb just for fun ;) )
"Is combusken a threat?"- Yes and its viability ranking should probably be ~ A-
"Should it be banned?"- Nope
Anywayz, thats my say on this issue
"But Deej running Dragalge with haze to anticipate Combusk means you had to adjust to the burd meta!"
Nope I had haze for a few month now, it's quite useful in other situations besides combusken (crotomb, lilligant, etc)
Similar situation with my trick Uxie set...yes it counters Xatu and whatnot..but that isn't its only purpose, these sets have won me many games without facing Xatu or Combusken.
To be honest I'm fine with the chicken although I'm heavily biased because my team has never had any issues, nor really needed to change at all, due to the prominence of busk and Xatu (although I did add snatch on my tomb just for fun ;) )
"Is combusken a threat?"- Yes and its viability ranking should probably be ~ A-
"Should it be banned?"- Nope
Anywayz, thats my say on this issue
Yes it solves problems
Yes it's useful outside of beating Combusken
BUT:
Like most people have said before, if you have to run one of very few hardcounters (basically consisting of only haze) it's overcentralising
Plus, even a so-called hard counter simply resets stats, moving the issue to later down the road when Combusken sets up again. This puts massive pressure on your hazer to stay alive.
My personal opinion on combusken is that it has altered the way people think when they build a team. When something affects team building this much, it is a problem. A whole stop to baton pass is something with prankster and encore/taunt. Since NU literally has one pokemon with this, Liepard, it's frail as shit and cannot reliably switch in on busken before the baton pass for the risk of getting bopped by a flare blitz, brick break or anything of the sort. Yes there are counters such as poliwrath or priority users etc, but busken sets up on a lot in the tier. There is a lot to be analysed here also, since busken has an amazing typing, it can set up on things in the tier defensively and offensively such as shiftry or vileplume for example. With this, I've also noticed that I've had to alter the things in my team which i build around. I feel the need to have something imy team with a powerful flying stab move to hit anything that busken boosts to or busken itself. It's literally the only way I deal with it and with that, it can't switch in safely. Now with screens support, even then, my tactic is risky and 50/50 at best and it appears to beat a lot of the tier with little effort required.
For I don't think Busken is broken itself, it's the baton passing of boosts to things like Kanga, Feraligator, Xatu with stored power and anything bulky that can take a hit on switch in. It's a machine that can take almost any hit thrown at it with a good player behind the wheel and it's something that is simple. And if there is anyone who has played the ladder doesn't enjoy playing because busken pass is so common. With that, if people don't enjoy playing because an idea or concept is so cheap, it surely does send a message to people that this pokemon needs to go? Without the facts and performance, if you're having to constantly build around this threat and idea that is so hartcounter because of how fast it is and how powerful it is when it sets up boosts, it's almost game over. Not to mention the variety of sets it can run, it's stupid.
In my personal opinion, it just ruins the meta, if people are going to the top of the ladder because they are abusing a cheap tactic then it suggests that it is far superior to most playstyles and most ideas on the ladder. Hence it should go and I'm sure most of you agree with me since it has too much variety, bulk, speed and power once it sets up boosts.
Bare in mind I have written this at 4am and I am tired so my wording is rather bad, but you get the point haha.
For I don't think Busken is broken itself, it's the baton passing of boosts to things like Kanga, Feraligator, Xatu with stored power and anything bulky that can take a hit on switch in. It's a machine that can take almost any hit thrown at it with a good player behind the wheel and it's something that is simple. And if there is anyone who has played the ladder doesn't enjoy playing because busken pass is so common. With that, if people don't enjoy playing because an idea or concept is so cheap, it surely does send a message to people that this pokemon needs to go? Without the facts and performance, if you're having to constantly build around this threat and idea that is so hartcounter because of how fast it is and how powerful it is when it sets up boosts, it's almost game over. Not to mention the variety of sets it can run, it's stupid.
In my personal opinion, it just ruins the meta, if people are going to the top of the ladder because they are abusing a cheap tactic then it suggests that it is far superior to most playstyles and most ideas on the ladder. Hence it should go and I'm sure most of you agree with me since it has too much variety, bulk, speed and power once it sets up boosts.
Bare in mind I have written this at 4am and I am tired so my wording is rather bad, but you get the point haha.
I'm not entirely convinced by this argument. If a Pokemon has multiple counters that aren't entirely useless outside of beating it, it isn't overcentralizing. Sawk doesn't have many counters, basically consisting of only very physically bulky Pokemon, and switching it in simply means that you're hard-pressed to keep it alive as Sawk can just switch out. That's not very worthy of a ban. Same thing with chicken and Haze Pokemon here; the fact that Haze Pokemon are one of the few counters to Combusken doesn't necessarily make it overcentralizing.
