Resource LC Viability Rankings

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Fiend

someguy
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I think Rufflet definitely deserves better than D. Hustle gives it incredible power, and with its STABs and Superpower it has perfect neutral coverage bar Honedge. It's a great Scarf mon, but can also sweep with Tailwind or Bulk Up. B Rank.
The problem is, Aerial Ace is the only reliable attack you get, Rufflet is choiced locked pretty much 95% of the time unless it is running a Bulk Up set which is entirely gimmicky imo or Life Orbed which is fine, but leads to losing to anything of a higher speed tier such as FastFoo running hjk or Stone Edge. I do see some usage over Doduo/Taillow/Fletchling being decent, but generally I would like the priority Acro, the sheer power of Doduo and its Knock Off utility, or Taillow's natural Speed and still great power combination. I do however see mid C or more likely C- being reasonable as Rufflet hits less hard than Daru but has a 100% accurate attack and is faster than Daru but with worse coverage and overall has much less of a niche than Daru.

Something else that 2HKOes literally everything, has more speed, and prio is Rattata. But it isn't ranked due to having little to no reason to run Rattata over Bunnelby or Aipom or maybe Eevee. Ultimately, this is at least half way true for Rufflet as well, though with other Birds instead of normal types.

Krabby: Unranked to B-/C+. Awesome Attack and access to Swords Dance and Agility make it a fearsome sweeper, and it's also a good Scarf mon. Just keep it away from Special attacks.
Krabby actually doesn't hit hard enough to sweep until late game and after heavy support, but 9/10 times DD Corphish, Tirtouga, Omanyte, or even just Carvanha could have come in and swept already. I do believe it is ranked for its Scarfed set though, and the small niche of not being weak to Mach Punch making for some easier sweeps if you fail to remove Timburr.

Honedge: C+ to C-/D. Swords Dance set is too slow; Autotomize is too weak. Terrible special bulk and no reliable recovery. Just too niche IMO.
How is this largely different than what you've been suggesting? SD sets can break PorySprit and can break Ferrosprit after Ferro has been weakened just a tad and then not be have to lose to Pawn afterwards if you are a BJ set. All ghosts struggle to revenge, it cannot be Trapped by Diglett, and it has flexibility in running pursuit to remove Gothita. Sword's typing also creates a very anti meta pokemon which overall gives it viable niches and a plethora of options to run. Honedge is fine where it is, and in fact I'm partial to a raise to B- after almost straight up losing to it so many times.
 
Not really commenting on your analysis of placement or anything, but just wanted to say I've found LO specially-oriented Tailow to be superior to Specs as you can still shift moves and a LO Brave Bird still allows Tailow to hit the stuff that Flying-types are supposed to. Choice Specs were originally hyped cuz "ooh big domage" but outside of them being a sweet pair of shades, I'm pretty sure there's no merit to running Specs over LO.
There is a slight difference in power, but Specs verse LO is an argument that will never end because there is not enough difference between the two. I have had more success with Specs Taillow that's all.
 
200 SpA Life Orb Taillow Boomburst vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 12-16 (44.4 - 59.2%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
200 SpA Choice Specs Taillow Boomburst vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 13-16 (48.1 - 59.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

After some more testing, I retract my statement about Honedge moving down. The Swords Dance set was good against stall (I ran SD/Shadow Claw/Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak), although faster offensive teams do give it more trouble. Much higher Attack and a more powerful STAB mean Krabby can hit hard without boosting unlike Honedge, and I'd agree that Corphish is superior in most respects. However, I still think Krabby should be ranked - it's certainly better than shit like Azurill and Grimer.

Another Pokémon I've had good results with is Frillish. It can beat almost all the Rapid Spinners in LC, and unlike Slowpoke it has decent Special Attack and STAB Hex (with Scald and Will-O-Wisp getting enemies statused isn't difficult) so it's not as passive. Unlike Chinchou it has reliable recovery, and Cursed Body could cripple a potential counter by depriving them of their strongest move. It can also run an offensive Choice Scarf set with Water Spout - Trick, better bulk and immunities give it a niche over Remoraid. I'm not saying it should move up at the moment, but what are people's thoughts?
 

