New and 'creative' moveset/EV spread thread Mk. 5

[GamesMaster]

Destiny bond may as well be used in situations where you are expecting residual damage to drain your remaining 1HP, so I don't really see how it is efficient to equip Gengar with a Focus Sash, especially when considering SR.
On the Scizor-Bullet Punch side of things, MYTICGar does a far better job of causing Scizor problems, and even Sub-Pain split is more efficient in dealing general damage plus you can break stall. Gengar, simply put, really enjoys that sub like few other pokemon.

And tbh I've never run into the anti-lead Machamp at all, especially these days with suicide/taunting leads so abundant. If anything, Choice Scarf is the set to worry about.

Check this month's Server Statistics. It just sounds like you haven't been active lately.

Concerning the Anti-Lead set, Zapdos, the first teammate I recommended with this set, can deal with whatever Machamp wants to throw at it bar Stone Edge, though Zapdos does have a small chance to survive the 2HKO with Leftovers and KO the sub and Machamp right back.

This isn't a great idea, as even the typical physically defensive Zapdos will be not only taking confusion (or a slightly more powerful 100 base Payback), but also will likely be taking SR damage and then consequently 48% - 56.9% from a 252 Stone Edge. This is a genuine chance to 2HKO without even factoring in possible confusion damage. On the Flip, Physical Defensive Zapdos doesn't have a chance at 2HKOing a 252/96 Machamp. Considering a Majority of Machamp run Stone Edge, I have to say this Zapdos "partnership" is a rather loose relationship.

 

[Ericcc]

Well it seems like you'll have a hard time setting up Rain Dance after the opponent already has a non-ending SS up... Just my thoughts. If it works well for you, great ;D

Wait, so is this indeed supposed to be a lead?


And @GamesMaster; maybe she doesn't use Shoddy (like me), so she doesn't care for those stats. Just sayin'.

 

[GamesMaster]

Well with all due respect I have to say that is incredulous.
*edited earlier post regarding Zapdos as a partener

 

[Ericcc]

Well wifi use does have similarities to Shoddy use, but you don't know the stats for wifi use; no one does.
I'm not saying that on wifi there's absolutely no lead Machamps, just saying that the Shoddy stats don't exactly correlate to wifi use.

Edit: agreeing with GamesMaster on the partner suggestion.

 

[GamesMaster]

Well wifi use does have similarities to Shoddy use, but you don't know the stats for wifi use; no one does.
I'm not saying that on wifi there's absolutely no lead Machamps, just saying that the Shoddy stats don't exactly correlate to wifi use.

You can't just choose to apply statistics where you want to make an argument. With regards to the OP about the Gengar, Ninja Kitty talks about typical counters/checks - TTar, Gengar, Blissey. You can't talk about the typical counters/checks if you don't know what people, in general, are running. Shoddy statistics are our only resource in this aspect, so we have to use those as a guide.
*Edit - I don't want this to turn into an argument or anything so let's just end it here. I've made my point and you have yours and I don't want anyone getting infractions =)

 

[Ericcc]

Yes, we're not really fighting anyone's argument here, so let's stop. Ahem.
I'm still on the "it won't work" side for that Gengar.
And the set maker hasn't responded to my question about if it's a lead or not, although I'm pretty sure it is...

 

[supermarth64]

The problem with it is:

1) If you're using it outside of the lead spot, you have to get rid of BOTH Stealth Rock and sandstorm/hail. If you're using it on a rain dance team, then that's two spots sacrificed (1 for Gengar and 1 for the spinner), which means that your team wouldn't be able to utilize all the rain dance sweepers/supporters it can use.
2) If you are using it as a lead, most people expect Counter already and it goes into a guessing game between Taunt and Counter.

 

[ninja_kitty143]

The problem with it is:

1) If you're using it outside of the lead spot, you have to get rid of BOTH Stealth Rock and sandstorm/hail. If you're using it on a rain dance team, then that's two spots sacrificed (1 for Gengar and 1 for the spinner), which means that your team wouldn't be able to utilize all the rain dance sweepers/supporters it can use.

Starmie loves rain dance support ;P

Wait, so is this indeed supposed to be a lead?

No, I used it early/midgame.

