Dracozolt would need a suspect test. Unburden would double speed after each item used. This isn't too broken, since more items + unburden means less moves (and therefore less coverage), and a simple roar, whirlwind, dragon tail, red card, etc. ruins a double-unburden setup.
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Project Metagame Workshop (OM Submissions CLOSED)
- Thread starter drampa's grandpa
- Start date
- Status
Plague von Karma
Banned deucer.
Heya, I've been experimenting with something for a PS Server I work on. It's almost all coded, but there's a lot of questions and such. I was told this would qualify as an OM rather than Pet Mod, so here I am!
Metagame Premise
RBY Doubles
Double Battles were first introduced in Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire, and alongside the mechanical changes, many moves already in previous generations were tweaked to work with this. I thought it would be interesting to see how RBY would work in a Doubles setting, given the massive differences in mechanics.
RBY makes for a fairly interesting game with a Doubles setting added. As such, there wouldn't be any slates or anything. In this OM, all moves that become spread moves in Gen 3 would regain those effects (Earthquake targets everyone, Blizzard targets both foes, etc). While many conventional strategies (Screens, Weather, etc) are removed, there's still quite a bit to look at. You have Super Fang Raticate who suddenly becomes amazing support, there are Thunder Wave and String Shot for speed control, hell Haze can become an interesting niche pick. Plus, Growl and Tail Whip can be used to exploit stat reapplication with Burns and Paralysis! This also helps make Mist a somewhat relevant choice to prevent statdrops from happening.
To remain faithful to the progression of Doubles as a battle format, I believe Gen 3 Doubles Mechanics are best.
In terms of ruleset, I'm thinking a standard Doubles OU ruleset applied to RBY is best.
Potential bans and threats:
I'm 90% sure that partial trapping (Wrap, etc) would be banned for them disabling a Pokemon for many turns, allowing for some fairly obnoxious strategies. It feels like it would be very centralising, and from my testing, it has been. Sleep also seems a bit dumb, but Sleep Clause seems as if it would balance it out enough.
So some potential new threats...
Articuno has the strongest Blizzard in the game, and it only gets better when it can hit both opponents with a chance to Freeze. Avoiding Earthquake and being incapable of becoming Frozen is a nice benefit too. I can see Articuno cleaning up games very well. It should look out for Rock Slide, though. It also gets Mist and is the fastest user of it.
Golduck and Slowbro can become pretty interesting picks, as coupled with a Thunder Wave user, you can get a stat reapplication right off the bat, making for good speed control. The addition of a multi-targeting Surf also makes them threatening sweepers. I think either could be used in Doubles, as Golduck's Speed is enough to warrant consideration over Slowbro unlike in typical RBY OU.
Given Razor Leaf becomes a spread move in later generations, Venusaur and Victreebel would become pretty interesting. A spread move that almost always crits already sounds pretty great. I think Venusaur may edge it out for having higher speed, allowing for a faster Sleep option.
Being the only Super Fang user in a pretty bulky format, Raticate sounds as though it would be a pretty good support pick. It's got fairly decent Speed to benefit this, though it's frail as hell and would likely crumble to something like Starmie.
Multi-targeting Haze sounds interesting enough to consider Vaporeon. It's not as strong as something like Lapras or Starmie though, so I'm not sure if it would be a staple or anything. It's also one of the few Pokemon to get Mist, along with Articuno and Lapras, so that's a potential niche there too.
Butterfree and Beedrill are the only fully evolved Pokemon to get String Shot, which would lower both opponent's Speed by 1 stage given the rules I'm putting forward (use Gen 1 effects, but multi-targeting from later gens). This gives them a minor niche in the Speed control department. Bubble could see minor use from Blastoise, Seadra, Poliwrath or Kingler, but I don't think it'd be justifiable over something like Thunder Wave.
I think some regular OU staples would become worse, though.
While it gains multi-targeting STABs and has the best Earthquake in the game, I don't think Rhydon would hold up too well given Surf and Blizzard are likely going to be everywhere. Gang attacking also seems like a pressing issue. I can see it being used to stop Thunder Wave though, which I think will be quite common.
