Item Clause needs to be "fixed" in order for a healthy metagame.

[c l e a r]

ok, first of all, mods, if you want to lock this, at least provide a good reason as to why this discussion is NOT productive instead of locking it just by scoffing at it.

On topic: We all know that the item clause is stupid, even if right now we have more items to equip with than in the ADV days, the fact that 2 Sand Streamers running around pretty much means that if item clause is enforced, you are either force to run Rock/Ground/Steel types, a weather move that is not named Sandstorm nor Hail, or Golduck with Cloud Nine (which is lol). If you don't, you'll be taking 1/16th of your health every turn, minus the one hold Lefties; and I didn't even mention how retarded it is when it is mixed with Stealth Rock and Spikes from a Skarm.

On the other end, I found the abuse of Focus Sash just amazing lately, you can set up quite nicely with that, Smeragle found more use becuase of it, Sash on Weavile is almost a standard, and anything that hits crazy hard will have it to have a second shot to hurt the opponent in this hyper-offensive metagame. Of course Sand stream laughs at it, but this just means that, every team needs to run a Sand Streamer, which imo is not a healthy metagame.

My purposal? Simple, one that will not harm Tyranitar, allows something diversive enough to win, and basically something everyone is happy with.

Restrict some items to something like 2, that proved themselves to be broken, like Focus Sash, and open up some items to unlimited that are needed in order for some sort of balance, like Leftovers against Sand Stream.

It's a pretty rough idea, don't you think? What do you say about it?

 

[Baldafor]

Is 1/16th of your life total in damage a turn really game breaking? Of course, if it ruins your sash or Shedinja, or brings you into OHKO range, I would imagine it not being great for you. I think Stealth Rock is the thing that needs adjustment more than anything, as that can't be removed by anything but Rapid Spin, and only a couple pokemon will be able to safely use that (Donphan, maybe Forry or Starmie if they don't get killed that turn).

What about Hail? Is that also something that needs to be nerfed against? I think not...

 

[Blizzard1]

I will now respond with an unhelpful nitpick:

It's not very convincing, in my humble opinion, to start an item clause discussion off with "We all know that the item clause is stupid".

 

[c l e a r]

it's not only the 1/16th health, it's also the fact that Sandstorm helps the SD of all Rock types in play, two very powerful Pokemon to pull it off. While hail you get only the damage and it can only being pulled of by lolabomasnow.

 

[Hrothgar]

If you hate the sash, just slap either a priority move or stealth rock on your team somewhere.

 

[Dragontamer]

The Sash is awesome. However, I see far more leftovers than the Sash. At least on Shoddy Battle. Not to mention, specs/band/scarf is gamebreaking as well.

1/16 damage is nothing compared to Garchomp OHKOing that Starmie that should have killed it. The scarf can do that.

Each item is of massive importance. Yeah, Focus Sash is gamebreaking, but so are so many other items. Again, the Scarf. The band. Life Orb. And then everyone complains about "hax items" like quick claw and brightpowder...

 

[Surgo]

I generally use Stealth Rock as much to scout for items as I do for the damage it deals. A nice side effect is that it ruins Focus Sashes. If you have trouble with Focus Sash, I suggest one of the following:

* Anything with Sand Stream or Snow Warning (3 pokemon).
* Anything with Stealth Rock (uncountable pokemon).
* Anything with a priority attack (less than the above, but still a large number of pokemon).

Any one of these will ruin your opponent's strategy should it revolve around Focus Sash, and at least one of the three you should be using -anyway-.

 

[Kumar]

This makes stuff much more complicated. A nono from my side.

 

[Solar Crash]

How often is the item clause enforced anyway? And even when it is, I think it's an opportune time for other, less regarded, items to shine. Plus with Black Sludge healing poison folk and Toxic Orb helping out Breloom with Poison Heal, you can at least BS another "leftovers" somewhere.

