First RMT Post. 12 Years since I last played..."Unique Trick Room Team" 1850+

[CAPRICORN 1986]

And For My Last Trick...​

Introduction
As a veteran to the Pokemon Red/Blue Gen I Period (I <3 Kanto). I can see that this generation of competitive battling has fallen from originality with teams that are "cookie-cut" and the redundancy of the same pokemon on every team just shows that trainers aren't capable of thinking outside the box. So I came back to the game after 12 years of hiatus to solve these problems and save the Pokemon Universe one more time. In completing my mission, I chose The #1 Most Difficult Team Strategy to skillfully master in battle.

TRICK ROOM TEAMS
*I am proud to say that after 5 months of studying through Gen III-VI new monsters, abilities, types, items, and etc. That I am confident enough to show forth my proud work. By the way this is my First RMT Post.
​

• Sidenote: No I didn't choose Reuniclus
  
  , Conkeldurr
  
  , Rampados
  
  ,or Porygon 2
  
  . Honestly these four are incredibly impressive but they don't have to be on every trick room for it to be successful. If I am to come back to the battle field after 12 years of retirement, then I'm bringing a fresh new take on what I have witnessed these months.

My Team​

Hercules (Heracross-Mega)

(M) @ Heracronite
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
- Bullet Seed

Earthquake

- Arm Thrust

- Pin Missile

- Rock Blast

-Summary:
Damn it's been a long time old friend and after 12 years of us being separated. We'll celebrate with you evolving into Mega Heracross. Hercules is packing a 515 ATK power base!!! With his Def and Sp Def over 100, he's not a glass house cannon. This guy is a Brick House Cannon with the ability Skill Link, meaning he's dishing out serious consistent blows. He fits well within my trick room team and just slaughters the hell out of wall pokemon hiding behind substitution. His speed is horrendous outside of trick room but is just pure magic when the room is set in place. He's basically the CAPTAIN of my team and was the first monster on the team.

-Role on the team: Physical Sweeper

-Reasons why I chose these 4 moves:

• Earthquake
  
  - I switched to Earthquake over Bullet Seed because I feel that Aegislash isn't a pokemon that I want to switch from. I need to keep up the momentum with Heracross and Aegislash is becoming more prominent in the metagame. I'll just use Pin Missile to take Rotom W out.
  
• Arm Thrust
  
  - STAB coverage and Chansey gets raped really bad. So do a lot of other tank walls.
• Pin Missile
  
  - Pin Missile over Mega Horn. Pin Missile does 5+ more dmg & is 10% more accurate.
• Rock Blast
  
  - I kept running into dragons and this basically solves that problem.

-My 4 moves are super effective against:

12 out of 18

-Weaknesses and my Counter Backup:

• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
• 
  4x
  
  0.5
• 
  2x
  
  .25,
  
  0*
  
  0.5
  
  0.5
  
• 
  2x
  
  0.5,
  
  0.5

-Immune to:
None

Titan (Bronzong)

@ Leftovers
Ability: Heatproof
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room

- Gyro Ball

- Earthquake

- Explosion

-Summary:
When we're talking about a pokemon that goes hand in hand with Heracross. It'll be Bronzong. This Pokemon Resists all of his weaknesses except for fire but I have that undercontroled with setting Titan's ability with Heatproof. Most people get shocked and say why give up levitate? The answer is simple, he's there to support Mega Heracross and everyone always assumes that Bronzong has levitate ability. It's so funny to watch my opponent switch into a fire pokemon and he's thinking that I'm going to switch out. Nope I still carry on and do my Trick Room setup and take the damage and retaliate with Earthquake KOing his pokemon. He's an offensive Bronzong that always gets the job done, especially with him recovering a bit with leftovers.

-Role on the team: Trick Room Setter

& Physical Sweeper

-Reasons why I chose these 4 moves:

• Trick Room
  
  - Mandatory and doesn't need explanation.
• Gyro Ball
  
  - This move is a must. STAB coverage as well. Speed demons & fairies fall to defeat against him.
  
• Earthquake
  
  - When I go against fire pokemon. I just decimate my opponent with Earthquake. Also this move is really good when I go against Aegislash.
  
• Explosion
  
  - When it's all said and done and when Bronzong is at the end of his road. I pull off one more Trick Room and then deliver a damaging blow that my opponent rarely survives from. This sets up for one of my sweepers to just clean up the rest of my opponents team.