Earthquake is likely to see a lot of play as it does in later generations, and since Gengar can't float, I think it'll face some pretty tough competition. It's not exactly frail on the special side in RBY though, so it may be able to stand up and fight.
Questions for the community:
Metagame Premise
RBY Doubles Double Battles were first introduced in Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire, and alongside the mechanical changes, many moves already in previous generations were tweaked to work with this. I thought it would be interesting to see how RBY would work in a Doubles setting, given the massive differences in mechanics.
RBY makes for a fairly interesting game with a Doubles setting added. As such, there wouldn't be any slates or anything. In this OM, all moves that become spread moves in Gen 3 would regain those effects (Earthquake targets everyone, Blizzard targets both foes, etc). While many conventional strategies (Screens, Weather, etc) are removed, there's still quite a bit to look at. You have Super Fang Raticate who suddenly becomes amazing support, there are Thunder Wave and String Shot for speed control, hell Haze can become an interesting niche pick. Plus, Growl and Tail Whip can be used to exploit stat reapplication with Burns and Paralysis! This also helps make Mist a somewhat relevant choice to prevent statdrops from happening.
To remain faithful to the progression of Doubles as a battle format, I believe Gen 3 Doubles Mechanics are best.
- Pokemon switch out immediately after fainting.
- Spread move damage is reduced by 50% rather than 25%.
- Surf targets both opponents; allied Pokemon is unharmed.
In terms of ruleset, I'm thinking a standard Doubles OU ruleset applied to RBY is best.
- Sleep Clause: Limit one foe put to sleep.
- Freeze Clause: Limit one foe frozen.
- Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokémon.
- OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned.
- Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned.
- Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned.
- This also comes with a Mewtwo and Mew ban, as well as RBY Desync Patches (Psywave, etc).
Potential bans and threats:
I'm 90% sure that partial trapping (Wrap, etc) would be banned for them disabling a Pokemon for many turns, allowing for some fairly obnoxious strategies. It feels like it would be very centralising, and from my testing, it has been. Sleep also seems a bit dumb, but Sleep Clause seems as if it would balance it out enough.
So some potential new threats...
Articuno has the strongest Blizzard in the game, and it only gets better when it can hit both opponents with a chance to Freeze. Avoiding Earthquake and being incapable of becoming Frozen is a nice benefit too. I can see Articuno cleaning up games very well. It should look out for Rock Slide, though. It also gets Mist and is the fastest user of it. Golduck and Slowbro can become pretty interesting picks, as coupled with a Thunder Wave user, you can get a stat reapplication right off the bat, making for good speed control. The addition of a multi-targeting Surf also makes them threatening sweepers. I think either could be used in Doubles, as Golduck's Speed is enough to warrant consideration over Slowbro unlike in typical RBY OU. Given Razor Leaf becomes a spread move in later generations, Venusaur and Victreebel would become pretty interesting. A spread move that almost always crits already sounds pretty great. I think Venusaur may edge it out for having higher speed, allowing for a faster Sleep option. Being the only Super Fang user in a pretty bulky format, Raticate sounds as though it would be a pretty good support pick. It's got fairly decent Speed to benefit this, though it's frail as hell and would likely crumble to something like Starmie. Multi-targeting Haze sounds interesting enough to consider Vaporeon. It's not as strong as something like Lapras or Starmie though, so I'm not sure if it would be a staple or anything. It's also one of the few Pokemon to get Mist, along with Articuno and Lapras, so that's a potential niche there too. Butterfree and Beedrill are the only fully evolved Pokemon to get String Shot, which would lower both opponent's Speed by 1 stage given the rules I'm putting forward (use Gen 1 effects, but multi-targeting from later gens). This gives them a minor niche in the Speed control department. Bubble could see minor use from Blastoise, Seadra, Poliwrath or Kingler, but I don't think it'd be justifiable over something like Thunder Wave.I think some regular OU staples would become worse, though.
