DPP Latias (Full OU Revamp)

TAY

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I will be writing the analyses for Latias in OU. However, before I get to any actual writing I need some help smoothing out the sets. Latias has a ridiculous number of viable moves, and its high defenses and speed make it difficult to come up with a "standard" EV spread. I have attempted to do so myself, but needless to say I have not used every Latias set.

In my eyes, every viable Latias set can be broken down into six base sets, and those are the ones included here. Feel free to say why you think one should be add / removed / changed; these were the sets that I encountered during the test that worked. The comments included are not the set comments, just my thoughts on the set, and what I think needs the most attention.

So here it is:

------------------------------------


[SET]
name: Defensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Recover
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Reflect / Refresh / Hidden Power Fire / Substitute
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 148 HP / 108 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This is easily the most common and probably the most effective all-around Latias set. With a monstrous base 130 Special Defense and a decent 80 base HP, Latias is extremely difficult to take down with any sort of Special Attack, and Reflect gives it the ability to take hits from the physical side of the spectrum. 110 base Speed allows Latias to use these defense boosting moves in the faces of its would-be counters, making it an incredible pain to KO. And as if that were not enough, even without maximum EVs, Latias’ base 110 Special Attack is nothing to laugh at, especially considering that its STAB Dragon Pulse is only resisted by one type.</p>

<p>While Reflect is the recommended option to ensure that Latias is not take down early by Tyranitar or Scizor carrying Pursuit, Latias’ other options for its fourth moveslot should not be overlooked. Refresh allows Latias to not fear status, making it a fantastic switch-in to common status users such as Blissey and Zapdos and allowing it to laugh as it sets up Calm Minds on both. Both Substitute and Psycho Shift could also be used to avoid status, but Substitute does not allow Latias to switch into status attacks, and Psycho Shift will fail if the opponent’s Pokemon is already afflicted by a status condition. Since Scizor is the most used Pokemon in the game and is a huge threat to Latias, Hidden Power Fire can also be used to quickly take it out. This will also give Latias a powerful attack against other common switch-ins such as Metagross and Bronzong. Unfortunately, Hidden Power Fire causes Latias to lose a speed point, allowing Gengar and other Latias to come in and deal a hefty blow; Reflect and Refresh are also useful against a larger number of Pokemon. Substitute is also a decent option for the last slot, as it will not only allow Latias to scout for Pursuit users, but also block status from things like Celebi and Rotom.</p>

<p>There are a number of viable EV spreads for this set. The one listed will allow Latias to take 4 consecutive Seismic Tosses and survive, making it much easier to set up on Blissey. If you want to use a true “Defensive Latias” set, a much more bulky spread can be used: 148 HP / 204 Def / 128 SpA / 28 Spe with a Bold nature. The 28 Speed will allow Latias to outrun any Scizor, Metagross, or Adamant Gyarados and use Reflect; 128 Special Attack is needed to 2HKO the standard 148 / 0 Blissey after six Calm Minds; and the rest is thrown into Defense. This set will never take more than 55% damage from CB Scizor’s U-Turn with Reflect up, and it will never even take 33% damage from CB Tyranitar’s Pursuit under the same conditions.</p>

<p>If you are not worried about Gengar and other Latias, you can drop your Speed in order to boost Special Attack: 148 HP / 184 SpA / 176 Spe, still with a Timid nature. This EV spread will still allow Latias to outspeed all base 100 Speed Pokemon, as well as any Modest Latias, and it will easily 2HKO most Blissey after six Calm Minds.</p>


[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Surf
move 4: Recover / Grass Knot / Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The previous Calm Mind set is certainly useful; however, it does not carry much raw power in its attacks until it has a few Special Attack boosts under its belt. This set becomes extremely powerful with just a single Calm Mind, capable of OHKOing Gyarados, Bold Zapdos, and Scizor after Stealth Rock damage even with a Timid nature (though the chance is significantly higher with Modest). Furthermore, every Pokemon in OU besides Empoleon will be 2HKOed at worst. With a lot more attacking power, this set is much more capable of dealing with its counters than the defensive Calm Mind set: with 252 HP Tyranitar taking a minimum of 60% from Timid Latias’ +1 Surf, it is unlikely that it will be able to switch in more than once.</p>