Merritt

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After some more testing, I retract my statement about Honedge moving down. The Swords Dance set was good against stall (I ran SD/Shadow Claw/Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak), although faster offensive teams do give it more trouble. Much higher Attack and a more powerful STAB mean Krabby can hit hard without boosting unlike Honedge, and I'd agree that Corphish is superior in most respects. However, I still think Krabby should be ranked - it's certainly better than shit like Azurill and Grimer.

Another Pokémon I've had good results with is Frillish. It can beat almost all the Rapid Spinners in LC, and unlike Slowpoke it has decent Special Attack and STAB Hex (with Scald and Will-O-Wisp getting enemies statused isn't difficult) so it's not as passive. Unlike Chinchou it has reliable recovery, and Cursed Body could cripple a potential counter by depriving them of their strongest move. It can also run an offensive Choice Scarf set with Water Spout - Trick, better bulk and immunities give it a niche over Remoraid. I'm not saying it should move up at the moment, but what are people's thoughts?
Hey, Grimer is a viable Sticky Hold user not named Trubbish! It's also cute af, has priority, and good physical defense and attack. It's not spectacular, but it has a niche where it's not entirely outclassed. It does entirely outclass Gulpin however. The same cannot be said for Krabby, who is legitimately outclassed by Corphish, and therefore not viable. Azurill sucks though, unrank it please, I'll keep copy/pasting my arguments Knock Off isn't enough to keep it kill it dead unrank it.

Frillish isn't a used as a spinblocker only because Pumpkaboo-Super does it so damn well. Honestly I could possibly see it moving up to B-, but it'd be a borderline case. Cursed Body isn't as good as Water Absorb however– it's inconsistent and an immunity is very helpful. Scarf sets, while possible, are kind of a waste of Frillish's movepool since you lose recover and will-o-wisp which are incredibly huge.
 

apt-get

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j/s aerial ace OHKOes timburr with LO jolly so it's definitely not weak

superpower ohkoes porygon / lileep / non-evio archen (all WITHOUT sr). it's p much one of the best if not the best sweb powerhouse

apart from that yeah rufflet works really well under webs with a sub or u-turn set. give it c+ or b-
 
I can see people calling me ''original'' for this one however and i don't blame you:
Move togepi up to C-
The reason behind this:
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nasty Plot
- Soft-Boiled/Wish
- Baton Pass
Rely able Recovery OR passable recovery (what honestly isn't too amazing but it has use aswell), +2 sp attack set up and baton pass what can be used as very slow momentum aswell+ having good bulk and having an amazing type.
Now allot of people see togepi as a poor spritzee clone, what it is if you use the poor cleric set on it, but this is Nasty-Pass:
Nasty pass with a bulky special attacker like porygon, gothita, skrelp who can all be used as some what of a synergist core.
All of the 3 above named pokes are good, viable and 1 of them can trap, the other can abuse the oponants ability OR download to get another boost and skrelp can demolish even if it's resisted.
The only reasons it should move up is because it actualy sees viable use especialy in the current meta and having a notable enough niche.
Slow momentum is usefull very usefull infact, nastyplot now(this is asuming you discount the missy ara) has a good amout of viable pokes to pass into.
Add some t-spike from skrelp or just combo it up with gothita to revenge OR just combo it with porygon and wall+ demolish ^_^

Yes i know you are basicaly building a team around 1 pokes use, and 1 poke to abuse that. However D-rank stands for having a highly unnotable or basicaly NO niche. C- however means you need allot like allot of building but it's niche can still be utilized. I think this poke suits that roll by decription, and in the current meta also in work!
 