While it gains multi-targeting STABs and has the best Earthquake in the game, I don't think Rhydon would hold up too well given Surf and Blizzard are likely going to be everywhere. Gang attacking also seems like a pressing issue. I can see it being used to stop Thunder Wave though, which I think will be quite common. Earthquake is likely to see a lot of play as it does in later generations, and since Gengar can't float, I think it'll face some pretty tough competition. It's not exactly frail on the special side in RBY though, so it may be able to stand up and fight.Questions for the community:
- Well, would you play it? I'm of the understanding that RBY is generally seen in a poor light by a lot of newer fans of the game, and that's fine, I'm open to all criticism on all fronts.
- Do you think partial trapping should be banned in something like this? From what I've seen it's pretty damn powerful. It's effectively the same as freezing or sleeping a Pokemon in this format, given what you can do with the partner thereafter. Not to mention the pivoting potential.
- What do you think of Sleep? Taking a turn to wake up, as well as the potential to go like 6 turns without a move seems as if it would be a problem. However, Sleep Clause significantly tones down its potential for devastation.
- Explosion seems really broken since an ally's Substitute can be used to make them live. This makes Electrode+Snorlax a pretty scary threat to many teams.
Currently, there's a bug causing spread moves not to work. These are my fault, and a result of me not being great at programming PS Servers. If anyone knows a solution to these or wants to help though, please let me know!
There was a bug with KOs automatically ending a turn, but this was fixed and replaced with ADV Doubles Switch Mechanics to remain true to how Double Battles progressed.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rby-gen1rbydoubles1ubeta-349
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rby-gen1doublesou-351
With proper KO mechanics
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rby-gen1doublesou-357
There was a bug with KOs automatically ending a turn, but this was fixed and replaced with ADV Doubles Switch Mechanics to remain true to how Double Battles progressed.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rby-gen1rbydoubles1ubeta-349
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rby-gen1doublesou-351
With proper KO mechanics
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rby-gen1doublesou-357
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So, by removing the item clauses and bans, would my metagame be suitable for submission? Or should I iron out a couple more things first?
This thread is for getting tips and ideads to make the OMs more presentable and balanced, before submitting them to the submissions thread.
Trickmons
Premise
Pokemon use their opponent's item instead of their own.
So you give your Pokemon bad items to cripple your opponent.
Bans
OU banlist
Knock Off
Useful items
Choice Items
Assault Vest
Toxic/Flame Orb
Lagging Tail/Full Incense
Ring Target
Iron Ball
Black Sludge
Sticky Barb
Other Threats
Corrosive Gas
Trick/Switcheroo
Thief/Covet
Klutz
Pickpocket
Q/A
Does this sound cool to play?
Anything you would improve?
Premise
Pokemon use their opponent's item instead of their own.
So you give your Pokemon bad items to cripple your opponent.
Bans
OU banlist
Knock Off
Useful items
Choice Items
Assault Vest
Toxic/Flame Orb
Lagging Tail/Full Incense
Ring Target
Iron Ball
Black Sludge
Sticky Barb
Other Threats
Corrosive Gas
Trick/Switcheroo
Thief/Covet
Klutz
Pickpocket
Q/A
Does this sound cool to play?
Anything you would improve?
how does this work?
i get it as your current item affects the opponent? item manipulation works normally outside of that. so if you corrosive gas your opponents item, you have no item as long as the same mon is out. if you trick your own item effects you now until the opp switches out
Basically, yes.
If you corrosive gas your opponent's item, they lose their item permanently as normal. Which means when that Pokemon is out, your Pokemon no longer uses their item, because they no longer have their item. Trick also works as you describe, but also, if they switch out then back in, you regain the item you tricked it. Additionally, the ability Klutz affects item usage, so the user can't use the opponent's item.
Yes, if your opponent switches out while you hold Heavy Duty Boots, they won't be affected by hazards.
Bro, absolutely. I'd play the scrungus out of that metagame. It's a simple change but it makes it so different.
Black Sludge and Sticky Barb both have cool counterplay. Black Sludge is obvious: just use a Poison-type and let your opponent heal you. Sticky Barb is much more interesting. You can counter Sticky Barb by not running an item, thereby allowing yourself to steal a Sticky Barb with a contact move. However, that counter can be countered by using a Pokemon with Sticky Hold to- wait never mind, Sticky Hold can't keep you from giving up your Sticky Barb.