But if you're assuming lead, and if the lead is a Substitute Machamp, there is no Stealth Rock to worry about when Zapdos/Vaporeon comes in, as it won't be set up yet.

Look, I was just able to use it effectively once I figured out a good team to build around it. If you're not even going to try it, then why did I even post it here? I thought this was a place for people to try sets. You're also not even considering the fact that Taunt ruins so many would-be Gengar counters, and just any Pokemon that likes to set up at all is forced to swap. Made for great scouting (thus my early/midgame use).

 

[king0fbob]

Honchkrow Anti-Lead

@ Expert Belt
Ability: Insomnia
Nature: Naughty
32 HP/ 252 Atk/ 24 Def/ 200 Spd
-Brave Bird
-Sucker Punch
-Heat Wave
-Superpower

My friend has been running this antilead in an attempt to have a lead that can effectively hit the opponent's follow up Pokemon well or come back later in the game. I have seen it in action and it has been working wonders so far. He and I wanted to see what Smogon would think.

 

[TheValkyries]

I'm severely bored and this set isn't on site. I'm sure it's been thought of before, so it's neither new or creative, just out of the ordinary.

TrickScarf AntiDoll

@ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 HP/ 40 Def/ 216 Spe
-Trick
-Rapid Spin
-Stealth Rock
-Explosion

Concept: Tricks its scarf onto every lead, thus disabling it, then either spins or sets up rocks depending on the kind of support you need, then kersplodes. Suicide lead 101. Only interesting thing is its unique amalgamation of many lead concepts, while maintaining effectiveness.

Downsides: While it can take a purdy hit or two, it usually doesn't last long, as it's weaknesses to common attacking types hurts a lot. It obviously can't handle Roserade, and will have trouble with trick wars against other trick scarf leads. So it's a good idea to have an answer to both of those, be it a grass resist or a second Scarf pokemon (God forbid you use ScarfTran). Taunt also annoys this guy but it just means you get a free switch in.

Also: Scarf Machamp is lol. Carrying a Gengar or Lucario increases the lul factor.

 

[GamesMaster]

@Valkyrie - interesting, but what is your typical response to the likes of scarf rotom coming In to block your spin? I'm intrigued because it doesn't take advantage of bulk like forretress or particularly threaten anything on the switch in attempting to block the spin such as rotom taking a hydropump to the face from starmie. I'm guessing surprise factor is the greatest appeal to this set?

 

[Azlanslayer]

After some testing, i found out this is the best set for anti-lead gallade;

Gallade @ Expert Belt / Lum berry / Life Orb
Adamant Nature
252 Hp | 252 Atk | 4 Def
Moveset:
- Leaf Blade / Ice Punch
- Shadow Sneak
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake / Close combat

It work wonders against Many leads except Celebi, Metagross, Jirachi, Roserade and Skarmory. Earthquake will 2HKO Jirachi and Metagross if they SR turn one or Trick, which you will be winning, but if they use Attack first then Stealth Rock, you lose. You barely do damage to Skarmory

As for Roserade, if you run lum berry, Zen Headbutt + Shadow Sneak KOs Roserade and Leaf storm will do 58.2% - 68.8% max to 252 Hp/ 252 Atk Gallade, which Gallade survives and Koing back instead.

As for Celebi, its the best if your team partner is Heatran/Scizor to set-up Stealth rock or to U-turn.

Team Options

Rotom-H, Heatran and Gliscor and Superior choice.

Heatran can take hits from Jirachi while Koing back with his STAB Flamethrowers/Fire Blasts, outspeeding Metagross, you might want to use Earth Power because some Rare Metagross uses Occa Berry. As for Roserade, you can use the Resttalk Heatran set while scaring them off using Sleep talk. Scaring off skamory with his STAB Fire moves is Great.

If you choose Rotom-H, its the best option to make Gallade as sleep fodder against Roserade while Destroying them using Rotom-H's Signature move, Overheat (Celebi is the same except he doesn't make Gallade sleep). As for Metagross & Jirachi, use WoW Against them and prevent them from doing any damage to rotom, while 2HKOing them back with Overheat. Skarmory won't dare to face this guy, just Thunderbolt or Overheat

Gliscor, Simple, If Sleep powder misses, just TAUNT Roserade, preventing it from using sleep powder and Toxic Spikes, switch to Gallade, and let him do the rest. Same for celebi, except you taunt + toxic. As for Jirachi and Metagross, just Earthquake once Gallade dies from their attacks. When facing skarmory, Just taunt.

