Major League Gaming, GameBattles and Pokemon!

[Odinwolf]

I am a Major League Gaming staff member and I'm here to get some advice from the Smogon community about Pokemon. For more information about MLG, go to:

http://www.mlgpro.com

One of the gaming websites that MLG runs is GameBattles, a free competitive gaming ladder/tournament site where gamers from all over the world compete. While these ladders have been mostly focused on consoles in the past, we are planning on adding DS and PSP handheld divisions very soon. I am a big fan of pokemon D/P and after talking things over with the GameBattles admins, we decided that I should come to a dedicated Pokemon battling community and get your opinions on the rules we want to use.

We have the ability to run multiple ladders, so we're not just limited to one ruleset. Thus far, I am thinking about running an Ubers Ladder and a Standard Ladder for sure. Obviously, I want to get the opinion of the community on the rule sets for Ubers and Standard. I would also like to know if there are any other ladders that would actually get played if we added them. Would it be worth our time to run something like 2v2 or Little Cup? Would people play ladders like those enough for them to be worth the effort to organize? If so, what kinds of rules would you recommend?

I know that the D/P metagame is still working itself out, so rules might have to be changed over time. That's not a problem. However, I would like your opinion on how we could protect our users from cheating once this all got started.

So please feel free to discuss all the points I brought up and offer any other important insights you have to offer. I want as much information as possible so that we can make GameBattles a place that pokemon fans want to come compete. You can learn more about GameBattles here:

http://www.gamebattles.com

THANKS!!!

 

[Firestorm]

I'd be interested. I for one wouldn't play 2v2 since it requires a dedicated team. With the DS games, it's hard to run multiple teams. So unless you started doing tournaments in Competitor (very unlikely) I wouldn't be up to that.

1v1 Standards is what I'd like to do, maybe Little Cup as that doesn't require much effort. I would definitely participate. Always been interested in participating in something with MLG but the only games you had that I played was SSBM. And MLG never came near Vancouver anyway.

 

[Andren]

So are we recommending rules or saying if we'd participate?

I think I would participate, as long as rules were balanced.

For Rules, I'd say it would be easiest to manage the rules in the "Battle Me" thread for Standard (found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25041)

As far as Ubers, I'd just say Species, Item, and Sleep Clause.

Like Firestorm said, Double Battles take a really well thought out team (i.e. planning out Surfs and Earthquakes), which might push some of the potential competitors away.

Little Cup would be easy enough to do, but there would be obvious restrictions (I think it's still being debated, but all of the Pokes who have baby forms aren't allowed) along with the regular rules.

 

[Surgo]

Welcome to Smogon! I'm an administrator here, so I'm pretty well-qualfiied to answer your questions.

Species and Sleep clause are obvious no matter the ruleset. Item clause should be a side option and never the default. It makes a really good side-tournament option. I would also recommend the ban of OHKO moves.

A Little Cup ladder would be a complete waste of time. Little Cup is mostly meant to be a fun diversion.

I'm no fan of 2v2, and there are many fewer competitive players that like 2v2 compared to 1v1. That doesn't rule out a 2v2 ladder, but you need to keep that in mind.

OU and Uber ladders for 1v1 sound quite excellent, you would likely get a lot of interest there. They make very good "default" metagames.


I wrote the rules that Andren is referring to, and they are not entirely meant for standard; they are meant to reveal as little information about your team when challenging as possible while still remaining reasonably close to standard. For example, OHKOs are not banned by default, and Manaphy is not considered uber.

 

[Krul]

I see cheating as a MAJOR problem. I occasionally visit MLG for Halo stuff, and Pokemon is a lot easier to cheat in than the games you advertise for competition. It would take a fair amount of team checking of each player to make sure that cheating is held off. EV spreads should be required from all players, to make sure that they are 1. Legal 2. IV's are also legal. Good luck.

 

[Odinwolf]

So how would players go about checking each other's pokemon to assure that there was no cheating going on? Open up a trade window and inspect the pokemon? Is there any other way to defend against cheaters?

 

[mirza]

So how would players go about checking each other's pokemon to assure that there was no cheating going on? Open up a trade window and inspect the pokemon? Is there any other way to defend against cheaters?

