Shouldn't this apply to Mega Garchomp then as well? Or is that different because the distintion between Megas and their vanilla forms is an artificial one made by Smogon?
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3
- Thread starter Gary
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It's not the same case.
Battle Bond Greninja shares typing, learnset, stats and Pokedex Number (and model, which is a novelty in this kind of Pokemon) with regular Greninja, but it's actually a different Pokemon. The different Egg Groups and gender distribution confirm that.
Think of things like Cosplay Pikachu, except drastically better.
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They also have slightly different movesets as well, actually. Battle Bond Greninja doesn't have access to Egg Moves and Move Tutors (yet).
It's certainly a unique case, that can't be compared with Megas at all.
Something I've been playing around with a little bit has been bronzong, and I think it's pretty interesting.
I figured it would be unimpressive unless you were running a really obscure bulky trick room or something, so I didn't pay it much attention until I realized how much of the really prevalent pokemon in the metagame it hard walls. I built the team in just a little bit, it's much more offensive minded and I think bronzong would fit better on something like a balance, but still I liked the results.
Scarf Chomp (252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 63-75 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Lando-T (252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 42-50 (12.4 - 14.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever)
Magearna (252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 153-180 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Mega Metagross (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 75-89 (22.1 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Mega Pinsir (252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 97-115 (28.6 - 34%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Salamence (+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 143-168 (42.3 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Tapu Bulu (252 Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 135-159 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Here's two quick replays on my alt. I think I'm only like 1500-ish on this one, but the battles show how bronzong can actually, like, do something.
-http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559778539
In this replay, it didn't do a whole lot but it handled tapu koko, ferrothorn, starmie and landorus well. My opponent ends up forfeiting towards the end and we win. It did its job in keeping landorus in check, keeping rocks on the field, and switching into attacks when I needed something to go into.
-http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559787887
Here it chips down mawile enough to where hoopa can take it out, and gets up rocks. Really that's all it'll do most games - stop an enemy's threat (Whether that be mawile, metagross, pinsir, dd mence, etc.) for a little while, get up rocks, and die.
-http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559795672 I lost this one but that's only because I played poorly. Bronzong put a stop to medicham before it tore apart my team, and that was enough for me.
I won't oversell its utility, it is far from perfect. Rocks are nice, but it really only does ok because the meta is in a place where there are so many offensive behemoths it's hard to beat all of them in one slot. Bronzong sure doesn't do this, but it handles quite a few of them. In terms of soft checks, it can be a nuisance to koko, lele, magearna, mega mawile and mega medicham. Not perfect, but a cool mon worth checking out. Idk, anyone else's thoughts?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559778539
I figured it would be unimpressive unless you were running a really obscure bulky trick room or something, so I didn't pay it much attention until I realized how much of the really prevalent pokemon in the metagame it hard walls. I built the team in just a little bit, it's much more offensive minded and I think bronzong would fit better on something like a balance, but still I liked the results.
Scarf Chomp (252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 63-75 (18.6 - 22.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Lando-T (252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 42-50 (12.4 - 14.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever)
Magearna (252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bronzong: 153-180 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Mega Metagross (252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 75-89 (22.1 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Mega Pinsir (252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 97-115 (28.6 - 34%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Salamence (+1 252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 143-168 (42.3 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Tapu Bulu (252 Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 135-159 (39.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)
Here's two quick replays on my alt. I think I'm only like 1500-ish on this one, but the battles show how bronzong can actually, like, do something.
-http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559778539
In this replay, it didn't do a whole lot but it handled tapu koko, ferrothorn, starmie and landorus well. My opponent ends up forfeiting towards the end and we win. It did its job in keeping landorus in check, keeping rocks on the field, and switching into attacks when I needed something to go into.
-http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559787887
Here it chips down mawile enough to where hoopa can take it out, and gets up rocks. Really that's all it'll do most games - stop an enemy's threat (Whether that be mawile, metagross, pinsir, dd mence, etc.) for a little while, get up rocks, and die.
-http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559795672 I lost this one but that's only because I played poorly. Bronzong put a stop to medicham before it tore apart my team, and that was enough for me.
I won't oversell its utility, it is far from perfect. Rocks are nice, but it really only does ok because the meta is in a place where there are so many offensive behemoths it's hard to beat all of them in one slot. Bronzong sure doesn't do this, but it handles quite a few of them. In terms of soft checks, it can be a nuisance to koko, lele, magearna, mega mawile and mega medicham. Not perfect, but a cool mon worth checking out. Idk, anyone else's thoughts?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-559778539
it's hard-coded unbreedable so it won't can't get egg moves you got a point on tutor moves though but who knows when that will be a thing.
