Milotic (OU Bulky Water)

[remlabmez]

It seems that people don't know the meaning of a support pokemon. There is a ton of good bulky water pokemon but that doesnt mean milotic is automatically out classed, it has its uses and I think it should be noted for OU play

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Noted yes. But when you can note this in its standard bulky water UU sets, which use essentially the same spreads and moves, I don't see why an entire OU set/analysis is necessary.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Except Vaporeon's Special Attack is far from good enough to pull this off. There's a reason Starmie maxes its attack and uses Life Orb to try to do this; because it has to in order to be a real threat with its STAB and SE moves. Vaporeon does far too little damage to stuff like Celebi, Shaymin, some Vaporeon, CM Suicine to justify having a slot on the team. Sure it does damage to offensive teams and stuff that's weak to it, but what Pokemon doesn't?

Ridiculous argument. Vaporeon's 10 extra base SpA doesn't make a hoot of difference in terms of 'hitting hard'.

Vaporeon Surf vs 0/0 Lucario: 53.4 - 63.0%
Milotic Surf vs 0/0 Lucario: 49.1 - 58.0%
2HKO for both.

Vaporeon Surf vs 4/0 Gengar: 54.0 - 63.6%
Milotic Surf vs 4/0 Gengar: 49.8 - 59.0%
2HKO for both.

Apart from Grass Knot users and mono-Water attackers, Milotic is harder to take out than Vaporeon for every Pokemon.

The 'Wish argument' is a shaky one at best as well, seeing as in the current metagame, Wish supporting is not a reliable means of healing for teammates or the Wish user unless the user walls an inordinately large number of Pokemon (read: Blissey). Vaporeon is not 'better' than Milotic, it doesn't outclass it. Since they both hit suitably as hard as each other, all Vappreon does is exchange the ability to sometimes heal a low health teammate and lower Grass Knot damage at the cost of:

• instant recovery (a massive difference),
• bulkier stats on both sides (Gengar's Thunderbolt does 52% on average to Vaporeon, 47% on average to Milotic),
• higher Speed (so Vaporeon takes 45% damage from U-turn from a Scizor that invests 4 more Speed EVs than it? Fun times),
• if the Speed isn't needed, the ability to take a Thunder Wave and end up with a higher defensive stat than Forretress/Skarmory,
• and a moveslot to check 'the other' threatening DDer and not allow it to set up on you.

1. Cresselia can hit a large portion of those SE. Not nearly all of them, but still. Cresselia doesn't suck because it has too little coverage. Cresselia sucks because it can't do anything else. (also pursuit bait, no recovery, etc)

Cresselia has a 75 base SpA and its 'coverage' is limited to Psychic/Ice Beam/Charge Beam, as opposed to Milotic's 100 base SpA and perfect coverage with Surf/Ice Beam/HP Electric. Cresselia can't OHKO Gengar or Infernape with its STAB Psychic without serious investment, doesn't have reliable recovery, and is weak to both Pursuit and U-turn. Milotic is both offensively and defensively more threatening than Cresselia. You really shouldn't compare them.
(also like to point out the irony in the fact that these two Pokemon were being endlessly compared in Milotic's UU suspect nomination as well, and it was concluded that even in a largely Sand-less metagame, Milotic's defensive capabilities were very similar to Cresselia's, and that it was Cresselia's CM sets that were being the problem)

2. Those Pokemon will more often than not be forced to switch out. The thing about utility counters that do nothing on a team but try to counter stuff is that they get beaten by the opponent doing the simplest move in the game, as Milotic's neither offensively threatening nor defensively threatening. Pointing out that Water / Ice / Electric hits a lot of stuff for SE is a completely moot point when the moveset barring Recover is something any water type in the game can learn, and the threats Milotic counters would be foolish at best to stay in on 4x SE attacks.

It has done its job. I guess other Salamence and Gyarados counters hit them with Ice/Electric-type Pursuits on their way out.

Sorry for the ott rhetorics, but I really find it ridiculous that people are debating Milotic's viability in OU, when not only is it used by a lot of top players, it was OU itself for quite a while. It is this kind of narrow-mindedness that had people dismiss Heatran to BL because of its 4x Ground-weak. I find it hard to believe so many reputable players are giving flimsy paper arguments as to why Milotic is apparently outclassed by other bulky waters. I can do the same thing for UU - Milotic sucks, it doesn't resist Fighting and can't learn T Wave like Slowbro/king, it can't Rapid Spin like Blastoise, it can't use Aqua Jet effectively like Azumaill. Milotic is a jack of all trades, a 'team glue' and a very effective one at that, and people need to realise that instead of giving singular paper reasons as to why specific other Water-types perform specific jobs better.

