NU Mantine

Disjunction

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Overview
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Mantine's great typing grants it a number of useful resistances in comparison to its low amount of weaknesses. When this is combined with Mantine's monstrous special bulk, you have a very potent mixed wall that can switch in on many of the tier's strongest threats, such as Typhlosion, Ludicolo, Lilligant, and even strong Fighting-types such as Hariyama and Sawk. Mantine also has access to Haze to counter SmashPass if need be. With its many opportunities to safely switch in, Mantine is one of the few reliable defoggers in the NU tier. However, Mantine is often held back by its lack of reliable recovery and weakness to Stealth Rock. With Rest being its only means of recovery, Mantine is easily whittled down by status and Stealth Rock damage. Mantine also has to compete with Pelipper who has higher physical defense and Roost. Electric-types and Pokemon carrying Freezy-Dry are Mantine's worst enemies, as they can deal a devastating 4x super effective hit if Mantine is left in against them.

Defensive Defog
########
name: Defensive Defog
move 1: Defog
move 2: Scald
move 3: Air Slash
move 4: Toxic
ability: Water Absorb
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
nature: Calm

Moves
========

Defog clears the entry hazards that Mantine's team won't appreciate. Scald is the main move that Mantine will use to hit the Pokemon it will commonly be switching into, such as Claydol, Mega Camerupt, and various Fighting- and Fire-types. Air Slash is a secondary STAB move that provides coverage against Pokemon that resist or are immune to Scald, such as Vileplume, Tangela, Seismitoad, and Poliwrath, or have already been inflicted with a status condition. Toxic is Mantine's main way of pressuring other bulky Water-types to prevent them from beating Mantine and is overall a great utility move to have. Haze single-handedly crushes SmashPass, as both Gorebyss and Huntail cannot touch Mantine. Haze also functions as a great tool against Swords Dance Samurott and Calm Mind users, such as Mega Audino, SubCM Uxie, and Musharna, as it lets Mantine stop set up sweepers while taking little damage from any coverage options. Protect can be used for scouting purposes, such as gathering extra Leftovers recovery (which Mantine so desperately depends on), and racking up more Toxic damage.

Set Details
========

248 HP EVs give Mantine an odd HP number, allowing it to switch into Stealth Rock one more time than it could with an even number. Maximum Defense investment allows Mantine to stave off a 2HKO from Jolly Choice Band Sawk's Close Combat while giving Mantine the most efficient, all-around bulk. The EV spread ensures that Mantine always 3HKOed by Choice Specs Typhlosion's Blaze-boosted Fire Blasts after Stealth Rock. Water Absorb is preferred on any defensive set for its added immunity and pseudo-recovery. A spread of 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 SpD with a Calm nature can be used if you need a dedicated answer to Fire-types.

Usage Tips
========

Be cautious when switching in Mantine, because it has no immediate recovery options. Taking a Toxic, burn, or even a neutral hit shortens Mantine's lifespan, and could mean that it doesn't get to remove hazards at critical points in the game. Keep Knock Off users in mind, as Mantine's recovery is entirely dependent on Leftovers. Be mindful of certain coverage moves on Pokemon that could beat Mantine or knock 50% or more off of Mantine's HP, such as Wild Charge on Klinklang and Rock Slide on Camerupt. If you're using Mantine as a switch-in for Fire-type spam, keep pressure on your opponent's Stealth Rock user so you don't have to Defog as much.

