Ladder Mix and Mega

[xJownage]

Dumping a quick theorymon because I lack the time to test it.

Azelf @ Red Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt

Lets make fat teams die. Seriously, nothing can stand to the onslaught of +2 fire blasts in harsh sun, even resists like bulky pdon are OHKO'd at +2. Psea Skarm dies to Thunderbolt, as does scizor without special investment after rocks. Sablenite Bliss is 2hko'd, but even then, it can just nasty plot again. Yet another great one-slot stallbreaker on paper, but I want to see this in practice first. If somebody wants to beat fat teams, try this - I can guarantee it will do that.


On another note, there are so many bulky type-changing setup sweepers in this metagame that setup spam is actually an incredibly effective strategy. Most setup sweepers also retain a large amount of utility outside of sweeping, or have great power right out the gate, which makes things a lot easier on offensive teams.


MaestroDeSWAG, there are plenty of ways to beat stall other than speed and mold breaker, and many of those mons are productive against offense. Absolite Manaphy is a beast against both playstyles, as is dual dance pdon (or just one dance, for that matter) and several others. I could theorymon tons of stallbreakers, as I did above, that would do well against offense in this metagame. Remember that stall lacks unaware in this meta, so anything with deception that gets a free turn to set up can sweep. Substitute users can force even more issues. Stall can only beat setup through phasing, so as long as you don't let your sweeper get worn down too easily, you WILL break through.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Going to agree with xJownage here, stall lacks Unaware which means it's reliable. When I played Inheritance I packed Unaware Cresselia and Unaware Suicune. Between those two they just blanket checked such a large portion of the metagame. Even if my opponent brought something unexpected I knew, unless it packed Mold Breaker or was able to hit both for super effective damage it probably isn't breaking through. In Mix and Mega you can't do that, you're restricted to blanket checking without being to passove. Stall has yet to win versus my offence team, and I didn't even prepare for it. When I lose it's mostly versus ate spam, and I really dislike that. It would be more fun and we don't have to ban pokemon

 

[xJownage]

While I agree with you about your points regarding stall, I disagree with several things you say. While without unaware, you have to check things without being passive, most teams use phasing to the fullest extent, and are generally effective at deterring setup sweepers. As has been pointed out, the bulk in this metagame is so massive that many of stalls mons can live boosted attacks from threats. Stall could easily beat a good offensive team, so I suspect you haven't been pitted up against a really good stall team. I have played plenty that have easily been overpowered, and there are a lot of those, but there are a few good stalls out there that have given me a run for my money. Honestly, the metagame is somewhat balanced compared to the way people are acting.

Honestly, -atespam is very easy to prepare for. Levitran checks pretty much all -ate users, aerilate metagross is a great cleaner and resists all -ates, etc... If you lose to -atespam, you aren't preparing for it. Me and Dr. Phd. BJ made a pair of teams that are really good, and they beat -atespam easily. What about pdon? Support don beats every -ate in this metagame, and offensive don can beat most of them. Prepare for -atespeed and you can beat it. Its honestly not that hard.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Dumping a quick theorymon because I lack the time to test it.

Azelf @ Red Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Fire Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt

Lets make fat teams die. Seriously, nothing can stand to the onslaught of +2 fire blasts in harsh sun, even resists like bulky pdon are OHKO'd at +2. Psea Skarm dies to Thunderbolt, as does scizor without special investment after rocks. Sablenite Bliss is 2hko'd, but even then, it can just nasty plot again. Yet another great one-slot stallbreaker on paper, but I want to see this in practice first. If somebody wants to beat fat teams, try this - I can guarantee it will do that.


On another note, there are so many bulky type-changing setup sweepers in this metagame that setup spam is actually an incredibly effective strategy. Most setup sweepers also retain a large amount of utility outside of sweeping, or have great power right out the gate, which makes things a lot easier on offensive teams.


MaestroDeSWAG, there are plenty of ways to beat stall other than speed and mold breaker, and many of those mons are productive against offense. Absolite Manaphy is a beast against both playstyles, as is dual dance pdon (or just one dance, for that matter) and several others. I could theorymon tons of stallbreakers, as I did above, that would do well against offense in this metagame. Remember that stall lacks unaware in this meta, so anything with deception that gets a free turn to set up can sweep. Substitute users can force even more issues. Stall can only beat setup through phasing, so as long as you don't let your sweeper get worn down too easily, you WILL break through.

Actually, the calc I posted just a couple posts back on manaphy clearly demonstrates otherwise. At +4, it isn't even a guaranteed 2hko against blissey. Ant that's not even accounting for the fact that many run calm mind. I just had a battle against a blissey, in which I tail glowed twice, and it used calm mind twice. I assumed that I'd be able to deal at least close to 50%, then was surprised when it did about a quarter. And I ran some calcs too; the max that a +4 manaphy can do to a +2 blissey is 27%. So, while it seems like manaphy should be able to overwhelm or w/ sheer power, it's actually not even vaguely close. And speed doesn't help overwhelm stall, obviously, I meant against offense. And my point was, speed is the one stat that, usually, will always have an apparent effect. Basically, if you are faster than your opponent, you will always outspeed them, even if it's one point. However, in mix and mega, speed can change w/ little to know warning, making attempting to sweep w/o priority a very risky deal against offense. Espeed helps w/this by lessening the impact of these sudden speed boosts, and allows offense to succeed w/o solely focusing on outspeeding the opponent. This indirectly helps against stall, by allowing offensive teams to focus more on power and somewhat less on speed.