It's coded as being in the "No Egg" group, which is a mild distinction to make from being hard coded against breeding persay.
And the lack of access to Egg Moves and Tutor moves are legitimate points as to what distinguishes Ash-Greninja. I basically consider them separate Pokemon on the basis of "if this Pokemon did not have Greninja's Model for its appearance, there is enough different about it that I would classify it as a different Pokemon". It's the hardest case to separate out since it looks and is labeled as Greninja aesthetically, but there is no way to get an Ash-Greninja from a regular Greninja (i.e. one that can use Protean and all of the moves available to a Protean Greninja) or vice versa, nor can they be played in the same manner.
To keep this particular post on topic, what playstyles benefit the most from Pheromosa's departure? Its QD sets and general offensive presence made it a massive constraint on building for offense and defense alike for the opponent. Offense loses a fast, snow-balling headache of an opponent, but Stall also loses the tier's best Hazard Remover and Rapid Spinner to boot, and this is a boon for Spike-stacking as well on both playstyles.
I'd say that semi-stall was hurt badly by the loss of Pheromosa. Pheromosa was a great offense-breaker, so offense is improving the most from Phermosoa's departure. Stall often used Defog Skarmory as its hazard remover because of Skarmory's high defense, and Stall often had Mega Sableye as further insurance against hazards. Spike setting (Ferrothorn and Spikes Greninja) will get better.
I meant to imply that Pheromosa leaving makes it easier for Stall to control hazards since the best Spinner to remove them is gone.
So, to make something productive out of the talk of the Gren's; I don't think that Ash Greninja is broken, really. If you took Protean Gren away from the occasion and looked at A-Gren by itself, it's a really predictable mon. The vast majority of sets are Specs Hydro/Dark Pulse/Shuriken/U Turn, with an ice beam occasionally in the mix and sometimes a life orb instead of specs. If Protean was banned, you'd basically know exactly what to expect whenever you see Gren, which makes it bearable imo. Sure, it's got insane power, but so does CharY, and unlike CharY it needs to confirm a kill before it can access that power, and unlike CharY it's limited by Specs.
Basically, A-Gren is certainly super powerful, but it's restricted by its predictability (which, if/when Protean goes, becomes even worse), by Specs, and by needing to transform. It's a lot like CharY in that way. Near unparalleled power, but you have to play around the restrictions surrounding it.
Basically, A-Gren is certainly super powerful, but it's restricted by its predictability (which, if/when Protean goes, becomes even worse), by Specs, and by needing to transform. It's a lot like CharY in that way. Near unparalleled power, but you have to play around the restrictions surrounding it.
I agree, but it also means Greninja will not get suspected anytime soon, as Smogon doesn't like complex bans.
That's not complex at all, since the Greninjas are different Pokemon.
It looks complex as banning non-Battle Bond Greninja or banning Battle Bond Greninja sound like banning Ability+Pokemon combinations (which is what is frowned upon), but since it either has Battle Bond or can't have it (unlike, say, Blaziken, which can have either Blaze or Speed Boost, whereas Battle Bond and Torrent/Protean/Egg moves are mutually exclusive), it's not actually a complex ban.
Besides, this is all a naming issue. How can we call the untransformed Battle Bond Greninja? "Greninja without Ability"?
Now, I'm really curious about how bad hazard removal is right now. I wonder if Magic Bounce will get a small (if shortlived) spike in demand in early desperation.
(At least, until Mega Diancie comes)
I guess you could just call it Event Greninja, and maybe just ban Non-Event Greninja?
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
Why isn't chestnaught used? It can wall a lot of important threats by typing and important move combos like rock/ground/fighting/water/dark/shadow ball as as a benefit it isn't Trappable like ferrothorn who I really don't think can give up Leftovers or rocky helmet for shed shell cause it wants to switch into knock offs moreally than most and chest has as reliable recovery as You need
Idk it's the only thing that comes to mind handling both ash greninja+lando after a swords dance(context on a shednija team which if they are Z fly/specs ice beam I can easily handle them with shednija)
Z stone edge has been smashing my team apart honestly
Idk it's the only thing that comes to mind handling both ash greninja+lando after a swords dance(context on a shednija team which if they are Z fly/specs ice beam I can easily handle them with shednija)
Z stone edge has been smashing my team apart honestly
I feel like Chesnaught simply lacks appeal compared to Ferrothorn because it fulfills a much smaller niche than Ferrothorn defensively. It certainly has some practical appeal, but the Steel type and mixed defensive capabilities make Ferrothorn a much more consistent and ideal option for so many teams. Chesnaught offers Spikes, Leech, and Spiky Shield, but it has a mere 75 Special Defense and it has many weaknesses that Ferrothorn do not. I suppose you can make an argument for Chesnaught to check EdgeQuake Lando-T, but being weak to Psychic, Fairy, and Poison makes it a lot less convenient and easy to throw onto teams than Ferrothorn. Overall, it's possible to justify using it on a team, but generally is the worst Pokemon of the two and much less viable.
