I didn't add the guts boost. That boosts attack not base power. Close combat has stab so it's power is multiplied by 1.5. Facade doesn't get stab because machamp is not a normal type. I'm not saying you shouldn't use machamp. I'm saying that if you are going to use him, use him with no guard rather than guts because heracross outclasses him entirely as a guts user while machamp has a niche of being able to abuse no guard.
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Move Facade
- Thread starter Lee
- Start date
- Status
Actually, read the OP,
70x1.5x2
BPxGutsxBoost from Sleep
That is 210 compared to 180 from CC. Bad coverage but higher power, so you're wrong
While it doesn't raise the moves power it obviously raises your attack, which effectively does for that turn. Don't ignore it when it obviously powers you up during that turn.
No, I'm right.
Facade BP = 70x 2 = 140
CC BP = 120x 1.5 = 180
Then you factor in guts which raises your attack. I didn't multiply both attacks factoring in guts because it is unnecessary as both moves are equally affected. You don't lose attack while burned if you have guts. Facade would be more powerful if you didn't have guts but we aren't discussing that.
Yeah just realized that mistake, you're right, but at the same time this could work in a possible RestTalk 2 attacks set (though Ghosts still wall you, not like Ursaring is good anyway)
I remember this convo and I'm pretty sure Sleep activates Guts, but not Facade if you read the move description. If you want the best Guts user then use Conkeldurr, who has no space for Facade anyway. Swallow is probably the best user of Facade, getting STAB and being damn fast on top of it at 125. Oh yeah, it gets Guts too. So if you can somehow absorb a WoW and use a Choice Band that's a mighty strong Facade with Brave Bird for other STAB. Sadly it only has Work Up for boosting it's attack, but there's interesting irony at least in that it can learn Heat Wave and Overheat, giving it a nasty surprise for Aegislash and Skarmory. It can also Roost and U Turn. It's outclassed by Talonflame without Gale Wings but at least it isn't hampered by status as much (even if Talonflame can't be burned) and is only 2 weak to Stealth Rock instead of 4x.
252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 220-259 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 202-238 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
Admittedly they are pretty much the same (using their best and most common sets), with the exception being Gale Wings on talonflame.
Conkeldurr has no space for Facade when using Guts?
Conkeldurr needs Drain Punch always and some combination of Bulk Up, Mach Punch, Knock Off, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch. He needs the super effective coverage to get past certain checks, otherwise he'd always prefer to use Drain Punch because that's what makes him so bulky. Facade doesn't so him any favors because he's so slow and he has better options even with Guts. If he got STAB on it and he was in Trick Room, then there's something different.
How about Mega Pinsir?
Pinsir
Item: Pinsirite(What ever its called)
Ability: Mold Beaker (Aerialate)
Evs: 252 att/4 def/252 Spe
Moveslot
-Facade
-X-scissor
-CloseCombat
-Quick attack
Mega Pinsirs Facade while burned Also benefits him due to Ability Changing Facade into flying type, thus giving Facade a Flying STAB and Super effective damage.
Pinsir
Item: Pinsirite(What ever its called)
Ability: Mold Beaker (Aerialate)
Evs: 252 att/4 def/252 Spe
Moveslot
-Facade
-X-scissor
-CloseCombat
-Quick attack
Mega Pinsirs Facade while burned Also benefits him due to Ability Changing Facade into flying type, thus giving Facade a Flying STAB and Super effective damage.
But its always weaker than Return unless he IS burned, which is not guaranteed, meanwhile Swords Dance powers up everything and compensates for Burn status if it does happen. With Quick Attack there isn't anything faster to burn it (not even Prankster Sableye). It's too situational.
Thought you meant Conkeldurr with Flame Orb, sorry.
I second this, conkeldurr's main selling points are its bulk and recovery drain punch. To use a flame orb just to force a guts boost defeats the point of having 'bulk' anyway, av would be so much better for it, and if it switches in on a status move it's icing on the cake, allowing it to retain 1.5x sp.def while recovering more hp from a boosted drain punch.
I feel that conky is a little hard pressed to use facade, since it wants to run ice punch, mach punch, drain punch and thunder punch/stone edge on its av set...
What about Toxic Orb Zangoose?
Zangoose w/Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Boost
Adamant/Jolly Nature
::Facade
::Night Slash
::Quick Attack
::Close Combat
EV Spread: 252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
I only mention this set because of Sticky Web, which actually allows the base 90 Speed to outspeed a lot after their speed is dropped. I think this thing is totally viable to abuse Facade with this gen
Zangoose w/Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Boost
Adamant/Jolly Nature
::Facade
::Night Slash
::Quick Attack
::Close Combat
EV Spread: 252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
I only mention this set because of Sticky Web, which actually allows the base 90 Speed to outspeed a lot after their speed is dropped. I think this thing is totally viable to abuse Facade with this gen
I've had success on Showdown running Facade on Azumarill faking choice band as my item and using something like Splash Plate.