-My 3 moves are super effective against:

6 out of 18

-Weaknesses and my Counter Backup:

• 
  2x
  
  0.5,
  
  0*
  
• 
  2x
  
  0.5
• 
  2x None

-Immune to:

• 

Pain (Nidoking)

(M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
- Flamethrower

- Earth Power

- Ice Beam

- Thunderbolt

-Summary:
I remember the exact date I first met you Nidoking. Dec 25th 1998, Christmas morning when I first started my adventure with pokemon blue. Well I'm back and I can't do this without my #1 favorite pokemon by my side. With Trick Room being set up on my team. I can drop the scarf and fully take advantage of Nidoking's wraith and deliver pain to my enemies with Life Orb (Sheer Force ability cancels the recoil damage from Life Orb which is God sent).*Pain is true to his name, just imagine the calculated damage from his SP ATK which is 295 x Life Orb's 33% x Sheer Force's 33%. His speed is slightly below average giving him the extra push that is needed to do his thing on the field. I always deliver at least a 2OHKO sweep. Special walls can't stand to my wide array of move selection at my disposal. Honestly he takes Reuniclus's position on my team and I think he is a better selection than Reuniclus. Also he's immune to Toxic Spikes, Thunderwave, Toxic, slight damage from stealth rock, and volt switch doesn't work on this guy. He may not be the captain of my team but he plays well as the second in command. Plus he's just so damn badass looking (GameFreak just give him a Mega Form and call him NidoGod).

-Role on the team: Special Sweeper

-Reasons why I chose these 4 moves:

• Flamethrower
  
  - Specifically for Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Trevenant, Aegislash, Genesect, Excadrill, and Scolipede (these 8 are so prominent in OU). They fall to the ground with no chance of survival. They can't take the heat and they need to stay the hell out of my kitchen.
  
• Earth Power
  
  - With a STAB added. He just tears through walls like it's no business.
• Ice Beam
  
  - I hate dragons. Overrated and just needs a dish of pain delivered to them. So here is my way of showing my hatred towards them. Dragonite even with multiscale fell from the skies after a delivering blow.
• Thunderbolt
  
  - Thunderbolt is to cover against water threats and when I see that annoying bird Talonflame. Bulky water types have fell to their demise when going against my thunderbolt.

-My 4 moves are super effective against:

12 out of 18
-Weaknesses and my Counter Backup:

• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
  0*
  
• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
  .25
  
  0*
  
  0.5

-Immune to:

• 

Mirage (Malamar)

(M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room

- Superpower

- Night Slash

- Destiny Bond

-Summary:
Fell in love with Malamar the first time I saw this guy. My Malamar, Mirage is the monster you don't want to underestimate. He has the move Trick Room to setup and a below than average speed that gives him a superior edge against foes. With his ability Contrary, which reverses stat losses into stat upgrades (and vice-versa) is what makes him a serious threat to consider. With Mirage's move Super Power dishing out a whopping 120 ATK and boosting 1.5+ ATK and 1.5+ DEF immediately after the attack. He is a physical assault monster that turns into a physical sweeper every turn that he uses superpower. 2/3 of the time, I throw him in when Trick Room is already in play. I put 4 EV into his physical defense because majority of my super effective hits that I take that are Bug is U Turn and the Fairy hits is Play Rough.

-Role on the team: Trick Room Setter

& Physical Sweeper

-Reasons why I chose these 4 moves:

• Trick Room
  
  - Mandatory and doesn't need explanation.
• Superpower
  
  - Delivering a blow of 120 ATK and boosting his ATK and DEF immediately after is a must have move in his movepool.
• Night Slash
  
  - I prefer Night Slash over Psycho Cut in my opinion. With no immunities like Psycho Cut has against Dark type pokemon. Plus 3 of my pokemon are super effected by Ghost type pokemon and 1 other is super effected by Psychic. Night Slash gives coverage against Ghost & Psychic pokemon.
• Destiny Bond
  
  - I have seen others put Flame Thrower or Peck as the last slot against Bug types or Psycho Cut to get a STAB. But hands down, Destiny Bond belongs on Mirage's movepool. First off, he wasn't designed to be a mixed sweeper. So you can throw Flame Thrower out the window. Threats like Genesect, Scizor, and Azumarill are covered with a "Suicide Destiny Trick". Plus Destiny Bond can take out a monster that has raised it's stats to it's max or a monster that can be a force to be reckoned with.