Counters

Something to take advantage of his Low Defence. Like Scizor, Metagross Etc.

Evs

Speed Evs are not needing because he won't need to be Outspeeding much things. Plus, which TYRANITAR STAYS IN ON GALLADE?

 

[Ericcc]

@Azlanslayer; I still fail to see why you're using so many HP EV's, but suggesting LO as a recommended item.
Also, Speed EV's are recommended so that the Gallade will actually have use mid-late game.

Anyway, Lead Gallade is already being discussed here.

 

[TheValkyries]

@Valkyrie - interesting, but what is your typical response to the likes of scarf rotom coming In to block your spin? I'm intrigued because it doesn't take advantage of bulk like forretress or particularly threaten anything on the switch in attempting to block the spin such as rotom taking a hydropump to the face from starmie. I'm guessing surprise factor is the greatest appeal to this set?

Yeah, being a UU pokemon, the surprise gets you by most of the time. I usually pair this guy with a TTar which Rotom does not remotely like seeing. But really any pursuit user can nab the ghosts.

I guess you could also run Shadow Ball instead of Explosion, but Explosion is so infinitely more useful that there's no point.

 

[Human]

Name: OU SwordPolish
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Solid Rock
Nature: Jolly
EV Spread: 52 HP / 252 Attk / 192 Spe / 8 SpD
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Rhyperior has incredible base defenses other than his lackluster Special Defense (115 | 130 | 55), so it can easily set up against the majority of the metagame with its base stats seeing the OU metagame is primarily physical. This means that it can easily set up a Rock Polish and with the EV spread it can outspeed +nature base 115s, most importantly Starmie. It can also set up a Swords Dance letting it OHKO or 2HKO the entire metagame basically and even a -1 Rhyperior using Stone Edge will be able to OHKO Gyarados all the time factoring SR damage.

It is recommended to use it with either Tyranitar or Hippowdon to set up Sandstorm if using Tyranitar it helps to OHKO Rotom-C which can OHKO, but if you get to +4 Speed which isn't too difficult on the first turn they normally attack, then on the switch out you set up again, and with great natural bulk, Rhyperior can set up to +4 and outspeed everything other than priority and can still OHKO/2HKO most of the metagame.

If you opt to use Lum Berry instead of Leftovers an EV spread of 252 Atk / 200 Spe / 56 SpD is recommended because 200 Spe lets it outspeed Scarfed Tyranitar after a single Rock Polish and the 56 SpD is to maximize bulk. This would have the complete intent of sweeping obviously. Also possible to use Rindo berry with this spread.

*If asked I will edit this post and put in some additional comments and damage calcs*

 

[Vratix]

have you considered a Lum Berry rather than Leftovers?

 

[Human]

have you considered a Lum Berry rather than Leftovers?

Personally I use it as an early game sweeper, where most physical attackers stay in and there are many switches, and not many things can use status on it seeing it will get Rock Polish up and normally be able to OHKO and if it can't it can still set up some SD to make up for burn damage and if Toxic was used it can still sweep 2-5 pokemon, I will add it as a slash though. I will put it in the additional comments with an alternative EV spread (252 Atk / 200 Spe / 56 SpD, which lets it outspeed Scarfed Tyranitar after Rock Polish and adds to its bulk).

 

[Joel]

Here's one that has just been working STUPIDLY well for me, however, this would just be for a one move update to an analysis that already exists. Please note that I am NOT saying that my moveset is better than the other options, I am only saying that my moveset IS viable for competive battling in today's metagame.

Trick + Iron Ball (Update)

Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamat
EVs: 236 HP/252 Atk/20 Speed
Moveset:
-Trick
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-Explosion/Stealth Rock/Body Slam

The idea here is to add some utility to this set. As oppossed to having a one time use (usually) moveslot using either Explosion or Stealth Rock, how about if after that Tricked Iron Ball (since with my expierence, the opponent will more times than not switch out), you try and cripple yet another Pokemon via the 30% paralysis rate from Body Slam (suppossing a Ghost tyoe wasn't switched in). Even if a ghost type does make the switch in, you didn't just Exlopde like the old set warns you about. If you can also supply Wish support (most likely from Vaporeon or Umbreon), this variant can come back in for some more fun later instead of having wasted itself (via Explosion). Wash, rinse, repeat with the hard hitting (potential) paralysis support.

