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Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKIII *Official Media Only*
- Thread starter DHR-107
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I expect they might go over it very briefly, yes. But in-depth? Definitely not. And, while we're at it, I just wanna say that Cynthia's outfit still has be baffled, the poor girl is gonna pass out with all those clothes on.
Obs: I'm begging you to let that ship sink. Go over tumblr or something if you really wanna talk about it.
Going on this topic (somewhat), I'm still kinda surprised they showcased Wally alongside Pokemon League champions. I mean, fine, in the ORAS post-game Wally has nothing to be jealous of them, but he really looks like an odd-one out. Why not Steven, for instance?
At least this means Blue is no longer the only rival to appear in a generation other than the ones he appears in as the rival. Will Red lose this unique trait one day?
At least this means Blue is no longer the only rival to appear in a generation other than the ones he appears in as the rival. Will Red lose this unique trait one day?
Is Wally really that popular to appear like that? I never thought about it until Siggu mentioned it.
My guess: They chose Wally to have a Hoenn representative with a diverse team. While Steven is the Champion of Hoenn, his teams are usually monsters who wouldn't be hurt in a sandstorm (Steel, Rock, and Ground Pokemon), so you could plan somewhat easily around that. But in ORAS, Wally is the strongest trainer in the game who diversifies his team (other than the player, of course): Gallade (Psychic-Fighting), Magnezone (Electric-Steel), and Roserade (Grass-Poison) are constants. When you fight him in Victory Road, he also has an Altaria (Dragon-Flying) and a Delcatty (Normal), and he later replaces them with far stronger Pokemon like Talonflame (Fire-Flying) and Azumarill (Water-Fairy). He even takes a second page from Cynthia's book and raises his own Garchomp (Dragon-Ground)! Sure, there are weaknesses to exploit, but it's not as obvious as "Fire and Water beat the Champion".
I'm mainly guessing this way, though, because the other three trainers revealed for the Battle Tree so far (Cynthia, Red, and Teal) are known to use a variety of Pokemon when you battle them in other games. If Alder showed up for Unova, this trend would probably break since half his team in BW are bugs. On the other hand, using N to represent Unova here would probably support this idea.
I do think Wally has become a bit more popular thanks to his updated role and character arc in ORAS. And it never said you had to be Champion to participate the Battle Tree, only you had to be achieved just as much as an Alolan Champion. Taking into account the Island Challenges are different from the Pokemon League challenge, being more about bonding with your Pokemon through solving puzzles/completing tasks than through battling, and that Wally was allowed to go to the Battle Resort which is reserved for trainers who achieved great success, I have no reason to doubt Wally is on an "equal" level with an Alolan Champion. Also who's to say that between ORAS and Sun & Moon that Wally didn't go through and beat the Pokemon League and now has a Champion title?
And we can't have multiple representatives from a region because...?
But the Red/Yellow and Blue/Green ships...
Pokémon doesn't really directly confirm or imply ships that often anyway, with a few exceptions like Ruby/Sapphire from the Manga. There are a few sprinkled in here and there, like Ash/Misty or maybe the ORAS Brendan/May thing with the litleonids. They generally don't do much with side characters though, like we know Red and Green will most likely be, nor will they polarize them by politicizing them like that.
The lack of story did hurt Red and Green's inclusion in BW2, I think. It left them feeling kind of tacked on just for the sake of being there. Locking their inclusion to just the PWT didn't really help any of the returning characters, because most of them were just lost in the crowd, and it would have been nice to even just see them meander about, even if it was as simple as whatever Jasmine was doing in DPPt. Red being there just kind of begged the question of why he would leave the supposed isolation that he placed himself in. On the other hand, it would be very nice to see an actual reference to the PWT come from either character (more than likely Green). Not only would it provide some kind of depth to them, but it would show a chronological relation to more than just "After GSC/HGSS".
I thought most of Ash/Misty was implied by the english dub? Either way Serena did kiss Ash, so that ship was sent off on a high note. ('Cus odds are she won't return.)