-My 2 moves are super effective against: 7 out of 18

-Weaknesses and my Counter Backup:

• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
  0.5
  
• 
  4x
  
  0.5
  
  0.5

-Immune to:

• 

Selene (Cresselia)

(F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Lunar Dance

- Trick Room

- Magic Coat

- Moonlight

-Summary:
She may not be a fighter but her role is more important than any other member on my team. She buffs an insanely high defense and special defense. Her HP is also very high and she exploits the fact that she can inverse the field with trick room, bounce hazards, recover, and sacrifice herself for either Re-energized Mega Heracross or Re-Energized Nidoking. I typically send her out as a lead to bounce hazards or status inflictions. As I notice that the meta-game has changed over the years. Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Spore, Taunt, & Prank-Wave can hurt any team. Especially on a Trick Room Team, field hazards takes it's toll on switching in and out. So I love to bounce back whatever is being thrown at me. Leftovers attached to keep the constant healing after using other moves or switching in.-Role on the team: Trick Room Setter

& Cleric/Supporter

• Lunar Dance
  
  - With my two main sweepers Mega Heracross and Nidoking not having any recovery moves or recovery items. It's imperative that I find a solution to solve this matter. My Cresselia, Selene solves this problem. Basically I use this move toward the middle/end of the battle (holding onto keeping Mega Heracross and Nidoking alive so they can sweep). I use Lunar Dance right after using Trick Room. So when Mega Heracross or Nidoking comes in. They have 3 Turns to do there thing as getting first priority over my opponent. Nidoking and Mega Heracross are bulky monsters that can take a blow after Trick Room has faded and finish the last blow after the opponent.
• Trick Room
  
  -Mandatory and doesn't need explanation.
• Magic Coat
  
  -This moves solves so many headaches like you wouldn't believe. Threats like Smeargle with Spore, Aerodactyl with Taunt, Klefki with Thunderwave, Ferrothorn with Stealth Rock, Rotom-W with Will-O-Wisp, Skarmory with Spikes and Tentacruel with Toxic can tear into a Trick Room Team and make the entire team fall before the 2nd turn. So Magic Coat really saves the day for me and my prediction isn't rusty after 12 years. ;)
• Moonlight
  
  -I prefer a recovery move over an attack and over a status move as well. I have seen many instances where I have bounced a burn or a toxic back at my opponent. Plus it gives me time to think in many cases on what I should do. I wish that Cresselia had a move like Defog, Heal Bell, or Haze to sometimes reset the playing field from a stat boosted opponent, be more of a cleric to the team, or clean a hazardous field.

-My Cresselia, Selene is a Cleric & Supporter: 0 out of 18

-Weaknesses and my Counter Backup:

• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
  0.5
  
• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
• 
  2x

-Immune to:

• 

Drownpool (Slowbro)

(M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room

- Scald

- Psyshock

- Flamethrower

-Summary:
Slowbro is hands down my favorite water pokemon from Gen I and makes a great asset to my team. Notable for his synergy that works PERFECTLY well with both of my top two sweepers (Mega Heracross and Nidoking). My Slowbro, Drownpool can set up Trick Room and dish out some serious blows. I attached Life Orb to give an extra 33% boost to his SP ATK which is maxed to 328. With his ability Regenerator, I can do some damage and switch out if needed be. So I don't worry about Life orb being attached.
-Role on the team: Trick Room Setter

& Special Sweeper

-Reasons why I chose these 4 moves:

• Trick Room
  
  -Mandatory and doesn't need explanation.
• Scald
  
  - With STAB coverage and a 30% chance to burn my opponent. This move was mandatory.
• Psyshock
  
  - I went with Psyshock because sometimes I may face an opponent like Chansey, Blissey, or another pokemon that is boosting high special defense coverage and I may have to switch it up to defeat them.
• Flamethrower
  
  - I love this move on Drownpool. Most of my enemies sit rest assured to keep out Scizor, Genesect, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Aegislash. Forgetting that this hermit crab can blow not just hot water but flames as well.

