Liepard Suspect Discussion (Read post #202)

[Punchshroom]

Both pokemon are very popular in NU; Liepard's win condition is to kill Sawk while leaving Golem alive, then set up Stealth Rock. Liepard cannot use Assist much before Sawk dies or the win condition is ruined. Liepard will commonly lose; if you're an experienced player with a little creativity, you can switch in Gothorita to trick a Sticky Barb to Sawk and then stall it out. This takes foresight, skill, and critical team building.
Oh, you are going to switch to Sawk on my Ditto? Let me just Nasty Plot up here and either phaze you back out or stall your Close Combats with Substitute until you get weakened enough for +2 Dark Pulse to OHKO. This can also appliy to Samurott who is phazed back out after Nasty Plot and risks a lot by switching back in if the SRer is phazed in again. AssistPard can adapt to counter-situations just as well, or even better, than Riolu can (if only because they are much rarer).


Kangaskhan needs to die or Liepard needs room to sub in order to make the win condition consistent; you may still win, but bad luck with Whirlwind will have Liepard dead before you can deal substantial damage to your opponent's team. In this scenario, you can use Ditto to deal with Kanga or you will have to get thinking on another way to wear it down; your team has little offense aside from Ditto, Focus Punch being unusable against a standard Kangaskhan. You can win, but you need effort and a little elbow grease.
Know what I use to deal with a Kangaskhan? Riolu, who can tempt Kangaskhan to go for Fake Out + Double-Edge (which Riolu survives) then proceed to Counter for a OHKO after the latter. Alternatively, forcing her to spam Double-Edge to weaken herself or Tricking her are also options.

Say your opponent is using RestTalk Cradily. Unless you have a nasty plot set up, Liepard will usually lose the 1v1 against Cradily. Your win condition is to find room to plot, sub, or both while whirlwinding through your opponent's team.
Or you could Trick the Cradily to render it useless. I will agree it is a handy stop to ShufflePard, but this isn't like Jynx, which practically forces you to run a check/counter but at least there are multiple, nor is Jynx a completely unstoppable force otherwise. Cradily is your only stop against ShufflePard in most cases, while your other members are useless against it. Trick Gothorita could very well screw it over too.

So;
"Uncompetitive" is a poor reason to ban something.
The Liepard assist strategy is not skilless; it simply has an alternative win condition and good and bad team matchups.
List the amount of bad team matchups that aren't singular Pokemon. Only a handful of Pokemon can actually stop the strategy, and if you don't have these the match could be decided turn 1.

If you look at metagame balance with your mindset, the game gets overcentralized, predictable, and boring. Your post does not tell us why the strategy isn't fit for competitive play, it tells us why the strategy is good.
A good strategy is one thing, but an overcentralising one is something else. The whole meta could otherwise delve into "use ShufflePard or use ShufflePard counter", there won't be any sort of diversity as a result. We'd essentially be seeing either Liepards or Cradily/Swellow/misc...if you don't have any of these, you won't survive long in the meta. Even then, ShufflePard has access to a slew of techs (the aforementioned Riolu and Gothorita) that could swing the matchup in its favor.

ban Assist + Whirlwind / Roar

Yeah I think this is the best way to go about this. Assist can't really be made use of any other way; Divecat can only use Fly because no immunities, and good luck killing stuff with unSTABed 90 base power move off 88 base Attack (at least there's Encore to discourage Protect & Sub, but still has issues KOing things :/ ), and it needs Iron Ball / Macho Brace so priority screws it over, to which Riolu and friends laughs at Liepard for its terrible use of Prankster. Then again, it's Liepard's combination of Prankster, ability to switch moves, natural speed and Dark STAB that makes it hard to deal with: Scarf Assist is stopped cold by Magic Bounce (Liepard can just Substitute to block Natu's Thunder Wave & Dark Pulse it) and cannot take advantage of switches for Ditto like NP Liepard can, while Purrloin is too damn slow. I know complex bans aren't a common fad, but it's likely the best compromise we can come up with, since banning Assist alone (which isn't broken in itself) seems a bit unfair, especially when we compare it to the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Pasadena, you seem to have misunderstood my post. I meant that when facing Liepard, you are bound to be put in a losing situation once Liepard phazes out your entry hazard user, because then you'll have to play extremely carefully between predicting a Ditto switch or a Liepard setup move. Even if you do predict right and say, attack Liepard while it subs, you then have to predict once again. If you switch to Sawk as they go into Ditto, you then either risk losing more momentum as they switch into Blimp or risk letting them have rocks if you mispredict. The Liepard user also has little risk involved since it can continuously shuffle in the Stealth Rock user, and as long as it isnt Ditto or Liepard, he can play very aggressively with his 4 other Pokemon.

