-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
OU Landorus
- Thread starter Halcyon.
- Start date
You achieve a 2HKO with Psychic on both Landorus and Gliscor, so it's not as necessary. It's much more important to hit Mega Venusaur, AV Conk, etc., especially since HP Ice doesn't ignore LO recoil and doesn't get a Sheer Force boost since it doesn't have a secondary effect. I plan on mentioning it in the moves section, but it won't be getting a slash on the set.
ye hp ice is terrible
as cbb and jukain outlined, the main move of the all out set should be earth powrr/psychic/sludge wave, and honeslty then sr forcus blast and uturn. rock slide is p terrible. for the all out attacker set, i honestly wouldnt even mention the bulkier spread, as outspeeding thr 100 benchmark is more important in this set than any other. hp ice shouldnt get mentioned, it is a joke now. rp does play completely differently from cm and imo doesnt deserve a main set at all. it doesnt achievr muvh the other sets cant do themselves already, and is really mefiocre in this meta full of priority etc. after those changes this should be good to go
as cbb and jukain outlined, the main move of the all out set should be earth powrr/psychic/sludge wave, and honeslty then sr forcus blast and uturn. rock slide is p terrible. for the all out attacker set, i honestly wouldnt even mention the bulkier spread, as outspeeding thr 100 benchmark is more important in this set than any other. hp ice shouldnt get mentioned, it is a joke now. rp does play completely differently from cm and imo doesnt deserve a main set at all. it doesnt achievr muvh the other sets cant do themselves already, and is really mefiocre in this meta full of priority etc. after those changes this should be good to go
While HP Ice may have been nerfed, it's still got a nice effective 240 BP against Landorus, Gliscor, and Dragonite. In some cases (albeit rare), this can be the difference between life and death.
dcae you must have misunderstood me; while I don't think Focus Blast is necessary it is the best option in slot 3 for sure. There's also a few things you and Jukain said which I don't agree with at all.
On the other hand, let's look at what Sludge Wave does: 2HKOs Lati@s (I don't know why this is important considering that you can't outspeed them and considering that Bisharp is definitely one of your best partners and ~guarantees the kill on both of them with Pursuit), "kills" Clefable (it's beyond me why you'd ever want to kill boosted Clefable with Landorus seeing how Earth Power easily mops the floor with physically defensive Clefable anyway. Both Sludge Wave and Earth Power 2HKO unboosted Clef and Earth Power even 2HKOs most Clefable with a hit at +0 combined with a hit at +1 not to mention that there are better ways to kill Clefable anyway), kills Togekiss (lol), does 2% more to Charizard Y (still far from a guaranteed kill after SR). The only "notable" thing it does is OHKOing Non-Assault Vest Azumarill which is pretty big for most offensive teams since you easily survive the Aqua Jet and Azumarill causes headaches for those kind of teams often. You also do around 2% more to targets that are immune/resistant to Earth Power and neutral to both Psychic and Sludge Wave while hitting the incredibly uncommon Celebi and Tangrowth for massive damage... yeah that's about it.
Rock Slide is also not as bad as you make it out to be. In addition to Zard Y (OHKOing it is pretty big since most people will stay in expecting to tank a Psychic/Sludge Wave/whatever) and Talonflame (not sure why this is relevant but whatever) you 2HKO Specially Defensive Zapdos (who can just switch into you and Defog for free without Rock Slide; even Sludge Wave barely dents SDef Zapdos), Specially Defensive Mandibuzz (which completely walls you without Rock Slide and can also Defog, even taking less than 45% from Focus Blast) and does a respectable amount to Gyarados (exactly the same as Sludge Wave, actually, and thats with a -Attack nature). There's probably a few more situations I can't think of/can't be bothered to think of, but I think that's enough for now anyway. Rock Slide is situational, but those situations are probably a lot more common/important than the ones where U-turn actually helps you out.
I agree that Modest should be removed from the first set. You can seperate CM and RP, I just gave you an option of what to do if you want to keep it as a single "boosting sweeper" but I guess seperating them does make sense, especially since they play really differently. While Rock Polish isn't the best set, it's certainly usable and very powerful against offensive teams since it's immune to Thunder Wave from Thundurus and faster than every Choice Scarf user. I think it still deserves a set.