-My 3 moves are super effective against: 8 out of 18

-Weaknesses and my Counter Backup:

• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
  0.5
  
• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
• 
  2x
  
  0.5
  
• 
  2x
  
  *0
• 
  2x

-Immune to:
None

IN CONCLUSION
Dissect my team and tell me what you think. Here is a recap on my pokemon's team role.​

• Role on the team: Physical Sweeper
  
  
• Role on the team: Trick Room Setter
  
  & Physical Sweeper
  
  
• Role on the team: Special Sweeper
  
  
• Role on the team: Trick Room Setter
  
  & Physical Sweeper
  
  
• Role on the team: Trick Room Setter
  
  & Cleric/Supporter
  
  
• Role on the team: Trick Room Setter
  
  & Special Sweeper
  
  

***My entire team falls in the UU or NU tier. And I am still able to beat OU. Here is a video where I beat a guy who used only UBER against my team. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-73335306. So NEVER let someone tell you that you can't achieve greatness with your pokemon team.

 

[Srn]

As promised, I am here to rate this team :D

Its really inspiring to see you use UU&NU pokes successfully in OU, especially in a trick room team. However, the most prominent thing that I don't like about this team is its huge weakness to aegislash. Nothing really wants to take its powerful shadow balls and even though malamar can take advantage of its KS, it still can't take a shadow ball itself. Rating this team is a little difficult because I want to stick with the standards you've laid out (no OU), so I can safely recommend bisharp. Instead of malamar, bisharp has immediate power and a threatening knock off, and gets defiant boost on KS to cancel out the drop.
What you can do to make bisharp even more effective is take out gyro ball/earthquake for stealth rocks on bronzong. What this does is it pressures the opponent to use defog, and guess what, you can switch in bisharp and grab a defiant boost, which is threatening even outside of TR. You lose out on a TR setter, but sometimes its not good to be too reliant on TR, and this bisharp gives your team much needed priority. It can even act as a late-game sweeper with SD and sucker punch, which I have found to be very effective on TR teams.

Also, while your team is weak to rotom-w a little, its much weaker to aegislash, so what I would do on mega heracross is bullet seed-->Earthquake This way, you can actually hurt aegislash, which is a gigantic threat, and bullet seed offers pretty redundant coverage outside of hitting rotom-w, which pin missile can do decently anyway.

Other than that, this team is solid. I'm very happy to see a team use several underrated threats on a trick room team and complement each other so well. I hope my changes were able to make this team a little better while keeping its originality. Good luck in the future!

Moveset

Bisharp @ Lum Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

 

[Mr. Munchlax]

The product of five months of a refresher course...this is amazing. Honestly, this team is at the point where I can only give suggestions for alternative solutions, not to improve the team itself. All I have right now is that half of the team is weak to Ghost, which you do not have a switch-in for. Malamar can Revenge Kill under a Trick Room, but perhaps a 'Mon that can actually switch in on a threat like Gengar would help. Snorlax instantly comes to mind, and might make life a lot easier with an Assault Vest set as a physical sweeper would help. Honestly, try it out over whatever you think performs the least on the team.

Snorlax@Assault Vest
Impish Nature
0 Spd IV's
EV's: 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Def
-Crunch
-Reurn(max happiness)
-Earthquake
-Pursuit (to nail the Deoxys in OU)

 

[CAPRICORN 1986]

As promised, I am here to rate this team :D

Its really inspiring to see you use UU&NU pokes successfully in OU, especially in a trick room team. However, the most prominent thing that I don't like about this team is its huge weakness to aegislash. Nothing really wants to take its powerful shadow balls and even though malamar can take advantage of its KS, it still can't take a shadow ball itself. Rating this team is a little difficult because I want to stick with the standards you've laid out (no OU), so I can safely recommend bisharp. Instead of malamar, bisharp has immediate power and a threatening knock off, and gets defiant boost on KS to cancel out the drop.
What you can do to make bisharp even more effective is take out gyro ball/earthquake for stealth rocks on bronzong. What this does is it pressures the opponent to use defog, and guess what, you can switch in bisharp and grab a defiant boost, which is threatening even outside of TR. You lose out on a TR setter, but sometimes its not good to be too reliant on TR, and this bisharp gives your team much needed priority. It can even act as a late-game sweeper with SD and sucker punch, which I have found to be very effective on TR teams.