And if you don't like item clause? I don't think anyone is really making you play it. This, like all other things in pokemon, is simply another challenge that forces you to think your way out. A team full of leftovers, or even with more than just 1 lefties, is a little boring anyway. :p

 

[Archmaster Mesa]

When I make a team I try to make sure it's Item Clause legal, not because I insist that other people use it, but just because it's enforced in most tournament situations and it's always good to get accustomed to having to use it.

 

[Luck]

Your going to have to prove focus sash is broken which it is not

1.To use focus sash it either has to be starter or poke from your team has fainted.Thats only way you will be ensure to be at full health.

2.Then you have to assume that opponents attack will faint you

3.Knock Off

4.Trick

5.Spikes,Stealth,Toxic Spikes

6.Sandstream and Hail

7.Aftermath/Rough Skin(nobody use them but option)

8.Priority attack

9.Status Inflicting Moves

If you can't figure how to beat Focus sash you have problems.If weather is probelms get something that can change the weather simple.Most sandstorm teams assume that person won't change the weather,and most case don't like those stab rain dance surfs or solarbeams coming there way beside stream teams have normal a big weakness to ice,fighting or grass it is not that hard to take advantage of that.

 

[Forsety]

How often is the item clause enforced anyway?

Its actually a default rule in the DS game funnily enough.

Both the link battles Poke Cup ruleset and the Battle Towers enforce Item Clause as an official standard rule.

I echo Archmaster in saying that its good practice in general to get used to Item Clause as it is technically a standard rule and also ANYONE can abuse items. But it takes more thought into not duplicating them.

Besides anyone who uses leftovers on every pokemon is a fool when theres tons of great items available now.

 

[Volarion]

I agree that restrictions on some items and no restrictions on others makes an already overcomplicated ruleset even more confusing. It does however, make sense to allow two of every item. With the exception of leftovers and focus sashes (which of course can be very easily rendered useless) few items are used more than once anyway in standard OU.
My primary concern is that pokemon that are not hyper-offensive (and this is the majority) don't have any chance against the barrage of attacks that they face without leftovers, especially with today's prevalence of sandstorm. By taking away the luxury of leftovers from these pokemon (Most people use more than one walls/tanks) you drastically reduce their usefulness as they become more susceptible to OHKOs from powerful sweepers. Perhaps with this addition, fewer people will argue about making Tyranitar uber. This is by no means a massive change, only allowing 2 of every item. Just think about it, I seriously doubt it would be a difficult or drastic change.

Edit: Forsety, you must keep in mind that most of those Cups allow 3 or 4 pokemon and the battle tower allows 3. In that case using more than one of the same item is just a lack of originality and plain dumb. We're talking about 6 pokemon here.

 

[VashTheStampede]

Well yea, but it gets kind of ridiculous when you run into a team where half of them have Lefties. Yesterday I ran into a team with 5 Lefties, and before I ran into one with 6. The one that pissed me off most was a team with Walls and Roost/Moonlight/Slackoff etc etc, total of 4 Pokes running Lefties.

While it may not be a great idea for a person to run oh-so-many Lefties on a team, it is extremely annoying. I, myself, choose not to run more then 2 on a team, just for the simple fact that it would annoy me, so I won't do it to somebody else.

As for introduce a new "rule" or whatever you want to put it is, I would like it to limit all Items to only 2 per team, and only 1 for certain things like Lefties.

Or just ban Lefties entirely lolz :P

 

[Jumpman16]

While I agree with your hypothesis, your reasoning is pretty flawed because you're stating that an item is broken before anyone's garnered enough experience in the as-yet-nonexistent metagame to be able to make such a claim. The idea of restricting item usage to "something like two" is a shot in the dark *because* of that fact — no one can tell if such a restriction is necessary, let alone to what quantitative degree.

At any rate, as Surgo said, you kind of don't deserve to win if you do not have at least one "indirect Focus Sash counter" on your team.

 

[Jumpman16]

Well yea, but it gets kind of ridiculous when you run into a team where half of them have Lefties. Yesterday I ran into a team with 5 Lefties, and before I ran into one with 6. The one that pissed me off most was a team with Walls and Roost/Moonlight/Slackoff etc etc, total of 4 Pokes running Lefties.