<p>Offensive Calm Mind Latias is very simple to use. Simply bring it in on one of the many Pokemon which cannot hurt it badly, use Calm Mind, and sweep. If Latias’ HP gets to low then you can have it Recover off the damage.</p>

<p>Recover is far and away the best choice for the last moveslot, since with 296 Special Defense Latias is still more than capable of taking special hits. However, there are more damaging options if you wish to increase Latias’ offensive potential. Grass Knot will always 2HKO 252 / 0 Choice Band Tyranitar with no boosts, so with a bit of prediction you can get that counter out of the way quickly. Additionally, Modest Latias has about a 65% chance of OHKOing that same Tyranitar with a +1 Grass Knot when it switches into Stealth Rock damage. Hidden Power Fire provides a guaranteed OHKO against Scizor, and allows you to OHKO both Skarmory and Metagross after a Calm Mind boost (a Modest nature is necessary in the latter case). However, take note that Hidden Power Fire will lower Latias’ speed by one point, ensuring that it will lose to an opposing max speed Latias. Hidden Power Fighting is also an option if you really need to take down Tyranitar, but it also reduces Latias Speed, and Grass Knot is almost as effective.</p>



[SET]
name: Life Orb + Three Attacks
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Life Orb Latias takes the destructive power of the Choice Specs set and combines it with the ability to freely change attacks; although at the cost of some power and ten percent of Latias' health after each attack. Draco Meteor is Latias' strongest attack, capable of dealing 75.00% - 88.54% to max HP Zapdos, a OHKO when factoring in Stealth Rock damage. Draco Meteor even does 38.89% - 45.68% to min HP Heatran.</p>

<p>Surf pairs perfectly with Draco Meteor, giving Latias almost unresisted type coverage. Even with sandstorm boosting Tyranitar's massive Special Defense, a Timid Life Orb Surf will deal 39.11% - 46.53% with max HP. If Latias predicts correctly and Surfs on the turn Tyranitar switches in, it can 2HKO Tyranitar before it has the chance to retaliate, factoring in Stealth Rock damage. Surf also deals 43.11% - 50.90% to max HP Scizor, a 97% chance to 2HKO if Scizor has taken Stealth Rock damage.</p>

<p>Thunderbolt deals with the few threats that don't mind taking Draco Meteor or Surf; namely, Suicune, Vaporeon, and especially Empoleon. Thunderbolt 2HKOes all the aforementioned Pokemon while providing Latias with another attack to hit Steel-types for neutral damage if it predicts incorrectly. Thunderbolt has the added advantage of KOing min HP Salamence, without resorting to the Special Attack lowering Draco Meteor, if it has switched into Stealth Rock twice.</p>

<p>Timid secures all the OHKOes or 2HKOes that Modest accomplishes after Stealth Rock is taken into account, meaning Timid is almost always the superior option. With a Timid nature, Latias can switch in on Infernape, utilizing its resistances to Fire and Fighting, and KO it with Surf before it has the chance to launch another attack. It also allows Latias to outspeed all Salamence (except those with Choice Scarf) and KO them with Draco Meteor.</p>


[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Trick / Recover
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With Choice Specs Salamence being a huge pain with 110 Special Attack and 100 Speed, it only makes sense that Latias would be even more annoying with 10 more base Speed points and greatly improved Special Defense. Draco Meteor will put a giant dent in nearly everything; even Heatran, which usually runs Naïve to combat Outrage, will take at least 50% even if Latias is Timid. Paired with a Dragon-type attack, Surf hits everything in OU besides Empoleon for at least neutral damage, and that neutral damage is enough to 2HKO any of the Steel-types which resist Latias’ STAB Dragon attacks, excepting Bronzong.</p>

<p>Dragon Pulse is a page right out of Specs Salamence’s book, allowing Latias to sweep late game once its counters have been weakened by Draco Meteor. Even though Latias has access to several other, differently typed special attacks, none of them will give an extra 2HKO or OHKO on anything significant. Grass Knot is an option if you want to score a 2HKO on maximum HP and Special Defense Tyranitar and a OHKO Swampert, the latter being able to do some damage with Ice Punch or Avalanche, but overall it has poor coverage. If you want a guaranteed 2HKO on Bronzong, as well as OHKOs on Scizor and Forretress, then you can use Hidden Power Fire, but Latias will lose a Speed point and will become vulnerable to both Heatran and Tyranitar. Latias' STAB Psychic may also seem like a good choice, but it has poor coverage and will often result in Latias being trapped by Tyranitar, Scizor, or Weavile.</p>

