Double Team and Minimize:Broken or Uncompetitive?

[alexwolf]

I made this thread 'cause it seems that the community is very divided on this matter.

So i want to know what is everyone's opinion about the moves Double Team and Minimize.
Do you think that these 2 moves were banned because they would break the metagame or because they would make it too much luck-based?

Also if you believe that they were banned for breaking the metagame,do you believe that they would break the majority of the pokemons that get it or the minority?(I am talking about relative majority and minority,so for example 35 pokes are the majority for OU)

And if they break the minority which would ideally be the best course of action for you?Banning the moves or banning each broken abuser of the moves?

 

[charizard24]

Do you think that these 2 moves were banned because they would break the metagame or because they would make it too much luck-based?

- I think that they were banned because they were unhealthy for the metagame in general. Accumulated boosts would make those pokemon near invincible in the long run. All it would take is for RNG to be on their side. And with a 66.6% miss rate it wouldn't be too hard for something with a Sub+Double Team to sweep.

To answer you're question, it would be both unhealthy for the metagame because of the luck factor and potentially broken on some pokemon such as Blissey/Gengar/Starmie (Minimize). I'm not even mentioning the fact that evasion boosts could then be Baton Passed to various more threatening pokemon.

Also if you believe that they were banned for breaking the metagame,do you belive that they would break the majority of the pokemons that get it or the minority?

- Considering that Double Team is almost as widespread as Substitute is on most pokemon. No, it would likely not break Bidoof and Rattata's. It would outright break a minority of pokemon. However that minority is significantly higher than i make it out to be. Arguably 20-30 pokemon could be broken with if granted ideal situations. Double Team Multiscale Roost Dragonite, Double team (insert threat here) would all be up for grabs. Anything with Double Team now has a chance to outright sweep and that is wrong.

And if they break the minority which would ideally be the best course of action for you?Banning the moves or banning each broken abuser of the moves?

- Minority is a very subjective term. We have 649 pokemon. In that sense, even if 50 pokemon were broken with Double Team it would ideally be the minority and banning what might be the entireity of OU seems ridiculous to me. So i would still have banned the evasion boosting moves and nothing else.

Double Team and Minimize:Broken or Uncompetitive?
Both.

 

[jas61292]

Oh god, I love these discussions. Personally, I do not believe they are either broken or uncompetitive. Well, actually, I might concede that Minimize, with the boost it got this gen, could be considered broken on certain Pokemon, but the more prevalent Double Team, in my opinion, is neither broken nor uncompetitive.

To be honest, the only reason they are banned nowadays is really tradition. In gen 1, the only moves that could really be guaranteed to hit a DT Pokemon was Swift. Anyone who was not worried about Swift could DT with no problem, and with a little luck would destroy everything.

Nowadays, there are much stronger sweepers, meaning that the right Pokemon only need to get one lucky hit to stop the DTer cold. Additionally, there is a huge variety of never missing moves, such as Aura Sphere. There are also other ways to destroy DT strategies, such as Haze (which was in gen 1 too), Clear Smog, and Blizzard/Thunder in their appropriate weather.

To be quite honest, while unbanning these moves would certainly change the meta, they are not so good that they would dominate. Moves to counter them would become more popular, and after a while people would realize that it is not worth a move slot on most Pokemon.

Double Team is not at all broken or uncompetitive. It is a legitimate strategy, but with many major flaws. The only reason it is banned at all is because people remember gen 1 before it was banned, and they don't want to have to deal with it. If it was any other reason, it would have gotten a test this gen, but it didn't. I'm not saying I mind this, but in reality, the reason they are banned nowadays has nothing to do with their strength in the current game.

So to answer your questions:

Are they Broken? probably not, though it is impossible to tell since they were never tested
Are they uncompetitive? nope. Competitiveness in my opinion is about a players drive to win. If they are using these moves in an attempt to win, and not just to troll, then they are no less competitive than any other move.
Do they break individuals? Maybe, though I doubt it. Once again though, no test means we will never know.
And do they break the majority? Hell no. "Tyranitar used Double Team. Lucario used Aura Sphere. Tyranitar fainted." Switch Tyranitar out for any Pokemon and there will be a decent counter.