Are you also trying to tell me that RestTalk Cradily and Kangaskhan can fit into every team? Kangaskhan can really only fit into offensive teams, and if I'm going to have to pick Kangaskhan over say, Tauros every time, then that really limits my teambuilding. RestTalk Cradily is legitimate, but how many teams can fit that in? Magic Coat is only really viable on things like Audino, Misdreavus, Golurk, and Bastiodon. The first three get set up on and Bastiodon can be defeated by Spikes damage or Shiftry. Tricking Kangaskhan the Flame Orb is also not the only way of beating it, like I said, Liepard can set up a Substitute on whatever cannot touch it or whenever the opponent predicts wrong, and from there, simply subs on the Fake Out and continues shuffling

 

[Electricstorm252]

Pokemon that lay down entry hazards, spin and break liepard's subs can be good. Torkoal, sandshrew and tentacool (if it breaks liepard's sub) work well. They are great walls and sandshrew resists rocks. If you use torkoal and sandshrew and the rest of your team can break lieprad's sub the lieprad team can't really do much. I know someone will say that they can't fit on every team, or that sandshrew sucks, but they do work well on most teams. If ditto comes in on ether torkoal or sandshrew just spam rapid spin and since all the offensive moves that the liepard's team can use don't hurt them (except nature power on torkoal). Taunt or trick it specs/scarf from your lieprad will cripple it if you win the speed tie. If Serperior is in before liepard it can spam taunt on everything except arboak which it out speeds and can go for a sub on. NU is different then the other metas because there are some many pokemon that do well in the tier, and from what I see people are saying that since this team beats standard it has to be banned.

 

[Punchshroom]

Pokemon that lay down entry hazards, spin and break liepard's subs can be good. Torkoal, sandshrew and tentacool (if it breaks liepard's sub) work well. They are great walls and sandshrew resists rocks. If you use torkoal and sandshrew and the rest of your team can break lieprad's sub the lieprad team can't really do much. I know someone will say that they can't fit on every team, or that sandshrew sucks, but they do work well on most teams. If ditto comes in on ether torkoal or sandshrew just spam rapid spin and since all the offensive moves that the liepard's team can use don't hurt them (except nature power on torkoal). Taunt or trick it specs/scarf from your lieprad will cripple it if you win the speed tie. NU is different then the other metas because there are some many pokemon that do well in the tier, and from what I see people are saying that since this team beats standard it has to be banned.

Pokemon that can Stealth Rock and spin are decent choices (Tentacool doesn't even have the optimal hazard for Liepard to abuse, so it will be phazed over anyway :P). Armaldo and Torkoal are the best choices, since they can threaten both Liepard and the Ditto switch-in with Earth Power or Rock Blast / Stone Edge (if Torkoal can Shell Smash on the Ditto switch-in, you're pretty set), then keep using Rapid Spin to deny the hazards Ditto tries to set down. If Ditto tries to attack or even KO them, it would lose the chance to lay down hazards.

However, Ditto can predict the Spin and switch to their Ghost, which threatens a Trick and forces your Spinners out, but Ditto can switch back in and copy your SRer. You could predict their switch-in, but if Ditto catches onto that and just lay down hazards, the same scenario occurs, except this time there are hazards on the field and you can't spin them away due to the Ghost followed by Liepard.

If Serperior is in before liepard it can spam taunt on everything except arboak which it out speeds and can go for a sub on.

Yeah, if. If it tries to set up a Sub on Arbok, hey presto free Liepard switch-in, and you wasted 25% of your health.

I hope this goes to show how ShufflePard teams can play around almost anything. I mean, it's not an easy breezethrough for ShufflePard all the time, but as it stands:
ShufflePard has an easy matchup against most teams, may struggle ocassionally.
Most teams lose to ShufflePard outright, may be able to fight back ocassionally.
I think we can see who has the advantage here.