Gravity is horrible, most of the things switching into you are, once again, offensive switches (Thundurus, Keldeo and Garchomp come to mind again, and you have the whole dilemma of the current Pokemon staying in and putting a huge dent into you like with U-turn). It doesn't even help against Stall so I honestly don't see why you would ever want to use it ?_?.
Hidden Power Ice is also horrible; Dragonite has dropped in usage a lot in XY and Landorus-T and Gliscor aren't as common as they used to be. Landorus-T also rarely runs HP Ice nowadays so it's not like it can do anything notable (I guess it can Knock Off) back to cripple you. I'd even leave it out of OO because it's just that bad.
The current slashes and set orders are fine in my opinion. Seperating CM and RP is fine I guess, but theres no reason to change anything else really.
Sorry for the length of this post but I felt like I had to post my thoughts on this!!
and sorry for any grammatical/spelling errors i made this is kinda long so i guess it happens!!
Can you please not? I can't see how Sludge Wave's "utility" can even be compared to all the stuff Focus Blast does. Focus Blast might be horribly inaccurate but it is still a terrific coverage option for Landorus and is, in my opinion, superior to Sludge Wave in almost every way. Besides smashing Skarmory to bits Focus Blast also OHKOs Mega Tyranitar (way more important than you'd think considering that it only needs one Dragon Dance to beat many offensive teams), 2HKOs physically defensive Mandibuzz who just walls you with Sludge Wave, does way more than Earth Power to Ferrothorn (we're talking about an OHKO against physically defensive Ferrothorn which is getting a lot more common with the rise of threats such as Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar) and deals a solid 62% minimum to physically defensive Rotom-W. While Sludge Wave and Psychic both 2HKO with SR up, you can't really guarantee it in a metagame full of Defog and other stuff to keep it off the field (Excadrill, fast Taunt). Not to mention that most good or even average players won't just switch their Rotom-W into Psychic like that. Focus Blast also 2HKOs Chansey once it falls below 64% which, quite honestly, isn't very hard to do and OHKOs Air Balloon Excadrill/Heatran/whatever (mostly Excadrill).
On the other hand, let's look at what Sludge Wave does: 2HKOs Lati@s (I don't know why this is important considering that you can't outspeed them and considering that Bisharp is definitely one of your best partners and ~guarantees the kill on both of them with Pursuit), "kills" Clefable (it's beyond me why you'd ever want to kill boosted Clefable with Landorus seeing how Earth Power easily mops the floor with physically defensive Clefable anyway. Both Sludge Wave and Earth Power 2HKO unboosted Clef and Earth Power even 2HKOs most Clefable with a hit at +0 combined with a hit at +1 not to mention that there are better ways to kill Clefable anyway), kills Togekiss (lol), does 2% more to Charizard Y (still far from a guaranteed kill after SR). The only "notable" thing it does is OHKOing Non-Assault Vest Azumarill which is pretty big for most offensive teams since you easily survive the Aqua Jet and Azumarill causes headaches for those kind of teams often. You also do around 2% more to targets that are immune/resistant to Earth Power and neutral to both Psychic and Sludge Wave while hitting the incredibly uncommon Celebi and Tangrowth for massive damage... yeah that's about it.
There's many reasons as to why U-turn is a lot worse on XY Landorus than on BW Landorus. First of all, its premier "counter" in BW (before U-turn became a thing), Celebi, is nowhere to be seen. Neither is Cresselia. Which leaves Latios and Latias. While Latias was quite common in BW, Latios has mostly taken its place in XY because it can actually do damage. There are some occasional Latias, but they still aren't defensive enough to switch into Landorus frequently. With Defog available, Latios also has pretty much no room for Roost to be fit on. That basically means the only thing that can take Landorus' moves that is somewhat dented by U-turn is your standard Latios with no recovery. Secondly, Stall teams often have the best Landorus answer that exists (Chansey) which also takes negligible damage from U-turn while causing you to take Life Orb and maybe even more SR damage once you come back in. When using Landorus against Stall in XY you're better off making strategic Double Switches to conserve your HP for chip damage from Pokemon such as Clefable and Venusaur when you go for the kill against them instead of blowing them on unnecessary moves that don't actually do any lasting damage. This is even more true if you run Sludge Wave over Focus Blast and can't touch Skarmory at all. Offensive teams in XY also mostly deal with you through Offensive switching (that is, they don't have anything to take your moves safely so they're forced to switch Garchomp or Keldeo or even Thundurus into your Earth Power to force you out; worst case scenario, they try to sacrifice whatever is currently out while you U-turn into them and completely waste your turn and some of your health) since so few Pokemon actually want to switch into Landorus. Latios is the sole exception, but Latios is easier to remove than ever with the rise of Bisharp as a top OU Pokemon as well as the advent of Aegislash. Best case scenario, you U-turn into Latios and bring in something that beats it. Worst case scenario, you U-turn into their Garchomp for 15% while taking Life Orb, Rough Skin and Rocky Helmet damage while missing up on the opportunity to put a massive dent into Garchomp.