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

Oh god, I love these discussions. Personally, I do not believe they are either broken or uncompetitive. Well, actually, I might concede that Minimize, with the boost it got this gen, could be considered broken on certain Pokemon, but the more prevalent Double Team, in my opinion, is neither broken nor uncompetitive.

To be honest, the only reason they are banned nowadays is really tradition. In gen 1, the only moves that could really be guaranteed to hit a DT Pokemon was Swift. Anyone who was not worried about Swift could DT with no problem, and with a little luck would destroy everything.

Nowadays, there are much stronger sweepers, meaning that the right Pokemon only need to get one lucky hit to stop the DTer cold. Additionally, there is a huge variety of never missing moves, such as Aura Sphere. There are also other ways to destroy DT strategies, such as Haze (which was in gen 1 too), Clear Smog, and Blizzard/Thunder in their appropriate weather.

To be quite honest, while unbanning these moves would certainly change the meta, they are not so good that they would dominate. Moves to counter them would become more popular, and after a while people would realize that it is not worth a move slot on most Pokemon.

Double Team is not at all broken or uncompetitive. It is a legitimate strategy, but with many major flaws. The only reason it is banned at all is because people remember gen 1 before it was banned, and they don't want to have to deal with it. If it was any other reason, it would have gotten a test this gen, but it didn't. I'm not saying I mind this, but in reality, the reason they are banned nowadays has nothing to do with their strength in the current game.

So to answer your questions:

Are they Broken? probably not, though it is impossible to tell since they were never tested
Are they uncompetitive? nope. Competitiveness in my opinion is about a players drive to win. If they are using these moves in an attempt to win, and not just to troll, then they are no less competitive than any other move.
Do they break individuals? Maybe, though I doubt it. Once again though, no test means we will never know.
And do they break the majority? Hell no. "Tyranitar used Double Team. Lucario used Aura Sphere. Tyranitar fainted." Switch Tyranitar out for any Pokemon and there will be a decent counter.

the quality of being competitive in regards to pokemon is reducing the luck factor and increasing the skill factor; advocating the use of evasion moves does the opposite of this and is therefore uncompetitive.

whether it is broken or not is another debate.

as for whether it is easily countered or not, aura sphere's distribution is ass, and the majority of the viable users are in ubers. to be perfectly frank, NP lucario is pretty shit in comparison to its SD set, mienshao is better off with HJK and togekiss is rarely seen. thunder and blizzard are weather reliant and the latter is rare.

 

[alexwolf]

My answers in bold.

Do you think that these 2 moves were banned because they would break the metagame or because they would make it too much luck-based?

- I think that they were banned because they were unhealthy for the metagame in general. Accumulated boosts would make those pokemon near invincible in the long run. All it would take is for RNG to be on their side. And with a 66.6% miss rate it wouldn't be too hard for something with a Sub+Double Team to sweep.
While it is true that a pokemon with multiple boosts is very hard to kill,how is a poke going to find all these free turns anyway?
If you just spam DT the opponent will more likely hit you and have enough chances to kill you before you become unkillable most of the times.
And what matters in that sentence is the 'most' part.I know very well that DT can 'cause messy situations with no way to play around the sitaution,but will this happen in most situations?
'Cause in smogon only the reliable and competitive strategies get used.So even if DT allowes easy wins sometimes, it still makes you lose in most situations,statistically.So a competitive player would never rely on such an unreliable strategy most of the times.
And i am saying most,because a few pokes may actually be broken in most cases with DT.I cannot know for sure but it is a fair assumption.

To answer you're question, it would be both unhealthy for the metagame because of the luck factor and potentially broken on some pokemon such as Blissey/Gengar/Starmie (Minimize). I'm not even mentioning the fact that evasion boosts could then be Baton Passed to various more threatening pokemon.
So you belive that it was banned for both reasons..Ok!