And they were at the PWT because they are strong trainers, like everyone else there. Not much back story needed, and maybe Red losing to Gold was what he needed to end his solitary training. I do at least want to know what brought Red and Green to Alola, together. Maybe it's as simple as the Tree being the new PWT. Maybe Samuel Oak (i like how we now kinda have to specify which Oak) sent them to work on the Pokedex. I reckon we'll find out.
Since SM have no Pokemon league will the game end when you become the Island champion?
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How can anyone possibly answer this?
The Orange Islands were set up as a sort of building romance between the two that peaked in the Power of One. There was more build up in the English dub, yes, but the underlying intent was still there from the original. Ash/Serena is a thing, but it felt kind of heavy on Serena's side, although that's just me. This probably isn't the place for all of this anyway.
I know why they were at the PWT, and I could see Green being there just for that reason. But it's that reasoning, alone, that is why Red felt tacked on to me. No one was obligated to accept the invitation, unless they go with something along the lines of the leagues approving of the publicity and obligated their gym leaders to accept the invitation, and even then (assuming there are leagues with that kind of power in the first place), that doesn't necessarily affect Red, and it most certainly didn't affect Giovanni (however and whyever Cynthia would invite him). But still, everyone just showed up because they were invited. Don't forget that this was New York, and every foreign gym leader and champion their were Japanese - or at least lived and worked in Japan. My point was that without any kind of hint of background, Red's appearance felt kind of random or forced, because he didn't feel like the type of character that would accept an invitation like that in his only other incarnation as an NPC.
At least with the Battle Tree, I can see Green being the personality type to grow up, accept his childhood loss, and still see Red as a friend. He most likely resented Red for a time, but he's the type to grow past that and strive to become better once again. He's certainly the type who would go out of his way to drag a reclusive friend like Red onto a tropical vacation. Maybe that's what happened with the PWT, and I could actually see that being the case, but the writers rushed it and I hope that they don't do so here.
No one can, what I really meant to ask was if anyone had any ideas on how SM could end. I just remembered that BW didn't end with the Pokemon League, SM could end similar to BW; when you beat the true villain.
The question is interesting nonetheless. I doubt Game Freak would create a game where the ending basically goes "Oh, by the way, of all the challenges you've done, this was the last one and the game is over. Roll credits!"
The Pokémon League is actually a pretty fair way to end a Pokémon game. A gauntlet of five difficult battles, the last of which is a six-on-six battle against a varied team of strong Pokémon. It is, essentially, an endurance test of the mechanics and team building you've been practising the entire game. The Pokémon League is the "end boss" of the games, preceeded by the game's hardest dungeon (Victory Road) and a saving/resting point (The Pokémon League Poké Center, which you can leave and return to whenever you want). The Hall of Fame is your victory cutscene, a definitive "now it's over, you've beaten the game" before the credits roll.
Gameplay- and mechanics-wise, the Pokémon games boil down to dungeon exploring and Pokémon battles. A near-universal rule of game design is that the finale should contain a test of the skills the player acquires throughout the game. Therefore, I think that conceptually, the Victory Road - Elite Four - Hall of Fame approach is the one feasible way to end a Pokémon game. A difficult dungeon, a save point (Fly location) for easy access after your final preparations, and a series of difficult Pokémon battles. The final battle is against a very strong Trainer, followed by a small celebration/acknowledgement of your victory.
With all this in mind, we should ask ourselves: How can Sun&Moon have a proper ending without a Pokémon League? First things first: There has to be an end dungeon of sorts, a parallel to Victory Road. This serves as a build-up to your final challenge, and is filled with strong trainers and strong wild Pokémon. An endurance test, if you like. For how long can you keep your team "alive" without healing? After the end dungeon, I think a Poké Center is mandatory. You might want to swap around your team, stock up on items, maybe even catch and train entirely new Pokémon to take on the final challenge. The location of the final challenge should therefore be easy to leave and return to, via Fly or the relevant Poké Ride. Then a barrier, a point of no return, followed a series of battles. Four (or so) difficult Trainers to wear you down, then a final battle that can only be initiated when the "minions" are defeated. Pokémon battles is a core element of the games, and this is the battle where your skills are put to the test.