EDIT: I think a short separate OU analysis for Milotic wouldn't be that out of order. Hp Electric > HP Grass can be explained, Ice Beam's slashes can be removed, and specific threats and alternative EV spreads can be expanded on. If things like Nidoqueen, Walrein and Feraligatr are getting OU analyses, I don't see why we should force OU comments for a Pokemon that has more usage than all of them into an already quite extensive UU analysis.

 

[cim]

Ridiculous argument. Vaporeon's 10 extra base SpA doesn't make a hoot of difference in terms of 'hitting hard'.

Vaporeon Surf vs 0/0 Lucario: 53.4 - 63.0%
Milotic Surf vs 0/0 Lucario: 49.1 - 58.0%
2HKO for both.

Vaporeon Surf vs 4/0 Gengar: 54.0 - 63.6%
Milotic Surf vs 4/0 Gengar: 49.8 - 59.0%
2HKO for both.

Apart from Grass Knot users and mono-Water attackers, Milotic is harder to take out than Vaporeon for every Pokemon.

Except I never said any of that as a reason why Vaporeon was better! Ever. Not once.

The 'Wish argument' is a shaky one at best as well, seeing as in the current metagame, Wish supporting is not a reliable means of healing for teammates or the Wish user unless the user walls an inordinately large number of Pokemon (read: Blissey). Vaporeon is not 'better' than Milotic, it doesn't outclass it. Since they both hit suitably as hard as each other, all Vappreon does is exchange the ability to sometimes heal a low health teammate and lower Grass Knot damage at the cost of:

• instant recovery (a massive difference),
• bulkier stats on both sides (Gengar's Thunderbolt does 52% on average to Vaporeon, 47% on average to Milotic),
• higher Speed (so Vaporeon takes 45% damage from U-turn from a Scizor that invests 4 more Speed EVs than it? Fun times),
• if the Speed isn't needed, the ability to take a Thunder Wave and end up with a higher defensive stat than Forretress/Skarmory,
• and a moveslot to check 'the other' threatening DDer and not allow it to set up on you.

Teams that don't wish to use Wish have no use for Vaporeon over Suicune, so I honestly think Wish is the reason to use Vaporeon. The Wish argument isn't shaky in my mind at all, since I assumed there's basically no reason to use Vaporeon over Suicune if not for it (well water absorb is cool too).

It has done its job. I guess other Salamence and Gyarados counters hit them with Ice/Electric-type Pursuits on their way out.

The previous poster listed dozens of Pokemon and argued that Milotic was viable because of this abundance. You're taking my argument out of context. Yes, Milotic does have the benefit of forcing Salamence to Outrage and Gyarados to just switch out again.

Sorry for the ott rhetorics, but I really find it ridiculous that people are debating Milotic's viability in OU, when not only is it used by a lot of top players, it was OU itself for quite a while.

I find it a bit ridiculous that you're citing Milotic being OU in DPP as proof of how absurd my argument is, while completely ignoring that the last time Milotic was OU was when Hypnosis had 70% accuracy. I'm not saying you don't have a valid point, but that's a pretty big detail to leave out.

I generally adopt SDS's opinion on this issue. A paragraph in the UU set on "this can work in OU because of this niche" is adequate. A full analysis would be appropriate if it was remarkably better than comparable OUs, when I think it is "just" another option that can often be substituted for them, or used over them if you need Salamence + Gyarados + Recover + Water type (instead of Porygon2), but a full analysis just for that seems kinda annoying.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Ridiculous argument. Vaporeon's 10 extra base SpA doesn't make a hoot of difference in terms of 'hitting hard'.

Vaporeon Surf vs 0/0 Lucario: 53.4 - 63.0%
Milotic Surf vs 0/0 Lucario: 49.1 - 58.0%
2HKO for both.

Vaporeon Surf vs 4/0 Gengar: 54.0 - 63.6%
Milotic Surf vs 4/0 Gengar: 49.8 - 59.0%
2HKO for both.

Apart from Grass Knot users and mono-Water attackers, Milotic is harder to take out than Vaporeon for every Pokemon.