Team Options
========

Most Grass-types are great partners for Mantine, as they appreciate Mantine's ability to cover threatening Fire-types. Lilligant is a great offensive option, as it often struggles to pressure Fire-types once Sleep Clause has been activated, and Tangela can be a great defensive option, as it is slower than most Fire-types in the tier and will almost always be KOed in a 1v1 matchup. Ground-types such as Seismitoad and Rhydon are great options to deal with Electric-types spamming Volt Switch or Thunderbolt. Similarly, these Ground-types are great in helping against fast, offensive Rock-types such as Archeops, Rhydon, and Barbaracle. Any Pokemon that appreciates entry hazards being removed from the field, such as Focus Sash users, Fire-types, and Flying-types, generally partner up well with Mantine. Audino can make a great teammate, supporting Mantine with Wish and Heal Bell, helping to mitigate Mantine's lack of recovery. Seeing as many of Mantine's best partners are passive, defensive Pokemon, Mantine finds its place on stall or balance teams, fitting neatly into defensive cores in need of a reliable switch-in to Fire-types.

Other Options
########

Choice Specs can be used for immediate wall breaking power, as Mantine's impressive natural bulk and great neutral coverage make it difficult for defensively based teams to switch into or KO Mantine. A Rain Dance set with Swift Swim can be used to turn Mantine into a mid- or late-game sweeper. While it faces competition from Ludicolo and Seismitoad, Mantine is definitely worth considering due to its Flying typing.

Checks & Counters
########

**Electric-types**: Lanturn is a great switch-in to Mantine, as it resists Mantine's STAB options and has Heal Bell to alleviate statuses. Most other Electric-types can typically brave most of Mantine's moves and threaten it with immediate KO potential. Pokemon with Electric-type coverage options, such as Magmortar, Klinklang, and Mesprit, will heavily pressure Mantine.

**Residual Damage**: Mantine's lack of recovery makes it incredibly susceptible to most forms of passive damage. Stealth Rock severely cuts into its longevity and ability to remove hazards. Toxic users such as Seismitoad and Prinplup threaten it, and even burns from Pokemon such as Weezing and other Pokemon can annoy Mantine in the long run.

**Powerful Physical Attackers**: Powerful offensive Rock-types such as Archeops, Carracosta, and Rhydon can heavily dent, if not outright KO Mantine with their Rock-type STAB options. Physical attackers that are unaffected by Scald burns, such as Zangoose, Ursaring, and Swellow, are also great options.

**Freeze-Dry**: Freeze-Dry hits Mantine 4x super effectively, so Pokemon that carry it, such as Cryogonal, Articuno, and Aurorus, will heavily pressure Mantine.
 
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soulgazer

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those spreads are bad on the defensive spread : calc how many evs with a calm nature mantine needs to take two specs eruption from typh after SR, then put the rest in defense.

resttalk is kinda bad and should only be mentionned in oo or in the first set's moves

defog / scald / air slash / toxic should be the order in the first set. haze and protect mentionned in moves

rain dance should always have air slash.. ice beam is trash on mantine lol, remove that (so hpump/air slash / hp grass)

mention the God specs mantine in OO
 

boltsandbombers

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252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Mantine: 114-134 (34.2 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Mantine: 110-130 (33 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
How's this for the spread? Soulgazer
Calm nature even with no investment always avoids the 2HKO, so I went with bold.

Edit: ya that sounds good
 
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soulgazer

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actually my bad: calm and about the same evs that you calced is needed to take two blaze fire blast x.x

252 SpA Choice Specs Blaze Typhlosion Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 88+ SpD Mantine: 114-134 (34.2 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

maybe thats more situational, so if your team rly needs mantine to be more physically defensive bolt's spread can work. both should be mentionned for sure (i will let the rest of qc decide)
 

Disjunction

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those spreads are bad on the defensive spread : calc how many evs with a calm nature mantine needs to take two specs eruption from typh after SR, then put the rest in defense.

resttalk is kinda bad and should only be mentionned in oo or in the first set's moves

defog / scald / air slash / toxic should be the order in the first set. haze and protect mentionned in moves

rain dance should always have air slash.. ice beam is trash on mantine lol, remove that (so hpump/air slash / hp grass)

mention the God specs mantine in OO
bout to make the changes from this and the one below
sorry bout ice beam lol. I was rushing to put this up and I was comparing beam to slash coverage and I kept saying ice beam was worthless coverage in my head and I guess I typed it out
edit: went with 200 hp/188+ def/120 spdef and 200/184 def/124+ spdef to preserve my leftovers number. eruption still 3hko's with specs eruption on the first set and blaze fblast still 2hkos on the second set.
 