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I can see people calling me ''original'' for this one however and i don't blame you:
Move togepi up to C-
The reason behind this:
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nasty Plot
- Soft-Boiled/Wish
- Baton Pass
Rely able Recovery OR passable recovery (what honestly isn't too amazing but it has use aswell), +2 sp attack set up and baton pass what can be used as very slow momentum aswell+ having good bulk and having an amazing type.
Now allot of people see togepi as a poor spritzee clone, what it is if you use the poor cleric set on it, but this is Nasty-Pass:
Nasty pass with a bulky special attacker like porygon, gothita, skrelp who can all be used as some what of a synergist core.
All of the 3 above named pokes are good, viable and 1 of them can trap, the other can abuse the oponants ability OR download to get another boost and skrelp can demolish even if it's resisted.
The only reasons it should move up is because it actualy sees viable use especialy in the current meta and having a notable enough niche.
Slow momentum is usefull very usefull infact, nastyplot now(this is asuming you discount the missy ara) has a good amout of viable pokes to pass into.
Add some t-spike from skrelp or just combo it up with gothita to revenge OR just combo it with porygon and wall+ demolish ^_^

Yes i know you are basicaly building a team around 1 pokes use, and 1 poke to abuse that. However D-rank stands for having a highly unnotable or basicaly NO niche. C- however means you need allot like allot of building but it's niche can still be utilized. I think this poke suits that roll by decription, and in the current meta also in work!
No thats been a known niche for a while, it also has a nice defensive set
 

Rowan

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togepi is definitely worth C-.

magby should move down to C. it doesn't wallbreak as well as other fire types, and its belly drum set is difficult to sweep with. it's not bad, but it's just not on par with any other c+ mon.

i'm moving totodile to D, and removing wooper. putting litleo back in D (for now) before anyone says, yes i know it hasn't got a sprite yet

i'll move rufflett up to C-, but i don't see how it's getting any higher, when it's still basically outclassed by doduo
 

apt-get

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togepi is definitely worth C-.

magby should move down to C. it doesn't wallbreak as well as other fire types, and its belly drum set is difficult to sweep with. it's not bad, but it's just not on par with any other c+ mon.

i'm moving totodile to D, and removing wooper. putting litleo back in D (for now) before anyone says, yes i know it hasn't got a sprite yet

i'll move rufflett up to C-, but i don't see how it's getting any higher, when it's still basically outclassed by doduo
being able to OHKO porygon, lileep, and pawniard under webs is something doduo doesn't have, especially when porygon can threaten you quickly with download-boosted tri attack / psychic or thunder wave
 

doomsday doink

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Nominating Feebas for D rank. It hits 18 Speed and has Adaptability, allowing it to hit everything relatively hard. It also gets Hypnosis, which in tandem with its rather high Speed, makes it already somewhat viable. It's bulk isn't that awful, sporting 55 SpD which allows it to capitalize on incoming Scalds, Ice Beams, Hidden Power Fires, etc. It may not be a top tier Pokemon, but it has its merits and I think it should be placed in D rank. And so does Omfuga.

Quotes from the LC king, Omfuga, supporting this nomination

"Yeah Feebas is a fuckin savage. Base 1 million Speed plus Adaptability plus Hypnosis PLUS the ability to run physical or special makes this thing a savage."

"You can hit like a don with Choice Band"

"252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Feebas Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 10-14 (38.4 - 53.8%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO"

"Or you can use your fantastic special movepool to crush physical walls"

"252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Feebas Surf vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon: 10-14 (38.4 - 53.8%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO"

"Base 80 speed in LC makes this thing a monster"

"Why does Assurill get a fucking rank but Feebas doesn't, what does it even do"

"Catch me at LC open"

Replays (provided by Omfuga)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-255885595
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-255883035
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-255884071
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-255884616
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-255885141