 

[Electricstorm252]

However, Ditto can predict the Spin and switch to their Ghost, which threatens a Trick and forces your Spinners out, but Ditto can switch back in and copy your SRer

If you switch out on the turn that ditto comes in on it will transform into the pokemon that switches in so that probably isn't an issue. And when ditto came in every turn just rapid spin and since it normally is scarfed you would go last.

Yeah, if. If it tries to set up a Sub on Arbok, hey presto free Liepard switch-in, and you wasted 25% of your health.

With that I meant that use could leech seed or taunt if it did not switch out when you subed. How well you do depends on how standard your team is IMO.

 

[Metal Sonic]

Okay so today I tried to get more involved in the NU ladder(I've been trying to read the NU forum stuff but never actually laddered!) because of the Battle Castle Challenge (#8 on ladder wow that team is good)


I saw quite a few Liepard sets on the ladder, with Swagpard being discussed here and a few other sets like Twave/NPlot/Sub/Dark Pulse. However, I only saw 1 instance of Assistpard, and although it was extremely annoying I found that 1. it was too rare 2. Not necessarily more difficult to beat than CopyRoar Riolu.

I'd like to say some stuff about my limited experience with NU swagpards. The main gripe here that I have is that it is EXTREMELY ANNOYING. Hitting yourself in confusion is lame, Subspamming is extremely irritating, and it is hard to believe that this silly thing can even score kills! But it has Foul Play which capitalises on the increased Attack of your pokemon, not to mention Liepard is extremely fast naturally, so it can actually score a KO in theory with that.

Out of the majority of instances I saw of Swagpard, I have only lost 1 game to it (his liepard vs my 4 mons, 1-4 into 1-0). I'm not sure if this is due to my good luck, or I am just more skilled in countering or dealing with the atrocity that is Swagpard. I've seen this irritating cat in UU rather commonly, and it has never defeated me before(My counter was a Rhyperior with Rock Blast: Foul play does jack and Thunder Wave doesn't work. Best of all, Swagger even helped it to sweep once!). In parallels, we can use similar Ground types with Multi-hit moves as good counters: Piloswine, Rhydon, etc.

Next, stuff with Priority can beat it. Liepard cannot stop a AquaJetting Shellsmashed Carracosta. Even a Riolu can outtroll it. Or perhaps Ditto.

Finally, Physical Attackers with a Lum Berry will feel very, very happy with that Swagger boost.

However, Swagpard's irritating set results in a anticlimatic 1 minute of annoyance. On paper, this isn't bannable, but due to human nature, yeah we hate the cat pretty much.

 

[Punchshroom]

If you switch out on the turn that ditto comes in on it will transform into the pokemon that switches in so that probably isn't an issue. And when ditto came in every turn just rapid spin and since it normally is scarfed you would go last.
The Ghost is faster than your Stealth Rock Spinner, so Ditto will come in and Transform into your SRer before you switch out (which is how Ditto even gets hazards in the first place). You could predict Ditto switching-in and switch to an anti-hazarder, which I kinda doubt one would have if they already pack a Spinner.

With that I meant that use could leech seed or taunt if it did not switch out when you subed. How well you do depends on how standard your team is IMO.
Arbok could break your Sub with repeated Dragon Tails, then switch out to Liepard while you Sub, or you could try to Taunt the Liepard switch-in only to get Tailed. I know this is a 2-way thing, but Liepard usually does not have to go through with this while maintaining the advantage. On the other hand, if the victim wants a chance to retaliate, he/she pretty much has to go through with this prediction game every time. Also, standard teams struggle mightily with ShufflePard and have to resort to unorthodox things like Magic Coat, Cradily and Extreemespeed which are hardly seen otherwise.

 

[Metal Sonic]

I hope this goes to show how ShufflePard teams can play around almost anything. I mean, it's not an easy breezethrough for ShufflePard all the time, but as it stands:
ShufflePard has an easy matchup against most teams, may struggle ocassionally.
Most teams lose to ShufflePard outright, may be able to fight back ocassionally.
I think we can see who has the advantage here.