I mean I agree with you that Ash-Gren alone isn't broken, but it's incredibly centralizing. It forces you to either run a scarfer that can handle Shuriken (so Lele and Keldeo and a healthy Garchomp on the revenge[but let's be real, by the time Ash transforms, Garchomp isn't usually healthy enough to handle it]). So basically it's an insane counter-offense mon.
OR
You can run something that walls it (Toxapex, Fini, or Primarina). Either way, you are obligated to use something to cover it, and it really cuts down on metagame diversity because you're forced to run one of ~5 pokes just to handle it.
Obv. theorymonning a metagame after a theorymonned metagame is pretty absurd, so we should probably just focus on the brokenness of Protean first because there really isn't a way it isn't broken.
So I tried using Chesnaught a ways back, during the Phero metagame. I can try and revive it again, but the problems I had were that so much of the meta can hit it for SE coverage. It is cool with some of the stuff it can spike on, but Ferro is DEFINITELY more viable in essentially every way.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
It's mostly the dark/rock quake and not being magetzone bait that makes me interested in it, I just don't want 2 steels that are both trap baithe as it is in this wild u turn meta, I also think poison jab might help deal with some switch ins like fairys, tang and mega sableye(hopeful haxes) and it really might have merit
Also breloom isn't really great for living non sense or good in stall
Also breloom isn't really great for living non sense or good in stall
Beyond the other points that have been stated, it's important to note that Ferrothorn has better matchups vs spinners/defoggers than Chesnaught does. Ferrothorn can easily 1v1 Tapu Fini while Chesnaught is both outsped and 2HKOd, and seeing as how most teams use Fini for hazard control being able to fight it is a huge reason for Ferro over Ches.
The biggest thing about it is obviously the requirement for transformation. Specs-Gren pre-transformation hits fairly hard, but it's not the unwallable-but-for-5-pokes monster that A-Gren is. So it simultaneously really punishes sacking mons to it but also forces the A-Gren user to constantly be on the lookout to get it transformed. Imo it's as big as a restriction as SR is for CharY and really it's what keeps A-Gren from being broken. Also, the rise of Ferro and AV Tangrowth really doesn't help it, as it can't break through either without lots of prior damage or transforming. Both are super splashable as well so it's not like there's any opportunity cost to using them. But besides that, you don't necessarily have to run something that walls it so long as your team is equipped to deal with its pre transformation, since pre transforming Gren is checked by a lot more.
Chesnaught's typing really holds it back. Ferro possesses one of the better ones in the game, but grass and fighting have little defensive synergy (though decent offensive synergy).
After reading some of the comments in this thread so far Ill like to disagree on one point in particular cause honestly... I cant stand it.
Alolan Marowak is by far one of the most overrated Pokemon I have seen in this generation. I firmly believe this Pokemon should have been considered to drop to UU a while ago but its usage is actually massive and I really fail to understand why... well not really since I guess it countered the infamous quiver dance pheromosa set but failed to check the rest of the sets consistently so... I dunno. On a Metagame where hazard control options are honestly absolutely terrible checking stuff with this Pokemon that is not only all-types-of-hazards weak but, to make it worse, it is also pursuit weak (while it is something that isnt as prevalent as say last gen, still something that really makes it unappealing) is actually really difficult in practice, since plenty of the stuff it checks have ways to circumvent and take advantage of it (through U-turn in the case of Koko) or it just doesnt beat the stuff it supposedly do... unless everyone runs the same goddamn set on every Pokemon (not every Mega Medicham will run bolt beam, and dont come at me with the "they should" argument when zen headbutt is a perfectly viable option). It pairs well with Tapu Fini but I find Defog Tapu Fini and extremely exploitable and lackluster set nowadays, necessary but is just doesnt feel right, giving me that Latios syndrome vibe that when it doesnt run defog it suddenly feels a lot better.