I was originally dismissive of this meta, since it seemed similar to the classic "you swap Pokemon with your opponent" idea which very easily falls to shit (you just give every mon terrible sets and no one has fun) but then I realized that Flame and Toxic Orb are basically Intimidate versions of Will-O-Wisp and Toxic. This meta isn't "everyone has a bad item" but rather "everyone trades their item slot for a second ability slot" and I think that's really cool. Lagging Tail on a slow mon? Not so slow anymore. Assault Vest? Choice items? Those are just auto-Taunt and auto-Encore. Think you can block Volt Switch with a Ground-type? Ring Target says otherwise. I really hope this meta gets approved.
Also, how does Fling work?
I was originally dismissive of this meta, since it seemed similar to the classic "you swap Pokemon with your opponent" idea which very easily falls to shit (you just give every mon terrible sets and no one has fun) but then I realized that Flame and Toxic Orb are basically Intimidate versions of Will-O-Wisp and Toxic. This meta isn't "everyone has a bad item" but rather "everyone trades their item slot for a second ability slot" and I think that's really cool. Lagging Tail on a slow mon? Not so slow anymore. Assault Vest? Choice items? Those are just auto-Taunt and auto-Encore. Think you can block Volt Switch with a Ground-type? Ring Target says otherwise. I really hope this meta gets approved.
Also, how does Fling work?
Thanks for the feedback.
Speaking of strategies, Assault Vest + Sucker Punch would be a great combo.
Also, you could use Trick to give a good item for you to use while using your opponent's item against them.
You fling the item you hold and your opponent uses. Additionally, Bug Bite eats the berry your opponent is holding that you could have used anyways. Not that berries are good in this meta, although you could use a confusion berry as a gimmick.
Speaking of strategies, Assault Vest + Sucker Punch would be a great combo.
Also, you could use Trick to give a good item for you to use while using your opponent's item against them.
Here's a list of all the items I could maybe see being useful:
Assault Vest is basically an automatic and semi-permanent Taunt (it's permanent in the same sense that Desolate Land is permanent). While it does also boost your opponent's Sp. Def, it completely and immediately shuts down any defensive mon just by switching in.
Like Assault Vest, but with Encore. These items are incredibly powerful tools for set-up sweepers. Simply switch into a resisted move and set up for free. Your opponent can try to give you a taste of your own medicine by swapping out to a choice user of their own and lock you into a setup move, but Klutz users like Swords Dance Bewear, Rock Polish Golurk, and Nasty Plot Swoobat can get around this.
Two ways of dealing hefty passive damage. As discussed earlier, Black Sludge can be countered by Poison-types, while Sticky Barb can be countered by itemless Pokemon.
One-time-use items that force your opponent to switch. Eject Button activates when you hit them, while Eject Pack activates when they have a lowered stat. It's not as useful as something like Whirlwind or normal Red Card, since your opponent can still pick who gets sent in, but it can useful for stopping a set-up sweeper. Button requires speed or priority to force them out without getting hit, while Pack activates immediately (even on a switch) but requires the opponent to be using something like Close Combat.
Easy status affliction. They unfortunately don't activate until the end of a turn, so you can't simply switch into a physical attacker to burn it without eating one unburnt attack.
Two options for speed control. Lagging Tail is the better item purely in terms of speed, as it makes you impossible to outspeed, but Iron Ball comes with the bonus of removing Ground immunities, making it useful on hazard stack or on Ground-types with medium Speed.
Removes the opponent's immunities. Useful on any Pokemon whose STAB is negated by another type, but especially useful on Electric-types due to Volt Switch.
Assault Vest is basically an automatic and semi-permanent Taunt (it's permanent in the same sense that Desolate Land is permanent). While it does also boost your opponent's Sp. Def, it completely and immediately shuts down any defensive mon just by switching in.
