excpet these arent guaranteed, because stat drop.
these new abilities sound fun
and Avalugg with Recover? Slack Off would've fit so much better... but I should be happy he has recovery
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Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)
- Thread starter GCSChris
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these new abilities sound fun
and Avalugg with Recover? Slack Off would've fit so much better... but I should be happy he has recovery
It learns Swords Dance??? Well I just made myself look stupid by completely ignoring the fact that it has Swords Dance. Fuck. Well yeah that is huge. Sorry about that guys :/
What the conversation of what Talonflame can do is basically related to what we need to ask each ourselves. What can Talonflame do that Staraptor or Swellow can't. All three are similar in that they are heavy hitting birds, have access to priority or Momentum, and have the coverage to back themselves up. We need to find out rather if Talonflame is worthy to be choosen over Swellow or Staraptor. Swellow is obviously outclassed because Talonflame is faster, doesn't need protect to setup, and doesn't have extreme paper thin defenses. The main argument begins to where if it can outclass Staraptor or be in an equal standing with it.
Staraptor and Talonflame are similar in that they both can be used to gain momentum [Both learn U-Turn], decent coverage moves, and both have the ability to gain monstrous powers. That is where the similarities stop however. Unlike Talonflame that needs to run a Swords Dance set to become effective, Staraptor is already a dangerous threat from the get go being able to run sets with Choice Scarf/Band or to flat out go for a fully aggressive class with Life Orb. Talonflame cannot. What Talonflame makes up for it's lack of Attack however, is for Priority Roost/Tailwind, better defenses, and a unique typing. With that, even Mamoswine cannot KO Talonflame with LO Priority Ice Shard. However, taking a turn to setup sweep is always a risky move in the meta and even though Talonflame has impressive speed he cannot punch through things that Flare Blitz does not cover like Heatran.
So in short. Talonflame shouldn't be in OU and i'd expect him to be in UU or even Borderline. It has a good niche in it give the right support he can destroy a lot of things in front of it. It's more or less similar to Moltres in that respect. When you get him to setup he will wreck shop. Given the wrong support and he is useless.
Staraptor and Talonflame are similar in that they both can be used to gain momentum [Both learn U-Turn], decent coverage moves, and both have the ability to gain monstrous powers. That is where the similarities stop however. Unlike Talonflame that needs to run a Swords Dance set to become effective, Staraptor is already a dangerous threat from the get go being able to run sets with Choice Scarf/Band or to flat out go for a fully aggressive class with Life Orb. Talonflame cannot. What Talonflame makes up for it's lack of Attack however, is for Priority Roost/Tailwind, better defenses, and a unique typing. With that, even Mamoswine cannot KO Talonflame with LO Priority Ice Shard. However, taking a turn to setup sweep is always a risky move in the meta and even though Talonflame has impressive speed he cannot punch through things that Flare Blitz does not cover like Heatran.
So in short. Talonflame shouldn't be in OU and i'd expect him to be in UU or even Borderline. It has a good niche in it give the right support he can destroy a lot of things in front of it. It's more or less similar to Moltres in that respect. When you get him to setup he will wreck shop. Given the wrong support and he is useless.
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I just battled a Siglyph in the wild, and Whirlind did nothing to my Swirlix. Is it back to gen 1 mechanics, or did they just make it so you can't get phazed in the wild?
PK Gaming Aegislash can counter Lucario's with Ice Punch and respond back with Sacred Sword or Will-o-Wisp. Against Lucario's with Crunch it becomes a guessing game with King's Shied because if Lucario attacks Aegislash sharply reduces its attack and can proceed to respond back with a Sacred Sword.
edit: I'd would like to note with Talonflame Adamant will probably be the way to go. You would really only want the speed to hit targets with your Fire-STAB before you attack. Currently in OU however, there is nothing that is faster than base 108 but slower than base 120 that resists Flying. Your Fire-STAB is there to KO the Steel-types that would resist your Flying STAB, so Adamant is superior because they are all slower and get a boost it power to guareentee KO's on Steel-types.
+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 210-248 (54.4 - 64.24%)
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 62-73 (20.87 - 24.57%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Talonflame can ko stuff WITHOUT suiciding, doesnt need life orb or choice items, doesnt need a jolly nature, doesnt give a shit about any switch in (because there is NO switch in for it), your best bet is max hp ttar which still takes 50% MINIMUM. Good luck coming in again. Staraptor on the other hand is forced to rely on a recoil move, is easily revenge killed, walled by skarmory and dont have swords dance which forces it to run life orb/choice band. I dont even see a comparison here. Staraptor has the immediate power, while talonflame has the right tools for sweeping. However there are a shit ton of mons who are much better wallbreakers than staraptor around here, while no physical sweeper boasts talonflame combination of nearly unresisted stab coverage, insane base 130 speed, priority on its MAIN STAB move and access to swords dance.
Hmm....if Mega Lucario doesn't carry Crunch, than Aegislash is a pretty good counter because it's immune to Close Combat, and resists Bullet Punch and Ice Punch. Jellicent can also switch into any of its moves and threaten to cripple it with a Will-O-Wisp. If Mega Lucario chooses to run Crunch, then I honestly have no idea. Gliscor and Pivot Landorus-T are both 2HKOed by Close Combat at +2. Even Slowbro is 2HKOed! To tell you the truth, I think Mega Lucario will ALWAYS run Crunch to get passed Ghost-types. Your only hope of properly beating this thing is checking it, which isn't easy either, seeing as it as blistering Speed. Looks like this thing will be near uncounterable, unless some Fairy-type that is neutral to Bullet Punch becomes OU, but even then, it needs to be very bulky. Azumarill maybe?