The 'Wish argument' is a shaky one at best as well, seeing as in the current metagame, Wish supporting is not a reliable means of healing for teammates or the Wish user unless the user walls an inordinately large number of Pokemon (read: Blissey). Vaporeon is not 'better' than Milotic, it doesn't outclass it. Since they both hit suitably as hard as each other, all Vappreon does is exchange the ability to sometimes heal a low health teammate and lower Grass Knot damage at the cost of:

• instant recovery (a massive difference),
• bulkier stats on both sides (Gengar's Thunderbolt does 52% on average to Vaporeon, 47% on average to Milotic),
• higher Speed (so Vaporeon takes 45% damage from U-turn from a Scizor that invests 4 more Speed EVs than it? Fun times),
• if the Speed isn't needed, the ability to take a Thunder Wave and end up with a higher defensive stat than Forretress/Skarmory,
• and a moveslot to check 'the other' threatening DDer and not allow it to set up on you.

Cresselia has a 75 base SpA and its 'coverage' is limited to Psychic/Ice Beam/Charge Beam, as opposed to Milotic's 100 base SpA and perfect coverage with Surf/Ice Beam/HP Electric. Cresselia can't OHKO Gengar or Infernape with its STAB Psychic without serious investment, doesn't have reliable recovery, and is weak to both Pursuit and U-turn. Milotic is both offensively and defensively more threatening than Cresselia. You really shouldn't compare them.
(also like to point out the irony in the fact that these two Pokemon were being endlessly compared in Milotic's UU suspect nomination as well, and it was concluded that even in a largely Sand-less metagame, Milotic's defensive capabilities were very similar to Cresselia's, and that it was Cresselia's CM sets that were being the problem)



It has done its job. I guess other Salamence and Gyarados counters hit them with Ice/Electric-type Pursuits on their way out.

Sorry for the ott rhetorics, but I really find it ridiculous that people are debating Milotic's viability in OU, when not only is it used by a lot of top players, it was OU itself for quite a while. It is this kind of narrow-mindedness that had people dismiss Heatran to BL because of its 4x Ground-weak. I find it hard to believe so many reputable players are giving flimsy paper arguments as to why Milotic is apparently outclassed by other bulky waters. I can do the same thing for UU - Milotic sucks, it doesn't resist Fighting and can't learn T Wave like Slowbro/king, it can't Rapid Spin like Blastoise, it can't use Aqua Jet effectively like Azumaill. Milotic is a jack of all trades, a 'team glue' and a very effective one at that, and people need to realise that instead of giving singular paper reasons as to why specific other Water-types perform specific jobs better.

EDIT: I think a short separate OU analysis for Milotic wouldn't be that out of order. Hp Electric > HP Grass can be explained, Ice Beam's slashes can be removed, and specific threats and alternative EV spreads can be expanded on. If things like Nidoqueen, Walrein and Feraligatr are getting OU analyses, I don't see why we should force OU comments for a Pokemon that has more usage than all of them into an already quite extensive UU analysis.

Perhaps the most valuable post in this entire topic.
Well it's out of my hands at this point, whether or not an analysis is made, but I'm happy the issue was brought up.

I've seen similar problems--when pokemon go down a tier, we shouldn't just delete any mention of them having ever existed in it and deem it useless. Tiers reflect usage not power!

Although, Milotic, itself, is a rare example of a UU pokemon whose movesets work for it in both UU and OU.

 

[Warped Worlds]

I am glad to see this topic, since I feel that Milotic is one of the more underappreciated/undervalued pokemon in the current metagame.

It does take alot of guts to make an analysis of a lower tiered pokemon simply because of how overlooked some of them can be, and they are prone to being put down as outclassed/or not up to par with the standards.

As for the spread, I was thinking something very similar to the Rest/Talk Gyara set. 244HP/252Def/12Spe. 12 Speed EVs outrun base 80 Speed Pokémon who linger around the 200 Speed mark, which is what Rest/Talk Gyara runs. (They have the same speed stat.)

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Nidoqueen, Feraligatr, and Walrein have specific OU niches (best fighting counter, SDing water-type, abomasnow abuse candidate), which is why they get full OU analyses. Milotic has no such thing. It has no real niche that sets it apart from other OU Water-types (don't bother saying Recover, I don't buy that as being a "niche"), and for the most part, its spreads and movesets are identical.