Also if you believe that they were banned for breaking the metagame,do you belive that they would break the majority of the pokemons that get it or the minority?

- Considering that Double Team is almost as widespread as Substitute is on most pokemon. No, it would likely not break Bidoof and Rattata's. It would outright break a minority of pokemon. However that minority is significantly higher than i make it out to be. Arguably 20-30 pokemon could be broken with if granted ideal situations. Double Team Multiscale Roost Dragonite, Double team (insert threat here) would all be up for grabs. Anything with Double Team now has a chance to outright sweep and that is wrong.
When i am talking about minority and majority i am talking about competitive majority and minority.I am talking for the top 60 or 70 pokes that see the top use in OU.Someone may disagree with the number,as it is quite arbitary,but the main point is the same.
Everyone will agree that the number of pokes which will be used to count the minority and the majority from will be at least the whole OU,and at most all the OU viable pokes.
Also you say that arguably 20 or 30 pokes would become broken in ideal sitauations...Would you mind giving some examples?

And if they break the minority which would ideally be the best course of action for you?Banning the moves or banning each broken abuser of the moves?

- Minority is a very subjective term. We have 649 pokemon. In that sense, even if 50 pokemon were broken with Double Team it would ideally be the minority and banning what might be the entireity of OU seems ridiculous to me. So i would still have banned the evasion boosting moves and nothing else.
I explained above that i was talking about the 'competitive' minority.So if the relevant pokes are the OU pokes with a number of 50 for example the minority would be 24 pokes or less.
So if only 24 pokes were broken with it what would you ban?

Double Team and Minimize:Broken or Uncompetitive?
Both.

 

[Challenger]

It's broken and uncompetitive, and it shouldn't even be in discussion, imo.

The suspects thread had more than one person who wanted to unban Brightpowder.


The only reason anybody wants these moves in is to abuse hax, because that's what these moves do. Since the majority of damage in this game comes from the ability to 3HKO, 2HKO, or 1HKO, having a turn where your ice beam or bullet punch misses is just dumb.

As someone said, I can take MS D-Nite, Double team on turn one, then roost fishing for a miss, then double team again....

It's just not competitive, and I can tell you from playing the actual game, when the E4 guy had his Muk use minimize and stall out my whole team, that it makes battling WORSE.

 

[Joel]

Do I personally think Double Team/Minimize is broken? No, not even close.

I actually battle versus DT/Minimize on a near daily basis on wi-fi GBU battles (a very nice place where stuff doesn't get banned, and things still aren't broken). I don't use them myself because they are so easy to beat that it's near comical when I see an opponent use them. (Why would I want to lose a battle for myself by using them?)

Take for example a theoretically broken w/ DT Poke...Multiscale D-nite.

I switch to Metagross, D-nite +1 evasion.

Metagross used Bullet Punch (still very likely to hit). Break Multiscale. D-nite either DT's again, or Roosts to keep Multiscale.

Next turn, D-nite either tries to stall with DT after Roost, or depends on +2 evasion and fails to KO w/ E-quake/Fire Punch/Fire Blast. Metagross uses Ice Punching v. +2 evasion w/ Multiscale broken if there was no Roost.

Very likely to still KO. If it misses, well, so does Focus Blast and Stone Edge w/o evasion. Shit happens.

If it isn't broke...Don't fix it. DT/Minimize isn't broke.

 

[jas61292]

the quality of being competitive in regards to pokemon is reducing the luck factor and increasing the skill factor; advocating the use of evasion moves does the opposite of this and is therefore uncompetitive.

This, in my opinion, is a biased and incorrect argument. Uncompetitive =/= luck based. However there was an entire thread on this a few months ago, and I don't feel like going back to that. The point is, just because something increases luck does not mean it is uncompetitive. You might not like it, but just as uncompetitive =/= luck based, things that annoy people =/= uncompetitive.

as for whether it is easily countered or not, aura sphere's distribution is ass, and the majority of the viable users are in ubers. to be perfectly frank, NP lucario is pretty shit in comparison to its SD set, mienshao is better off with HJK and togekiss is rarely seen. thunder and blizzard are weather reliant and the latter is rare.