Also, while your team is weak to rotom-w a little, its much weaker to aegislash, so what I would do on mega heracross is bullet seed-->Earthquake This way, you can actually hurt aegislash, which is a gigantic threat, and bullet seed offers pretty redundant coverage outside of hitting rotom-w, which pin missile can do decently anyway.

Other than that, this team is solid. I'm very happy to see a team use several underrated threats on a trick room team and complement each other so well. I hope my changes were able to make this team a little better while keeping its originality. Good luck in the future!

Moveset

Bisharp @ Lum Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
- Swords Dance

Thank you so much for your take on covering my weakness. Aegislash is a thorn in my side. I will definitely look into Bisharp. As coming back into the game. I love the new designs of these pokemon and Bisharp was amazing looking and I would love to play with this guy. I'll tell you how it goes with play testing it. BTW. I don't mind using OU. I just was looking at how my pokemon came in comparison to others in the tier set. And it was funny to see that I didn't have any OU pokemon.

 

[Ogami]

I would consider Porygon2 as a setter for TR that handles ghost types very well. Porygon2 can also run HP Fire to good effect because it often lures in ferrothorn/scizor/forretress which could be a pain for you to deal with when played smartly. This would go hand in hand with my next suggestion,

I would replace Arm Thrust on Mega-Heracross with Earthquake. You really can't afford to be walled by something as common as Aegislash with Mega-Hera, especially on a TR team where every turn you get is extremely precious. While losing fighting stab may seem ridiculous it is actually pretty redundant with his other moves, is the weakest in BP, and is mitigated by earthquake's coverage. The only thing you are losing out against are skarmory/ferrothorn. Skarmory will always wall you to hell and back, and arm thrust is laughably bad against ferro anyways.


Edit: Also I really love the art for your pokes. Really made the RMT. Nicely done, and pretty solid thought process all around

 

[fish6067]

I've said this before and I'll say it again here. When his speed is taken out of the question, with trick room or sticky web, he is an absolute monster. This sort of team will be scary in gen 6 UU, I think trick room teams could become really popular again. I love the use of UU pokemon, small nitpick that there are no NU pokemon in your team, but there is cresselia, who is RU. As was mentioned above, your team is already pretty solid, so I'll just suggest a couple of small changes. I'd go Close Combat over Arm Thrust on mega heracross because it hits so much harder. As you are using herracross as a kill and switch out pokemon, I don't think the defense drop will hurt too much. I'd also recommend Earth Quake over Bullet Seed. Pin Missile is already OHKOing max defense rotom-w, so bullet seed is only really useful for things like gastrodon and quagsire, which aren't being used a lot at the moment. And your team could appreciate the extra coverage EQ provides, for example against aegislash.

I'm not sure about explosion on bronzong. Explosion got seriously nerfed in gen 5 (if you didn't know it basically got halved in power) so I think it should be replaced by stealth rocks, or if you want to stay really offesive, maybe zen headbutt.

The major weakness of mega heracross is talonflame, and imo you have that covered really well with both slowbro and cresselia. Overall, I think this is a really good team, but your mega heracross set could be just a little better.

 

[SansNickel]

I've said this before and I'll say it again here. When his speed is taken out of the question, with trick room or sticky web, he is an absolute monster. This sort of team will be scary in gen 6 UU, I think trick room teams could become really popular again. I love the use of UU pokemon, small nitpick that there are no NU pokemon in your team, but there is cresselia, who is RU. As was mentioned above, your team is already pretty solid, so I'll just suggest a couple of small changes. I'd go Close Combat over Arm Thrust on mega heracross because it hits so much harder. As you are using herracross as a kill and switch out pokemon, I don't think the defense drop will hurt too much. I'd also recommend Earth Quake over Bullet Seed. Pin Missile is already OHKOing max defense rotom-w, so bullet seed is only really useful for things like gastrodon and quagsire, which aren't being used a lot at the moment. And your team could appreciate the extra coverage EQ provides, for example against aegislash.

I'm not sure about explosion on bronzong. Explosion got seriously nerfed in gen 5 (if you didn't know it basically got halved in power) so I think it should be replaced by stealth rocks, or if you want to stay really offesive, maybe zen headbutt.

The major weakness of mega heracross is talonflame, and imo you have that covered really well with both slowbro and cresselia. Overall, I think this is a really good team, but your mega heracross set could be just a little better.