I wish I could see the look on a Rotom-Wash users face when they go for the Will-O-Wisp thinking they've crippled my Azumarill, only to lose a huge chunk of health. In my eyes, Azumarill certainly has room for Facade in its armory.
I wish I could see the look on a Rotom-Wash users face when they go for the Will-O-Wisp thinking they've crippled my Azumarill, only to lose a huge chunk of health. In my eyes, Azumarill certainly has room for Facade in its armory.
I think talking about Facade/Guts combination is irrelevant here, as that is literally unchanged to what it was before the Facade change.
I am thinking if it could have applications with Pixilate/Aerilate/Refrigerate users, but they usually prefer other moves.
A very gimmicky thing to do could be to use it on Flare Boost Drifblim, which is already gimmicky by itself.
I am thinking if it could have applications with Pixilate/Aerilate/Refrigerate users, but they usually prefer other moves.
A very gimmicky thing to do could be to use it on Flare Boost Drifblim, which is already gimmicky by itself.
are you sure about this? Because if facade ignores the burn reduction before guts is factored in, then that's a considerable boost. In previous gens, burn negates the guts boost, causing it to 0 out. However, if I am interpreting this correctly, then facade ignores the burn reduction, allowing guts to take effect, allowing guts to affect facade while burned...
Ooooor I just misunderstand guts mechanics. I'll escort myself out now.
Facade's mechanics have changed. Last gen, if a Pokemon with Guts was burned, poisoned, or put to sleep, its Attack became +1. Guts ignored the halving of attack from burn.
If a Pokemon without Guts used Facade, it used a 140 BP move that still wasn't powerful because Facade did not ignore the halving of attack.
This gen, Facade ignores Burn's attack halving regardless of whether the user has Guts or not.
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 262-310 (71.9 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 342-404 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 130-154 (38.9 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
I don't know, its speed isn't great, you'd expect something like a mongoose to have more than 100 speed, and without Swords Dance many things can Toxic stall you simply by recovering. Your defenses are also crap, most priority will be the death of you. And Normal is resisted by all defensive Steel types. Sure he has access to Knock Off, Close Combat and elemental punches but even those are showing to not pull their weight without Swords Dance. It'd probably kick ass in NU though.
That... looks no different from Zangoose during the past 2 gens. What exactly has changed?
I think this is a good place to post this. The facade buff is a dream come true for Snorlax. Here is the post i just posted in the Underrated Set thread
Ok guys seriously I believe CurseLax is back. And I know what you are thinking, "Oh look its this post again", but for cereals I had great success on the OU ladder using CurseLax and a team that can support it.
There are 2 reasons why CurseLax is real good this generation
1) The fighting type nerf. Been discussed to death but its true. Fighting types are far less prevelant in OU and the ones that are around are much more easily checked because of Fairies and Talonflame
2) The Facade buff. Yes the minor Facade buff it receives that makes burns no longer half the attack stat when using the move. This is crucial because this allows Snorlax to EASILY set up on Rotom W and make him a liability for your opponents team. The pure power that a +2 Status'd Facade from a Snorlax is absolutely outstanding. Curselax always had a problem and worry of getting burned after it's intial rest. But now Snorlax is the ultimate status absorber.
EV Spread: 252 HP, 252 Special Defense, 4 attack
Nature: Careful
Ability: Thick Fat
Item: Chesto Berry
Facade/Return/Body Slam
Earthquake/Crunch
Curse
Rest
Here it is folks, the most terrifying set of the second generation remix'd. Its is strongly advised that you wait til late game to try to sweep with this. You could pull it off early depending on your opponents team but late game after all potential counters are gone it is absolutely devastating. Facade is strongly the most recommended STAB move out of the 3 because of the small buff it receives and guarantees you will be able to set up on essentially anything special attacker without worry. Rotom W and Rotom H absolutely cries at this set because its ability to absorb all their attacks and will-o-wisp and destroy as a result of a 210 bp facade. If you are worried about the 70 base power though as a result of not being status'd you can go Return or Body Slam. Return has the power, but Body Slam allows Snorlax to have another role as the Special Wall team supporter who can spread paralysis
Earthquake is the coverage move of choice as it gives Snorlax strong coverage overall. Crunch is another strong option so it isnt walled hard by Skarmory and Gengar. Dark also has great coverage overall this gen. But beware that Tyranitar and Bisharp laughs at this set if you are running Crunch. Both are viable options just build your team around to support which ever move it has.
Hands down the best partner for this set is Talonflame. Talonflame is the best friend Snorlax has been waiting generations for. It can easily revenge kill or scare out fighting types AND take out the number one enemy of this set Skarmory and Gengar. Azumarill is another good choice because it can dispatch huge fighting threats such as Infernape, Terrakion, Conkelldurr etc etc.