This message has been brought to you by Omfuga

EDIT: Also thinking Tirtouga should drop down a rank (to B+), mainly due to its ineffectiveness in the current meta. Not that great of a Smasher and the defensive set just struggles to get the job done most of the time imo.
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Nominating Torchic for B+
Torchic, I feel, is very underrated and powerful in the current meta. Torchic is mostly known for it's Speed Boost and Curse/SD passing shenanigans, and that's pretty good, as he has pretty nice bulk with Eviolite. But what I feel is the set that makes it B+ is the offensive LO set. This set makes use of Torchic's good 70 special attack and high powered moves like Fire Blast coupled with LO and Speed Boost to potentially become a wrecking ball and sweep late game. While this means that Torchic doesn't take hits very well, it still has nice resistances to types like Fairy and Grass so it can switch in on some stuff. It can use Protect to get a safe Speed Boost off, or it can Baton Pass out of a bad situation and pass Speed to his teammate, so the teammate can also wreck house. Torchic can also go mixed to use coverage like Low Kick and Rock Slide. Torchic has a few problems keeping it from the A rank, though. First of all, as I've already stated, without an Eviolite his bulk is subpar, and he struggles to break some special walls and faces competition from other Fire types like Houndour and Ponyta, but due to Speed Boost, he can differatiate himself from them. He also has a nasty SR weakness, which coupled with the Life Orb, can wear him down easily. But Torchic still has a lot of good points, with his Speed Boosts and his power, that imo makes him deserve a rise to B+.
 

Shrug

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Things that should occur:

Archen to A-rank. I've found Archen not as effective as a mon as its fellow denizens of A+. It is subject to irksome speed ties with other 17 speed mons, which are often imbued with more import for the Archen user due to the flying fossil's relative lack of resiliency. Mienfoo can easily accept - and often chooses - to take a hit bringing it down to a low percentage of HP in order to attack with Drain / HJK / Stone Edge or disrupt with Knock Off / U-Turn, enabled by Regenerator and a resistance to Rocks. In contrast, Archen is Rocks-weak and saddled with a crippling ability, meaning it cannot come in frequently for fear of going into Defeatist range. While Berry Juice alleviates the fear of dropping below 50% a little bit, the very act of carrying BJ means you cant fire off strong Acrobatics until you've used it up... which means you cannot come in any longer without a strong chance of halving your own Attack upon Defeatist activating. Calcs are worthless w/o context, but this one is alarming:

196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Archen: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 3HKO
(7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)

That means if you're running the "fast support" Archen set w/ 13 Def and Rocks are up on your side of the field, you can only come in once on Fletch without Defeatist activating and crippling you, as 25% + 30% sends you to BJ the first time, then the same a second time puts you permanently below 50%. You can run the fast Evio set w/ Roost, which I tend to favor, but so lose Acrobatics, a major selling point. Also, the need to Roost frequently means pressure-applying mons such as Scarfchou and Scarfmag can get free switches in. I understand the strengths of Archen - the strong STABs, the generally solid Fletch-checking, the utility with Rocks / Defog / U-turn / Knock Off. These are what makes it an A-rank mon. But the trickiness of using it - making sure Juice is gone to use Acro, taking fastidious care to not allow it below 50% HP lest it lose the bulk of its usefulness - prevent it from being A+ in my estimation. The best comparison I have is Larvesta. Both have similar strengths: they check common, powerful threats, Larvesta Fighting-types and Pawniard, Archen Fletchling; they both are fast, strong pokemon with good STABs; they both have good utility and reliable recovery if they choose to use it. Both are marred by similar flaws: the need for frequent tending and gymnastics to ensure Rocks are not on the field; the susceptibility to trappers. I feel Archen is a touch better and thus deserves a higher rank, but the same flaws that keep Larvesta in A- should also push Archen down to A-rank.

Mambo said:
Also thinking Tirtouga should drop down a rank (to B+), mainly due to its ineffectiveness in the current meta. Not that great of a Smasher and the defensive set just struggles to get the job done most of the time imo.
Supporting this. Tirtouga isnt particularly good this meta. Defensive set is vulnerable, the smash set weak - not as good as other A- mons.
 