All in all, I think the ending of Sun & Moon will look a lot like the ending to other Pokémon games. If not on the surface, then certainly if you judge by the actions you take. The same design elements will probably be present: Final dungeon filled with strong trainers, save point, gauntlet, final battle, celebration, credits.
Personally, I'd also prefer that the main story is over at the point of the final challenge. The Elite Four will usually represent a jump in the level curve, and require great preparations that may involve a lot of grinding. They don't present a sense of urgency, however. You're never in a hurry to battle the Elite Four, you're given ample time to prepare, explore the map, train entirely new Pokémon or just mess around before you take on the final challenge. Putting a "time limit" on it in-universe, but not mechanics-wise, creates a disonnance that breaks immersion when so much preparation is required. At least it doesn't take as much time to prepare for and return to the other "boss battles" in the game. Even if the player character is in a hurry, you can quickly return to action after being knocked out, and try again before the villain gets time to execute his final plan or whatever.
The final challenge is also repeatable, so it doesn't make sense to end with the villains. They're supposed to go to jail/be exiled/learn the error of their ways/otherwise go away after you defeat them, so it would be strange for them to still be there when you return after the credits. BW1 had an interesting approach here, with the Elite Four challenge going forward as usual, but the villain stepping in for the Champion in the initial encounter. In all subsequent Elite Four runs, the villains were nowhere to be seen.
Then again, the endings to Pokémon Colosseum and XD both broke the previous two rules quite hard, so I guess it could work either way. They included the villains, had a sense of urgency, and no Hall of Fame. There "battle gauntlet" was also absent, if I remember correctly.
But yeah, Sun and Moon. No matter how they do it, I predict there will be a big, final dungeon. Then a last Poké Center you can fly to. Then a series of battles with no healing machines in between (only Items you've stocked up). Then a final battle against an extra-powerful trainer. Then a cutscene before the credits.
The Pokémon League is actually a pretty fair way to end a Pokémon game. A gauntlet of five difficult battles, the last of which is a six-on-six battle against a varied team of strong Pokémon. It is, essentially, an endurance test of the mechanics and team building you've been practising the entire game. The Pokémon League is the "end boss" of the games, preceeded by the game's hardest dungeon (Victory Road) and a saving/resting point (The Pokémon League Poké Center, which you can leave and return to whenever you want). The Hall of Fame is your victory cutscene, a definitive "now it's over, you've beaten the game" before the credits roll.
Gameplay- and mechanics-wise, the Pokémon games boil down to dungeon exploring and Pokémon battles. A near-universal rule of game design is that the finale should contain a test of the skills the player acquires throughout the game. Therefore, I think that conceptually, the Victory Road - Elite Four - Hall of Fame approach is the one feasible way to end a Pokémon game. A difficult dungeon, a save point (Fly location) for easy access after your final preparations, and a series of difficult Pokémon battles. The final battle is against a very strong Trainer, followed by a small celebration/acknowledgement of your victory.
With all this in mind, we should ask ourselves: How can Sun&Moon have a proper ending without a Pokémon League? First things first: There has to be an end dungeon of sorts, a parallel to Victory Road. This serves as a build-up to your final challenge, and is filled with strong trainers and strong wild Pokémon. An endurance test, if you like. For how long can you keep your team "alive" without healing? After the end dungeon, I think a Poké Center is mandatory. You might want to swap around your team, stock up on items, maybe even catch and train entirely new Pokémon to take on the final challenge. The location of the final challenge should therefore be easy to leave and return to, via Fly or the relevant Poké Ride. Then a barrier, a point of no return, followed a series of battles. Four (or so) difficult Trainers to wear you down, then a final battle that can only be initiated when the "minions" are defeated. Pokémon battles is a core element of the games, and this is the battle where your skills are put to the test.
All in all, I think the ending of Sun & Moon will look a lot like the ending to other Pokémon games. If not on the surface, then certainly if you judge by the actions you take. The same design elements will probably be present: Final dungeon filled with strong trainers, save point, gauntlet, final battle, celebration, credits.