And along w/ that, the Espeeders that are currently in the meta are not unbreakable by any means; they're relatively slow, so things that resist their Espeed can often outspeed and nuke them, they all have rather unimpressive bulk (bar zygarde and sorta entei), none of them have particularly impressive attack stats (the highest is 115, pre mega), and half of them are weak to SR, especially w/ Pinsirite. They don't completely centralize the meta, or even offensive teams, they just add a lot to offense, and so are a common sight. I'd even say that they aren't even S rank material- not just as a whole, but individually as well. Lucario is the best of them, imo, and after using it quite extensively, I'd put it at probably an A+. It's good, and it can destroy teams given the proper support, but it's not unstoppable. It reminds me of bellyjet Azu in a way; the only way for offense to beat it, aside from resists that can outspeed and ohko it, is strong faster priority, once it sets up. And let's not forget, it's bulkier by far than Lucario, for example, though that doesn't account for the HP cut. Water resists are harder to find than flying or fairy, too. The power output is about the same as Lucario after a Swords Dance, so while the comparison may seem inaccurate, it's actually pretty dang close. The two are monstrous given the proper support, but a good offensive team can usually create enough pressure that that support is difficult to provide. Also, it's not just beaten by other ates- Weavile is incredibly common and has began running feint to deal w/ the ates, as even w/ altarianite it can outspeed all atespeed users. The decrease in power from quick attack honestly is minimal, and it's worth it for the utility it provides.

 

[xJownage]

Sorry on the account of absolite mana, I was thinking and calcing slowbronite Blissey, which is also a common set. My point still stands, however, in that offense does not need moldy to beat stall teams. Charizardite X Gyarados does tons of work, lucarionite excadrill is unwallable outside of skarm, Pidgeotite Thundurus is really good even if it doesn't run taunt, Gengar can do a lot of work as well, etc. There are tons of threatening mons for stall teams, you just need to spread your wings and explore a bit. It is very simple right now. Don't forget that you won't have one mon that 6-0's stall with no opportunity cost - That doesn't happen in ANY tier. Offense can only have many mons that do well against stall, and eventually overpower the opposing team.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I sort of want to draw a correlation between talonflame and -fake speed. Talonflame in Linked before the choice scarf ban made the entire tier centralised around speed control, whoever was outspeeding and attacking first would win. You either spammed Protect + Priority, spammed Swords dance/nasty plot scarf mons or you ran Trickroom + memento. It was all speed and talonflame was the leading force. while I still think Linked is pretty bad and I'm still salty about talonflame, the council did ban Choice scarf, they added a choice clause which somewhat solved the problem. The problem was never that it was broken. Cresselia and Beedrilite were broken in Mix and Mega, they were centralising as well but the core issue was that it was broken. Cresselia had immense bulk and an ability that allowed it to mow through stall and offence alike while Beedrilite made pokemon with reasonable speed and power broken, like Weavile and Garchomp. They weren't like Talonflame, these pokemon are ones that are banned almost without discussion (quick banned), other mons who have been quickbanned in pokemonare; Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence and Blaziken(mega). They aren't contreversial and a quick ban is in order. In Linked talonflame was contreversial mainly because on paper it's not broken, to the unexperienced eye it's not broken. But when you play enough you shift towards a different mindset. It's not uncounterable, there were counters to talonflame albite unreliable. But there were counters to Mega Kangaskhan aswell... There were things that could handle Blaziken and Landorous-i. But they were banned because they were deemed unhealthy for the metagame. Their presence in the metagame diminished others immensely. This is why Talobflame was broken in my opinion, it's unrelenting ability to practically make several pokemon unviable. It had a 58% usage. If you were to bring Sceptile 58% of the time it would be deadweight, Aerial ace breaks the sub while brave bird kills. Yes, your regirock can switch in but that's your only pokemon that isn't raped by talonflame. You're caught with your pants down, predictable. When it wasn't banned I stopped playing Linked. In Stabmons fake speed was similar. You had few switch ins and offence became a game of "who can set up the fastest and spam extreme speed". I really like mix and mega, a lot. It's a great and fun metagame Ghoul King. But it also gives pokemon like Lucario 40+ attack, fairy typing abd pixilate. Not only is it powerful, it's unpredictable. The fact that you give then stab with Pinsirite & Altarinite means that any pokemon with Hyper voice/return can abuse it, I've even seen Snore crocube with Altarinite. There are no counters to Lucario, Entei and Zygarde. It's the trio of speed, power and bulk. And all of these can be ran on the same team, Glalite Lucario, Pinsirite Entei and Altarinite Zygarde. All of them 2HKO uninvested 100/100/100 so that should atest for their power. Skarmory isn't standing up to them, versus Lucario luke will get up a Sword dance and do 70% leaving it crippeled and unable to check the rest. Alomomona might be able to check Entei effectively but Zygarde can set up a sub and then coil up, remember: no unaware. It's highly effective versus stall. On offence both parties run espeed making it a contest of who can set up first. Is it broken? Yes in my opinion, but not in everyone elses. Is it unhealthy? You decide. If you think the metagame gains from atespeed by all means let me know

 

[frogstomperful]

Speaking of Regirock ...

Regirock @ Tyranitarite
Typing: mono-Rock, no change
Ability: Sturdy or Clear Body -> Sand Stream
Stats: 80/130/240/50/120/60 (0/+30/+40/0/+20/+10)
IVs, EVs, Nature: 31's, max Attack - max HP (?), point to Def/SDef (?), max Attacking nature ?

1) Stone Edge
2) Earthquake
3) Rest
4) Sleep Talk

Good bloody luck getting past this one. Yes, that *is* 80/240/120 bulk with a sandstorm boosting the Special Defense. Oy.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Speaking of Regirock ...

Regirock @ Tyranitarite
Typing: mono-Rock, no change
Ability: Sturdy or Clear Body -> Sand Stream
Stats: 80/130/240/50/120/60 (0/+30/+40/0/+20/+10)
IVs, EVs, Nature: 31's, max Attack - max HP (?), point to Def/SDef (?), max Attacking nature ?