While it may not be a great idea for a person to run oh-so-many Lefties on a team, it is extremely annoying. I, myself, choose not to run more then 2 on a team, just for the simple fact that it would annoy me, so I won't do it to somebody else.

As for introduce a new "rule" or whatever you want to put it is, I would like it to limit all Items to only 2 per team, and only 1 for certain things like Lefties.

Or just ban Lefties entirely lolz :P

"Sorry" to single you out, but this is exactly the kind of post that makes me shake my head at the absolute shortsightedness of some of our less experienced battlers. First of all, "annoying" should never, ever enter into an argument against something on a competitive pokemon board. Second, you're so close to being on the right track when you say this

"While it may not be a great idea for a person to run oh-so-many Lefties on a team"

But then you take a giant step backwards and propose that it be claused or even banned entirely (i know you were "joking" but you kind of weren't, really). I don't get it. Seriously, why? Why is it so hard to make that logical leap? You know that it isn't necessarily a good idea to run a team with six Leftovers users, so honestly why is it so hard to think of a way you can take advantage of this rather than throwing up your hands? This phenomenon will never cease to baffle me.

Is our board seriously not teaching you anything about how to capitalize on predictability and an unwillingness to stray from convention? This isn't even a rhetorical question, since I honestly wonder if we're doing something wrong if someone who has been a member for a full year can still harbor not only the instinct but the desire to post something as close-minded and remonstrative as this.

 

[Forsety]

So lets see...

Perhaps with this addition, fewer people will argue about making Tyranitar uber.

I don't want Tyrannitar to become 00ber so lets allow lefties.

...

I'm not seeing the logic here since last I checked Leftovers didn't guarantee an automatic playing field with T-tar who gets a nice S.def bonus anyway which is the REAL reason for the 00ber debates.

I agree that restrictions on some items and no restrictions on others makes an already overcomplicated ruleset even more confusing. It does however, make sense to allow two of every item.

Thats no different from overcomplicating the ruleset.
Your adding a obscure non-obvious siderule to an established rule.

Edit: Forsety, you must keep in mind that most of those Cups allow 3 or 4 pokemon and the battle tower allows 3. In that case using more than one of the same item is just a lack of originality and plain dumb. We're talking about 6 pokemon here.

Yes I did keep in that mind.

What exactly is so crippling about simply using some other items, you can do it for 3 can't you deal with 3 more?

I mean an average team could see something like...

Leftovers/Pinch Berry/Focus Sash/Choice Item/Choice Item/Life Orb...maybe even Black Sludge, Toxic Orb, Power boosting item, Sitrus Berry or any other of the upteen berries.

If I actually tried then I'm sure I could find alot of interesting uses for items, you only have to look at things like Orb'd Hera/Breloom/Ursaring/Facade Clefable to see lack of recovery is far from crippling.

At best you'll have what...2 walls. One who is likely Blissey who couldn't give a toss about losing a 'fatal' 1/16th recovery with Softboiled.

Most will either be made up of support, sweepers etc.

 

[kanak0]

Just saying, Blissey is crippled without Leftovers because is forces her to use Softboiled more often. This gives you more chances to stat up and break the 50% mark. Some pokemon NEED leftovers for their strategy. (Blissey, CMcune, Dusknoir come to mind) I think you have an interesting idea which will help people in the long run. But please think about how your phrase it. No one will want to listen to you if you dont back or oppionions with logic.

 

[General Tso]

I'm not saying this should happen, but even if this new "fix" were to be enacted, how are you going to enforce it? I'm pretty sure the guys on Shoddy don't want to go clausing certain items to 2. And then there's WiFi where you know some people aren't going to follow the rules (At least on Gfaqs, I dunno about here)

 

[Orwell]

First off, the new metagame is far too new to even be able to justify making such a large change mandatory. More testing is needed.