<p>Trick allows Latias to deal with Blissey and Snorlax, both of which have proven to be major problems for Choice Specs Salamence; and it is also a great move for dealing with Steel-types. However, if your team is prepared to deal with those threats, then Recover is a nice little trick against players who like to switch around to weaken Latias with Sandstorm or status, and is generally useful for giving Latias a sort of “second wind.”</p>

<p>Whether you choose Modest or Timid is really a matter of what you need Latias to do for your team. Modest makes it a much better wall breaker, since, when using a 140 base power attack with STAB, a 10% increase in Special Attack translates to a good deal more damage. If you need Latias to perform as more of a late game sweeper, then Timid is the better choice, as it will allow Latias to outspeed most things that try to revenge kill it.</p>


[SET]
name: Utility
move 1: Thunder Wave / Roar
move 2: Reflect / Roar
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Recover / Wish
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 112 SpD / 28 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While it is unlikely that Latias will replace Blissey as the quintessential special wall, Latias does the job very well, and it claims a number of tricks that Blissey cannot. The most notable of these are Reflect and Roar - the former makes Latias incredibly difficult to take down, while the latter lets Latias abuse its high defenses to shuffle the opponent’s team through entry hazard damage.</p>

<p>What move you use in the first slot is really a matter of your team’s needs. Thunder Wave is the primary option since this set will presumably be used on a typically slow stall or balanced team, but Roar is just as viable and, if you are running a stall team or you lack a phazer, Roar is probably the superior choice. Roar is the second option again in the second moveslot since Reflect is not absolutely necessary, but Reflect is generally the superior choice since no defensive team wants its special wall taken out early game by a Tyranitar or Scizor. Wish is also an option on Recover if you want to pass the healing around your team, but Latias becomes a lot easier to take down without instant recovery, so play cautiously in that case.</p>

<p>The EVs for this set are designed to maximize Latias’ capabilities as both a supporter and a special wall, while giving it enough physical defense to take some powerful hits. 28 Speed EVs will allow Latias to outpace Metagross or Scizor and put up Reflect, and max HP with 112 Special Defense EVs and a Calm nature allows Latias to never be 2HKOed by Modest Scarf Heatran’s Dragon Pulse, even after Stealth Rock damage. The rest is used to bolster Latias’ unremarkable Defense stat. If you want your Latias to better handle physical attacks, switching to a physically defensive EV spread is not a problem: simply move all the Special Defense EVs into Defense and give Latias a Bold nature.</p>

[SET]
name: Dual Screen
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Wish
move 4: Roar / Dragon Pulse / Safeguard
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Latias is perfect for pseudo-passing, with access to both screens and Wish. The fact that most players will expect a sweeper set and switch out is also helpful. The strategy here is to set up Reflect and Light Screen on a foe that is likely to attack, and then pass those defensive boosts to either a stat-up Sweeper or a Baton Passer. Wish will ensure that whatever comes in next will start out with full health, and Roar will both prevent your opponent from setting up while you set the screens and allow you to search for a better Pokemon to send your sweeper or Baton Paser out against.</p>

<p>Dragon Pulse (or even Draco Meteor) is an option over Roar if you want Latias to be able to attack directly, or if you fear being Taunted. However, this set’s primary goal involves being a team player, and staying in to attack is often a waste of the eight turns of screens. Still, you should not be afraid to let Latias receive its own Wish, as this will allow it to possibly set up screens again later in the match for a second sweeper or another Baton Pass. Safeguard can also be used to protect your sweeper as it switches it and sets up; however, it is often redundant to pass this to a Baton Passer since it will likely know Taunt and / or Substitute anyway.</p>