Honestly, what irks me more is the 48 turns Shufflepard wastes rather than losing the game outright. As long as you have Regenerators, Shufflepard teams automatically lose(I mean, seriously?) Just look at the team constraints that Shufflepard needs: Specific mons with specific moves. It's not the shufflepard that hurts, its its whole team concept.

 

[Electricstorm252]

When I said standard teams I meant the more standard your team is the harder time you will have, sorry for the confusion. I do see the flaw with Serperior. When a ditto comes in it transforms at the end of the turn, so if the ghost switches into ditto and you switch into something else it will transform in that else. If lampent had its hidden ability that's a whole different story. I would like thoughts on trick liepard though.

 

[Punchshroom]

When I said standard teams I meant the more standard your team is the harder time you will have, sorry for the confusion. I do see the flaw with Serperior. When a ditto comes in it transforms at the end of the turn, so if the ghost switches into ditto and you switch into something else it will transform in that else. If lampent had its hidden ability that's a whole different story.

If Ditto works the way you described it, Ditto would never get hazards whenever you switch your Stealth Rocker out. If that were the case, no one would be complaining at all. This scenario is essentially the same as Liepard phazing in the SRer and switching to Ditto to get hazards.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Remember that Arbok can simply use Snatch to get a free Substitute, then spam Dragon Tail from behind the Sub. And also, no (decent) Serperior would run Taunt and Sub on the same set!

Like Punchshroom mentioned, there are many ways to beat AssistCat, but most of them can be played around with little to no risk for the Liepard user.

I don't really agree with ban Assist+Phazing on the same team since it's pretty much a more complicated version of Assist+Prankster on the same Pokemon. Assist isn't uncounterable on every Pokemon that gets it, but Assist+Prankster kind of is (Purrloin wouldn't be half as bad as Liepard but it would still be pretty difficult)

 

[Pancham]

I was quite a big skeptic after I found out Liepard was being suspect tested. Although, after I cured my ignorance over the issue of Assist, I realized just how broken it really is. Being allowed to manipulate your team, and make a team that isn't fully useless, to use WhirlWind every time, and rack up residual damage through the use of Spikes, SR, status through orbs and Black Sludge damage collectively, I realized just how broken this strategy is. I do realize, however, that you can beat this team. If your opponent misplays, you can easily take advantage of it. Kangaskhan, as well as a max Spe Liepard, can easily put pressure on the Assist user.

Liepard as a whole, however, is quite... I wouldn't say broken, without Assist, but it is certainly a wonderful mon to use in the tier. Prankster along with Substitute, Encore, Swagger, Thunder Wave, Nasty Plot, etc. is quite handy. You can use Liepard as a pivot, as a set up sweeper, as a status spreader, and so many other things.

tl;dr: Liepard is a huge threat, and definitely deserves testing.

 

[Pen Ink]

So yesterday I did ladder a bit since I admittedly haven't played NU for awhile, and I did encounter two or three AssistPard teams. Two things I'd like to bring up:

1. A lot of players on the ladder DO NOT know how to carefully play this team. They normally copy+paste FLCL's team and don't know a thing about playing it. I wouldn't really base any conclusions on playing a few ladder matches against it. I only say this because it seems like a lot of people in this thread are deeming it unbroken just because they use Suction Cups Cradily, Leftovers Kangaskhan, Regeneration cores, etc. I'd look at the bigger picture that this team has very few counters. However, this team doesn't appear to be overcentralizing because there isn't a lot of them running around on the ladder, which kind of gives the appearance that this team doesn't affect the metagame as much as it really does.
2. Banning something like this is not going to make the tier "lackluster". You could say that with AssistPard running around people have to be more involved in their teambuilding (not jynx/scoli/rott/zard/sawk/filler or whatever), but if you're really that scared it just forces you to run a bad set check for a team that you probably won't see much of anyway. It's not fun to play against and while the strategy is brilliant in its own sense, I feel like it ruins the tier's competitive in a way that nothing really does. Jynx has viable checks, Scolipede has viable checks, Sawk has viable checks, however AssistPard really does not. Really, the tier was fine before AssistPard; if we ban it, nothing will have changed.

I feel a bit redundant but that's okay I guess.