1) Stone Edge
2) Earthquake
3) Rest
4) Sleep Talk

Good bloody luck getting past this one. Yes, that *is* 80/240/120 bulk with a sandstorm boosting the Special Defense. Oy.

A wall of calcs would be appropriate right here

 

[DarkeKnight]

252 Atk Altarianite/Glalite Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 164-194 (45 - 53.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizardite-X Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 222-264 (60.9 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Altarianite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Altarianite Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 75-88 (20.6 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ Atk Red Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock in Harsh Sunshine: 90-106 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Blue Orb Scizor Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 101-120 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Mewtwonite-X Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 186-222 (51 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

240 Atk Adaptability Lucarionite Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 196-232 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Well, I'm actually kinda underwhelmed here. A lot of things still 2HKO it even with 252/252+.

 

[SpartanMalice]

Cress wasn't quickbanned, it was playtested, well - it was used before we got an OMoTM ladder on main, back when we were battling in aqua and pandora, and used the old thread. Wasn't banned for the entirety of the meta prior to the main ladder. But I see your point. Dragonite on paper by itself isn't broken, Entei, by virtue of its 100 base speed, checked every other Pixispeed user due to resisting it and being faster. But each of these mons have their strengths. Dragonite and Zygarde are bulky in different ways, so even if they were vulnerable to opposing Pixispeed (read: Entei. Lucario is slower than Zygarde and doubt it could have one shotted Dnite), they were able to handle it with DDance/Coil and bulk, and Roost in the case of Dnite.

By virtue of its access to Swords Dance though, Lucario, at the very least - Pinsirite Lucario - has no real counters. Pinsirite's speed boost means two things: You either need to have your switch in ready and mega evolved already or you need to bring it in and hope that your mon lives the next hit, easier said that done. Fighting/Flying is perfect coverage but that's besides the point, Fighting/Fairy (while easier to handle) and Fighting/Flying have different counters making it harder to predict. And yes you can bring in a Levitran which is gonna take a ton of damage from Close Combat anyway, best chance is to live the hit and hope WoW or Lava Plume do the job.

With all that being said, I do hate Extremespeed (doesn't stop me from using Entei as I have no choice in this meta anyway, it's kill or kill be killed), but let's think about the implications of a possible ban for a second. Two offense stones stand out in particular: Lucarionite and Lopunnite. Lopunnite more or less offers perfect coverage for some mons and Lucarionite? With extremespeed gone, is it really that different from Beedrillite (sure Beedrillite offers more speed and humongous attack, but the Adap boost + speed alone is enough for many mons). I guess the blobs can be handled by strong fighting attacks and Mold Breaker. But even though I really want espeed gone from the meta, it might be a necessary evil keeping things in check. Take what from that you will.

 

[Mr155551]

Speaking of Regirock ...

Regirock @ Tyranitarite
Typing: mono-Rock, no change
Ability: Sturdy or Clear Body -> Sand Stream
Stats: 80/130/240/50/120/60 (0/+30/+40/0/+20/+10)
IVs, EVs, Nature: 31's, max Attack - max HP (?), point to Def/SDef (?), max Attacking nature ?

1) Stone Edge
2) Earthquake
3) Rest
4) Sleep Talk

Good bloody luck getting past this one. Yes, that *is* 80/240/120 bulk with a sandstorm boosting the Special Defense. Oy.

That set reminded me when I posted diamond storm regirock In stabmons too much bulk

 

[xJownage]

Honestly, I think there is a viable solution here. -atespam is incredibly annoying in general and has few viable counters, but one -ate is not too hard for a decent team to handle. This is where I think -ate clause or -atespeed clause may be useful for the tier.

 

[OM]

Honestly, I think there is a viable solution here. -atespam is incredibly annoying in general and has few viable counters, but one -ate is not too hard for a decent team to handle. This is where I think -ate clause or -atespeed clause may be useful for the tier.

So, We're taking a nod from BH and starting a -ate clause? If so, Ban The Primals y/y

 

[Ghoul King]

Honestly, I think there is a viable solution here. -atespam is incredibly annoying in general and has few viable counters, but one -ate is not too hard for a decent team to handle. This is where I think -ate clause or -atespeed clause may be useful for the tier.

So, We're taking a nod from BH and starting a -ate clause? If so, Ban The Primals y/y

I intensely dislike the idea of an -ate clause. I don't think it would fix the problems -atespeed presents, while having unpleasant knockoff effects. I get why BH did it, but Mix And Mega isn't BH.