Rock Slide is also not as bad as you make it out to be. In addition to Zard Y (OHKOing it is pretty big since most people will stay in expecting to tank a Psychic/Sludge Wave/whatever) and Talonflame (not sure why this is relevant but whatever) you 2HKO Specially Defensive Zapdos (who can just switch into you and Defog for free without Rock Slide; even Sludge Wave barely dents SDef Zapdos), Specially Defensive Mandibuzz (which completely walls you without Rock Slide and can also Defog, even taking less than 45% from Focus Blast) and does a respectable amount to Gyarados (exactly the same as Sludge Wave, actually, and thats with a -Attack nature). There's probably a few more situations I can't think of/can't be bothered to think of, but I think that's enough for now anyway. Rock Slide is situational, but those situations are probably a lot more common/important than the ones where U-turn actually helps you out.
I agree that Modest should be removed from the first set. You can seperate CM and RP, I just gave you an option of what to do if you want to keep it as a single "boosting sweeper" but I guess seperating them does make sense, especially since they play really differently. While Rock Polish isn't the best set, it's certainly usable and very powerful against offensive teams since it's immune to Thunder Wave from Thundurus and faster than every Choice Scarf user. I think it still deserves a set.
Gravity is horrible, most of the things switching into you are, once again, offensive switches (Thundurus, Keldeo and Garchomp come to mind again, and you have the whole dilemma of the current Pokemon staying in and putting a huge dent into you like with U-turn). It doesn't even help against Stall so I honestly don't see why you would ever want to use it ?_?.
Hidden Power Ice is also horrible; Dragonite has dropped in usage a lot in XY and Landorus-T and Gliscor aren't as common as they used to be. Landorus-T also rarely runs HP Ice nowadays so it's not like it can do anything notable (I guess it can Knock Off) back to cripple you. I'd even leave it out of OO because it's just that bad.
The current slashes and set orders are fine in my opinion. Seperating CM and RP is fine I guess, but theres no reason to change anything else really.
Sorry for the length of this post but I felt like I had to post my thoughts on this!!
and sorry for any grammatical/spelling errors i made this is kinda long so i guess it happens!!
QC APPROVED 1/3
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Scarf set needs to have Sheer Froce and Rock Slide instead of Stone Edge and Sand Force. Sand Force is cool but how many teams are running dedicated sand? Basically none and even then Excadrill seems like a better choice. Sheer Force Rock Slide is about as strong as Stone Edge but doesnt miss as much.
If its supposed to be a dedicated sand set, and apparently it is it doesnt even seem that appealing. Its a lot less flexible than LO excadrill being slower, and weaker while not being able to switch moves, boost or spin. It has differnet defensive merits, Stone Edge, and U-turn I guess but it just seems worse in every way than either Scarf Lando-T as a revenge killer outside sand other than popping +1 Jolly Zard X, LO Excadrill as a sand team's revenge killer / cleaner, or Scarf Garchomp as a faster ground type scarfer who is stronger (outside sand) and can clean late game with outrage.
If its supposed to be a dedicated sand set, and apparently it is it doesnt even seem that appealing. Its a lot less flexible than LO excadrill being slower, and weaker while not being able to switch moves, boost or spin. It has differnet defensive merits, Stone Edge, and U-turn I guess but it just seems worse in every way than either Scarf Lando-T as a revenge killer outside sand other than popping +1 Jolly Zard X, LO Excadrill as a sand team's revenge killer / cleaner, or Scarf Garchomp as a faster ground type scarfer who is stronger (outside sand) and can clean late game with outrage.