Seconded. Mega heracross is walled hard by aegislash. Bronzing is kinda interesting, I'm not sure how often you get to use gyro ball / earthquake / explosion. I was thinking if you're going to use explosion you may as well set up rocks too.

 

[Ogami]

In Slowbro's place what about Trevenant with Trick Room?

I love Slowbro to death, but I hate him on TR teams of all places, because when something comes in that can take what he dishes out (which there are quite a few of) all of your momentum is sucked away and that is very detrimental to a trick room team. Trevenant on the other hand is pretty good at keeping up momentum, with the threat of curse/wisp/leech seed, has a decent attack stat and bulk to work with and good stabs, especially shadow claw. It can also run destiny bond to trade quickly and set up one of your sweepers with as many turns in the room as possible. I'm really not sure what the ideal set would be, but it could probably be built with either a bulky setter in mind, using harvest berry shenanigans, or natural cure+rest, but I like the idea of a suicide setter. This would also lessen the number of psychic types you have on the team. While Trev doesn't cover psychic types that well, it can take a similar attacks as slowbro and has the added benefit of being a good switch in to Rotom-W with either natural cure, or a lum berry+harvest build.

Edit: I just noticed your comment about not included Porygon2, but I think you should reconsider on the sole basis that trick room teams can start being pretty ghost weak with two or more psychic types. Your team is definitely no exception. Meloetta could be an interesting choice for it's immunity to ghost, but you retain the horrible weaknesses of that psychic typing. It shouldn't be about conforming or not or anything like that, Porygon2 is a premier trick room setter because the teams really appreciate what he brings to the table as a bulky pivot with the right immunity.

Okay second edit. Had an idea when looking up Trick Room setters that aren't afraid to switch into a ghost type move. Kecleon! It can even set trick room. But it has so many attacking options like so many normal types making a mixed set look really cool. With Life Orb and protean and no investment, Fire Blast kills skarmory/ferrothorn/forretress/scizor, ice beam kills gliscor/landorus and most dragons, thunderbolt rounds out awesome coverage, and drain punch can be used to hurt most things that would take advantage of those moves, ie Heatran, Tyranitar, Blissey and heals back health. A dark move could also be run, and priority would be nice. Maybe Sucker Punch somewhere. Anyways, a lot of options, but I actually love the idea of a mixed Kecleon for trick room to lure out and kill the physical walls that plague Mega-Heracross.

 

[fish6067]

Um no offence , Ogami, but I'm gonna completely disagree with trevenant. Firstly, trevenant is not that good imo. Harvest is so unpredictable and it always screws you over when you need it. For example I've had games where I needed the sitrus berry back, and 3 turns in a row I miss the harvest chance. The lum berry/chesto berry set sounds so good in theory, but in practice again your getting screwed over all the time. Imo the only set he can run decently is a curse stall set, because when he's using protect all the time his chances of staying alive are doubled. But that kinda ruins any offensive momentum you already had and isn't suited for trick room. His sub-seeding set is also to slow for trick room. The biggest problem with it though is that slowbro works really well with herocross because he is anti talonflame. If you replace slowbro with trevenant, not only are you increasing a talonflame weakness that your main sweeper has, you are putting HEAPS of pressure on cresselia to stay alive, otherwise you don't have any good switch ins to talon flame who can take a brave bird OR flare blitz with ease and recover the damage. The fact that the OP doesn't have rocks means this weakness needs to be looked after. Plus, I think the OP wanted 3 trick room setters. Trevenant can't learn trick room, and even if he could he doesn't have room to spare for it.

Kecleon will have a surprise factor, and I think it's pretty cool. People will be like WTF he has a kecleon and it will probably get some kills. It fits in with the surprising nature of the OPs team. However, I think it would have to be actually tested because while it seems good on paper it might be pretty bad in a match. Remember it has base 60 special attack. 60. Otherwise yeah maybe porygon 2 is better if you're worried about ghost types.

 

[Ogami]

figh6067: Hey no offense taken! I was mentioning the harvest sets if the setter needed to have longevity. I completely agree on the fickle nature of those builds, and I haven't looked to one in a while because of what a luck sack you need to be for it to be good. I actually only mentioned it because I was bringing it up as a possible replacement for slowbro, who is himself a tanky setter. That being said, I'm actually not that big of a fan of most tanky tr setters and much prefer tr setters that blow up and trade with stuff quickly. I believe TR teams need to be explosive and fast paced, so that's what I look for in my setters. This is where Trevenant interests me. It brings some similar resistances to the table as slowbro (obviously they are not analogous, but they both can take water/fighting), but can run a much more offensively minded set with TR, stabs and destiny bond. D bond is a great move for a tr setter to have, as the Malamar above shows, but I think it provides much better typing/bulk to the table. The fact that Trev threatens so many different sets, and is good at causing switches, something a set with max attack could really take advantage of.