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boltsandbombers

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Checks and counters should be formatted like **Electric-types**: bla bla bla

Look at other analyses to see what I mean.

You still have "SET NAMES", get rid of those.

Physically defensive defogger -> Defensive Defog

Try and expand a bit more on things, like there are some sections with only two or three bullet points; like giving specific examples of pokemon in team options or what a certain coverage move targets.

"Fits great on stall and balance teams as reliable hazard control and as a fire spam switch in."
This belongs in team options, not usage tips.

Definitely go with the 248 HP spreads, having the leftovers number is less important than having more HP.

Checks and counters only go at the end of the analysis, not after each set.

"Your Hidden Power of choice here is grass so you can hit Seismitoad."

Its better to say HP Grass smacks seismitoad or something, the way this is worded implies that there are other hidden powers you can run, which is not true.

Hope I helped.

edit:

looking better, here's the formatting stuff I said I'd fix. Just copy and paste these sets in place of what you have, some minor edits.

Defensive Defog
########
name: Defensive Defog
move 1: Defog
move 2: Scald
move 3: Air Slash / Haze / Protect
move 4: Toxic / Haze / Protect
ability: Water Absorb
item: Leftovers
evs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
nature: Bold

Rain Dance Sweeper
########
name: Rain Dance Sweeper
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Air Slash
move 4: Hidden Power Grass
ability: Swift Swim
item: Life Orb
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest
 
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Disjunction

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(for archiving sake since I already talked about this with bolts) made the above changes
edit: would also like some feed back on the slashes I made for the last two slots on the defensive defogger spread. I kinda just threw Haze and Protect there because I wasn't sure if there was a specific way to go about that
 

boltsandbombers

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Alright, I'll give some more feedback on this.
  • "Air Slash is your secondary STAB and is used for coverage on pokemon scald can't hit or are already status'd." Add what pokemon this hits, mainly grass-types such as vileplume and lilligant, while dealing more damage to fighting types so you dont have to risk a scald not burning.
  • "248 HP is a requirement on defensive Pokemon" This is not necessarily true as I said, but it is better worded as "248 HP gives mantine an odd HP number, which allows mantine to switch into stealth rock five times instead of four, if necessary"
  • "Most grass types are great partners for Mantine as they often give free switch ins to Fire types and Mega Steelix." Same thing here, add examples of the stuff like gourgeist / tangela / vileplume / lilligant, all of which can be good teammates depending on the playstyle of the team.
  • Add audino to team options as it provides wish and heal bell support, and appreciates mantine's fighting resistance.
  • "Your Hidden Power of choice here is grass so you can hit Seismitoad."
    Its better to say HP Grass smacks seismitoad or something, the way this is worded implies that there are other hidden powers you can run, which is not true. You missed this from earlier :s
  • "Air Slash reliable hits any grass types that want to switch in to your Hydro Pumps. It also scores some nice neutral damage on Water types and the rare Dragon type." Examples, same stuff
  • "Timid can be used over Modest on the Rain Dance set if you're frightened by base 95 Choice Scarf users, speed tie wars with Modest Ludicolo, or taking extra damage from Timid Ludicolo. Again, this greatly affects your damage output versus neutral targets." nature choices should just be in set details, they fit much better there.
  • C&C should be formatted slightly differently, like this:
**Electric-types**: <-- Two asterisks and a colon afterwards

Hope I helped, nice job bud.

Also, you should probably change the title to include [QC 0/3] and update it as you get checks.
 