 

[Blast]

1. A lot of players on the ladder DO NOT know how to carefully play this team. They normally copy+paste FLCL's team and don't know a thing about playing it. I wouldn't really base any conclusions on playing a few ladder matches against it. I only say this because it seems like a lot of people in this thread are deeming it unbroken just because they use Suction Cups Cradily, Leftovers Kangaskhan, Regeneration cores, etc. I'd look at the bigger picture that this team has very few counters. However, this team doesn't appear to be overcentralizing because there isn't a lot of them running around on the ladder, which kind of gives the appearance that this team doesn't affect the metagame as much as it really does.

Just because a bunch of ladder noobs can't use this team effectively doesn't mean it doesn't work. There are a billion different teams noobs can't use because, well, they're noobs. The point is that if an EXPERIENCED player uses this team, they have the potential to beat just about anyone else with the right prediction.

Also, we've already gone over that usage stats don't determine overcentralizing or viability at all. You might not see this team that much but it doesn't change the fact that if you don't prepare for it you're gonna get utterly smashed by it.

 

[Pen Ink]

Just because a bunch of ladder noobs can't use this team effectively doesn't mean it doesn't work. There are a billion different teams noobs can't use because, well, they're noobs. The point is that if an EXPERIENCED player uses this team, they have the potential to beat just about anyone else with the right prediction.

Also, we've already gone over that usage stats don't determine overcentralizing or viability at all. You might not see this team that much but it doesn't change the fact that if you don't prepare for it you're gonna get utterly smashed by it.

Did you not read the second part of that post? I am all for banning it because in the hands of a skilled player it is very hard to stop with few checks. I simply pointed that about because it seems like a lot of people are using ladder battles against noobs as their evidence to not ban it.

Unless you're speaking in general and I misunderstood...

 

[The Immortal]

I completed the battle reqs and figure I should post. I'm not a good poster, so don't bite my head off.

I believe the issue being debated here is basically the Assist strategy as seen here, and not the slightly uncompetitive Swagger set. The problem with this strategy, and the reason why I feel this strategy is not an issue, is that it requires you to literally make an entire team around it. One can prepare for this strategy by using, for example, Liepard with Taunt or a Magic Coat user. When you prepare for Assist, your opponents team becomes useless.

PS: I have neither faced someone using the Assist strategy nor used it myself.

 

[Metal Sonic]

Just because a bunch of ladder noobs can't use this team effectively doesn't mean it doesn't work. There are a billion different teams noobs can't use because, well, they're noobs. The point is that if an EXPERIENCED player uses this team, they have the potential to beat just about anyone else with the right prediction.

That goes with about any other team. You aren't necessarily making a point against Assistpard.

___

Anyway, I shall refer to the FLCL team posted above for argument's sake. The team has no hazard setters at all. It relies on Ditto to set up.

So don't bring in your hazard setter at all! If it gets forced it, switch it out!

I know the above was theorymon, but I find no (logical) reason for the banning of Assistpard; as it is similar to Roariolu, but I am fine if it is banned for being irritating.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I completed the battle reqs and figure I should post. I'm not a good poster, so don't bite my head off.

I believe the issue being debated here is basically the Assist strategy as seen here, and not the slightly uncompetitive Swagger set. The problem with this strategy, and the reason why I feel this strategy is not an issue, is that it requires you to literally make an entire team around it. One can prepare for this strategy by using, for example, Liepard with Taunt or a Magic Coat user. When you prepare for Assist, your opponents team becomes useless.

PS: I have neither faced someone using the Assist strategy nor used it myself.

This has been stated before: those counters to Liepard cannot be thrown onto any team, and Liepard can play around its counters with the right prediction eg. Substitute or Nasty Plot as they Magic Coat. You can prepare for Assist, but this really limits teambuilding as you're now forced to use things you normally wouldn't such as Suction Cups Cradily, and even if you do, one wrong prediction in battle could still lead to your doom

Edit: smh got ninja'd by some loser

 

[The Immortal]

You can't Taunt Liepard before it uses Assist because of Prankster. Also, the liepard user can simply use Nasty Plot once Magic Coat is revealed.

I said Liepard with Taunt, so you speed-tie. About the latter point, a Magic Coat user that threatens Liepard.

 

[Blast]

Anyway, I shall refer to the FLCL team posted above for argument's sake. The team has no hazard setters at all. It relies on Ditto to set up.