And this here is the ignorant point of view that causes non broken things to get banned (well at least close to banned, I think we have done a good job this gen of avoiding that). Sure, in the current metagame those Pokemon migt not be the best, and you might not think them to be good, but if they stop a top threat, then they are good no matter what you think of them.

If A counters B, and B is good, then A is good. If you don't like A, well that is unfortunate, but you don't ban B because you don't feel like using its counters.

 

[alexwolf]

Oh god, I love these discussions. Personally, I do not believe they are either broken or uncompetitive. Well, actually, I might concede that Minimize, with the boost it got this gen, could be considered broken on certain Pokemon, but the more prevalent Double Team, in my opinion, is neither broken nor uncompetitive.

To be honest, the only reason they are banned nowadays is really tradition. In gen 1, the only moves that could really be guaranteed to hit a DT Pokemon was Swift. Anyone who was not worried about Swift could DT with no problem, and with a little luck would destroy everything.

Nowadays, there are much stronger sweepers, meaning that the right Pokemon only need to get one lucky hit to stop the DTer cold. Additionally, there is a huge variety of never missing moves, such as Aura Sphere. There are also other ways to destroy DT strategies, such as Haze (which was in gen 1 too), Clear Smog, and Blizzard/Thunder in their appropriate weather.

To be quite honest, while unbanning these moves would certainly change the meta, they are not so good that they would dominate. Moves to counter them would become more popular, and after a while people would realize that it is not worth a move slot on most Pokemon.

Double Team is not at all broken or uncompetitive. It is a legitimate strategy, but with many major flaws. The only reason it is banned at all is because people remember gen 1 before it was banned, and they don't want to have to deal with it. If it was any other reason, it would have gotten a test this gen, but it didn't. I'm not saying I mind this, but in reality, the reason they are banned nowadays has nothing to do with their strength in the current game.

So to answer your questions:

Are they Broken? probably not, though it is impossible to tell since they were never tested
Are they uncompetitive? nope. Competitiveness in my opinion is about a players drive to win. If they are using these moves in an attempt to win, and not just to troll, then they are no less competitive than any other move.
Do they break individuals? Maybe, though I doubt it. Once again though, no test means we will never know.
And do they break the majority? Hell no. "Tyranitar used Double Team. Lucario used Aura Sphere. Tyranitar fainted." Switch Tyranitar out for any Pokemon and there will be a decent counter.

I agree with you for the most part except for the uncompetitive question.
So for example if those moves were allowed into play they wouldn't dominate and the pro players would quickly realize that in most cases there are better options but what about the new players?
The new players could win more easily with that kind of strategies since the wouldn't win a lot anyways.So why not bang on luck and try to win even a few matches by getting lucky?
In a competitive community the more skilled player should win the less skilled player,but with DT and Minimize that won't be the case since even very good players could lose on some few occasions.

 

[jas61292]

Ok, I am just going to put this bluntly:

If there is a threat in the metagame, and you lose because you do not have a counter, then you deserve to lose.

I don't care what the counter is. But if you are not going to prepare something, then you have no right to complain that what you lost to is broken. So if anyone is losing to Double Team in a meta where it is allowed, then either they had no counter and thus they deserve to lose, or they had one and got outplayed, in which case the opponent deserves to win. If you think otherwise, then your logic is flawed.

 

[Joel]

I agree with you for the most part except for the uncompetitive question.
So for example if those moves were allowed into play they wouldn't dominate and the pro players would quickly realize that in most cases there are better options but what about the new players?
The new players could win more easily with that kind of strategies since the wouldn't win a lot anyways.So why not bang on luck and try to win even a few matches by getting lucky?
In a competitive community the more skilled player should win the less skilled player,but with DT and Minimize that won't be the case since even very good players could lose on some few occasions.