At 30%, paralysis support via Body Slam is not always going to happen, but on a switch in (only taking into consideration the 48 OU legal Pokemon), you have MORE of a chance of hitting for any damage over Earthquake (There are 7 Ghost types which Body Slam won't hit, paired against 17 Flying/Levitate Pokemon that Earthquake won't hit, and 7 non-flying, non-Levitating Steel and/or Rock types that aren't very likely to switch in). With Explosion, you don't get a second chance (as stated in the above paragraph), and with Meteor Mash, Metagross' common counters (save for Swampert), will be more benificial being paralized, as oppossed to getting hit with Meteor Mash, since it's not too likely any Steel type not named Bronzong, and no Rock types will be switching into Metagross for any reason.

 

[Human]

Here's one that has just been working STUPIDLY well for me, however, this would just be for a one move update to an analysis that already exists...

Trick + Iron Ball (Update)

Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamat
EVs: 236 HP/252 Atk/20 Speed
Moveset:
-Trick
-Meteor Mash
-Earthquake
-Explosion/Stealth Rock/Body Slam

The idea here is to add some utility to this set. As oppossed to having a one time use (usually) moveslot using either Explosion or Stealth Rock, how about if after that Tricked Iron Ball (since with my expierence, the opponent will more times than not switch out), you try and cripple yet another Pokemon via the 40% paralysis rate from Body Slam (suppossing a Ghost tyoe wasn't switched in). Even if a ghost type does make the switch in, you didn't just Exlopde like the old set warns you about. If you can also supply Wish support, this variant can come back in for some more fun later instead of having wasted itself (via Explosion). Wash, rinse, repea with the hard hitting paralysis support.

Sounds more effective and better team support which is mostly what the Iron Ball Trick set is supposed to do.

 

[Morm]

Personally I'd rather K.O. an opponent with explosion than just paralyze them.

 

[Joel]

Personally I'd rather K.O. an opponent with explosion than just paralyze them.

And if a Ghost, Rock, or Steel type switches in, you KO....nothing. :(

With Body Slam (suppossing you get the paralysis), you give one (or more) of your teammates more room to set up for a sweep later in the battle. You still can't hit the Ghost types with it, but you have a 30% chance to cripple other Metagross, T-tar, Jirachi, Empoleon, and non-CB Scizor. It will also allow you to beat Infernape and non-Bulky Gyarados if paralysis sets in.

Sounds more effective and better team support which is mostly what the Iron Ball Trick set is supposed to do.

Yes, as noted, the Body Slam is suppossed to help with support. You Trick the Iron Ball, which is good. You paralize after that, which is even better. :)

 

[Human]

Personally I'd rather K.O. an opponent with explosion than just paralyze them.

The Iron Ball set is meant for supporting your teamates basically. You slow a pokemon down, force a switch, rack up entry hazard damage and with the update Body Slam can also paralyze and possibly rack up even more entry hazard damage.

 

[haunter]

Exploding on something like Hippowdon or Swampert can support the team way better than a 30% chance of hitting them with the paralysis status. Body slam's side effect is too much unreliable.

 

[Joel]

Exploding on something like Hippowdon or Swampert can support the team way better than a 30% chance of hitting them with the paralysis status. Body slam's side effect is too much unreliable.

Anyone that has battled competitively isn't going to make the trade off with those versus a Metagross. That would be such a noob move. They are going to either switch in something else that has low HP, or they will switch in something that laughs at the Explosion in the first place. Stealth Rock is more viable even then Explosion on the Trick + Iron Ball set. At least you have a greater chance at residual damage that way later in the battle.

You go ahead and let ScarfTran switch into that Explosion. ;)

I'll try to paralyze that same ScafrTran, and beat it out right with an Earthquake on the second turn.

 

[haunter]

lol, actually Hippo and Swampert are excellent Metagross' counters. I believe that when you trick your iron ball to something like Rotom they're just going to switch something in on the incoming EQ. And anyway you can't assume that they're going to sacrifice something, especially if you're playing this Metagross in the early stages of the battle.