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Disjunction

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Alright, I'll give some more feedback on this.
  • "Air Slash is your secondary STAB and is used for coverage on pokemon scald can't hit or are already status'd." Add what pokemon this hits, mainly grass-types such as vileplume and lilligant, while dealing more damage to fighting types so you dont have to risk a scald not burning.
  • "248 HP is a requirement on defensive Pokemon" This is not necessarily true as I said, but it is better worded as "248 HP gives mantine an odd HP number, which allows mantine to switch into stealth rock five times instead of four, if necessary"
  • "Most grass types are great partners for Mantine as they often give free switch ins to Fire types and Mega Steelix." Same thing here, add examples of the stuff like gourgeist / tangela / vileplume / lilligant, all of which can be good teammates depending on the playstyle of the team.
  • Add audino to team options as it provides wish and heal bell support, and appreciates mantine's fighting resistance.
  • "Your Hidden Power of choice here is grass so you can hit Seismitoad."
    Its better to say HP Grass smacks seismitoad or something, the way this is worded implies that there are other hidden powers you can run, which is not true. You missed this from earlier :s
  • "Air Slash reliable hits any grass types that want to switch in to your Hydro Pumps. It also scores some nice neutral damage on Water types and the rare Dragon type." Examples, same stuff
  • "Timid can be used over Modest on the Rain Dance set if you're frightened by base 95 Choice Scarf users, speed tie wars with Modest Ludicolo, or taking extra damage from Timid Ludicolo. Again, this greatly affects your damage output versus neutral targets." nature choices should just be in set details, they fit much better there.
  • C&C should be formatted slightly differently, like this:
**Electric-types**: <-- Two asterisks and a colon afterwards

Hope I helped, nice job bud.
I added Air Slash targets in the Offensive set, not the Defensive set, lol.
That's much better wording, yea, will make that change.
Missed one of those "expand more" when editting, will fix.
Ah, yeah, I thought about Audino when I was typing out Team Options in editing and I guess I forgot it somewhere half way through.
I did edit that, though. I took away "of choice" and just put "You Hidden Power here is grass"
Made that change too, you were probably making this post when I made the change lol
Will make that change
I just copied from another analyses on that so yea will make that change too

thx for the help bud :heart:
edit: made all dem changes
 
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soulgazer

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remove the haze slash, only mention it in moves.

honestly RD mantine isnt that great i would just give it a good mention in OO lol

update it with the drops; heliolisk is huge
 

ryan

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Agree with dropping Rain Dance to OO. It's not bad, but it competes a lot with Ludicolo offensively and Seismitoad both offensively and defensively (aka they both resist Fire).

I think I prefer 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD Calm over the current spread. Your Mantine is basically never going to be at full against a Blaze Typhlosion. The added physical bulk is just more valuable to me in helping Mantine check Fighting-types and stuff. The current spread is good for Set Details in case Mantine is like your only answer to Typhlosion.

Haze and Protect are supposed to be mentioned at the end of the Moves section with no slashes on the main set. Mantine really wants Air Slash to hit bulky Grass-types and to do anything against bulky Water-types, and the whole reason to run Protect is its synergy with Toxic. Protect is fine as a mention in Moves because some teams don't need the Flying-type coverage. Air Slash also wins important games.

I don't even think RestTalk is worth mentioning in OO. The only reason why I would even want Mantine to stick around long enough to keep checking things is on stall, where you are going to have Wish support anyways. It's way too passive, especially because you have a 2/3 chance of doing nothing while you're asleep. Hell, I'd probably rather run Rest without Sleep Talk than run RestTalk.

Specs isn't easier to switch into because it is forced to lock into a move. It's harder to switch into because you actually have some offensive presence, and it usually comes as a surprise anyways.
 

soulgazer

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just to make it clear: you don't need to run toxic with protect 100% of the time. both toxic+protect and air slash+protect work but obviously depends on the team (as in if you have toxic spikes, etc).
 