[SET]
name: Psycho Shift
move 1: Psycho Shift
move 2: Trick
move 3: Recover
move 4: Dragon Pulse / Surf
item: Flame Orb
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>It may seem funny to use Flame Orb on something without Guts, but I assure you, this set is no joke. Almost all of the usual Latias counters cannot switch into Psycho Shift; in fact there are very few Pokemon in the game that appreciate being burned. Almost any offensive team is going to have a lot of trouble taking this down, as their standard physical Latias counters (Tyranitar, Metagross, Scizor) are all outsped and burned by Psycho Shift. When playing a stall team, Tricking a Flame Orb to an opposing Blissey or Celebi will cut its durability in half, allowing you to easily take it down with your other Pokemon.</p>

<p>Running so much Defense on a set that abuses Burns may seem odd, but it is necessary to prevent damage from Tyranitar and Scizor. Even when burned, Adamant Choice Band Crunch and U-Turn will do about 50% to Latias, and while Latias does have Recover, it is a good idea to keep your health as high as possible. Additionally, Latias’ naturally high Special Defense allows it to take special hits better than most Pokemon, even with no EV investment.</p>

<p>Using the primary options from this set, the only Pokemon that can switch into this set safely is Heatran. Using Surf instead of Dragon Pulse will remedy this, but it will cause Latias to lose the great neutral coverage from Dragon Pulse; Surf should be used only if your team fairs poorly against Heatran.</p>


[Other Options]

<p>Psycho Shift is a decent option on any of the sets besides Choice Specs. Opponents will frequently try to take down Latias with Poison or Paralysis, and Psycho Shift is a great way to turn the tables on any team that employs this strategy. Beware, though, as Psycho Shift will not clear your status if the foe is already afflicted by a status of their own, so it is probably not a good idea to have Latias take a Thunder Wave or Toxic from something that is already paralyzed or poisoned.</p>

<p>Latias has access to both Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, which complement each other nicely. However, Ice Beam is almost totally redundant due to Latias’ STAB Dragon Pulse, and Thunderbolt has pretty lackluster coverage by itself. Still, if your team has trouble with Gyarados or Empoleon, you may want to try out Thunderbolt, as it is Latias’ best option against both of those foes.</p>

<p>Latias’ STAB Psychic can sometimes be useful to deal with Fighting-types such as Machamp and Heracross, and its neutral damage is the same as that of Dragon Pulse. However, Psychic has notoriously poor type coverage, and it makes Latias even more vulnerable to the already troublesome Tyranitar and Scizor. Surf or Hidden Power Fire are almost always more useful, since they deal reasonable damage to the Steel-types that frequently switch into Latias.</p>

[EVs]

<p>On the offensive sets, you should always use either 252 or 176 Speed EVs. The former will outspeed anything with lower Speed than Latias, and will allow Latias to Speed tie with other Latias and Gengar. The latter will allow Latias to outspeed any base 100 Speed Pokemon, and will give you some extra EVs to improve Latias’ attacking power or its bulk. If your Latias is Modest, it should be given at least 204 Speed EVs to outrun +Speed Lucario and Porygon-Z. 252 Speed EVs can also be used, but the only even remotely common Pokemon this will really allow you to outspeed is Electivire.</p>

<p>The defensive sets should always run at least 28 Speed EVs. This allows Latias to outspeed any Metagross or Breloom, as well as Adamant Gyarados. If you are using a specially defensive set, then 112 Special Defense EVs with a Calm nature will let Latias switch into Stealth Rock and take two Dragon Pulses from Modest Heatran. On a physically defensive set, your best bet is to simply max out Latias’ HP, put 28 points in Speed, and everything else into Defense, as Latias’ Special Defense is high enough that Latias can easily take a Special hit even without any EV investment.</p>

[Opinion]

<p>Latias is in no way a Pokemon to be taken lightly. With excellent all-around stats, two powerful STAB attacks which are only resisted by one type, and a huge usable movepool, Latias is both an offensive and defensive powerhouse. Although it generally does not have the unpredictability of mixed sweepers such as Salamence and Infernape, Latias more than makes up for it with its superior overall defenses and its far superior Speed stat. Latias is the only bulky Pokemon in OU with over 100 base Speed, a title previously held only by Garchomp.</p>