Personally, I'd also prefer that the main story is over at the point of the final challenge. The Elite Four will usually represent a jump in the level curve, and require great preparations that may involve a lot of grinding. They don't present a sense of urgency, however. You're never in a hurry to battle the Elite Four, you're given ample time to prepare, explore the map, train entirely new Pokémon or just mess around before you take on the final challenge. Putting a "time limit" on it in-universe, but not mechanics-wise, creates a disonnance that breaks immersion when so much preparation is required. At least it doesn't take as much time to prepare for and return to the other "boss battles" in the game. Even if the player character is in a hurry, you can quickly return to action after being knocked out, and try again before the villain gets time to execute his final plan or whatever.
The final challenge is also repeatable, so it doesn't make sense to end with the villains. They're supposed to go to jail/be exiled/learn the error of their ways/otherwise go away after you defeat them, so it would be strange for them to still be there when you return after the credits. BW1 had an interesting approach here, with the Elite Four challenge going forward as usual, but the villain stepping in for the Champion in the initial encounter. In all subsequent Elite Four runs, the villains were nowhere to be seen.
Then again, the endings to Pokémon Colosseum and XD both broke the previous two rules quite hard, so I guess it could work either way. They included the villains, had a sense of urgency, and no Hall of Fame. There "battle gauntlet" was also absent, if I remember correctly.
But yeah, Sun and Moon. No matter how they do it, I predict there will be a big, final dungeon. Then a last Poké Center you can fly to. Then a series of battles with no healing machines in between (only Items you've stocked up). Then a final battle against an extra-powerful trainer. Then a cutscene before the credits.
Yeah, I really do hope they add a massive area for build up to the final 'test' in the main story as well.
Considering the Pokemon League will be set on Mount Lanakila, which is the Hawaiian word for VICTORY, I can tell Victory Road will be pretty massive (or at the very least it better be massive, its a damn mountain).
The Pokemon League being built after main story for post-game would be a great end to your journey and would make a great post-game story, especially if Gyms are built as well.
Personally I'm hoping we finish the main story around ~55-57 and the Pokemon League jumps up to level 63~75 as you go on, assuming that Gyms are also built. If not, 66~70 for sure.
The fact that the Pokémon League this time seems like an entirely post-game thing makes me think that this game won't follow the usual formula, and that we may actually get credits rolling after the last battle of the main story. They seem to be leaning towards a more usual JRPG approach this time, or at least that's the impression I get.
I'll probably be proven horribly wrong once the game comes out, but here's how I picture the flow of the game: [Somethingsomething Team Skull and Aether]+[Beat trials and Kahunas]--->[Ultra Beasts are released]--->[Protect/Find the Tapus or something in their ruins]--->[You fail, so you have to resort to the box legendary]--->[Find some other ruins to summon legendary]--->[Capture Legendary and take it to that dimensional gate (last stop before point of no return)]--->[Raid Ultra Beast lair]--->[GG Credits Roll]
I'll probably be proven horribly wrong once the game comes out, but here's how I picture the flow of the game: [Somethingsomething Team Skull and Aether]+[Beat trials and Kahunas]--->[Ultra Beasts are released]--->[Protect/Find the Tapus or something in their ruins]--->[You fail, so you have to resort to the box legendary]--->[Find some other ruins to summon legendary]--->[Capture Legendary and take it to that dimensional gate (last stop before point of no return)]--->[Raid Ultra Beast lair]--->[GG Credits Roll]
Cresselia~~
Junichi Masuda likes this!!
New trailer 6 hours ago
Ok, there's nothing new. Just the entire collection of all the train-on videos.
Ok, there's nothing new. Just the entire collection of all the train-on videos.
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It's basically just the Train On series compiled in one video. Still nice.
IIRC, while the "battle gauntlet" was absent from XD, it was actually much, much more brutal in Colosseum.