Agreeing that archen/tirt should move down/

Also can we move zorua up? It's got really good 65/80/65 offensive stats, one of the strongest knock offs in the tier, U-turn, Mamento, illusion to bring it in as something like zig and cripple its checks,and strong prio. hazards make its life harder with how illusion works and it doesnt have much coverage outside of dark-type attacks so it shouldn't go higher than like mid C but it's a really cool mon regardless
 

Berks

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Agreeing that archen/tirt should move down/

Also can we move zorua up? It's got really good 65/80/65 offensive stats, one of the strongest knock offs in the tier, U-turn, Mamento, illusion to bring it in as something like zig and cripple its checks,and strong prio. hazards make its life harder with how illusion works and it doesnt have much coverage outside of dark-type attacks so it shouldn't go higher than like mid C but it's a really cool mon regardless
I agree with all of this, particularly Zorua, as it has the same functioning Speed and offenses as Houndour, just sans coverage
 
Agreeing that archen/tirt should move down/

Also can we move zorua up? It's got really good 65/80/65 offensive stats, one of the strongest knock offs in the tier, U-turn, Mamento, illusion to bring it in as something like zig and cripple its checks,and strong prio. hazards make its life harder with how illusion works and it doesnt have much coverage outside of dark-type attacks so it shouldn't go higher than like mid C but it's a really cool mon regardless
I agree with all of this as well, Archen has been prepared for and has lost some of its effectiveness, Tirts smash set is weaker then other smashers, while its defensive set is done slightly better by some other leads/rockers/and defensive rock types (like Archen), and Zorua is a surprisingly hard hitter, and has a lot of ways to support sweepers, like memento and U-turn.

Finally, I am wanting a raise on Amaura, but I wil post that later as I am gathering replays.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I agree with Archen to A rank, it may still be good but it's hampered by Stealth Rock and Defeastist, it's also sometimes too frail to take on some mons like boosted Fletchling.

Tirt can drop, it's a pretty meh Smasher and it's defensive set is hard to pull off, it's just a bit ineffective at the moment imo.

I also agree with the Zorua nom, while it can't keep up it's Illusion schtick forever, it can do some work and has some neat moves like Memento or U-Turn to help make teammates like Zigzagoon sweep easier.

Also, can we get some discussion on my Torchic nomination above?
 
Tirt can drop, it's a pretty meh Smasher and it's defensive set is hard to pull off, it's just a bit ineffective at the moment imo.
This is a subject i would like to talk about tho: defencive tirtouga is actualy better then the juice imo, In the current meta we have: fletchling, mienfoo's ,timburr and pawniards everywhere.
Any of these 3 pokes can knock off your berry juice. Or lose sturdy after being hit by hit a U-turn from fletch a poke you are seposed to deal with.
However the poke's actualy has a proper answere to diglett aswell namely AJ what KO's 100% of the times, so it shines even with the sturdy set above most sturdy juicers.(it can be trapped by gothita but after 1 shell smash you deal with it aswell, what isn't that amazing point cause not that rediculessly mutch deals with a +2 tirtouga)
Solid Rock-shell smash however: Is harder to deal with in the current meta, mainly because of the solidrock ability/high defencive uses i would concider using it.
Infact the poke is easier to set up then omanyte, on cost of being less efficient in sweeping ,true,But that doesn't make it bad.
Allot of sturdy juicers have a problem to propperly lead in the current meta without being easly trapped by diglett after U-turn damage.
Not to confuse with defencive tirtouga tho, defencive tirtouga i have to agree with you isn't a good set even with the possitives i just named about the high bulk it's still rater useless because you can't do mutch back and infact can get trapped by a diglett/highly damaged.
Looking at what B+ represents: ''Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.''
I wouldn't say tirtouga fits that description. The poke is easier to support then omanyte/shellder, so saying it's bad just because it's hard to pull off isn't rellevant when any other poke has the exact same problem right now.
 

eren

je suis d'ailleurs
Ok, just gonna make a quick post.