Disjunction

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-Moved Haze/Protect into Moves
-Moved RD Mantine into OO
-Added Lisk to Checks/Counters
-Removed Resttalk from OO
-Editted description on Specs
-Changed the EV spread on the defensive spread. +2 Return from Gatr to max defense doesn't KO after Rocks, Jolly CB Sawk doesn't 2hko without rocks, etc.

Thanks for the input :0 gonna get around to doing Toge edits in about an hour when I get back from lunch
 

Punchshroom

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The Overview can probably place greater importance on Mantine's great typing, giving it marvelous resists in exchange for relatively few weaknesses. However, it should also mention its competition with Pelipper, which has greater physical bulk and access to reliable recovery.

Great answer to smash pass, fire spam, and a decent answer to fighting types.
Considering Haze isn't even a main move on the main set, you should probably place less emphasis on this. You probably need to make it clearer that Mantine would have go out of its way to counter SmashPass by saying maybe 'Mantine also has access to Haze to counter SmashPass if need be' (which would be an advantage it has over Pelipper) or something along those lines. Btw, Mantine also answers Water-types such as Ludicolo and Samurott very well, so you can just replace the smash pass mention with Water-types.

Great abilities with Water Absorb and Swift Swim
We know by this point Swift Swim isn't so great for Mantine.

Crippling weakness to electric.
If you're going to bring this up you might as well mention its other weakness to Freeze-Dry as well.

Haze single-handedly crushes smash pass as both Gorebyss and Huntail cannot touch Mantine. Haze also functions as a great tool against Feraligatr as it keeps any boosting in check while taking little from any coverage options.
Haze also allows Mantine to stop Calm Mind users, such as SubCM Uxie, Musharna, and Mega Audino.

You should explain what the current EV spread does for Mantine in Set Details (survive 2HKO from Jolly CB Sawk while maintaining optimum all-rounded bulk).

Giving you Mantine Choice Specs can be used as an option for immediate wall breaking power. Being infamously passive, Mantine can catch an opponent off-guard with its new-found offensive pressure.
Elaborate why Mantine has wallbreaking potential despite its average 80 SpA (namely its good dual STABs that have good neutral coverage, and high bulk makes it difficult for defensive teams to break through quickly).

**Electric Types**:
Electric types like Rotom, Electivire, and Lanturn all threaten to score a massive chunk of Mantine's HP, if not OHKO, limiting its switch-in opportunities.
**Heliolisk**:
Heliolisk has an incredibly safe switch in to Mantine. Dry Skin makes Heliolisk immune to Mantine's Water STAB's and it naturally resists Air Slash. Being able to threaten out Mantine with its Electric STAB's gives Heliolisk plenty of room to work with.
Heliolisk can be merged with Electric-types with it being placed on the forefront due to its ease of switching in, followed by Lanturn which can also Heal Bell away status. Other Electric-types can follow suit, being mentioned purely for their ability to KO Mantine quickly.

**Bulky Water Types/ Residual Damage**:
Other bulky, water-type Pokemon can score a Toxic in most cases and stall out large chunks of Mantine's HP.
Bulky Waters should not be a section at all since Mantine can counter most of them itself, plus Mantine is just weak to residual damage in general regardless of the opponent's type. Just mention 'Residual Damage' as its own section, while noting Mantine's inability to recover and name some notable status users (Seismitoad, Weezing, etc.). Stealth Rock is especially notable by the way, as repeated hits from SR can even prevent Mantine from Defogging them in the long run.

**Fast Rock Types**:
Max Speed Rhydon and Archeops can outspeed Mantine and threaten it with powerful Rock coverage.
Barbaracle, Jolly Carracosta, and even physical Aurorus can be thrown in there too. However, I'm pretty sure these aren't the only non Electic-type attackers to threaten Mantine; what about strong physical attackers (especially those unaffected by burn, such as Swellow and Zangoose) or Pokemon with Electric-type coverage, such as Magmortar, Klinklang, and even Mega Steelix?