I sort of want to draw a correlation between talonflame and -fake speed. Talonflame in Linked before the choice scarf ban made the entire tier centralised around speed control, whoever was outspeeding and attacking first would win. You either spammed Protect + Priority, spammed Swords dance/nasty plot scarf mons or you ran Trickroom + memento. It was all speed and talonflame was the leading force. while I still think Linked is pretty bad and I'm still salty about talonflame, the council did ban Choice scarf, they added a choice clause which somewhat solved the problem. The problem was never that it was broken. Cresselia and Beedrilite were broken in Mix and Mega, they were centralising as well but the core issue was that it was broken. Cresselia had immense bulk and an ability that allowed it to mow through stall and offence alike while Beedrilite made pokemon with reasonable speed and power broken, like Weavile and Garchomp. They weren't like Talonflame, these pokemon are ones that are banned almost without discussion (quick banned), other mons who have been quickbanned in pokemonare; Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Gengar, Mega Salamence and Blaziken(mega). They aren't contreversial and a quick ban is in order. In Linked talonflame was contreversial mainly because on paper it's not broken, to the unexperienced eye it's not broken. But when you play enough you shift towards a different mindset. It's not uncounterable, there were counters to talonflame albite unreliable. But there were counters to Mega Kangaskhan aswell... There were things that could handle Blaziken and Landorous-i. But they were banned because they were deemed unhealthy for the metagame. Their presence in the metagame diminished others immensely. This is why Talobflame was broken in my opinion, it's unrelenting ability to practically make several pokemon unviable. It had a 58% usage. If you were to bring Sceptile 58% of the time it would be deadweight, Aerial ace breaks the sub while brave bird kills. Yes, your regirock can switch in but that's your only pokemon that isn't raped by talonflame. You're caught with your pants down, predictable. When it wasn't banned I stopped playing Linked. In Stabmons fake speed was similar. You had few switch ins and offence became a game of "who can set up the fastest and spam extreme speed". I really like mix and mega, a lot. It's a great and fun metagame Ghoul King. But it also gives pokemon like Lucario 40+ attack, fairy typing abd pixilate. Not only is it powerful, it's unpredictable. The fact that you give then stab with Pinsirite & Altarinite means that any pokemon with Hyper voice/return can abuse it, I've even seen Snore crocube with Altarinite. There are no counters to Lucario, Entei and Zygarde. It's the trio of speed, power and bulk. And all of these can be ran on the same team, Glalite Lucario, Pinsirite Entei and Altarinite Zygarde. All of them 2HKO uninvested 100/100/100 so that should atest for their power. Skarmory isn't standing up to them, versus Lucario luke will get up a Sword dance and do 70% leaving it crippeled and unable to check the rest. Alomomona might be able to check Entei effectively but Zygarde can set up a sub and then coil up, remember: no unaware. It's highly effective versus stall. On offence both parties run espeed making it a contest of who can set up first. Is it broken? Yes in my opinion, but not in everyone elses. Is it unhealthy? You decide. If you think the metagame gains from atespeed by all means let me know

One of the big things I think -ated Extreme Speed brings to the table, in terms of being healthy for the metagame, is checking a lot of the really ridiculous setups sweepers out there that are much harder to check or counter than in Standard. Dumping Will O Wisp on the enemy is an excellent check for the physical setup sweepers out there... until you hit a Diancite user and just Burn yourself. I'm reluctant to blanket ban or cripple -atespeed, because I strongly suspect the meta would shift from "-atespeed spam" to "setup sweeper spam" and be even more match-up based and prone to 6-0s from the right 'mon.

I've been concerned about Lucario though. It's powerful, its Speed tier is acceptable, its typing is surprisingly perfect (I thought it would suffer from being Fighting/Steel rather than Steel/Fighting, but other than letting -aters check it better, it really doesn't), the Altarianite set is countered by different things than the Pinsirite set (Excepting faster -atespeed, which works on both equally well) and the only thing they have in common for walling the priority is Steel, which Lucario just hits with a monstrously powerful STAB Close Combat. Oh, and it has Swords Dance, just to ensure it can kill almost anything. I'd really intended to start a suspect on it earlier, but I've just had a crazy week.

So yeah. We're officially suspecting Lucario. Discuss it.

I don't think it's as omgwtfbbq broken as Dragonite was, but I think it has enough of the problem traits Dragonite has to be unhealthy. The main reason I didn't suspect it alongside Dragonite is the lack of Dragon Dance+its Speed tier means it could be checked by faster -atespeeders reliably... but in actually playing, its bulk is better than I'd expected, and it's hard to switch in on it. Plus, with Pinsirite, you may outright need Protect to be able to Mega Evolve to actually outspeed it! It can do stuff like

-Lucario comes in fresh on something you can't have stay in on it.

-You switch in Entei while Lucario Mega Evolves and Swords Dances.

-Lucario OHKOs you with Extreme Speed before you can move. (+2 252 Atk Aerilate Lucario (Pinsirite) Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Entei: 408-481 (109.9 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO) It doesn't even need hazard support or an Adamant nature!

which just kills the idea that you can reliably check/counter Lucario with faster -atespeeders.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Cress wasn't quickbanned, it was playtested, well - it was used before we got an OMoTM ladder on main, back when we were battling in aqua and pandora, and used the old thread. Wasn't banned for the entirety of the meta prior to the main ladder. But I see your point. Dragonite on paper by itself isn't broken, Entei, by virtue of its 100 base speed, checked every other Pixispeed user due to resisting it and being faster. But each of these mons have their strengths. Dragonite and Zygarde are bulky in different ways, so even if they were vulnerable to opposing Pixispeed (read: Entei. Lucario is slower than Zygarde and doubt it could have one shotted Dnite), they were able to handle it with DDance/Coil and bulk, and Roost in the case of Dnite.

By virtue of its access to Swords Dance though, Lucario, at the very least - Pinsirite Lucario - has no real counters. Pinsirite's speed boost means two things: You either need to have your switch in ready and mega evolved already or you need to bring it in and hope that your mon lives the next hit, easier said that done. Fighting/Flying is perfect coverage but that's besides the point, Fighting/Fairy (while easier to handle) and Fighting/Flying have different counters making it harder to predict. And yes you can bring in a Levitran which is gonna take a ton of damage from Close Combat anyway, best chance is to live the hit and hope WoW or Lava Plume do the job.

With all that being said, I do hate Extremespeed (doesn't stop me from using Entei as I have no choice in this meta anyway, it's kill or kill be killed), but let's think about the implications of a possible ban for a second. Two offense stones stand out in particular: Lucarionite and Lopunnite. Lopunnite more or less offers perfect coverage for some mons and Lucarionite? With extremespeed gone, is it really that different from Beedrillite (sure Beedrillite offers more speed and humongous attack, but the Adap boost + speed alone is enough for many mons). I guess the blobs can be handled by strong fighting attacks and Mold Breaker. But even though I really want espeed gone from the meta, it might be a necessary evil keeping things in check. Take what from that you will.