<p>Latias’ biggest pitfall is its weakness to Dark- and Bug-type attacks. It is very difficult for Latias to avoid being taken out or at least crippled by Choice Band Tyranitar, and Scizor’s U-Turn will force Latias to switch out and its switching effect will likely give the opponent the upper hand. Reflect can handle this to an extent, but Latias will still likely lose more than half its health against either of these Pokemon even with Reflect up, unless it is running a very defensive EV spread.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Tyranitar is Latias’ single greatest counter. Only the Specs set even has a chance to 2HKO Tyranitar, and if it invests in Special Defense then Latias cannot 2HKO without Grass Knot. Even if you feel uncomfortable switching Tyranitar in for fear of a Surf, it can easily revenge kill any Latias with Pursuit.</p>

<p>Scizor is probably the second most popular Latias counter. While it cannot switch into Surf or Hidden Power Fire, the majority of Latias do not run either run only a Dragon-type attack or Choice Specs, meaning that Scizor can often come in and U-Turn or Pursuit while taking under 30% damage.</p>

<p>Just about any Steel-type Pokemon can easily switch into Latias, as long as it is careful to avoid Hidden Power Fire or a Choice Specs Surf. Metagross is especially good among these, since its powerful physical attacks and decent Special Defense will usually force Latias to switch or be KOed. Metagross can also use Pursuit to take out Latias even if it switches.</p>

<p>Blissey makes an excellent counter to almost any Latias set, either by taking it out with Toxic or by crippling it with Thunder Wave to let a teammate finish the job. Anything with high Special Defense and Toxic, such as Vaporeon or Cresselia, can beat Latias similarly. However, if Latias is using Refresh, then these Pokemon will be nothing but set-up bait, so it is strongly recommended that you pack an additional counter. Blissey also must watch out for Trick coming from the Choice Specs set.</p>

<p>Latias does not enjoy taking Ice Shards, as they hit its weaker Defense stat and bypass its excellent speed. Still, Latias cannot be OHKOed by any Pokemon’s Ice shard, so if you are revenge killing with Mamoswine or Donphan be sure it has taken some prior damage.</p>
 
The Psycho shift set is a gimmick. It's been discussed over and over on Cresselia, and Latias shouldn't do it either.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
Besides that, perhaps mention Trick as an option on the Choice Specs set, in the last slot, which is basically filler?
 

TAY

You and I Know
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Alright I fixed the item on the Specs set and added trick as an option.

I would like some more input before removing the Psycho Shift set, mainly because it is much better at running the set than Cresselia due to 110 Base Special Attack and access to Surf. The 110 Speed is also a huge deal, since even with only a small EV investment Latias can shift in front of things like Tyranitar, Scizor, and Metagross which commonly switch into it (Cress is typically outsped and takes massive damage from all three).
 
I'm just as excited for this as you are TAY!!!! Anyway, here are my suggestions (don't worry, I played Suspect Test quite often before it got boring!)

[SET]
name: Defensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Recover
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Refresh / Substitute / Reflect
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 128 HP / 128 SpAtk / 252 Spe
I would limit this sets options to those three, and add additional moves in the set comments. Bolded the EVs because I think there was a better spread floating around.

[SET]
name: Offensive Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Surf
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
This set is fine without the hidden powers; you don't need them. Just mention that Timid is necessary speed, but Modest gives Surf a good chance to 2HKO Max HP Tyranitar switching in. Surf also should do the same for Scizor.

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Dragon Pulse / Psychic
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
Forgot to switch the item, buddy! lol. You don't need Grass Knot or Hidden Power Fire on this set. Surf 2HKOs Tyranitar and Scizor with Modest nature, and those to attacks are bad on a Choice set anyway. Use the third slot for a lategame sweeping STAB. Dragon Pulse for Neutrality, or Psychic for hitting things like Machamp super effectively, which opens up greater coverage since you already have everything neutral with your first two moves. Also, list Trick as the final slot for Blissey.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Thunder Wave / Toxic
move 2: Recover
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Reflect / Charm / Wish
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 112 SpD / 28 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
I would explain the EVs. Also list an alternate spread in EV spread, since Latias can run a physical defensive set well also since she can be a threat to Gyarados. I would call the set just "support" since that what it is. Anyway, a status move is necessary along with Recover so those should be first. Dragon Pulse as the attack, and the final slot could be wish support for the team or Reflect / Charm for Pursuit protection.