IMO, Sandstorm is not that big a deal. Yes, it reduces the durability of most pokemon, but not nearly enough to ensure a distinct advantage in battles. Anyone can come up with a strategy to deal with Sandstorm. More importantly, an effective team will not thwarted by Sandstorm alone. Item Clause in general promotes more diversity in the game, and any tank that needs Leftovers, even with Sandstorm considered, is not a tank.

Furthermore, any situational clauses for the most part are only going to make things more complicated. If Sandstorm alone can ruin a metagame, than situational item clauses most certainly will. Item Clause may be restrictive at times, but you have not provided a good reason to "change" it as of yet. If it's that big a problem for you, then just play without Item clause yourself. If certain items are as ubiquitous as you say, then why not exploit their predictability? Pokemon is a game of strategy, and winning battles should relatively easy if you know what the other person is going to do.

 

[Firestorm]

I don't think Priority attacks and even Sand sometimes are that helpful against Focus Sash. Focus Sash's main use I've found is Revenge Killer Pokemon who stop a really fast boosted Pokemon from sweeping by hanging on and hitting them back hard to KO.

So the only real counter is Stealth Rock for that. Thankfully, the danger of SR on almost every team has stopped people from relying too much on Focus Sash. Although I really do think Stealth Rock was a broken move -.-; Stupid Game Freak. Pretty sure that's just beating a dead horse though.

 

[Familiar Trainer]

I don't think Priority attacks and even Sand sometimes are that helpful against Focus Sash. Focus Sash's main use I've found is Revenge Killer Pokemon who stop a really fast boosted Pokemon from sweeping by hanging on and hitting them back hard to KO.

So the only real counter is Stealth Rock for that. Thankfully, the danger of SR on almost every team has stopped people from relying too much on Focus Sash. Although I really do think Stealth Rock was a broken move -.-; Stupid Game Freak. Pretty sure that's just beating a dead horse though.

Fortunately though, most revenge killer Pokemon won't be able to OHKO anything without some sort of power boost (which is why I always like my Weavile's Choice Banded). Especially on him, mostly because his strongest move has a 75 BP without factoring STAB in. If Ice Punch just happens to be SE (looking at you, DDNite), it will most likely KO, so switch to a Pokemon that can deal with Weavile. Assuming your playing conservatively, that would probably be your best move.

If you can't handle Focus Sash, your team probably isn't sturdy enough to withstand a beating even if your opponent wasn't abusing them imo. Because all it allows is an extra hit on the occasion Sandstorm/Hail/Stealth Rock/Spikes aren't out.

 

[VashTheStampede]

@Jumpman: You know you love me. Dun lie! And don't be sorry, you know you wanted to do it anyway. Apologizing for something that you wanted to do makes little sense, because what's the point of doing it if you're going to say sorry? That's silly! Seeing as you couldn't quite tell if I was serious or joking at the end, then I believe I did my job extremely well, as I like to leave people wondering. :)

After rereading my post, I realize what I put that made you so... Looks like a mix of confusion/"anger"/curiosity, and it looks like my typing got flawed from much multi-tasking, go me! Well let me tell you about my "year-long registration:"

Came in whenever I did, which I believe was fairly late after LG and even Emerald came out, scoped out the site for about 2 weeks to check things out before I posted. When I did, it was a set for Crobat which helped me out quite a bit (Still does, even in DP), and got pretty much mocked and laughed at, so I said "Fuck this shit I'm out." Then DP came out. After I "beat" it and fiddled around in the Tower, which I think was sometime after I got out of the hospital (mid May, maybe), I decided to start checking things like Serebii and Smogon again. Lately, on Shoddy, using mostly of "my own" movesets after checking out the Analysis and saying "I think I like this better over this for team-coverage and surprise," I found that I have won at least 70% of the games I play on there. Obviously, between Smogon and my own tinkering, I must be learning something.