Jellicent would be a pretty great check to sets without Crunch, especially with the new boosted accuracy of Will-O-Wisp. You can add Slowbro to that as well to a lesser extent, though Slowbro can paralyze it, which is also pretty great. As for sets with Crunch, Fairy-types are going to come into play here for sure, resisting both Close Combat and Crunch. Azumarill actually resists every move on both sets bar Bullet Punch, but with limited information on it right now, who knows how it will do against it. Scarf Keldeo can revenge it pretty well, as can Scarf Landorus-T, I'd imagine. It definitely doesn't have a lot of really good checks based on theorymonning, but who knows !_!
edit: also Talonflame can use priority Brave Bird or Acrobatics against it =)
Aegislash is a pretty solid counter if it runs Ice Punch. If it uses Crunch then it has to be weary of King's Shield. Jellicent should also be a good counter if it uses Ice Punch. Landorus-T and Gliscor are good counters if it uses Crunch. Scarf Keldeo resists BP, and Azumarril resists its entire moveset and could possibly revenge kill.
Aegishield can scare it away provided it doesn't switch in. It has King Shield, doesn't take effect from it's hardest hitting move, laughs at BP and doesn't care about Ice Punch at all. The Crunch can be dealt with but again, you either switch as it SD's are wait for the fodder to die and bring it in clean. If it's not bulky to your taste then a No Guard eviolite Doublade can come in and cripple it.
Physical-Mega-Lucario's counters are going be the same as Lucario now depending on which move it runs: Crunch or Ice Punch. 4 slot move syndrome is a bitch.
I am honestly move concerned about mixed versions.
I am honestly move concerned about mixed versions.
Oh yeah, I forgot about it's overkill special attack. That said, I think Bullet Punch will be mandatory, otherwise Fairy-types will be able to wall you.
Maybe it won't completely dominate like I anticipated, there are a ton of Fighting-type resists now. Time will tell, but i'm keeping my fingers crossed.
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I counted 8 turns of Sandstorm.
Thinking about it, with the new Fairy typing, Iron Tail and Iron Head may become legit coverage options on all the Pokemon whose STAB is resisted by Fairy. Dragons like Haxorus could run Iron Tail to catch such Pokemon on the switch (although Azumarill is neutral to it :( ). Dark-types like Absol could find a Fighting move less necessary since Steel doesn't resist Dark anymore, too. Thoughts?
There's a problem with this logic. First things first, despite doing a hefty chunk of damage to Heatran you forgot two things that heatran can do to prevent Talonflame. Roar and Stealth Rocks. Plus Staraptor has a high calculation to KO Heatran with it's Choice Band set. Something Talonflame CANNOT do.
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Heatran [Specially Defensive]: 384-452 (99.74 - 117.4%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
Skarmory also walls Talonflame despite taking a heafty chunk of damage as Skarmory has both Sturdy AND Whirlwind to phaze Talonflame out. Plus there are pokemon that can outspeed Talonflame naturally if he is Adamant nature such as Starmie, Dugtrio, Alakazam, Raikou, Jolteon, and etc. Jolly means that only Choice Scarf users that have a base speed above 71. [Leading it down to Honchkrow] That means that Choice Scarf Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Starmie, Rotom-W, and more can threaten Talonflame and easily revenge kill it. Not to say it isn't bad, there are just too many threats in OU for it to function properly in the way you described it.
Slowbro 100% walls MegaLucario with Ice Punch. There's totally nothing he can do to beat Slowbro 1on1 with it.
Nidoqueen beats both versions, but she needs to be healthy to take +2 Ice Punch. With Jolly it hits:
72.92%-85.94%
With Adamant:
79.69%- 94.27%
2,56% chance to OHKO with SR up, but I think Lucario must use Jolly Nature to avoid being outspeeded by stuff like Keldeo or Infernape, which resist his priority Bullet Punch.
Looking further, Intimidate Defensive Gyarados also is great pick against MegaLucario.
+2 Ice Punch Adamant
30.96%-36.55%
+2 Crunch Adamant
32.99%-39.09%
+2 Close Combat Adamant
37.06%-43.65%
While Waterfall hits -1 Lucario for...
91.10%-107.83%
There's always super-niche Weezing, which 100% stop it cold whatever it runs, but yeah, not the most viable pick unless for heavy stall, although it may be a lil-bit better with fairies around.
I'm pretty sure Skarmory can't survive +2 Flare Blitz coming from Talonflame, unless it has sturdy up. And all of those you mentioned go down to +2 Acrobatics Flying Gem 100% of time, which gain priority (even 4 HP Rotom-W drop in one hit while resisting it with SR up). Not sure about Raikou, but I may check it, but IMO it also goes down.
Talonflame has flare blitz. If your definition of walling is ''surviving a hit at 1hp thanks to sturdy'', then yes skarmory ''walls'' talonflame in the same way that it ''walls'' volcarona. It has PRIORITY on acrobatics. Only extremespeed users can outspeed it (and guess what, it only hits for neutral damage). It seriously looks like youre trying to manipulate facts to make your argument.
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