[SET]
name: Dual Screen
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Wish
move 4: Draco Meteor / Roar / Recover
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
This set is fine. I thought Latias got Momento but I discovered that its Latios... so expect people to abuse Momento in the third slot with him :-D.

[SET]
name: Psycho Shift
move 1: Psycho Shift
move 2: Recover
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Trick / Surf
item: Flame Orb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 112 SpD / 28 Spe
If you want to know the truth... this set looks gimmicky IMO.

So those are my suggestions. Also requesting to add my set that Panamaxis and Legacy Raider were using on the ladder:

[SET]
name: Draco Shift
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Psycho Shift
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 152 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Will fill this in at some point. </p>
 

Bass

Brother in arms
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For the offensive CM set, I think Grass Knot may deserve to be slashed next to Surf, if not mentioned in the set comments if you are running Hidden Power Fire that is. Grass Knot coming off of +1 Max SpA Modest Latias with Life Orb has a 92% chance of OHKOing the standard 176 HP / 0 SpD CB Tyranitar with Stealth Rock factored in. This leaves you without any attacks to hit Heatran with, but that doesn't matter too much as Heatran can't really do anything back besides Dragon Pulse or Exploding, nor will it usually switch-in to Latias as most of them carry Surf.

This set is fine without the hidden powers; you don't need them. Just mention that Timid is necessary speed, but Modest gives Surf a good chance to 2HKO Max HP Tyranitar switching in. Surf also should do the same for Scizor.
I disagree, I think having a Hidden Power, especially on the this set, is very necessary. Being able to OHKO several Tyranitar variants after a Calm Mind is useful in itself, but I think Hidden Power Fire provides essential type coverage. Without it, you are at the mercy of Scizor (who can survive a +1 Surf) as well as a few other steels like Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross.

I would even go so far as to say that Recover should be mentioned third instead of first in this slot since the purpose of this set is to sweep. Recover is only really helpful against Blissey, who will beat you anyway if it has Toxic, and the speed drop isn't that big of a deal as you will still outspeed Infernape, which Latias is an excellent switch-in to. You won't be able to tie other Latias and Gengar, but I think having better coverage with Hidden Power is certainly worth the slight loss in speed.

Also TAY, I am more than willing to help you write the Set Comments for the Offensive CM set as I have used it throughout the Suspect test, so I have a lot of experience with it.
 

Legacy Raider

sharpening his claws, slowly
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For the Defensive Calm Minder, TAY, I think I suggested some random EV spreads in your old RMT:

148 HP / 108 SpA / 252 Spe was the first one, in which Latias' speed is kept maxed. What the extra HP EVs do is let it survive 4 consecutive Seismic Tosses when taking Leftovers into account (148 EVs give you a stat of 338; 338 + 3 x (1/16 x 338) = 401). This would be much more helpful when going 1 vs 1 against a Blissey as you would not have to Recover every other turn. But this set does lose out on the guaranteed 2HKO on Blissey at +6, which is why I personally preferred this next set.

148 HP / 184 SpA / 176 Spe puts Latias' speed at 330, guaranteeing it outspeeds base 100s. The HP EVs once again let it survive the 4 consecutive Seismic Tosses, and the extra SpA is easily enough to let it take down Blissey at +6. I don't really see the point in EVing to outspeed Infernape, as it can do jack all to Latias anyway. And Gengar will always come down to a speed tie if it is running Timid, and you will still beat Modest ones with this spread. Latias tends to beat Gengar 1 on 1 anyway because of its massive SpD, and after a boost it takes 53.8 - 63.9% from Timid LO Shadow Ball, 41.4 - 49.7% from a non-LO Shadow Ball, and do 90.8 - 106.9% back. So you can see, you really don't need to outspeed it, and the extra HP I feel is definitely worth it.

Also,

RaikouLover said:
So those are my suggestions. Also requesting to add my set that Panamaxis and Legacy Raider were using on the ladder:

[SET]
name: Draco Shift
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Surf
move 3: Psycho Shift
move 4: Recover
item: Life Orb
nature: Modest
evs: 152 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> Will fill this in at some point. </p>
I can attest to the efficacy of this set. Makes a great mid game sweeper who can really take a hit.
 