I will say, while seemingly the least broken on the surface, I think the one that potentially deserves a looking into is zygarde. Much like dragonite, it gains the covetted fairy/dragon typing, it has monstrous physical bulk, especially for a sweeper, dragon dance to help it with its speed, and (especially compared to the others), decent to phenomenal stats all around. It wastes the least in SpA, while being tied for the highest stat total. It is tied for highest potential speed, gets dragon dance, and w/ altarianite, gets disgusting 108/141/95 bulk. It is the hardest to check of all the atespeeds, as it isn't weak to birdspeed, at least ties the fastest possible pixispeed at +0, and it has immense bulk to help it tank opposing priority. At +1, feint Weavile can't even check it, as it can shrug off fake out and then outspeed and kill it. Its initial power is underwhelming, but it more than makes up for it. Lucario has 10 higher base attack, but prefers Pinsirite, so they actually have the same attack stat, when you take stones into account. It is left walled by flying/steel types, which isn't actually that big of a deal, especially as it is really most effective against offense. One of those "hidden gem" deals, imo.

However, I do not think that ates are relatively broken. They are no more centralizing than sablenite blissey, and no harder to beat. Sablenite blissey, and even more so cores involving it, are present on basically every stall team I've seen, and w/o a dedicated answer, you will lose. Every time. Checks to blissey cores are definitely there, and certainly viable as well, but if you aren't running one of these very specific checks, there's nothing you can do. They'll just pp stall you to death, if nothing. And sablenite prevents you from laying rocks down, so if your stealth rock layer is walled by blissey, they are free to switch as much as they want and just wall you to no end. I've kinda thrown a fit about these kinds of cores in the past, but recently I have found them to be breakable. But they are still nigh on impossibly to beat w/o setting aside a specific answer to them and ensuring that it is healthy enough to beat its targets, just like atespeed. SpartanMalice, I get what you're saying about a necessary evil, but I'm not sure that's exactly the best way to look at it. In OU, the idea of "broken-checking-broken" is extremely taboo, but in MnM, there are so many broken combinations, that it's basically standard procedure.

As for Lucario, I have used it extensively, and am firmly convinced it is not broken. It can sweep several member of the opposing team once its checks are removed, however, w/ Pinsirite it is weak to all opposing atespeeds, and if it uses Altarianite it is resisted by arcanine and is still weak to 2 of the three. And Ghoul King, concerning your comment about faster atespeeds checking it, entei doesn't outspeed it if jolly since it has to be adamant, so I'm not sure what that had to do w/ your point... and it is checked by the other atespeeds as they are faster and can hit it for super effective damage before it can hit them (so long as they've already mega evolved), and arcanine (probably the best check to it as far as ates go, imo) gets intimidate pre mega, so it can check it whether or not it has mega evolved yet. And again, it's not broken or overcentralizing compared to a lot of other stuff in the meta, and honestly, while it is very good, I wouldn't even say it's incredible. I have actually found that, on my teams that have used both, salamencite archeops puts in actually far more work. Lucario just isn't very powerful, and is therefore required to run swords dance to be effective, and your opponent has to be weakened or many things can tank Espeed, even at +2. Pinsirite Cobalion is a good example that outspeeds and destroys it (it's steel/flying, not fighting/flying), and honestly, a lot of stuff can. Any flying type that outspeeds (super easy to find) it and resists flying can beat it, as 1, it's pretty dang frail, 2, it doesn't have room for Stone Edge/Tpunch anyways, even if it could tank anything, and 3, unlike dragonite/zygarde, it can't boost its speed to let it outspeed and kill what ever resists it's atespeed. 110 isn't really anything to brag about in MnM. Pinsirite cobalion, for example, sits at 128, and can outspeed you even w/ an adamant nature.

Honestly, I'm surprised that this is even happening.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Special attackers seem to be less preferred to physical in MnM, but special attackers are really good here due to some really good stones.

For example let's look at Zoroark.

Zoroark is pretty frail but fast and powerful. It has a stat spread of

60/ 105 / 60 / 120 /60 / 105

making it a glass cannon. Let Zoroark hold Pidgeotite and it's stats change to

60 / 105 / 65 / 185 / 70 / 125

which gives it a whole lot more fire power on the special side.

Combine this with nearly perfect coverage between Night Daze / Focus Blast, Nasty Plot, and the speed to abuse U-Turn on anything slower.
Now you have a serious threat to an unprepared team. This set shreds slower teams that rely on Hippo/Skarm to wall physical threats and Blissey to wall special threats. After one nasty plot Blissey gets the 2HKO from focus blast. It's Illusion ability can be useful as well, so I'd wait until the right moment to reveal the mevo. Being able to come out and pose as another mon prior to mevo helps this glass cannon pick up nasty plots much easier. All it needs is one NP to do very large amounts of damage. No sludge bomb here for fairy types but u-turn is good; also, flamethrower or shadow ball can be used I just prefer u-turn utility.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

Special attackers seem to be less preferred to physical in MnM, but special attackers are really good here due to some really good stones.

For example let's look at Zoroark.

Zoroark is pretty frail but fast and powerful. It has a stat spread of

60/ 105 / 60 / 120 /60 / 105

making it a glass cannon. Let Zoroark hold Pidgeotite and it's stats change to

60 / 105 / 65 / 185 / 70 / 125

which gives it a whole lot more fire power on the special side.

Combine this with nearly perfect coverage between Night Daze / Focus Blast, Nasty Plot, and the speed to abuse U-Turn on anything slower.
Now you have a serious threat to an unprepared team. This set shreds slower teams that rely on Hippo/Skarm to wall physical threats and Blissey to wall special threats. After one nasty plot Blissey gets the 2HKO from focus blast. It's Illusion ability can be useful as well, so I'd wait until the right moment to reveal the mevo. Being able to come out and pose as another mon prior to mevo helps this glass cannon pick up nasty plots much easier. All it needs is one NP to do very large amounts of damage. No sludge bomb here for fairy types but u-turn is good; also, flamethrower or shadow ball can be used I just prefer u-turn utility.