Now, to help uncloud your thoughts a bit, against my better judgment... You seem distraught over my tinkering with the actual rules, or my suggestion of rewriting a clause, however you may take it, which is, ironically, where I jumbled up my typing. (For the Record, I won the game against the guy with 4 Lefties, forget about the one with 5). The thought errors is nice enough, but the grammatical error in the beginning of the last "paragraph" is just icing on the cake for the Typo King. Anyway, how about a nice revision since I am done eating, and I will do my best to keep it short:

As for introduction of a new "rule" or whatever you see it as, if changed... Pah, you know what? *scratches the whole thing out*

It's easier this way: If you don't like to battle people using the same items or are tired of dealing with Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, or what have you, then when you request a match, indicate you want to play under the Item Clause, without SR users, or whatever tickles your fancy, just don't expect many battles with so many limitations.

Ultimately, when you get a match going, if you didn't ask/agree on specifics, then you need to be ready for anything, or be ready to lose.

EDIT: For those that couldn't tell (not pointing fingers), it was a joke about banning Lefties. If you didn't get that, then I have to tell (Tell, not ask) Mr. T to pity you, fool. :P

 

[Carl]

I don't have a problem with item clause actually.. I have enough options now that I'm not fully against it. I also don't mind fighting the team with 6 Leftovers or Focus Sash or whatever. However, I feel it would be much harder to enforce a "2 of each item" limit than it is to enforce a strict item clause.

ok, first of all, mods, if you want to lock this, at least provide a good reason as to why this discussion is NOT productive instead of locking it just by scoffing at it.

You shouldn't have to say this if you really do have a valid point/discussion/whatever to make in a topic by the way.

 

[Alysanne]

@Jumpman: You know you love me. Dun lie! And don't be sorry, you know you wanted to do it anyway. Apologizing for something that you wanted to do makes little sense, because what's the point of doing it if you're going to say sorry? That's silly! Seeing as you couldn't quite tell if I was serious or joking at the end, then I believe I did my job extremely well, as I like to leave people wondering. :)

After rereading my post, I realize what I put that made you so... Looks like a mix of confusion/"anger"/curiosity, and it looks like my typing got flawed from much multi-tasking, go me! Well let me tell you about my "year-long registration:"

Came in whenever I did, which I believe was fairly late after LG and even Emerald came out, scoped out the site for about 2 weeks to check things out before I posted. When I did, it was a set for Crobat which helped me out quite a bit (Still does, even in DP), and got pretty much mocked and laughed at, so I said "Fuck this shit I'm out." Then DP came out. After I "beat" it and fiddled around in the Tower, which I think was sometime after I got out of the hospital (mid May, maybe), I decided to start checking things like Serebii and Smogon again. Lately, on Shoddy, using mostly of "my own" movesets after checking out the Analysis and saying "I think I like this better over this for team-coverage and surprise," I found that I have won at least 70% of the games I play on there. Obviously, between Smogon and my own tinkering, I must be learning something.

Now, to help uncloud your thoughts a bit, against my better judgment... You seem distraught over my tinkering with the actual rules, or my suggestion of rewriting a clause, however you may take it, which is, ironically, where I jumbled up my typing. (For the Record, I won the game against the guy with 4 Lefties, forget about the one with 5). The thought errors is nice enough, but the grammatical error in the beginning of the last "paragraph" is just icing on the cake for the Typo King. Anyway, how about a nice revision since I am done eating, and I will do my best to keep it short:

As for introduction of a new "rule" or whatever you see it as, if changed... Pah, you know what? *scratches the whole thing out*

It's easier this way: If you don't like to battle people with the same item or are tired of dealing with Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, or what have you, then when you request a match, indicate you want to play under the Item Clause, without SR users, or whatever tickles your fancy, just don't expect many battles with so many limitations.

Ultimately, when you get a match going, if you didn't ask/agree on specifics, then you need to be ready for anything, or be ready to lose.

What the fuck?

Anyway, on topic, nothing stops you from using the broken items yourself. Nothing stops you from using a strategy that negates the advantage their items give them.

I also haven't seen any teams with 2 Focus Sash-users, nor would I consider it a good idea.