Like Assault Vest, but with Encore. These items are incredibly powerful tools for set-up sweepers. Simply switch into a resisted move and set up for free. Your opponent can try to give you a taste of your own medicine by swapping out to a choice user of their own and lock you into a setup move, but Klutz users like Swords Dance Bewear, Rock Polish Golurk, and Nasty Plot Swoobat can get around this.
Two ways of dealing hefty passive damage. As discussed earlier, Black Sludge can be countered by Poison-types, while Sticky Barb can be countered by itemless Pokemon.
One-time-use items that force your opponent to switch. Eject Button activates when you hit them, while Eject Pack activates when they have a lowered stat. It's not as useful as something like Whirlwind or normal Red Card, since your opponent can still pick who gets sent in, but it can useful for stopping a set-up sweeper. Button requires speed or priority to force them out without getting hit, while Pack activates immediately (even on a switch) but requires the opponent to be using something like Close Combat.
Easy status affliction. They unfortunately don't activate until the end of a turn, so you can't simply switch into a physical attacker to burn it without eating one unburnt attack.
Two options for speed control. Lagging Tail is the better item purely in terms of speed, as it makes you impossible to outspeed, but Iron Ball comes with the bonus of removing Ground immunities, making it useful on hazard stack or on Ground-types with medium Speed.
Removes the opponent's immunities. Useful on any Pokemon whose STAB is negated by another type, but especially useful on Electric-types due to Volt Switch.
Interestingly it isn’t. Unlike Taunt, which prevents you from both selecting and from using status moves, Assault Vest only prevents you from selecting status moves, not from using them. This means that on the turn the Assault Vest pokemon switches in the opposing pokemon can still use status moves.
Of course Assault Vest will still be very powerful, but it doesn’t quite invalidate defensive mons for free which is nice.
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Okay, so I have an idea for a metagame. It is called Unlisted. The main premise is that pokemon who are Untiered get a 1.5 boost to each of their base stats (rounded down). For example: Beartic's stats would look like this:
Original Stats | Unlisted Stats |
95 HP | 142 |
130 ATK | 195 |
80 DEF | 120 |
70 SPA | 105 |
80 SPD | 120 |
50 SPE | 75 |
pretty much tier shift but *slightly* different
comes with the same problem too, where its either all ou or all zu bar a few exceptions
oof. luckily I have a few other ideas. is it okay if I share those?
Yeah, go ahead.
I was thinking more about Trickmons. Trick and Switcheroo could be useful, but I don't think they'll be THAT useful. The issue is that while it does permanently remove a bad item from an opponent, there aren't a lot of appealing options for good items to give them. Leftovers is probably the best, but the healing isn't all that much, and your opponent is in control of when it's in play anyway. Unlike normal play, where Trick and Switcheroo are more useful for leaving the opponent with an unhelpful item, I think they will be more useful in this meta like Knock Off or Corrosive Gas, in that they remove an item that the opponent wants.
Wait, how do you submit an OM?
Totalius: Depending on where you are placed in your party, one of your stats are doubled.
Slot 1 - HP
Slot 2 - Attack
Slot 3 - Defense
Slot 4 - Special Attack
Slot 5 - Special Defense
Slot 6 - Speed
I could see Blissey being a major threat, having MAJOR BULK with 510 base HP. Chansey also could be a huge threat, pairing with eviolite with 500 HP. Huge Power Pokemon would get a kick out of their attack being double boosted.
How should I handle pokemon with high bulk or attack stats?
Slot 1 - HP
Slot 2 - Attack
Slot 3 - Defense
Slot 4 - Special Attack
Slot 5 - Special Defense
Slot 6 - Speed
I could see Blissey being a major threat, having MAJOR BULK with 510 base HP. Chansey also could be a huge threat, pairing with eviolite with 500 HP. Huge Power Pokemon would get a kick out of their attack being double boosted.
How should I handle pokemon with high bulk or attack stats?
too extreme
a pokemon in the speed slot will decimate the attacking stats but cant do much against the bulk stats, meanwhile the attack stats will break
the bulk stats being so good might mean stall bc you just switch between def and spd mons
I thought of that, and I made a few clauses becuase of that,
Maybe cap them at 255? Several other stat-boosting OMs already do that.
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