While I agree that U-turn is super useful, it's kinda redundant w/ nasty plot, since one is meant to let you sweep or wallbreak and the other to hit and run. I'd run a different coverage move over one of them. Also you can't touch fairies.

Anyways, I agree that tspecial attackers seem to be underrated. I have often found raikou to put in as much or more work than any other single mwmbwr of my team. Manectite is an incredible stone as well, as it gives a solid boost to your special attack, a great boost to speed, and solid defense boosts (+intimidate). Manectric itself is completely outclassed, but Manectite is awesome. It is also great for calm mind sweepers, giving them ridiculous bulk on both sides after a boost. Who else is good- Latios is a force, like always (I think soul dew is best), thundy is awesome, noivern is surprisingly effective (It's basically guaranteed to get a kill of w/ altarianite- it's as good in practice as it is on paper), we've all seen how good gengar is, starmie sounds super cool, torn is great, idk what else. Honestly, though blissey is super annoying to special attackers, they've got a lot going for them. People haven't paid them as much attention because of the ates, imo, but they are awesome in this meta. They have some of the best stones for offensive utility, as gengar has shown.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

While I agree that U-turn is super useful, it's kinda redundant w/ nasty plot, since one is meant to let you sweep or wallbreak and the other to hit and run. I'd run a different coverage move over one of them. Also you can't touch fairies.

Anyways, I agree that tspecial attackers seem to be underrated. I have often found raikou to put in as much or more work than any other single mwmbwr of my team. Manectite is an incredible stone as well, as it gives a solid boost to your special attack, a great boost to speed, and solid defense boosts (+intimidate). Manectric itself is completely outclassed, but Manectite is awesome. It is also great for calm mind sweepers, giving them ridiculous bulk on both sides after a boost. Who else is good- Latios is a force, like always (I think soul dew is best), thundy is awesome, noivern is surprisingly effective (It's basically guaranteed to get a kill of w/ altarianite- it's as good in practice as it is on paper), we've all seen how good gengar is, starmie sounds super cool, torn is great, idk what else. Honestly, though blissey is super annoying to special attackers, they've got a lot going for them. People haven't paid them as much attention because of the ates, imo, but they are awesome in this meta. They have some of the best stones for offensive utility, as gengar has shown.

While I admit that on paper u-turn+nasty plot seem to contradict each other. They actually have okay synergy due to illusion. The thing is that Zoroark has a big enough move pool to actually make illusion quite useful at times. You might bring it in to make an illusion of your Scizor to threaten a Weavile out. Knowing your opponent has a bad match up as well as an Entei in the back you can just u-turn out maintaining the illusion, keep momentum, and keep Zoroark in the back until you know it has a chance to do work.

 

[Ghoul King]

And Ghoul King, concerning your comment about faster atespeeds checking it, entei doesn't outspeed it if jolly since it has to be adamant, so I'm not sure what that had to do w/ your point...

My point is: it doesn't need Adamant for the OHKO. It also outspeeds Entei if it's Mega Evolved with Pinsirite and Entei hasn't Mega Evolved yet, even if it is Adamant. Entei is screwed coming and going, and can't act as a switchin check/counter without leaning on Protect to get a turn to Mega Evolve... also, if Entei and Lucario both switch out, Stealth Rock being up is a lot more of a problem for Entei than for Lucario -Lucario can almost always switch in repeatedly, where Entei needs Wish and/or hazard management support to be able to count on the same, which means that even if Entei were a real check on Lucario (It's not) the act of scaring out Lucario would still tend to go badly for Entei: if hazards go up, Lucario hardly cares, but Entei finds it crippling.

And again, it's not broken or overcentralizing compared to a lot of other stuff in the meta, and honestly, while it is very good, I wouldn't even say it's incredible. I have actually found that, on my teams that have used both, salamencite archeops puts in actually far more work. Lucario just isn't very powerful, and is therefore required to run swords dance to be effective, and your opponent has to be weakened or many things can tank Espeed, even at +2. Pinsirite Cobalion is a good example that outspeeds and destroys it (it's steel/flying, not fighting/flying), and honestly, a lot of stuff can. Any flying type that outspeeds (super easy to find) it and resists flying can beat it, as 1, it's pretty dang frail, 2, it doesn't have room for Stone Edge/Tpunch anyways, even if it could tank anything, and 3, unlike dragonite/zygarde, it can't boost its speed to let it outspeed and kill what ever resists it's atespeed. 110 isn't really anything to brag about in MnM. Pinsirite cobalion, for example, sits at 128, and can outspeed you even w/ an adamant nature.

... Flying type that outspeeds and resists Flying is more narrow than you're making it sound, and Altarianite Lucario is only impressed by the Steel ones. Which don't resist Fighting and therefore don't like taking a Close Combat. (Bar Skarmory, whose bulk is excellent before a Mega Stone, has Roost, and has Whirlwind) Being able to wall Pinsirite Lucario does not mean being able to wall Altarianite Lucario, and Altarianite Lucario is not ignorable.

Among other points, you can't slap Aggronite onto random Flying types to take advantage of Roost and get the typing you want -only Tornadus and Noivern are Flying as their first type. You can slap Pinsirite onto random Steel types, of course, but that also runs into the switch-in issue. That Pinsirite Cobalion you mentioned?

252+ Atk Lucario (Altarianite) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion (Not Mega Evolved yet): 288-342 (74.6 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And if you're running enough bulk to survive that, you're not fast enough to outspeed when you Mega Evolve, so it just finishes you off with another Close Combat.

252+ Atk Lucario (Altarianite) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion (Pinsirite): 84-100 (21.7 - 25.9%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO <---will almost always finish off after the previous

How does Pinsirite Cobalion act as a reliable check to Lucario, again? Not even getting into the potential for you to be assuming it's Altarianite and, surprise! It's Aerodactylite and it murders your supposed check or counter. That first calc?