Originally Posted by Bass
I disagree, I think having a Hidden Power, especially on the this set, is very necessary. Being able to OHKO several Tyranitar variants after a Calm Mind is useful in itself, but I think Hidden Power Fire provides essential type coverage. Without it, you are at the mercy of Scizor (who can survive a +1 Surf) as well as a few other steels like Jirachi, Bronzong, and Metagross.

I would even go so far as to say that Recover should be mentioned third instead of first in this slot since the purpose of this set is to sweep. Recover is only really helpful against Blissey, who will beat you anyway if it has Toxic, and the speed drop isn't that big of a deal as you will still outspeed Infernape, which Latias is an excellent switch-in to. You won't be able to tie other Latias and Gengar, but I think having better coverage with Hidden Power is certainly worth the slight loss in speed.
Well, the reason you don't need Hidden Power and Grass knot is that the most common Scizor set lacks recovery and Tyranitar just doesn't have recovery... so instead of Calm Minding and HAVING to OHKO both of them, you could just Surf on your first appearance and 2HKO them, which you can do with a Modest nature which is what I said. That way, even if they switch out and come in later, you can Calm Mind and beat them. A Modest max special attack Life Orb Surf does 46-54% to Max HP Scizor and does 44-52% to a Max HP Tyranitar. Furthermore, Surf loses no coverage AND you can add recover making Latias a good Heatran counter at the same time as being a sweeper!
 

Jibaku

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I want to get something straight. Will there be two analyses for Latias? One for OU and one for Uber? Because IMO if you have on analysis with both OU and uber it might get messy (judging from the word revamp in the title)
 

Lutra

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I want to get something straight. Will there be two analyses for Latias? One for OU and one for Uber? Because IMO if you have on analysis with both OU and uber it might get messy (judging from the word revamp in the title)
I think it would make sense to have analyses relevant to pokemon in an individual metagame - instead of crossing between metagames. Because as you said, things get messy, specifically the counter section.
 

TAY

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I want to get something straight. Will there be two analyses for Latias? One for OU and one for Uber? Because IMO if you have on analysis with both OU and uber it might get messy (judging from the word revamp in the title)
There really, really should be two. But does that mean that we start doing separate Uber pages for Blissey, Jirachi, etc?

Also, thank you, everyone! I think I have enough information to do the write-ups now (that doesn't mean stop commenting =P ), so I should have them up sometime tomorrow afternoon or evening.
 
a simple way, in my opinion, is to just list all OU sets first and then the uber ones. Then do the same in opinion/counters. It'll be big, but easy to understand, at least. Just an idea.

Anyway, I think Draco Meteor shouldn't be in any set that is made to support. Too low PP for a set that doesn't have to do damage in the first place, unless I'm missing something.
 
I think the primary EV spread for the Defensive CM set should be, well, more defensive. At the moment, there is little separating it from the Offensive set, IMO. Maybe you could give it this:

Bold Nature
96 HP / 252 Def / 128 SpA / 32 Spe

This is the most effective spread. You keep the power for Blissey, but you have more walling capabilities. The Speed EVs allow you to outrun Jolly Breloom and Metagross, as well as Adamant Gyarados. Another 24 EVs allow to outrun Adamant CB Heracross, but I don't see too many of them anymore. That's my opinion.
 
I'm not so sure.. althought it IS defensive Calm Mind, it still wants to be fast... especially faster than its Dragon counterparts. Timid is pretty much the only way to go if you ask me. Outspeeding Metagross is completely irrelevant if you can't touch it...:-P
 
Well, if you want it to outrun its counterparts, we might as well run for 286 (Dragonite) or 301 (Salamence.) They're either at those Speeds or faster than 350 due to DD.

Also, HP Fire is still an option, so Metagross isn't totally stopped :p
 

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I think it would make sense to have analyses relevant to pokemon in an individual metagame - instead of crossing between metagames. Because as you said, things get messy, specifically the counter section.
This is something I've proposed before and it's been rejected sadly. Latias is really a key player in Ubers though, so I think we seriously need to adopt this.

Same thing for UU.

I agree with RL on pretty much everything he has said.
 

