Gyarados (T-Wave)

[Despotar]

I know a lot of you will have heard of this set, in was featured in the Smogcast, and in the Smog.

Current status: Awaiting QC approval (1/3 approvals) (0/3 rejections)
Topic Title: Gyarados (T-Wave)

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gyarados

[SET]
name: Offensive Thunder Wave
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Bounce/Stone Edge
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Thunder wave
item: Leftovers/Life Orb
nature: Adamant
EVs: 120 HP/128 Atk/76 Def/184 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-This has been proven successful
-Everyone can counter standard DD Gyara, but this version is unexpected.
-Abusing Gyarados in a new way.
-You can use the extra power of Adamant with this set because you still outspeed everything after a TW.

Additional Comments:
-156 HP / 88 Atk / 96 Def / 168 Spe and Jolly nature allows you to outspeed Jolteon after a DD
-Ground pokemon (Who are immune to thunder wave) such as Flygon and Gliscor don't generally switch in, as they're afraid of a powerful STAB waterfall.
-When using Adamant nature, use this EV spread 120 HP/128 Atk/76 Def/184 Spe

Teammates and Counters:
-Is stopped by Scarfed Rotom forms that avoid a TW, and Jolteon can be a problem.
-Choice Band Scizor and/or Tyranitar with Pursuit makes a good teammate, and they can trap and kill Rotom.
-Slower pokemon such as Machamp do well along with Gyarados, as Thunder Wave helps them a lot.
-Sub-thunder wave Jirachi makes a great teammate, as the help each other out.

 

[Towelie]

those are very very very very inefficient evs. i really think a mention of thunder wave can just be put in additional comments.

 

[Eggbert]

T-Wave really doesn't make a new set. But it can work on alot of the sets, especially the rest-talk one on more offensive teams that want to have a check to threats.

 

[Alan]

Vire is also a problem for this set. Its spelled "Thunder Wave" not "Thunderwave".

Slower teammates like Machamp should be listed, as the can greatly benefit from having a slowed down team.

Also, I know it won't be approved, but ParaGyara has a cool ring to it for a set name.

 

[mtr]

I haven't listened to the smogcast, but yeah, Thunder Wave should be slashed on the Rest Talker rather than placed on an otherwise offensive set. Offensive Gyarados is often starved for coverage on various threats, and Thunder Wave doesn't help matters.

On an otherwise offensive team, I can definitely see myself using RT Gyara with TWave > Roar as a Rotom lure, but I don't see myself using this set.

Still, I've been wrong about a lot of things, so I guess it's worth a try.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

This is completely OC material, as everything else about this set and what it tries to do is identical to the Bulky Dragon Dance (or another) set. Simply by virtue of including another move in a set, you do not validate that set's existence as separate from the other sets. I also don't really think that Thunder Wave should be directly slashed in anywhere, but rather that it should be kept in OC.

 

[Delko]

DJX09 used a somewhat succesful T-wave Gyarados on his team. It's almost the same but with slightly different EV's.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
EVs: 156 HP / 88 Atk / 96 Def / 168 Spe
- Waterfall
- Thunder Wave
- Dragon Dance
- Bounce

Gyarados suffers from odd EVs from a glance. They are just the bulkydos EVs in HP and Defense, and enough Speed EVs to outspeed Jolteon after a DD. The rest or put into Attack. With the spread and EVs, Gyarados is a nice blend of support, bulk, and power which is extremely helpful on the team.

So I agree with just giving T-wave just a mention in AC, or to slash it in on Bulky Gyarados or the RestTalker.

 

[reyscarface]

if anything I think the "new" Thunder Wave set should be something like ThunderWave / Waterfall / Roar / Substitute with a defensive spread. Man I saw this thing on the ladder (I think it was Opjqy) and it was a pain to take down because Paralysis + flinch chance is high, you cant status it if it has a sub, you cant roar it because it will roar you first, and if you bring something frail to hurt it you will just get waterfalled. Its pretty effective for what its worth. If its decided to be made analysis id say using slow teammates that like paralysis + some layers, because that thing Roars a lot of stuff, would be benefical.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ivysaur]

Pride and DJX09 used a team with a similar Gyara, but with a much more efficient spread.