**Freeze Dry**:
Pokemon like Cryogonal packing Freeze Dry coverage can often times find many safe switch ins to Mantine and threaten it with this x4 effective attack.
The bolded statement is false; Aurorus dislikes switching into Scald but can easily force Mantine out regardless. Also u can add Articuno here as well.

Do all this and QC 1/3
 
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Disjunction

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The Overview can probably place greater importance on Mantine's great typing, giving it marvelous resists in exchange for relatively few weaknesses. However, it should also mention its competition with Pelipper, which has greater physical bulk and access to reliable recovery.


Considering Haze isn't even a main move on the main set, you should probably place less emphasis on this. You probably need to make it clearer that Mantine would have go out of its way to counter SmashPass by saying maybe 'Mantine also has access to Haze to counter SmashPass if need be' (which would be an advantage it has over Pelipper) or something along those lines. Btw, Mantine also answers Water-types such as Ludicolo and Samurott very well, so you can just replace the smash pass mention with Water-types.


We know by this point Swift Swim isn't so great for Mantine.


If you're going to bring this up you might as well mention its other weakness to Freeze-Dry as well.


Haze also allows Mantine to stop Calm Mind users, such as SubCM Uxie, Musharna, and Mega Audino.

You should explain what the current EV spread does for Mantine in Set Details (survive 2HKO from Jolly CB Sawk while maintaining optimum all-rounded bulk).


Elaborate why Mantine has wallbreaking potential despite its average 80 SpA (namely its good dual STABs that have good neutral coverage, and high bulk makes it difficult for defensive teams to break through quickly).


Heliolisk can be merged with Electric-types with it being placed on the forefront due to its ease of switching in, followed by Lanturn which can also Heal Bell away status. Other Electric-types can follow suit, being mentioned purely for their ability to KO Mantine quickly.


Bulky Waters should not be a section at all since Mantine can counter most of them itself, plus Mantine is just weak to residual damage in general regardless of the opponent's type. Just mention 'Residual Damage' as its own section, while noting Mantine's inability to recover and name some notable status users (Seismitoad, Weezing, etc.). Stealth Rock is especially notable by the way, as repeated hits from SR can even prevent Mantine from Defogging them in the long run.


Barbaracle, Jolly Carracosta, and even physical Aurorus can be thrown in there too. However, I'm pretty sure these aren't the only non Electic-type attackers to threaten Mantine; what about strong physical attackers (especially those unaffected by burn, such as Swellow and Zangoose) or Pokemon with Electric-type coverage, such as Magmortar, Klinklang, and even Mega Steelix?


The bolded statement is false; Aurorus dislikes switching into Scald but can easily force Mantine out regardless. Also u can add Articuno here as well.

Do all this and QC 1/3
righteous ok finally getting back to this. made all the above changes, I believe. lmk if I missed anything !.!
 
Signal beam hits malamar so it should probably be mentioned somewhere, it also prevenrd eviolite sneasel from setting up if it doesn't get burnt
 

Punchshroom

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Signal beam hits malamar so it should probably be mentioned somewhere, it also prevenrd eviolite sneasel from setting up if it doesn't get burnt
There is no need for Mantine to go out of its way to hit these Pokemon when said Pokemon aren't likely to risk themselves getting Hazed / Scald burned. Signal Beam doesn't do very significant damage that Scald and Air Slash doesn't already do anyway.
 
yay

When you are mentioning Fire-type and other Pokemon type, make sure you use the right formatting (Fire-type Pokemon, not Fire type Pokemon) and their are a few capitalization errors

no content issues though so 3/3
 

Disjunction

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yay

When you are mentioning Fire-type and other Pokemon type, make sure you use the right formatting (Fire-type Pokemon, not Fire type Pokemon) and their are a few capitalization errors

no content issues though so 3/3
oh righteous (guess I missed this update somehow ?.?) made the corrections, we're ready for GP
edit: did dat
 
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