So don't bring in your hazard setter at all! If it gets forced it, switch it out!

I know the above was theorymon, but I find no (logical) reason for the banning of Assistpard; as it is similar to Roariolu, but I am fine if it is banned for being irritating.

If you just switch out your hazard setter every time, you run the risk of your opponent predicting that and setting up a Sub or a NP. Also, the difference between Assistpard and Riolu is how many priority users can outspeed Riolu: Samurott and Zangoose come to mind. With Liepard, since it's so fast you're often hard-pressed to find priority faster than it (aside from Kanga who's not gonna fit on every single team).

 

[Metal Sonic]

Yep. That's a point for Assistpard, which makes it oh-so-fucking-annoying.

Sub/NP is the least of your worries lol. If your team isn't ready to deal with a measly 88 SpA "Dark Pulse" you're doing something wrong.

The thing is, without hazards, that team is effectively doing nothing. I do know that it is more potent in NU due to the lack of spinners, but the team itself is a playstyle. The whole team revolves around it. That is the difference.

With a brokenmon(say, Genesect), it can function on its own and crap on teams. Assistpard requires your whole team to be of that gimmick. That is its fatal flaw.

 

[Kingler]

Yep. That's a point for Assistpard, which makes it oh-so-fucking-annoying.

Sub/NP is the least of your worries lol. If your team isn't ready to deal with a measly 88 SpA "Dark Pulse" you're doing something wrong.

The thing is, without hazards, that team is effectively doing nothing. I do know that it is more potent in NU due to the lack of spinners, but the team itself is a playstyle. The whole team revolves around it. That is the difference.

With a brokenmon(say, Genesect), it can function on its own and crap on teams. Assistpard requires your whole team to be of that gimmick. That is its fatal flaw.

That doesn't make it not banworthy in the least. As has been stated, there's a difference between broken and uncompetitive. Broken mons don't require much support and are too good for the tier. Uncompetitive mons are banned from a wider perspective, usually all tiers, but the RU and NU specific ban in SmashPass shows that Assist+Copycat is bannable only in NU.

 

[WhiteDMist]

That goes with about any other team. You aren't necessarily making a point against Assistpard.

___

Anyway, I shall refer to the FLCL team posted above for argument's sake. The team has no hazard setters at all. It relies on Ditto to set up.

So don't bring in your hazard setter at all! If it gets forced it, switch it out!

I know the above was theorymon, but I find no (logical) reason for the banning of Assistpard; as it is similar to Roariolu, but I am fine if it is banned for being irritating.

That doesn't normally work unless you carry something that can immediately scare out Ditto, as it will simply have copied your SR user and set up otherwise. The problem is that Liepard is naturally faster than ANY Stealth Rock user, so it switches out before they do, so Ditto does end up Transforming into them. The main strategies against this are to have a Pokemon that can OHKO your own SR setter (MB Sawk, offensive Toad, etc.) or else a SR setter that can also Rapid Spin. The first strategy looks very legitimate, if a bit limiting on what Stealth Rock setters you can use and the fact that you have to carry the right teammate to outspeed a +1 Speed copy of it and OHKO. Rapid Spinning Stealth Rock users are not that great, and against most other teams they end up having to do too much and failing. It is a strategy I suppose.

I said Liepard with Taunt, so you speed-tie. About the latter point, a Magic Coat user that threatens Liepard.

Hmm interesting idea. Can you list the Magic Coat users that can threaten Liepard without being threatened back by Dark Pulse? Maybe I'm blind but Bastiodon is the only one I can think of, and it is generally only fit for Stall teams due to the waste of offensive momentum otherwise. Probopass could work too, if you are willing to give up your status move, and are careful to always switch out.

Dat Blast explain one of the difference between AssistPard and Riolu teams. Another is that Riolu must spend a turn using Roar before it can Copycat, so it does risk being hit with a Toxic. AssistCat simply uses Whirlwind from turn 1 and prevents the opponent from doing anything at all.