EVs: 156 HP / 88 Atk / 96 Def / 168 Spe
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
(same set)

EVs and Nature:

Gyarados suffers from odd evs from a glance. They are just the bulkydos EVs in HP and Defense, and enough Speed EVs to outspeed Jolteon after a DD. The rest or put into Attack. With the spread and EVs, Gyarados is a nice blend of support, bulk, and power which is extremely helpful on the team.

Though I do think this set had more merit in the metagame they used it in. They could often catch Latias on the switchin with T-wave, which would hinder it for the rest of the match.

I've used this Gyarados before, and I have to say, it's been underwhelming for me. Many other Pokemon (such as Celebi, Jirachi, etc.) can afford to lend a moveslot to team support by way of T-Wave or Body Slam, but Gyarados really needs the extra coverage of a third attack or the utility of Taunt.

It's not really up to me, but if this goes through, I'd mention things like Machamp and LO Heatran as teammates. They can really take advantage when opponents are paralyzed, allowing them to score KOs (or confusion in Machamps case) on things that would normally outspeed them.

EDIT: You also spelled "Gyarados" wrong in the link, it just leads to nowhere at the moment.

 

[DJXO9]

Yeah I don't think that this set is worth writing an analysis. (If i thought it were, I would've written it :P). It was so effective on mine and Pride's team because of how well it fit in with the hard hitting, paralyzing nature of the rest of the team. I do think that T Wave is definitely mentionable in the Gyarados analysis though.

Though I do think this set had more merit in the metagame they used it in. They could often catch Latias on the switchin with T-wave, which would hinder it for the rest of the match.

This too. So much stuff was more susceptible to paralysis. (Read: Salamence, Latias)

Edit: Well, if this does get approved, the EV spread in OP should be changed, probably not to the spread I used, but more defensive.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

bwahahahah

Been using this thing for quite a while, it's a blast. Catches a lot of annoying shit with TWave (nothing better than catching Scarf Jirachi or non-lum Kingdra), threatens a sweep later, and can just generally work well. I'd say that a defensive spread should be considered, or even possibly just a defensive set entirely alongside this one, but I really don't think this is to be underestimated at all.

QC APPROVED (1/3)

 

[Megan_Fox]

while i dont question the set, i agree with some others who said this set doesnt merit its own analysis. it functions very similar to the bulky dos already on site with only one move difference. i personally think twave should just be slashed in on bulky dos and also slashed in on the resttalk set. the current spread posted will be outspeed by alot of stuff before the twave which i dont think is preferable.

p.s. i like the set rey posted, should be looked into more

 

[mtr]

Not just "so much stuff", another point is that back then, Gyarados checks, like Scarf Rotom and Scarf Latias, were based heavily around speed. But now, with Latias gone, the favored Gyarados checks are, besides Rotom, Celebi, Vaporeon, and Suicune, who really don't care much about paralysis.

Still, I would say that TWave on Gyarados is viable, just not optimal.

 

[Despotar]

Changed the EV spread, and added Sub/Roar as options.

 

[DJXO9]

Changed the EV spread, and added Sub/Roar as options.

You need Jolly to outspeed Jolteon.

Edit: Either way, I don't think the spread we used should be the one used in a general analysis for Gyara. Pride and I only used it because we couldn't paralyze Jolteon, and had no truly reliable way to beat it on our team.

 

[reyscarface]

Im not sure if piling up Substitute and Roar on this Dragon Dance set is benefical. Both sets play completely different, one attempts to sweep with boosts and the other ones attempt to slowly kill the opponent, not even mentioning that the EV spreads are completely different since without Dragon Dance, the SubRoar set doesnt need that much speed to beat Jolteon and Starmie and etc. and can be concentrated on way more bulk.