Good to know someone can see it the way I do, and say it a lot better than I did.

 

[alexwolf]

Ok, I am just going to put this bluntly:

If there is a threat in the metagame, and you lose because you do not have a counter, then you deserve to lose.

I don't care what the counter is. But if you are not going to prepare something, then you have no right to complain that what you lost to is broken. So if anyone is losing to Double Team in a meta where it is allowed, then either they had no counter and thus they deserve to lose, or they had one and got outplayed, in which case the opponent deserves to win. If you think otherwise, then your logic is flawed.

The matter is that some things just don't have enough viable counters.

Also you seem to believe that if a strategy or a poke has counters that makes it non broken or uncompetitve which is not true.
Kyogre gets countered by Gastrodon but it is still Uber.
Evasion raising moves get countered by some 100% htting moves and by some other few moves but this doesn't necessarily mean that they are not broken or uncompetitive.
Also most 100% hitting moves don't even counter DT users as they are really weak and cannot hit them hard enough to prevent them from doing what they are supposed to do.
So for example what are these shitty moves(except Aura Shpere) going to do against a Scizor or a Dragonite or an Excadrill or an /insert anything not weak to Electric/Fighting/Grass/Flying/Ghost.
Not to mention that for a counter to matter it has to be viable.It must have other uses other than just countering one move or one poke.
If you look at every OU pokes they all have multiple uses and don't focus only in one aspect.
And that's exactly what the always hitting moves do.So you can't really call them viable counters.

 

[Joel]

The matter is that some things just don't have enough viable counters.

Also you seem to believe that if a strategy or a poke has counters that makes it non broken or uncompetitve which is not true.
Kyogre gets countered by Gastrodon but it is still Uber.
Evasion raising moves get countered by some 100% htting moves and by some other few moves but this doesn't necessarily mean that they are not broken or uncompetitive.
Also most 100% hitting moves don't even counter DT users as they are really weak and cannot hit them hard enough to prevent them from doing what they are supposed to do.
So for example what are these shitty moves(except Aura Shpere) going to do against a Scizor or a Dragonite or an Excadrill or an /insert anything not weak to Electric/Fighting/Grass/Flying/Ghost.
Not to mention that for a counter to matter it has to be viable.It must have other uses other than just countering one move or one poke.
If you look at every OU pokes they all have multiple uses and don't focus only in one aspect.
And that's exactly what the always hitting moves do.So you can't really call them viable counters.

Hey guy.......You missed this, didn't you?

Do I personally think Double Team/Minimize is broken? No, not even close.

I actually battle versus DT/Minimize on a near daily basis on wi-fi GBU battles (a very nice place where stuff doesn't get banned, and things still aren't broken). I don't use them myself because they are so easy to beat that it's near comical when I see an opponent use them. (Why would I want to lose a battle for myself by using them?)

Take for example a theoretically broken w/ DT Poke...Multiscale D-nite.

I switch to Metagross, D-nite +1 evasion.

Metagross used Bullet Punch (still very likely to hit). Break Multiscale. D-nite either DT's again, or Roosts to keep Multiscale.

Next turn, D-nite either tries to stall with DT after Roost, or depends on +2 evasion and fails to KO w/ E-quake/Fire Punch/Fire Blast. Metagross uses Ice Punching v. +2 evasion w/ Multiscale broken if there was no Roost.

Very likely to still KO. If it misses, well, so does Focus Blast and Stone Edge w/o evasion. Shit happens.

If it isn't broke...Don't fix it. DT/Minimize isn't broke.

And don't bother telling me it's running a Sub 'cus that would only leave one moveslot for an unboosted Atk (probably Outrage).

 

[charizard24]

While it is true that a pokemon with multiple boosts is very hard to kill,how is a poke going to find all these free turns anyway?
If you just spam DT the opponent will more likely hit you and have enough chances to kill you before you become unkillable most of the times.
And what matters in that sentence is the 'most' part.I know very well that DT can 'cause messy situations with no way to play around the sitaution,but will this happen in most situations?
'Cause in smogon only the reliable and competitive strategies get used.So even if DT allowes easy wins sometimes, it still makes you lose in most situations,statistically.So a competitive player would never rely on such an unreliable strategy most of the times.
And i am saying most,because a few pokes may actually be broken in most cases with DT.I cannot know for sure but it is a fair assumption.