252+ Atk Tough Claws Lucario (Aerodactylite) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion (Not Mega Evolved): 366-432 (94.8 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Yeah.

Remember: a check or counter must be able to switch in reliably. It's not a reliable check or counter if it only qualifies after Mega Evolution.

 

[MaestroDeSWAG]

My point is: it doesn't need Adamant for the OHKO. It also outspeeds Entei if it's Mega Evolved with Pinsirite and Entei hasn't Mega Evolved yet, even if it is Adamant. Entei is screwed coming and going, and can't act as a switchin check/counter without leaning on Protect to get a turn to Mega Evolve... also, if Entei and Lucario both switch out, Stealth Rock being up is a lot more of a problem for Entei than for Lucario -Lucario can almost always switch in repeatedly, where Entei needs Wish and/or hazard management support to be able to count on the same, which means that even if Entei were a real check on Lucario (It's not) the act of scaring out Lucario would still tend to go badly for Entei: if hazards go up, Lucario hardly cares, but Entei finds it crippling.



... Flying type that outspeeds and resists Flying is more narrow than you're making it sound, and Altarianite Lucario is only impressed by the Steel ones. Which don't resist Fighting and therefore don't like taking a Close Combat. (Bar Skarmory, whose bulk is excellent before a Mega Stone, has Roost, and has Whirlwind) Being able to wall Pinsirite Lucario does not mean being able to wall Altarianite Lucario, and Altarianite Lucario is not ignorable.

Among other points, you can't slap Aggronite onto random Flying types to take advantage of Roost and get the typing you want -only Tornadus and Noivern are Flying as their first type. You can slap Pinsirite onto random Steel types, of course, but that also runs into the switch-in issue. That Pinsirite Cobalion you mentioned?

252+ Atk Lucario (Altarianite) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion (Not Mega Evolved yet): 288-342 (74.6 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And if you're running enough bulk to survive that, you're not fast enough to outspeed when you Mega Evolve, so it just finishes you off with another Close Combat.

252+ Atk Lucario (Altarianite) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion (Pinsirite): 84-100 (21.7 - 25.9%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO <---will almost always finish off after the previous

How does Pinsirite Cobalion act as a reliable check to Lucario, again? Not even getting into the potential for you to be assuming it's Altarianite and, surprise! It's Aerodactylite and it murders your supposed check or counter. That first calc?

252+ Atk Tough Claws Lucario (Aerodactylite) Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion (Not Mega Evolved): 366-432 (94.8 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Yeah.

Remember: a check or counter must be able to switch in reliably. It's not a reliable check or counter if it only qualifies after Mega Evolution.

Why would you EVER do that tho? You can randomly throw around close combat as regular Lucario too, and yeah, you'll kill some stuff, but you are WIDE open to be revenge killed. And you really can ignore altarianite Lucario, because it's just worse. It's slower, easier to wall, and is no bulkier physically, and less bulky specially. I don't see the merits of it at all, given fighting/flying' coverage is virtually unresisted, and is easily patched up by EQ / crunch. Flying and poison walls altarianite even harder, and the type combination isn't difficult to provide, though usually not preferable. And aerodactylite Lucario isn't fast enough to sweep in MnM, as it lacks stab Espeed to smack the fast, frail things that would beat it. And just because you can slap aerodactylite on something and break everything proves literally nothing. That was established long ago w/ lucarionite terrak (the two stones are very similar). And it's basically understood that you want to mega evolve many things right away so you can take the most advantage of what it has to offer. That situation assumes everything is going on lucarios favor; Lucario has already mega evolved, you caught the switch, and cobalion hasn't mega evolved yet. You did give cobalion max bulk, but that's just a drop in the bucket compared to how much Lucario has going for it, and that's not even a guaranteed ohko w/ a 120 BP super effective stab against a non mega evolved mon coming off of 140 attack. Congrats! Nothing else could ever do that! Anything can run a lure set- that applies in literally every meta. Why would you waste your aerodactylite on a mon that is so mediocre w/ it? This example just makes no sense to me.

 

[xJownage]

Mix-and-Mega Viability Rankings!!!!1​

That's right, we're doing this again.


S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are at the top of mix and mega's metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon are here as top threats and potential Bans due to using multiple megastones easily or just one very well.

S Rank

Mew (Ampharosite, Lopunnite, Pidgeotite, Diancite)

Primal Groudon (Red orb)

Manaphy (Sceptilite, Absolite)

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

Victini (Red Orb, Cameruptite, Pidgeotite)

Blissey (Sablenite, Slowbronite)

Terrakion (Lucarionite, Diancite, Pinsirite, Lopunnite)

Thundurus (Manectite, Pideotite, Altarianite)

Gengar (Absolite, Manectite, Diancite, Pidgeotite)

Zygarde (Altarianite, Pinsirite)

Arceus-Normal

A Rank:

Heatran (Latiasite, Absolite, Pidgeotite, Red Orb, Altarianite, Cameruptite)

Entei (Pinsirite, Altarianite, Aerodactylite, Red Orb)

Landorus-T (Lopunnite, Mewtwonite X, Altarianite, Salamencite)

Archeops (Aerodactylite, Charizardite X, Pinsirite, Salamencite, Lucarionite)

Arcanine (Salamencite, Altarianite, Banettite, Pinsirite, Red orb)

Suicune (Aggronite, Slowbronite, Sceptilite, Blue Orb)

Gyarados (Salamencite, Pinsirite, Charizardite X, Blue Orb, Aggronite)

Weavile (Glalitite, Aerodactylite)

Tornadus (Pidgeotite)

Metagross (Pinsirite, Aerodactylite, Diancite)