 

[Despotar]

@ DJ; Changed.
@ Rey; Okay, someone else will have to make a sub t-wave set.

 

[MetaNite]

You haven't actually said why the hell we'd use Thunder Wave on Gyarados other than "has been proven successful." From where I stand, Celebi, defensive Rotom-A, Starmie, and Skarmory can still counter you and don't really care about paralysis that much. Today somebody used this against me and I did not have a real Gyarados counter, so I used Scarf Flygon with ThunderPunch. Every time he Thunder Waved instead of Dragon Danced or attacked I got a free switch in. I'm sure there is a reason to use Thunder Wave but I don't think it deserves its own set; it seems like the definition of "other options" to me.

 

[Despotar]

Well, the basic strategy (That I use anyway) is switch is Gyarados on something that will switch, Thunderwave and hit whatever comes in, if it's something that can't do to much, DD, if it can OHKO you, switch to a counter.
It really ruins scarf rotom forms, Suicune doesn't appreciate Thunder Wave at all.
Also, just to say, if you PAR the opponent, and use waterfall, the opponent only has 55% chance to attack, which aren't good chances. So with some good luck, you can beat Skarm, Defensive Rotom, and Celebi. (Although if you can switch to a counter that's obviously a better choice).

 

[Phantom_IV]

I'd agree with many of the above posters and say that the move should be a slash on Bulky Gyara. On a side note, I've seen that Sub Twave Gyara set and it is annoying as hell to face. That's the kind of thing that needs its own set.

 

[undisputed]

Guys, this isn't really something that should have an analysis. It isn't one of those Pokemon that fits any team, or even a majority of teams. Its mainly a niche Pokemon, and only really works with the team it was designed for.

 

[TubaKing]

I've both faced and used Sub/T-Wave Gyarados and it's definitely deserving of its own set on-site. It plays entirely differently than any of the Gyarados sets currently listed in the analysis and is great for paralysis support, general flinch haxing fun, and PHazing.
As far as DD/T-Wave Gyarados goes, Thunder Wave could really just be slashed over Taunt on the current Bulky DD Gyarados set and an additional paragraph could be added on the benefits of using Thunder Wave on this set.

 

[Despotar]

Okay, I'm going to start testing, then write a analysis for sub-wave Gyara.

 

[Despotar]

Added a new set for acceptance

 

[jc104]

Also, just to say, if you PAR the opponent, and use waterfall, the opponent only has 55% chance to attack, which aren't good chances. So with some good luck, you can beat Skarm, Defensive Rotom, and Celebi. (Although if you can switch to a counter that's obviously a better choice).

-The given EV spread allows you to 2HKO Scarfed Rotom, and there's 45% it won't hit you for the one turn it survives (if you PAR it), while retaining some bulk and speed.

I don't think this is right. There is a 20% chance that they flinch, and an 80% chance that they don't. Therefore there is an 80% * 25% = 20% chance they will be fully paralysed, so they have a 60% chance to attack. With sub you can, by subbing repeatedly, increase the chance of 2HKOing something like Rotom to around 75%.

You should probably stress that one of the main reasons that Gyarados spreads paralysis well is that the powerful waterfall scares off the immune ground-type pokemon, whilst also preventing Jolteon from switching in easily. The threat of a bulky Taunt Gyarados also prevents many slower, defensive pokemon that don't care about Paralysis from switching in, such as Blissey and Swampert. The emphasis is paralysis for supporting the team first, dragon dance second.

I'll be sure to test the SubRoar set soon, though it looks like Life Orb would kill it way too quickly with SR and Sub. Leftovers is important as it allows you to sub repeatedly, fishing for a full paralysis. In sandstorm, if you switched in, subbed, and attacked once, you would be left at under 25% health with Life Orb, ignoring the possibility of being attacked. Even without Life Orb, Rapid Spin and/or wish support should be suggested.