Also, why would I rather run ResTalk Milotic than Suicune? Suicune can pull off the "Boosting Sweeper" or the "Annoying as fuck Roarer" while Sleep Talking, all while abusing Pressure to PP stall the hell out of opponents. Milotic has to pick between either Ice Beam (setup bait for Gyara and friends) or HP Electric (setup bait for Dragons and dead weight against Grass-types).

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

It's funny that you mention Pressure when Suicune would kill to have Marvel Scale, which when sleeping, assures Milotic has superlative defenses-- (those pp stall too) again, Vaporeon syndrome, you have to choose between Surf and Ice Beam or Hidden Power Electric--suck it up and pick whichever coverage works for your team.

 

[shrang]

Milotic has no such thing. It has no real niche that sets it apart from other OU Water-types (don't bother saying Recover, I don't buy that as being a "niche"), and for the most part, its spreads and movesets are identical.

Recover itself doesn't allow it to have its own niche, but the spare moveslot does. Milotic has the niche of "OU Bulky Water that can check a whole bunch of threats that has reliable recovery". What other bulky Water does that in OU?? Suicune can't, Swampert can't, Vaporeon comes close but doesn't have the "reliable recovery" (Wish is good, but nothing on Recover) and not being able to check as many threats, and not being as bulky. Milotic, unlike Suicune, Swampert, Gyarados or Vaporeon, can switch into multitude of threats and force it out while Recovering its health. Picture MixMence. You just switched Vaporeon into Draco Meteor. Vaporeon is going to die pretty much everything next turn or any other turn it happens to switch in later because Wish requires Vappy to wait. Milotic can take a DM, switch to a Steel while Mence Outrages for the kill, come back later on a slower opponent and Recover off the damage. This is not mention if you switch Milotic into Thunder Wave you're getting the bulkiest Water in OU.

However, I agree RestTalk isn't a good set to run on Milotic because Recover + Coverage is the reason to use Milotic in the first place. Suicune does the RestTalk thing better, there shouldn't be any argument on that.

 

[Philip7086]

I approve this under the condition that you add a paragraph in AC for the extra Calm spread Panamaxis provided in his post. Once the author agrees to this, I will make my approval official.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It's funny that you mention Pressure when Suicune would kill to have Marvel Scale, which when sleeping, assures Milotic has superlative defenses-- (those pp stall too) again, Vaporeon syndrome, you have to choose between Surf and Ice Beam or Hidden Power Electric--suck it up and pick whichever coverage works for your team.

Are you kidding?

Pressure is part of what makes Suicune so good, since it can just PP stall all day long. It's what allows Suicune to win one-on-one against Vaporeon, since it can outstall it any day of the week with Pressure. On top of that, it allows Suicune to chew through Fire Blast's limited PP for Heatran, as well as other similar attacks. Not to mention the fact that Milotic MUST be sleeping to gain the benefits of Marvel Scale, which means that if it doesn't get an opportunity to Rest, it's losing its only "benefit" compared to Suicune.

As for the Vaporeon comparison, the lack of coverage is MUCH more notable while asleep. Roar is superior to both options anyway, since it offers the same "coverage" while also giving Vaporeon the ability to scout and force Gyarados/Salamence to come in later and take even more SR damage.

Also:

an exaggerated expression (usually of praise)

Normally I'd say you used the wrong word here, but it seems fairly fitting given the argument.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I approve this under the condition that you add a paragraph in AC for the extra Calm spread Panamaxis provided in his post. Once the author agrees to this, I will make my approval official.

I agree! I will get around to that tomorrow...

Of the highest kind, quality, or order; surpassing all else or others; supreme; extreme:

I think I have enough support to do this.

 

[Towelie]

Suicune doesn't need Marvel Scale at all... It already has ridiculous defenses. The only unboosted physical shit that 2hkos it is like... Brelooms seed bomb, CB Outrage from Mence and Dnite... and Explosion from some things. (Heatran and Maggy's boom don't even come close.) Pressure is also what helps it beat stall once stalls win condition is dead or has tricked it's item away.

 

[cim]

And I will ignore anything that fails to contribute to this write-up!

Yeah, believe it or not, criticism is a contribution too.

Honestly I think you're just looking for confirmation rather than having an open mind to the topic. Your posts don't seem to have any grasp of the issue we have with the writeup (no, it's not because Milotic is UU, and it never has been!). I'm a little concerned about that...