Last edited:
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
Ok, so I've gone over Scarf Lando-I and I think I'd like to see it downgraded to Other OPtions.
1) It has little to no advantage over Lando-T outside the sand. The speed it has lets it past +1 Zard X (who lando can actually check at full health thanks to intimidate) and not much else of note while Lando-T's intimidate is incredibly useful to checking or switching into hysical attackers, and it has way more power. Some marginal advantages is that lack of intimidate lets you check Bisharp better and sheer force gives you a +10% more accurate Rock Slide. Becuase of these I dont think it should be advisable outside sand
2) It has only situational advantage over Excadrill on Sand Team. LO Excadrill in the sand is faster, stronger, can switch moves, can spin, has a useful secondary STAB and can boost. Lando-I is faster outside sand, has u-turn, and has Stone Edge. Their typing differences make them differnet meaning that potentially Lando-I might be a better team choice as Lando-I resists fighting and is immune to ground whereas Excadrill is weak to those. However, Excadrill is neutral to ice as opposed to 4x weak, and has a number of useful resistances such as Flying so Talonflame has a hard time checking it, and Steel so Scizor can not easily check it.
for this, please move scarf Lando to OO and detail that although it can be a good set, Lando-T in general is better outside sand teams, and Excadrill would in general be better inside sand teams as the sand abuser.
1) It has little to no advantage over Lando-T outside the sand. The speed it has lets it past +1 Zard X (who lando can actually check at full health thanks to intimidate) and not much else of note while Lando-T's intimidate is incredibly useful to checking or switching into hysical attackers, and it has way more power. Some marginal advantages is that lack of intimidate lets you check Bisharp better and sheer force gives you a +10% more accurate Rock Slide. Becuase of these I dont think it should be advisable outside sand
2) It has only situational advantage over Excadrill on Sand Team. LO Excadrill in the sand is faster, stronger, can switch moves, can spin, has a useful secondary STAB and can boost. Lando-I is faster outside sand, has u-turn, and has Stone Edge. Their typing differences make them differnet meaning that potentially Lando-I might be a better team choice as Lando-I resists fighting and is immune to ground whereas Excadrill is weak to those. However, Excadrill is neutral to ice as opposed to 4x weak, and has a number of useful resistances such as Flying so Talonflame has a hard time checking it, and Steel so Scizor can not easily check it.
for this, please move scarf Lando to OO and detail that although it can be a good set, Lando-T in general is better outside sand teams, and Excadrill would in general be better inside sand teams as the sand abuser.
Last edited:
Knock off needs more love in my opinion. Chansey is more often than not the best switch-in stall has to Landorus. Assuming some shit like Chansey / Skarmory / Venusaur / Quagsire / Heatran or Aegislash / Clefable or some other filler, Chansey isn't just the best switch-in, it's the only switch-in. It also turns Landorus into a decent Lati lure if you can't/don't want to fit Aegislash, Bisharp, or Tyranitar on your team. I know the all-out attacker has enough slashes for that last slot, but I feel Knock Off is at least equally viable/useful as Rock Slide or Sludge Wave, and I think it's definitely better than OO.
EDIT: Knock Off makes it such a cool Char-Y partner.
EDIT: Knock Off makes it such a cool Char-Y partner.
Wouldn't the item-removing effect of Knock Off be negated by Sheer Force?
No, that only applies to moves that are defined as having a certain % chance of a secondary effect, not guaranteed ones.
I brought up Knock Off on IRC and talked with Dice and CBB about it. Knock Off has merit and should be mentioned but it shouldn't be added to the main set. The reason for this is that it's really hard to fit on its All out attacker set. You have to drop good coverage in Sludge Wave/ Rock Slide and utility in Stealth Rock. It's more of a niche option and would probably be better in OO or in Set Details.