Oh, and Trevenant definitely learns Trick Room. I use a TR / Horn Leech / Shadow Claw / Destiny Bond set with a sitrus berry to pretty good effect on a doubles team of mine, but I think natural cure with lefties, or maybe even life orb as a better fit for singles.

So, after that long winded statement, I don't really think a harvest set would be beneficial. I do support looking into a natuaral cure set, that allows it to have some utility when not sacrificing itself (if for example, the opponent has multiple water types you need to resist)

I do hear you on the added weakness to Talonflame that Trevenant would bring to a heracross centric team, though. That's the most convincing argument to not consider Trev on this team. Just thought I'd bring up an alternative to a poke that I don't think has the offensive presence or massive utility that I think TR setters need at least one of to work consistently.

If Talonflame is really a problem to this team I would suggest running a Tyranitar set. It's certainly slow and hard hitting enough to be a monster under TR, with awesome mixed capabilities, but more importantly traps the flying types and psychic types that plague Hera when TR isn't up.

As for Kecleon:

0 SpA Life Orb Protean Kecleon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 273-322 (81.7 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Life Orb Protean Kecleon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 359-426 (101.9 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Life Orb Protean Kecleon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Forretress: 614-733 (173.4 - 207%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Life Orb Protean Kecleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 426-504 (120.3 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Life Orb Protean Kecleon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 406-484 (106.2 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Life Orb Protean Kecleon Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 348-421 (97.2 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO I used Mega-Garchomp here as it tends to be the bulkiest dragon that is 4x weak to ice. I don't see enough Zygarde, but they are similar in bulk. Obviously you need to break Dragonites multi scale for ice beam to mean anything against him.

It probobly wouldn't be too bad of an idea to sacrifice some bulk for special attack to insure the ohko's on all of the 4x weak dragons as they are an immediate threat to Kecleon's life. I'm less worried as any move+Fire Blast will 2hko, but it would be nice to have some added power behind that too for ferrothorn that run special defense EVs, of which there are plenty.

I think these calculations speak for themselves. I was skeptical as well about Kecleon's ability to go mixed because of that horrendous base 60 special attack, but it has just the right combination of factors to make it work. First, it has high base power coverage options that are always used to hit things for SE damage, and commonly hitting a 4x weakness. Second, for any physical wall, which are the main draw for using these moves, it hits on their weaker defensive side. Third, Protean is so crucial here. Getting Stab makes the world of difference in these calcs. As an example a fire blast targeting ferro starts at 120 BP, then is multiplied by 1.5 for Protean, by 4 for super effectiveness and then by 1.3 for life orb. 120 x 4 x 1.5 x 1.3 leaves it at an effective BP of 936. Of course that's going to hit hard, even from an uninvested base 60 special attack. The final piece, that makes this all so juicy to me is Kecleon's mystery. Kecleon is seen very much as a physical pokemon, if the opponent even has any idea what to expect at that, and so has all of the opportunity to lure in those walls, especially after showing off a physical move.

I see this then as a threat to Nidoking's job as it provides much of the same coverage, but actually attracts the things it kills. No smart skarm or lando-t is going to stay in on a Nidoking, trick room or not, which could kill a lot of momentum. Trick Room teams are naturally good against most offensively minded teams, so what it needs to focus on having game against are balanced and defensive teams. This is where lures and mixed attackers are so crucial for dealing as much damage as possible while you have the room up. Nidoking is in no way a lure, and so can run into problems when faced by dedicated walls. On top of everything I think Kecleon provides offensively, it also provides a nice ghost immunity for switch-ins that the team we're hear to discuss so desperately needs without a porygon2 or ghost neutral TR setter, and four psychic types (I'm counting malamar hereveven with it's neutrality to ghost, because its shit bulk means that it can't really switch into any high powered ghost moves either). The fact that it can also set Trick Room is just gravy, and for me wins its consideration for any TR team.