I think that one of the biggest problems with AssistPard isn't just that fact that it limits teambuilding by forcing you to carry a few Pokemon designed to counter the strategy, but the fact that is makes what would normally be invaluable Pokemon (Alomomola, Pivot/CM +BP or HB Musharna, Stealth Rock setters) and turn them into liabilities. Sure, you can argue that all teams do that to some extent depending on team match-up. AssistPard does force it to be a matter of team-match up only though. Some teams carry dedicated counters, and many carry Kangaskhan, Swellow, or Sawk+SR setter and thus have a chance to work around that strategy (though the AssistCat user can work around that as well since most of time, the counter strategies are very obvious) Sure the weakness of the team is that outside of Liepard, it relies on a whole team filled with mostly unhelpful moves. I agree that calling Liepard, or even just this particular set "broken" is too much of a stretch when a whole team is devoted to making it work. But I have to agree that it is uncompetitive because the only skill truly needed to use AssistCat is the ability to play around an opposing team's obvious counterstrategy, and after neutering the strategy it takes very little skill to win (unless the user gets greedy or makes a bad move). On the flip side, the opponent has to be absolutely perfect with their counter moves, and a single misstep usually loses them the game unless they have multiple counter strategies (in which case that is its own problem, that people would devote multiple methods to try and stop a single strategy), whereas in normal battles a single misstep is not as threatening because there is almost always a chance to bounce back.

While I don't know what I am specifically backing yet, I do not feel that Liepard itself is the problem (it is hardly broken, and only this particular strategy can truly be considered uncompetitive). The strategy of AssistCat is, so the options of Ban Assist + Whirlwind/Roar and Assist+Prankster are the most appealing right now.

 

[RotomPoison]

Just going to put in my opinion on Assist Liepard quick then go get reqs.


Assist: Assist Liepard relies on the opponent's lack of faster priority. Lagging Tail effectively makes it so the only way to be "outslowed" is another Pokemon running a Lagging Tail as well, which will not happen 99.99% of the time. Priority is common, but there isn't much priority that can OHKO Liepard unless it's something like Mach Punch, which is not too common in NU. Assost Liepard teams are counterable but not something very good team can be prepared for seeing as Liepard can also stall out low PP moves with switching and good luck, therefore there are very few 100% counters. If Liepard and Purrloin on these teams are beaten then the game is over so the opponent basically has only 2 usable Pokemon, therefore the strategy is limiting to both sides. While annoying, not completely broken, especially since there is no way to hide your strategy.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Torkoal, armaldo and sandshrew are good spin/rockers.

That they are not, they simply can do so. Defensive Armaldo is undisputedly inefficient because you are trying to set up Stealth Rock AND keep them off your field at least once at the same time (without having a way to handle Misdreavus I might add), and rarely has time to do both due to the abundance of Rock and Water-types that scare it out (forcing it to take the hazard damage in order to get off a spin). Torkoal is better as it can at least Lava Plume Misdreavus. That has nothing to do with their effectiveness against AssistCat, just the fact that they aren't that good against OTHER teams. Sandshrew is a gimmick. Baltoy is worse.

Just going to put in my opinion on Assist Liepard quick then go get reqs.


Assist: Assist Liepard relies on the opponent's lack of faster priority. Lagging Tail effectively makes it so the only way to be "outslowed" is another Pokemon running a Lagging Tail as well, which will not happen 99.99% of the time. Priority is common, but there isn't much priority that can OHKO Liepard unless it's something like Mach Punch, which is not too common in NU. Assost Liepard teams are counterable but not something very good team can be prepared for seeing as Liepard can also stall out low PP moves with switching and good luck, therefore there are very few 100% counters. If Liepard and Purrloin on these teams are beaten then the game is over so the opponent basically has only 2 usable Pokemon, therefore the strategy is limiting to both sides. While annoying, not completely broken, especially since there is no way to hide your strategy.

Where did Lagging Tail come from? Unless I am mistaken it makes the user go last in their priority bracket; that would make Liepard move AFTER other Liepard if both are using a Prankster-affected move, so it completely ruins Liepard. There are no Mach Punch users in NU that are faster than Liepard, and very few priority users in general that can outprioritize Liepard's Whirlwind. Fake Out and ExtremeSpeed outprioritize it due to their higher priority bracket, while Swellow, Floatzel, and Sneasel are the only Pokemon that naturally outspeed Liepard that have +1 priority. I guess Scarf Pokemon with priority can too, but I have my doubts of their overall usefulness.