In reality, players will simply have to trust each other. :( Also, you could run your tournaments like Smogon's 1st Wifi tourney was held. Moderators have damage calculators at hand and they have a channel on MIRC for everyone to use.(For easy communication) If someone is suspected of cheating, moderators can ask to check the player's pokemon, and the player must comply. It takes some work, but it seemed to work really well in the last tourney iirc. You just need a good team of moderators who know a fair amount about competitive play, and Smogon has great mods imo.

Good luck with everything, and I'd be happy to join!

 

[TTS]

I talked to someone claiming to be from MLG a few months ago on IRC about this, and while I'm not sure if you're the same person, my opinion is the same.

It isn't viable. There's no way to confirm who won/lost a match if there is a dispute between players, same with rule violations, disconnects, and so on. It's just too open to lying and cheating to be worth attempting, imo.

 

[Odinwolf]

Well, any game that MLG runs for online events will run into these kinds of issues unless players are pro-active about defending themselves. For GameBattles matches, we advocate that players take screen shots and shoot video so there is evidence if someone cheats them. There is also a reporting system, so players can contest cheaters and of course, players can always stick with playing against other players with good reputations.

Now, I'm aware that pokemon might be more sensitive to this sort of thing considering that most of the vital, hackable stats are actually hidden. So players would have to be even more vigilant in defending themselves against cheaters, which would drive some people away. But I still believe that it could work if the players and the community are active in identifying cheaters, reporting them to refs and protecting themselves with videos.

Here's a crazy question... would it be easier to prevent cheating if Poke-battles happened on the Wii instead of over WiFi on the DS? Since PBR turns anything with broken stats into a bad egg, we could at least dodge the sharked stats. That would also make it easier for many players to record their matches, so if cheaters used non-viable movesets it would be fairly easy to prove.

Would players be open to battling over PBR and Wii? Any thoughts?

 

[leafgreen386]

PBR would be ideal, anyway, as far as I'm concerned, since there are some aspects of the match that you can control that would normally be impossible (ie. freeze clause), or monitor more closely (ie. sleep and species clause). Plus, battles look better on the wii ;)

 

[GB_Packers_Ftw]

It would be cool on the wii, but the problem is no one has one.

 

[Surgo]

Playing on PBR would be the ideal situation. The problem is that many excellent players do not have PBR, a Wii, or even a television.

 

[Odinwolf]

But if the opinion of the community is that the only way to really do it right would be to do it on the Wii, then that might be the BEST way to run the ladders and avoid the cheating problems.

I guess it would be a matter of what the community really wants. Would the community want more accessibility, which would in turn make it tougher to deal with cheaters? Or would you prefer a more limited accessibility by playing it on the Wii and make it much harder for cheaters to prosper?

I'm not saying those are the ONLY options, but I want to explore all the options so that poke-fans get the very BEST experience from MLG. We don't like to do things half-heartedly and we certainly don't want our players to feel cheated or like they aren't getting the best from being a part of our sites.

Any other ideas or comments on the Wii/PBR option?

 

[Heretic]

Wow, what a coincidence. I just got through watching some of the Dallas GoW WB on VoD and come here and find that MLG is actually interested in PKMN for GB. Pwnage. As for my opinion, PBR is the way to go. Aside from friendcodes it is more of a streamlined experience, does the bad egg thing, is easier to get GOOD pics and video for proof, and is prettier to look at. : ) I am aware that some of the best minds of PKMN don't have access to it, but it is up to them if they want to be part of the community enough to get it or not. As MLG knows full and well, you can't please everyone.
As for the ladders I personally like 2v2 OU as one and 1v1 OU as the other. Despite winning JAA Memphis and doing decent at the nationals in NYC I in no way see myself being as good at the game as alot of the guys that hang out here so it is highly possible my love for 2v2 actually should be overlooked for a 1v1 Ubers ladder. My problem with Ubers as a ladder is that the same depth can't be found in it as in OU. To me it just seems instead of having such a shallow metagame you could have 2v2, which has amazing potential for evolving into a solid metagame of its own if given the chance. The only upside to Ubers would be to draw in less experienced players, imo.
I love competitive PKMN, and am a LONG, LONG time follower of MLG. Seeing the two together would make my day.

 

[-FL-]

This looks like an excellent idea to me, and I'd love to compete in this. The rules won't be problem I guess, but I sincerely discourage the fact of implementing Item Clause ):, I just hate it.