TAY

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As I said before, I will be mentioning a more defensive EV spread in the set comments. As RL said, even the "defensive" calm minder does best with max speed to beat all the base 100 speeders and, probably most importantly, other Latias. You're fooling yourself if you think that a large number of games won't come down to Lati vs Lati speed battles.

Anyway, it isn't that a very defensive set would be bad; in fact it's pretty damn powerful, which is why I will be discussing it in set comments. It is just that the set with max speed is better, and is therefore the primary option.
 

Jimbo

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SpA > SpAtk in all instances.

Sorry I can't be of much content help, I wasn't able to participate in the Latias test at all :( However I can help with grammar once the analysis is written up if you need it, TAY.
 
I'll look more indepth at the thread later, but I think a Charm set will has its uses as most switch-ins are physical.

Or perhaps this is best in the other options section?
 
Wish could be put on the utility set. It pretty much outclasses Dragonite, only you don't have Heal Bell. Investing heavily in SpD would probably be better than any for Def, seeing as you might aswell just use Salamence then. 252 HP / 4 SpA / 220 SpD / 28 Spe

What are those four Special Attack EVs doing there? Guarantees you OHKO - natured Flygon with Dragon Pulse after Stealth Rock. Might aswell throw that in.

For the defensive Calm Minder, I can't seem to come up with a better set than Legacy Raider's second one. You could slash Choice Scarf next to Choice Specs, as that is a unwelcomed surprise that does loads of damage.

Is a Life Orb sweeper viable at all? It has Recover to heal off damage, great speed, good coverage, great Special Defense.

Timid 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Dragon Pulse / Thunderbolt / Surf / Recover

You can great coverage, hitting every Pokemon at least neutrally. I don't see the point in tieing with Gengar seeing as many are Scarfed and you aren't OHKOed anyway. This hits 72.70% of the metagame, coming from X-Act's Coverage chart. Also to be noted, neutral nature, 84 Atk EVs let's you 2HKO 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey with Outrage.
 
The Psycho shift set is a gimmick. It's been discussed over and over on Cresselia, and Latias shouldn't do it either.
A "gimmick" that completely undermines a number of her counters. Flame Orb Cressy is the most useful Cressy set I've seen and I'm quite eager to play with Flame Orb Latias. With Roost/Recover Latias would not be burdened by three turns of Rest unlike Cresselia.

I've had a lot of experience with Flame Orb Cressy and she's a beast, one can only wonder how Latias will do.

When the Flame Orb is gone she can act as a good status absorber being able to Psycho Shift things right back at the opponent. Also... Flame Orb is really the only item that can pretty much keep all Trickers in check. If they Trick it, they get burned and do less damage to you if they are physical based. After all is said and done if you have Trick and are done with Psycho Shift you can Trick it to a Blissey, Celebi or another one of their walls to make life difficult for them. Since Latias is fast she will be able to outrun things like non Scarfed Mence and hit them before they do anything. Not to mention if you have to switch something on Breloom and your Psycho Shifter is already burned you can send that in. The only thing that'll really give you problems whilst Psycho Shifting is Heracross, but still it doesn't like taking 12.5% per turn and if you've got decent prediction you'll do fine. It seems very gimmicky on paper, but its a solid startegy that will provide long term benefits in battle. PS Cressy has never failed to qualify me for the suspect qualifications, I can't wait to use PS Latias in Standard.

Latias needs to be careful though since she is not as bulky as Cresselia she might not be able to survive as long spreading the burns around. In such an offensive metagame Bold might be needed. I mean you want to survive things like Ttar's CBed Crunch after you burn it.
 
so basically your wasting 3 moveslots for trick,recover and psycho shift and totally still walled by blisssey
 
so basically your wasting 3 moveslots for trick,recover and psycho shift and totally still walled by blisssey
The Flame Orb is really annoying for Blissey. Yes, she has Natural Cure, but she will be burned again next time she switches in. Add in the fact that she has no leftovers recovery and then potential entry hazard damage, she won't last long. Not to mention that she can't do squat back...

The Flame Orb set should definitely be on the analysis. It screws over too many common switchins to be left out.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Charm may seem like a good idea, but I'd stay away from it simply becuase of Clear Body Metagross.
 

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