Why is Scraggy lower than Pancham?

Pancham, overall, is just overshadowed by SD Mienfoo, which has risen in usage. Furthermore, Pancham doesnt even get STAB on Knock Off (unlike Scraggy) and is much slower than Foo.

Scraggy, on the other hand, has a much better niche than Parting shot in DD. It has STAB Knock Off, HJK OHKOes Mienfoo at +2, can still run Poison/Steel coverage or DPunch for recovery still. Also, Scraggy has three very useful abilities. Shed Skin helps vs Status, Moxie to gain tons of Atk, Intimidate for easier set up.

Overall, Drop pancham to B, raise Scraggy to B+.
 
Ok, just gonna make a quick post.

Why is Scraggy lower than Pancham?

Pancham, overall, is just overshadowed by SD Mienfoo, which has risen in usage. Furthermore, Pancham doesnt even get STAB on Knock Off (unlike Scraggy) and is much slower than Foo.

Scraggy, on the other hand, has a much better niche than Parting shot in DD. It has STAB Knock Off, HJK OHKOes Mienfoo at +2, can still run Poison/Steel coverage or DPunch for recovery still. Also, Scraggy has three very useful abilities. Shed Skin helps vs Status, Moxie to gain tons of Atk, Intimidate for easier set up.

Overall, Drop pancham to B, raise Scraggy to B+.
Panchamp's use isn't just to sweep like scraggy, it's use is to pivot, what if you noticed is it's best use in LC ESPECIALY knowing the fact it's pivot set is amazing in current meta, having lowerd special/Physical attack on the opponant and not making contact to flamebody making it a unique/more versatile answere then just being outclassed by the U-turning mienfoo, also having lower speed actualy is usefull knowing it's slower then most pivot's/ still faster then very slow bulky things like spritzee, snubble, skrelp (and timburr) who all are problems for the poke to deal with.

It's ability is amazing in that it can break sturdy pokes, and not have to pivot with U-turn to achieve this.

As for rising scraggy Look up things: on page 85 there is a full discusion about how scraggy still failes to work even with it's bets uses/set's.
Panchamp on the other hand has a striking niche for the current metagame, what scraggy is lacking.
STAB Knock off isn't too mutch of an amazing thing if it adds weaknesses to a mon that needs to set up on things making it allot easier to deal with.

Look up some set-viability's aswell, they explain why scraggy's best set's still lacks and why panchamp's best set is actualy ranked A-. As i said it's pivot, which you literaly said is insuperior to DD's as a niche even though they're uncompairable and in this case even is the opposit of right.
 

Corporal Levi

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drifloon -> a-
tirtouga -> b+
archen -> a
zorua -> c-
Feel free to post if you disagree with any of these changes.

Anyways, I haven't done much for this thread in the past two months and I'm going to be busier from now on, so I won't be running the rankings anymore. Would anybody like to volunteer to take over?
 

Celestavian

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Me!

Also I'd like to object to the change of Tirtouga to B+ as even though the meta has kinda swung out of its favor, it still has a ton of power and is at least on par with Shellder. It's got Sturdy and huge physical bulk to set up with, and being unable to be OHKOed at full HP is not to be taken lightly. Dwebble can do the same but I'm not really sold on how great that is, and it also lacks priority which is another big part of Tirtouga's success, being the only Shell Smasher in LC to be able to avoid Sucker Punch. Don't get me wrong, I haven't been swept by or had problems with Tirtouga in a good while, but it can still hurt and if we aren't going to keep it A-, I'd suggest moving Shellder down with it since it is surely not better than Tirtouga.

For a move-down that I do support, how about Ponyta? I have not seen this Pokemon in a long time, and I wasn't even sold on it being A+ when it was first put there. The rise of trapping being everywhere has put a huge dent in Pony's viability, and while it's still annoying with Flame Body and has pretty great bulk, Attack, and recovery, it just seems a lot less effective than it used to be.
 
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