A- Rank:

Mamoswine (Lucarionite, Glalitite)

Keldeo (Lucarionite, Blue Orb, Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)

Diggersby (Medichamite)

Ferrothorn (Blue Orb)

Kyurem (Glalitite, Diancite, Aggronite, Absolite, Sablenite, Camerupite, Pinsirite)

Latios(Altarianite, Sceptilite, Manectite, Absolite, Lucarionite, SoulDew)

Noivern (Gardevoirite, Pidgeotite, Salamencite)

Hippowdon (Red Orb, Sablenite, Slowbronite)

Excadrill (Lucarionite, Pinsirite)

Zapdos (Manectite, Pidgeotite, Sablenite, Venusaurite)

Skarmory (Blue Orb, Venusaurite)

Xerneas

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Mix-and-Mega metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank

Blaziken (Blazikenite)

Tyranitar (Sharpedonite, Steelixite, Garchompite, Diancite, Pinsirite, Salamencite)

Staraptor (Lopunnite, Pinsirite, Mewtwonite X, Aerodactylite)

Snorlax (Banettite, Metagrossite, Altarianite, Salamencite)

Cobalion (Aerodactylite, Lucarionite, Galladite)

Garchomp (Gyaradosite, Diancite, Banettite, Scizorite)

Giratina (A)

Togekiss (Gardevoirite, Aggronite)

Slowking (Sceptilite, Slowbronite)

Slowbro (Slowbronite, Aggronite, Sceptilite)

Mewtwo (Mewtwonite X, Mewtwonite Y)

Gourgeist-Super (Aggronite)

Hoopa-Unbound (Manectite, Diancite, Absolite, Aggronite)

Jirachi (Metagrossite, Sceptilite, Ampharosite, Diancite, Manectite, Absolite)

Ho-Oh

Kangaskhan (Kangaskhanite)

B Rank

Mienshao (Lopunny, Altarianite, Pinsirite, Aerodactylite)

Porygon-Z (Diancite, Altarianite, Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)

Latias (Soul Dew)

Azumarill (Mawilite, Medichamite)

Rypherior (Heracronite)

Infernape (Banettite, Diancite)

Azelf (Red Orb)

Scizor (Blue Orb)

Breloom (Banettite)

Lugia

Volcarona (Red Orb, Sablenite)

Vaporeon (Aggronite, Sceptilite, Sablenite)

Meloetta (Slowbronite, Lopunnite, Manectite)

Yveltal

Genesect

Deoxys Attack

Arceus Ghost

B- Rank

Roserade (Red Orb, Scizorite, Pidgeotite)

Flygon (Pinsirite, Altarianite)

Giratina (O)

Salamence (Salamencite, Pinsirite)

Alakazam (Pidgeotite, Absolite, Manectite)

Bisharp (Metagrossite, Lucarionite)

Haxorus (Gyaradosite, Metagrossite, Aerodactylite)

Shaymin-Sky

Darkrai

Magnezone (Latiasite, Cameruptite, Diancite, Manectite)

Starmie (Pidgeotite, Blue Orb, Sceptilite, Altarianite)

Rayquaza

Krookodile (Blue Orb, Altarianite, Diancite)

Milotic (Sceptilite)

Heliolisk (Sceptilite, Manectite, Blue Orb)

Kyurem-Black

Kyurem-White

Deoxys Speed

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the current metagame.

C Rank

Hydreigon (Blastoisinite, Manectite, Gardevoirite)

Gorebyss (Banettite)

Kyogre

Conkeldurr (Gyaradosite, Pinsirite, Aerodactylite, Charizardite X)

Aegislash

Chandelure (Red Orb, Cameruptite)

Goodra (Ampharosite, Gardevoirite)

Dialga

Palkia

Dragonite

Rotom-Wash (Manectite)

Reshiram

Zekrom

Darmanitan (Diancite, Pinsirite, Altarianite)

Deoxys Defense

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Mix-and-Mega metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

D Rank

Shaymin (Lucarionite, Manectite)

Reuniclus (Cameruptite)

Drifblim (Banettite)

Diancie (Altarianite, Diancite)

Cresselia

Greninja

Meganium (Sablenite, Audinite)

Deoxys Normal

Arceus Steel


''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.

• None

BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in Mix-and-Mega, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.

• Dewgong

Rules:

• Post Intelligently. Your argument should consist of the pokemon's effectiveness relative to the tier's threats, and how it fits into a certain ranking.
• NO flaming over rankings. OM has had an issue before with some arguments getting a little heated, but I will ask a moderator to delete any post containing an argument that is remotely insulting.
• Usage/how common something is should not be used in your argument. Viability rankings isn't what mons are the most used, its what's the most effective.
• Eevee General is beautiful. This is an undisputed fact.

Notes​

• Thanks to Dr. Phd. BJ, AllJokesAside, Ransei, SpartanMalice, InfernapeTropius11 for helping me do the rankings!
  
• All ranks are up for debate atm. Nominate a mon if it is not listed, or nominate movements.
  
• Any and all nominations can be rejected for any reason if there is consensus it is a bad nomination.
  
• If you nominate a new mon, be sure to include ALL stones it can viably use, unless some stones are very niche in comparison to their ranking.
• Updates may be slow, please be patient; I will update this in bulk.

 

[GummyPotato]

Dewgong

 

[OrdA]

I've run that trough my Compendium Generator Program to fix up some images.

Html version: MnM_Viability_Rating_Long.html
Computer-friendly version: MnM_ViabilityRating_long.txt
BBCode for posting on Smogon: MnM_VR_Long_BBCode.txt

 

[xJownage]

Dewgong

BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in Mix-and-Mega, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.

• Dewgong

 

[jordanthejq12]

Um...can we have a point of clarification on Dewgong? Who's been pushing for it, and how have they made the thread shitty?