Checks and Counters: Obviously fighting types are the first to come to mind. Until you dispatch them they can stop the boosting and sweeping at will. Skarmory is also enemy number one as it is untouched by Norma/Ground and doesnt care much for Crunch and can whirlwind Snorlax out. Rest of the counters depends on your coverage move. Without Earthquake Tyranitar and Bisharp are problems but without Crunch Gengar is a big problem. Build your team with this in mind and you should be successful
Overall thoughts: Fun to use and enjoyable to sweep with. Snorlax may not be top tier, but this set has been absolutely devastating with the right team support and I highly recommend it
Ok guys seriously I believe CurseLax is back. And I know what you are thinking, "Oh look its this post again", but for cereals I had great success on the OU ladder using CurseLax and a team that can support it.
There are 2 reasons why CurseLax is real good this generation
1) The fighting type nerf. Been discussed to death but its true. Fighting types are far less prevelant in OU and the ones that are around are much more easily checked because of Fairies and Talonflame
2) The Facade buff. Yes the minor Facade buff it receives that makes burns no longer half the attack stat when using the move. This is crucial because this allows Snorlax to EASILY set up on Rotom W and make him a liability for your opponents team. The pure power that a +2 Status'd Facade from a Snorlax is absolutely outstanding. Curselax always had a problem and worry of getting burned after it's intial rest. But now Snorlax is the ultimate status absorber.
EV Spread: 252 HP, 252 Special Defense, 4 attack
Nature: Careful
Ability: Thick Fat
Item: Chesto Berry
Facade/Return/Body Slam
Earthquake/Crunch
Curse
Rest
Here it is folks, the most terrifying set of the second generation remix'd. Its is strongly advised that you wait til late game to try to sweep with this. You could pull it off early depending on your opponents team but late game after all potential counters are gone it is absolutely devastating. Facade is strongly the most recommended STAB move out of the 3 because of the small buff it receives and guarantees you will be able to set up on essentially anything special attacker without worry. Rotom W and Rotom H absolutely cries at this set because its ability to absorb all their attacks and will-o-wisp and destroy as a result of a 210 bp facade. If you are worried about the 70 base power though as a result of not being status'd you can go Return or Body Slam. Return has the power, but Body Slam allows Snorlax to have another role as the Special Wall team supporter who can spread paralysis
Earthquake is the coverage move of choice as it gives Snorlax strong coverage overall. Crunch is another strong option so it isnt walled hard by Skarmory and Gengar. Dark also has great coverage overall this gen. But beware that Tyranitar and Bisharp laughs at this set if you are running Crunch. Both are viable options just build your team around to support which ever move it has.
Hands down the best partner for this set is Talonflame. Talonflame is the best friend Snorlax has been waiting generations for. It can easily revenge kill or scare out fighting types AND take out the number one enemy of this set Skarmory and Gengar. Azumarill is another good choice because it can dispatch huge fighting threats such as Infernape, Terrakion, Conkelldurr etc etc.
Checks and Counters: Obviously fighting types are the first to come to mind. Until you dispatch them they can stop the boosting and sweeping at will. Skarmory is also enemy number one as it is untouched by Norma/Ground and doesnt care much for Crunch and can whirlwind Snorlax out. Rest of the counters depends on your coverage move. Without Earthquake Tyranitar and Bisharp are problems but without Crunch Gengar is a big problem. Build your team with this in mind and you should be successful
Overall thoughts: Fun to use and enjoyable to sweep with. Snorlax may not be top tier, but this set has been absolutely devastating with the right team support and I highly recommend it
Um, what about miltank? :o
She gets scrappy and can milk drink to recover from damage.
Stoutland gets it too ^.^
Though focusing on pokes with guts is probably a better strategy.
Edit: OMG GUYS! GUYS! What about Swellow?!
Its already fast with base 125 speed, but if you add guts, and flame orb, and facade would that not give our speedy bird a niche? ^.^
Ironically enough it gets scrappy too.
She gets scrappy and can milk drink to recover from damage.
Stoutland gets it too ^.^
Though focusing on pokes with guts is probably a better strategy.
Edit: OMG GUYS! GUYS! What about Swellow?!
Its already fast with base 125 speed, but if you add guts, and flame orb, and facade would that not give our speedy bird a niche? ^.^
Ironically enough it gets scrappy too.
The Facade buff (ignoring Burn's attack drop) doesn't matter for Guts Pokemon, can we please move on from them? That being said, I feel like monoattacking Scrappy Facade could be interesting but ultimately shortlived. There's too many bulky Steel- and Rock-types in OU for it to work. Miltank gets Power-Up Punch (for Facade/PUP/Milk Drink/???), but you'd need a LOT of boosts to really do something with that.
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