Yes, nost of the time the DT user will not get enough evasion boosts to make a significant impact on the game. However there are situations as you said when it can and will happen. After the first DT everything is up in the air. Especially if you use a move like Stone Edge or Hydro pump and expect to hit. Also, there are other ways of boosting up. For one thing, a pokemon such as Celebi can switch in on a Politoed, force it out and gain 1 DT in the process and based on how the next turn goes, it can either KO the switch in or get lucky and set-up another DT. Another way would be to use a Substitute and then DT and then sub and then DT.

While its true that these strategies might not be used by most people on Smogon. Things like Sub+DT on the right pokemon (namely hard hitters) can be a very game defining thing. Remember, Garchomp was banned on part due to the 20% miss chance that turned te flow of the entire match.

Also, even more frightening is the prospect of Baton Passing these boosts. It would be relatively simple to use a Jolteon lets say, Sub then DT then sub again until a miss then DT and so on and so forth until it gets to +6 and is behind a Sub. Then all it has to do is Baton pass to anything that can set-up and start sweeping. I dont know about you but i dont want to face +6 Evasion Terrakions and Latios.

When i am talking about minority and majority i am talking about competitive majority and minority.I am talking for the top 60 or 70 pokes that see the top use in OU.Someone may disagree with the number,as it is quite arbitary,but the main point is the same.
Everyone will agree that the number of pokes which will be used to count the minority and the majority from will be at least the whole OU,and at most all the OU viable pokes.
Also you say that arguably 20 or 30 pokes would become broken in ideal sitauations...Would you mind giving some examples?

Understood, the variables are only in OU. As for the 20-30 pokemon thing, i have no idea how many 'real' abusers there will be but it certainly wont be hard for something that can learn Double Team to take advantage of it especially with a Sub or sth. Double Teaming Latios/Thundurus etc. Practically everything in OU learns it. That is the main problem and that is why its different from things like Sand Veil and Snow cloak that are available to a small number of pokemon that are not broken with the ability.

The examples in the previous paragraph were only offense related. I can imagine an even worse scenario with defensive mons. Double Teaming Blissey/Chansey/Porygon2/Skarmory/etc. Any pokemon with 1) Reliable recovery 2)Great walling stats and 3) with a set of Substitute/Double Team/Recovery move/Attack move can theoretically sweep. And the strategy would be reliable as well. Considering that these pokemon are so hard to kill in the first place it would not be difficult to set-up. Blissey for example can set-up on all special attackers and then keep DTing until a miss and/or get a sub then sweep.

It is because of things like these that Evasion is uncompetitive and thus banned.

I explained above that i was talking about the 'competitive' minority.So if the relevant pokes are the OU pokes with a number of 50 for example the minority would be 24 pokes or less.
So if only 24 pokes were broken with it what would you ban?

Of course i would ban Evasion moves. 24 pokemon is HUGE. That would double the size of the Uber list in just a day. And i really wouldnt want to have to argue with people on the brokenness of each and every suspect with double team and have to face the same arguements again and again. Not to mention the pokemon banned would theoretically be things like Blissey and Skarmory. Defensive mons which are nowhere near to threatening without the move.


EDIT: @Joel

Take for example a theoretically broken w/ DT Poke...Multiscale D-nite.

I switch to Metagross, D-nite +1 evasion.

Metagross used Bullet Punch (still very likely to hit). Break Multiscale. D-nite either DT's again, or Roosts to keep Multiscale.

Next turn, D-nite either tries to stall with DT after Roost, or depends on +2 evasion and fails to KO w/ E-quake/Fire Punch/Fire Blast. Metagross uses Ice Punching v. +2 evasion w/ Multiscale broken if there was no Roost.