I'm failing to see how Knock Off is any more niche than Rock Slide or Sludge Wave. CBB's post above makes it pretty clear that Sludge Wave and Rock Slide aren't "good" coverage. Sludge Wave is very limited in what it accomplishes, while Rock Slide performs one general function of OHKOing Zard-Y while hitting Specially Defensive Zapdos and Mandibuzz harder. Knock Off ruins Chansey, the number one special wall and counter to Landorus in this metagame and any other special attacker, catches Latias/Latios switch-ins if need be, and is just useful to throw around when you're unsure of what move to select. As far as Specially Defensive Zapdos and Mandibuzz go, the lack of Leftovers after Knock Off actually makes it quite harder to switch-in and do their job of defogging, as they are coming into Stealth Rock if they plan on defogging it, and Leftovers is crucial in mitigating that damage.
That's a fair point, and I agree that Knock Off is a very viable option. I was just think that while you cripple Chansey (Chansey isn't the hardest thing to wear down to be honest, but I'll give you that Landorus is a fantastic lure and Knock Off + Focus Blast + Focus Blast 3HKOs so thats really really cool) and do massive damage to Latios and Latias, it isn't really "coverage" or "hitting threats" since Landorus shouldn't really be concerned about hitting Lati@s that much, although Chansey is a fair point since you can beat it without support now. I also forgot that Knock Off's item removing effects can be used to remove other siginificant items such as Leftovers from the Pokemon you outlined and probably a few other things from "offensive" switchins such as Specs from Keldeo.
With that said, you bring up a few good points so I'm actually really liking the idea of putting Knock Off on the main set. Putting it in the 4th slot over Rock Slide seems fine (and obviously moving RS to the general comments then), as it's probably a lot less niche or situational than Rock Slide.
With that said, you bring up a few good points so I'm actually really liking the idea of putting Knock Off on the main set. Putting it in the 4th slot over Rock Slide seems fine (and obviously moving RS to the general comments then), as it's probably a lot less niche or situational than Rock Slide.
Just gotta move the 4 EVs from HP to either Defense (probably Defense) so you don't get 8HKO'd by Stealth Rock and mention to make your spread Naive with 4 Attack over Defense if you run Knock Off.
That is supposed to be Naive, right?
I talked with Halcyon yesterday and we both agreed that Rock Polish is definitely more OO material. While it does a good job cleaning up offensive teams, it struggles to separate itself from Calm Mind for the most part because it cant break through bulky teams that well at all and lacks the raw power. On top of that, offensive teams still carry a lot of things that can deal with it, and it struggles to KO a decent amount of them without weakening them first. Priority is also an issue, as Azumarill is going to do a shit ton with Aqua Jet and even specially bulky variants of Talon are able to set up Bulk Ups on it. It's just not nearly as good at cleaning as it used to be and BW, and more often then not Calm Mind is almost always the better boosting option for its ability to break down stall teams while still punching huge holes in balance and offense. Definitely not a bad set at all, but not enough to deserve an entire slash on the CM set which is for the most part far superior.
Anyways, just a few tiny nitpicks.
I think it would be wise to mention somewhere in the overview that there are a ton of good Pursuit trappers in OU atm which can easily help eliminate its biggest counters and help it sweep or clean up, much like last gen but now it's even easier. And in the first set, just expand a bit on how Sludge Wave is useful for its ability to deal very solid damage to the Lati twins on the switch, which prevents them from just mindlessly switching in on Landorus. It oftentimes forces them to Roost the following, which is nice because it makes it easier to bring something in to check them or a fellow Pursuit trapper. Lastly, I'd remove most of the mentions in the C&C section where you talk about answers to the physical sets, as all of them are OO options and not seen enough to consider then good check/counters.
QC Approved 2/4
Anyways, just a few tiny nitpicks.
I think it would be wise to mention somewhere in the overview that there are a ton of good Pursuit trappers in OU atm which can easily help eliminate its biggest counters and help it sweep or clean up, much like last gen but now it's even easier. And in the first set, just expand a bit on how Sludge Wave is useful for its ability to deal very solid damage to the Lati twins on the switch, which prevents them from just mindlessly switching in on Landorus. It oftentimes forces them to Roost the following, which is nice because it makes it easier to bring something in to check them or a fellow Pursuit trapper. Lastly, I'd remove most of the mentions in the C&C section where you talk about answers to the physical sets, as all of them are OO options and not seen enough to consider then good check/counters.
QC Approved 2/4
Last edited:
Why does it need four QC checks?
New policy. All analysis need 4 now.