It is also an extremely one dimensional Pokemon in terms of item choice, which is one of the aspects that bothers me the most. This Pokemon cant afford to run anything else that isnt thick club. Leftovers to have a little extra sustainability at least? Nope. Anything else besides Thick Club? Nope. Pray you dont ever find a knock off ferrothorn cause it switches into that right? Guess not. It has some good niches going for it, one of the most solid electric checks Ive seen in a while which is hilarious but I believe this Pokemon shouldnt be as relevant as it is. Being hard to switch into isnt really an excuse when there are plenty of things that are also hard to switch into without being that annoying to support and where everyone can lose to anything in a metagame where the matchup issue gets worse for obvious powercreep. Im not even if it beats anything reliably anymore.
I dont like this mon and from my experience, it has been lackluster everytime. Maybe it is just me, who knows.
Starmie is good. Greninja is a living hell for it more than anything else cause Spikes Greninja is busted but the other hazard control options arent really any better, especially on offense so this Pokemon does have a pretty solid niche right now tbh. Id even dare to try scarf starmie more seriously even...
Cheers!
Alolan Marowak is by far one of the most overrated Pokemon I have seen in this generation. I firmly believe this Pokemon should have been considered to drop to UU a while ago but its usage is actually massive and I really fail to understand why... well not really since I guess it countered the infamous quiver dance pheromosa set but failed to check the rest of the sets consistently so... I dunno. On a Metagame where hazard control options are honestly absolutely terrible checking stuff with this Pokemon that is not only all-types-of-hazards weak but, to make it worse, it is also pursuit weak (while it is something that isnt as prevalent as say last gen, still something that really makes it unappealing) is actually really difficult in practice, since plenty of the stuff it checks have ways to circumvent and take advantage of it (through U-turn in the case of Koko) or it just doesnt beat the stuff it supposedly do... unless everyone runs the same goddamn set on every Pokemon (not every Mega Medicham will run bolt beam, and dont come at me with the "they should" argument when zen headbutt is a perfectly viable option). It pairs well with Tapu Fini but I find Defog Tapu Fini and extremely exploitable and lackluster set nowadays, necessary but is just doesnt feel right, giving me that Latios syndrome vibe that when it doesnt run defog it suddenly feels a lot better.
It is also an extremely one dimensional Pokemon in terms of item choice, which is one of the aspects that bothers me the most. This Pokemon cant afford to run anything else that isnt thick club. Leftovers to have a little extra sustainability at least? Nope. Anything else besides Thick Club? Nope. Pray you dont ever find a knock off ferrothorn cause it switches into that right? Guess not. It has some good niches going for it, one of the most solid electric checks Ive seen in a while which is hilarious but I believe this Pokemon shouldnt be as relevant as it is. Being hard to switch into isnt really an excuse when there are plenty of things that are also hard to switch into without being that annoying to support and where everyone can lose to anything in a metagame where the matchup issue gets worse for obvious powercreep. Im not even if it beats anything reliably anymore.
I dont like this mon and from my experience, it has been lackluster everytime. Maybe it is just me, who knows.
Starmie is good. Greninja is a living hell for it more than anything else cause Spikes Greninja is busted but the other hazard control options arent really any better, especially on offense so this Pokemon does have a pretty solid niche right now tbh. Id even dare to try scarf starmie more seriously even...
Cheers!
Alowak has checked/countered top-tier threats since the start of the gen. Genesect was banned, and alowak remained highly viable, countering electrics and bug/fighters. It's definitely too soon after mosa ban to say what kind of a viability hit alowak will take, but it's fair to assume it will take a hit.
That aside, you vastly undersell this mons utility, and it's surprising you've considered it the most overrated pokemon in the tier for the whole generation considering things like buzzwole and mimikyu, which were hyped up but ultimately proved to be very average, have consistently performed poorer than alowak up until now.
The thing with alowak is that it doesn't need lots of opportunities and turns to put in work, nor does it need surprise factor or variability. TBH, all it ever needs is one turn, and that's the turn it forces something out and something else switches in to eat a thicc club boosted STAB shadow bone. Unless that something's name is landot, it's getting a good wallop, guaranteed. Alowak can take advantage of choiced attacks, it can block volt-spam draining tons of momentum from the opponent. Medi effectively cannot click HJK while an alowak exists on the opposing team.
It's tough to overrate a mon with 3 useful immunities, rocks / wisp utility, decent bulk, and a ridiculous attack stat. It only speaks to this mons viability that even in a hazard-infested metagame, this hazard-fearing mon can put in work fairly consistently.