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Yeah, believe it or not, criticism is a contribution too.

Honestly I think you're just looking for confirmation rather than having an open mind to the topic. Your posts don't seem to have any grasp of the issue we have with the writeup (no, it's not because Milotic is UU, and it never has been!). I'm a little concerned about that...

Criticism of the write-up? I thought the last three pages were bashing the pokemon.

I'm a little concerned about even trying at this point because I have 3/4 of support, but 1/4 would rather abort the mission then help it succeed.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Pardon me, but Quality Control's job is deciding whether or not the mission is even worth embarking on. At any rate, ignoring valid criticism is unacceptable, even if that criticism is of the Pokemon you're writing up rather than the set itself. If there's invalid criticism being flung around, it will be taken care of (see the Scarf Scizor writeup thread), but that doesn't give you carte blanche to ignore criticism you don't think is "helping the set."

In any case, I'm still on the fence about "Recover + 3 Attack" as-is, but there's no chance of getting clearance for ResTalk or the LO Tank. The only reason Milotic even has a chance is because it has the niche of being able to run 3 attacks without sacrificing recovery. Giving that up is the worst idea ever.

This is not an official rejection, obviously, but it's not an approval either.

 

[Philip7086]

Don't talk about ignoring any posts please. All posts, be it criticism or not, are helpful. Those that don't contribute will be deleted or infracted. If people have objections, they can be valid, and should possibly even be addressed in the analysis. Because of that, you shouldn't be ignoring ANY post in this topic.

Anyways...

Or

Approved (1/3)

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Post added!

Okay, I apologize for outright ignoring the criticisms... any argument is doomed if it does not consider the other side.

I will try my best to address everybody's comments and continue testing this moveset. It would benefit everybody to do the same.

EDIT: Toxic will be getting a slash next to ice beam because Salamence is no longer of this tier.

 

[panamaxis]

As Salamence is Uber can we please consider Surf Recover Haze Toxic because I'm not really seeing how useful Ice Beam is now. Offensive Suicune, Kingdra (it sucks having to break subs with surf but it can't beat you without a crit if you haze every time it DDs and eventual confusion damage helps you anyway), Non-Taunt Gyarados, (physical ape), gengar (without tbolt, subsplit is more popular than tbolt nowadays anyway), metagross (LO agility can be recover stalled 51.4% - 60.6% or just haze the agility if that is a better thing to do considering the circumstances) Scarf or Mix Flygon are all beaten by this set. (That's with max hp/def bold) This is definitely something that's setting it apart from other bulky waters and I think Haze/Toxic is probably a better combination then Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric with Salamence gone. There are probably two main reasons against this which is taunt gyarados and DDnite (offensive ones anyway, not those specially defensive dancers which you will beat). Food for thought anyway.

Edit: Actually Hidden Power Electric could work over toxic if you 100% wanted to take gyarados.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I think either Surf/Hidden Power Electric/Haze/Recover OR Surf/Hidden Power Electric/Toxic/Recover could be of use. Flygon and Dragonite are still reasons why Ice Beam should still be considered, but most certainly I think that Milotic is still a viable option for OU. Haze + Hidden Power Electric would ruin Offensive Suicune, no?

 

[Towelie]

Haze does give Milotic a niche, so i definitely think thatd be a much more viable set that sets it apart from other Bulky Waters. Flygon and Dragonite are unnecessary because Flygon hits like a little bitch and Haze beats DD Nite. On to offensive Cune, haze + toxic kills it quicker so hp electric is unnecessary. TauntGyara beats its w/o hp electric so that would be it's only use imo.

 

[panamaxis]

Yeah, Milotic doesn't need Ice Beam to kill Flygon though, I think only CB can 2HKO it. @ Cipher either toxic haze or haze hidden power will beat cune yeah, it just depends how paranoid you are about taunt gyarados imo because disregarding taunt gyarados (and I suppose resttalk if that's a massive pain to you) toxic is better.

Edit: true, although milotic can toxic it back.

 

[Towelie]

Actually, toxic stall flygon beats milotic without ice beam, but its not popular at all. just thought i'd point that out.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

Mirror Coat makes Milotic a good counter to Calm Mind Suicune with 2-3 boosts. I know this from experience (I, unfortunately, was using the Suicune).

 

[cim]

So, uh, since Salamence is gone, does Milotic's tiny tiny niche go away?

I'm completely serious.