And being honest will be a very important part of this, perhaps a crucial one. It's true that there isn't a 100% accurate way to prove who won in a match, but it is up to us, the players, to be honest.

(BAN ME PLEASE) should be banned, as it's always been. I agree with all that smogonish stuff to review posible hacks or weird stuff.

Good Luck.

 

[Tinnacious]

Wow, I can't believe this is happening. Maybe Pokemon will be taken seriously for once.

XD

 

[massi4h]

OMG, MLG hosting pokemon this seems awesome. Self-KO clause should also be enforced of course. I'm not sure about this, but if PBR can disable freeze clause, that should be added, if PBR is being used. I don't have a wii, so I disagree on it lol.
Representing New Zealand would be great.

(PS. add Tetris DS to the tournaments)

 

[Firestorm]

(BAN ME PLEASE) should be banned, as it's always been.

This is discrimination!

PBR would probably be fairest. Sadly, not everyone has a Wii, but it does have the easiest to enforce clauses and would make for the fairest matches aside from using Competitor.

PBR would allow for a system that enforces sleep clause, freeze clause, self-ko clause all by itself. None of those "What if I Encore and he gets put to sleep" or "What if I metronome Spore" moments. Drawbacks are of course less people would be able to play and it would be LV50 All instead of LV100.

 

[Odinwolf]

Can't you play LV100 under the friend code battles? Or at least free battle?

 

[Heretic]

Can't you play LV100 under the friend code battles? Or at least free battle?

If you can't set the levels to 100 like on DS I know for a fact you can do free up to lv100.

 

[VashTheStampede]

This seems interesting... I will look into it more tomorrow night after the Tournament, or more likely Sunday night.

Glad that MLG is willing to pair up with Pokemon, and you definitely came to the right place.

 

[Omega]

I personally don't have pbr, or even a wii for that matter.

Back on subject, the most ideal way to run matches, like many others have already mentioned, is using PBR, because of its semi hack filter, and its ability to set rules, like your sleep and whatever clauses. There wouldn't be any nonsense about "I thought his Blissey had Natural Cure" and whatever.

 

[Footnote]

Can't you play LV100 under the friend code battles? Or at least free battle?

You can set it to level 50, which is for all intents and purposes just as good. Users will simply have to tweak their HP EVs for the purposes of Subs, Leftovers, etc. Honestly, Smogon as a whole should move to L.50 battling as the standard. Nintendo is clearly moving in that direction, starting with the Battle Frontier in Emerald and now having it as the only level to which Pokémon can be automatically adjusted in PBR.

 

[Dreadite]

Facinating!

I think the concensus is largely correct: PBR is the only way to go, since it makes cheating much more difficult. While it would cut some folks (including me) out temporarily (as I expect it won't _always_ be so difficult to get ahold of a Wii), it's the way to fly, with both rules clauses able to be set, and anti-hacking measures.

1v1 and Ubers both sound like very solid plans, however, I'd like to see 2v2. However, 2v2 has less of a dedicated following, but I'd imagine with all the people out there it might be worth trying at the very least.

Good luck with this! I'm looking forward to it, for one. Also, yes, forcing to level 50 is more than acceptable, and convenient to boot!

 

[Forsety]

I'm highly in favour of a major league and earlier suggestions are correct.

PBR is the way to go as it has major safeguards against cheating and all the default rulesets automatically installed.

I do believe I'm right in saying though that 2vs2 should be left as later consideration until you can get a proper well enforced standard scene going as that is where the real competition is considering the scale we're talking here.

Unfortunately PBR would rule out some people but it is the only realistic way you could have self moderation. DS wifi battles would be viable but difficult to enforce and it'd require a referee to be present for every single battle to trade check people teams for hacked stats or moves just before a game starts.

Throw in the problem of DS Wifi battles where its difficult to enforce item clause, sleep clause, self KO clause (It allows a draw even if you self destruct your last pokemon) basically all the standard rules.

I think the only other problem to address would be the move specific bans which could easily be managed through pre-match referee inspection. Double Team ban, OHKO ban which many people encourage and I believe still is being debated at the moment for the current generation.

It worked for the Smogon Wifi tournament but that was quite small scale and I recall there was a case of a cheater who still somehow managed to get quite far before being disqualified.