It's not to be played mindlessly, expecting to just come in on koko's volt and throw out a shadow bone. You should know that the first voltturn from koko is gonna be a u-turn, not a volt switch, so maybe send landot into that. Then, when his koko is out against your fini in the mid-game, you can probly safely come in to absorb a volt or tbolt. Whatever. My point is, it requires intelligent play, but greatly rewards an intelligent player.
Not to mention SD rock-head alowak 6-0s standard stall.
small edit: which mosa sets outside of the very rare hp ground/water did alowak fail to check?
You can think that he is overated and a bad mon, that is your opinion and You have nice argument, but i think that beeing mono item is not a problem if that item makes You have only one good switch in, every mega can only use one item, chansey can use only one item and that is not a problem cause their items are exactly what they need, and You can't say he is onedimensional because his 2 sets(lighitng rod/rock head) work very different and have the same viability since You can bluff your abilty until use the fire move, a koko Will never use volt switch with a a-marowak in game, even if its a Rock head one(of course when You reveal the ability there is no more bluff) this works smilliar to breloom in XY, when You could bluff techinichan and set up a subs with toxic heal.
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Pheromosa's ban has a significant affect overall in this tier and below are some of the changes and influence I believe that will take place due to her departure.
As for Medicham Mega
- Offensive teams no longer require to run mixed wall Toxapex, the main mon that can safely switch and wall Pheromosa. This isn't saying that Toxapex's usage will significantly drop as it is still a very good bulky wall on its own regard.
- Greninja's usage will significantly rise. Protean Greninja will probably surpass battle bond since now there is one less reason to run water shuriken on it. Although Water Shuriken is still a powerful 60bp priority move with sturdy/sash/multiscale breaking capabilities it really is used only to attack Pheromosa and to some extent mega pinsir.
- Mega-Metagross might be the next suspect test since pheromosa is such an amazing offensive check to protean greninja and Mega Gross regardless if the Pheromosa runs an all out pummeling life orb set or specs focus blast/bug buzz etc (as if Mega Gross itself isn't already S rank in OU).
- Balanced offense teams lost a strong rapid spinner. Excadrill/starmie and to an extent tentacruel users might increase.
- Greninja would be even more unpredictable. Since phero can spin and was used to clear spikes and toxic spikes from protean greninja, greninja can now have more reliability as either roles via battle bond or protean.
- Rain and weather teams will now be more useful. Scarf phero is somewhat used to outspeed swift swim pokemon.
- Weavile's usage might increase as Pheromosa on top of sweeping capabilities she herself can very much be the tier's best revenge killer. With her gone, weavile may possibly replace her.
As for Medicham Mega
- A very good wallbreaker. An alternative to Mega Mawile but faster.
- Ghost pokemon will be common just to find SOMETHING to safely switch into its monsterous HJK. These include marowak-alola sableye mega and mimikyu.
- Landorus therian will be relied even more just to intimidate in attempt to decrease its wallbreaking potential.
- Gengar's usage may significantly, the most reliable mon to revenge kill it right now and potentially to switch into its fake out and HJK. Although gengar can still take heavy damage from megacham's bullet punch which is seen on it every now and then as a second priority move and something to handle fairies.
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On this subject, what are you guys thinking about Tentacruel ?
The guy's been on my teams for a while as I like having something to clear hazards away.
Its SpD set is a good check to Greninja sets lacking Extrasensory, Gengar, Keldeo, Serperior and can force Tapu Fini out.
Obviously it packs some utility in Rapid Spin, Toxic Spikes, Haze or Knock Off.
Its biggest flaw imo is the lack of recovery its brethren Toxapex has.
The guy's been on my teams for a while as I like having something to clear hazards away.
Its SpD set is a good check to Greninja sets lacking Extrasensory, Gengar, Keldeo, Serperior and can force Tapu Fini out.
Obviously it packs some utility in Rapid Spin, Toxic Spikes, Haze or Knock Off.
Its biggest flaw imo is the lack of recovery its brethren Toxapex has.
Tentacruel is good because just as you said reliable utility moves and can also clean hazards. I have a tentacruel that has mirror coat instead of haze just for a gimmick thou. Sad part is while toxic spikes seemed more viable this gen in comparison to last gen you still have venusaur and beedrill to clean them up. That's my overall opinion on tentacruel, viability seems to have remain unchanged in comparison to last gen.
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If the toxic spikes are already up, Fini can't come in without getting poisoned because the terrain doesn't go into effect until after hazards are accounted for or whatever. And poisoning their fini should be considered a success because it's on a timer with no more leftovers.
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