I'm still not settled on an opinion yet but I think that for a Pokemon with a pool of counters as limited as Combusken's, the anti-ban side has to show that Combusken can be played around even without throwing some of its checks onto a team. For example, I can say that while Sawk has few harder counters, it isnt broken because it can be played around even without them and easily exploited with smart switching and teambuilding to ensure that if Sawk locks itself into a poor move, it gets punished. If the anti-ban side can prove that it is possible to play around Combusken without a hard counter like Haze / phazing Pokemon on their team, then Combusken isn't broken. I think the pro-ban side has a pretty convincing argument against this already and it would be nice to see some anti-ban arguments regarding this.
I've been playing a bunch of ladder matches using a Combusken Pass team, reaching rank 1 with relative ease, and from my experience it is just too good to be left in the tier.
All you need is one free turn to set up, which isn't too difficult to achieve since it can set up on so much of the metagame with its eviolite boosted bulk, and you can severely damage or outright sweep the opposing team by passing to the appropriate Pokemon. The threat of a +2/+2/+2 Pokemon like Kangaskhan or Feraligatr is simply too overwhelming for a lot of teams. Here's a replay to demonstrate: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-146012615. I got a free turn to set up with Combusken which allowed it to grab a bulk up boost as Archeops was sent in. Protecting next turn allowed Combusken to accumulate a free speed boost and from there it bulked up again so that Acrobatics from the Archeops only did 47%. This is a 110 base power, STAB-boosted, super-effective move coming from something with base 140 attack and it doesn't even 2HKO Combusken.
The best check to Combusken Pass is Haze but it can be exploited since you're pretty much forced into your Haze user unless you want Combusken to set up and the Combusken user can simply Baton Pass out as your bring it in. Combine this with a hazard setter such as Crustle or Omastar and the Haze user can be worn down rather easily.
I think the most broken aspect of Combusken is that it can simultaneously boost attack, defense and speed at the same time. This makes traditional methods of revenge killing pretty much impossible. Passing a +2 speed to something like Kangaskhan, for example, lets it outspeed every relevant scarfer. Most priority attacks in the tier are physical and so relying on priority to deal with Combusken Pass is unreliable as with a +1 or +2 defense boost they do pitiful damage. For example, in this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-145557959 my opponent had 3 powerful forms of priority from Gurdurr, Spiritomb, and Feraligatr and even the combination of the three could not take down my +2 Kangaskhan that was at 50% health.
All you need is one free turn to set up, which isn't too difficult to achieve since it can set up on so much of the metagame with its eviolite boosted bulk, and you can severely damage or outright sweep the opposing team by passing to the appropriate Pokemon. The threat of a +2/+2/+2 Pokemon like Kangaskhan or Feraligatr is simply too overwhelming for a lot of teams. Here's a replay to demonstrate: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-146012615. I got a free turn to set up with Combusken which allowed it to grab a bulk up boost as Archeops was sent in. Protecting next turn allowed Combusken to accumulate a free speed boost and from there it bulked up again so that Acrobatics from the Archeops only did 47%. This is a 110 base power, STAB-boosted, super-effective move coming from something with base 140 attack and it doesn't even 2HKO Combusken.
The best check to Combusken Pass is Haze but it can be exploited since you're pretty much forced into your Haze user unless you want Combusken to set up and the Combusken user can simply Baton Pass out as your bring it in. Combine this with a hazard setter such as Crustle or Omastar and the Haze user can be worn down rather easily.
I think the most broken aspect of Combusken is that it can simultaneously boost attack, defense and speed at the same time. This makes traditional methods of revenge killing pretty much impossible. Passing a +2 speed to something like Kangaskhan, for example, lets it outspeed every relevant scarfer. Most priority attacks in the tier are physical and so relying on priority to deal with Combusken Pass is unreliable as with a +1 or +2 defense boost they do pitiful damage. For example, in this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-145557959 my opponent had 3 powerful forms of priority from Gurdurr, Spiritomb, and Feraligatr and even the combination of the three could not take down my +2 Kangaskhan that was at 50% health.
I agree with the entirety of your post scorpdestroyer
NEEDING to run a hardcounter definitely isn't the case, I've personally run things like Circle Throw Poliwrath to great effect despite it being stopped by a pass into a ghost. Other people have suggested checks and counters throughout the thread (although there aren't really that many hardcounters)
The reason I said "if you have to run one of very few hardcounters it's overcentralising" was that Deej's argument read "just run haze Dragalge and you'll be sweet" to me, and my post was a direct response to that as opposed to a commentary on countering the chicken as a whole
Yeah it'd be good to have more discussion on playing around Combusken. However, I predict that these arguments are gonna be difficult to put across strongly as the diversity of pass recipients plays a huge part in playing around Combusken.
For the record, I lean towards the pro-ban arguments to a greater extent, but I certainly welcome and respect anti-ban arguments. My post may not have come across that way as I was responding to Deej's post directly
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