In Realgam Tower (Controlled by team Cipher), you first go through and fight all four of the admins (separately, not a gauntlet really), and unlock the Realgam Colosseum. In there, you fight 4 trainers in a row, with no heals inbetween. Not even an option to try and use your items. You're thrust straight from one battle into the next. All four of these battles have Shadow Pokemon, but only three or four pokemon for each trainer. You are then given a quick heal, and thrust into a battle with Nascour, who has a level spike of about five levels, and a full team of six. In addition, his team is much, much more brutal. Dusclops, Gardevoir, Blaziken, Xatu, Walrein, and a Shadow Metagross, which is quite a bit worse than the previous teams (which are typed. First team is L45 Porygon2, Zangoose, and a L48 Shadow Miltank, team before Nascour is L48 Cradily and Vileplume, L49 Cacturne and Shadow Tropius. Nascour's mons are all at least level 54, aside from his Metagross, which is 50, and holding a Metal Coat). A fitting final bat-oh wait turns out Nascour isn't the boss, and you have to fight the REAL boss, Evice. He ALSO has a full team of six, Slowking, Scizor, Machamp, Salamence, Slaking, and Shadow Tyranitar. All of them are at least level 60, except for the Shadow Tyranitar, which is level 55. To maker matters worse, Slowking has Skill Swap, so if you're not careful, you could end up with a non-truant Slaking on your hands, and his movesets are all pretty decent. Scizor has Swords Dance and Baton Pass, as well as Silver Wind (Which was physical Gen 3), so it could send some nastiness to another team member. Machamp has EQ (which is huge because all battles are double battles), Rock Slide, and Bulk Up, Salamance has DD, and Slaking has EQ. The only parts of his team that don't really work are Shadow Ball on Slowking, Dragon Claw on Salamance (Comes off of the *slightly* weaker Special Attack, and doesn't benefit from DD), and Thunder and Blizzard on Tyranitar (although Shadow Rush and Rock Slide make up for that). It's an absolutely BRUTAL final battle.
TL;DR 15 level jump from beginning to end, 6 battles, 2 of which are against what might well be champion material in other regions, and only 1 between battle heal during the whole thing.
TL;DR 15 level jump from beginning to end, 6 battles, 2 of which are against what might well be champion material in other regions, and only 1 between battle heal during the whole thing.
.....Yeah, I think it's safe to say Colosseum has one of the most difficult, of not the most difficult ending of a pokemon game, AND your team choice has been limited by available Shadow Pokemon, so you can't just steamroll it all with a ton of really, really good pokemon from elsewhere in the region.
Junichi Masuda and Shigeru Ohmori talk about their top 5 favorite things about Sun & Moon.
Spoiler, they don't reveal anything new (and isn't it a coincidence that they're lists don't crossover and lists the major features they've revealed so far). Still, there is some interesting tidbits:
Junichi Masuda List:
5. Alolan Variants
4. Pokemon Refresh
3. PokeFinder
2. Poke Pelago
1. Rotom Pokedex
Shigeru Ohmori Lists:
5. Poke Rides
4. Festival Plaza
3. Battle Royale
2. Island Trials
1. Z-Moves
Interesting Tidbits:
1. Confirmed Alolan variants are only Gen I.
2. Alolan Forms inspired by Galapagos Islands.
3. Poke Pelago will have a hot spring island which one of its function is helping to hatch eggs.
5. Alolan Variants
4. Pokemon Refresh
3. PokeFinder
2. Poke Pelago
1. Rotom Pokedex
Shigeru Ohmori Lists:
5. Poke Rides
4. Festival Plaza
3. Battle Royale
2. Island Trials
1. Z-Moves
Interesting Tidbits:
1. Confirmed Alolan variants are only Gen I.
2. Alolan Forms inspired by Galapagos Islands.
3. Poke Pelago will have a hot spring island which one of its function is helping to hatch eggs.
It's interesting that Masuda is mostly into things that are immersive and make you feel more attached to your Pokémon and the Alola region whereas Ohmori's top points are mainly about how the game is played and how new and returning players will have something fresh to encounter.
I've had to delete a lot of posts just now. Please don't make one liner posts or use them to spiral out into a long joke. If your post is a single sentence, it's probably not worth posting or worth adding more than a sentence to to better convey your point. I realize the wait is agonizingly tough, but please try to keep the post quality at a reasonable level!
I really like how Alola Forms were inspired by the Galapagos Islands and natural (with some artificial) selection; it reminds me of Unova and Kalos's loose inspiration from other places in the real world besides New York and France. Game Freak needs some vague Japanese influence in each region as well, wouldn't you think?
Potentially, but we won't know for sure until the games come out.
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