To comment on that particular scenario, if D-Nite had Roosted turn 2 then Ice Punch would'nt KO. Secondly, what would have happened if Ice Punch missed? Dragonite could Roost again then DT again and so on and so forth and win. It's blatantly easy to use. You would have had the match-up won if Ice Punch connected and yet because of Double Team it didn't and you lost. I dont think that's right in anyway. If it only happens like 20% of the time then it might be acceptable but having the ability to boost up indefitely to the point at which it becomes near invincible is staggering.

Also, a smart person would have Subbed turn 2 and then kept subbing for a miss and Roosting eventually boosting with DT when you get the chance. In that scenario, Dragonite will always win.

Very likely to still KO. If it misses, well, so does Focus Blast and Stone Edge w/o evasion. Shit happens.

How can you even compare Stone edge/Focus Blast to Evasion. They have nothing in common at all. Those are moves that have less than 100% accuracy and so miss on those basis and evasion is a stat boost that can potentially make it so that 100% moves only hit 33.3% of the time. I shudder to think what would happen if you tried to use Stone Edge on that Dragonite over and over again....

 

[Joel]

Yes, nost of the time the DT user will not get enough evasion boosts to make a significant impact on the game. However there are situations as you said when it can and will happen. After the first DT everything is up in the air. Especially if you use a move like Stone Edge or Hydro pump and expect to hit. Also, there are other ways of boosting up. For one thing, a pokemon such as Celebi can switch in on a Politoed, force it out and gain 1 DT in the process and based on how the next turn goes, it can either KO the switch in or get lucky and set-up another DT. Another way would be to use a Substitute and then DT and then sub and then DT.

While its true that these strategies might not be used by most people on Smogon. Things like Sub+DT on the right pokemon (namely hard hitters) can be a very game defining thing. Remember, Garchomp was banned on part due to the 20% miss chance that turned te flow of the entire match.

Also, even more frightening is the prospect of Baton Passing these boosts. It would be relatively simple to use a Jolteon lets say, Sub then DT then sub again until a miss then DT and so on and so forth until it gets to +6 and is behind a Sub. Then all it has to do is Baton pass to anything that can set-up and start sweeping. I dont know about you but i dont want to face +6 Evasion Terrakions and Latios.



Understood, the variables are only in OU. As for the 20-30 pokemon thing, i have no idea how many 'real' abusers there will be but it certainly wont be hard for something that can learn Double Team to take advantage of it especially with a Sub or sth. Double Teaming Latios/Thundurus etc. Practically everything in OU learns it. That is the main problem and that is why its different from things like Sand Veil and Snow cloak that are available to a small number of pokemon that are not broken with the ability.

The examples in the previous paragraph were only offense related. I can imagine an even worse scenario with defensive mons. Double Teaming Blissey/Chansey/Porygon2/Skarmory/etc. Any pokemon with 1) Reliable recovery 2)Great walling stats and 3) with a set of Substitute/Double Team/Recovery move/Attack move can theoretically sweep. And the strategy would be reliable as well. Considering that these pokemon are so hard to kill in the first place it would not be difficult to set-up. Blissey for example can set-up on all special attackers and then keep DTing until a miss and/or get a sub then sweep.

It is because of things like these that Evasion is uncompetitive and thus banned.



Of course i would ban Evasion moves. 24 pokemon is HUGE. That would double the size of the Uber list in just a day. And i really wouldnt want to have to argue with people on the brokenness of each and every suspect with double team and have to face the same arguements again and again. Not to mention the pokemon banned would theoretically be things like Blissey and Skarmory. Defensive mons which are nowhere near to threatening without the move.

I get your point, but with your theory, that makes Baton Pass broken, not Double Team or Minimize.

 

[jas61292]

The matter is that some things just don't have enough viable counters.

Also you seem to believe that if a strategy or a poke has counters that makes it non broken or uncompetitve which is not true.
Kyogre gets countered by Gastrodon but it is still Uber.
Evasion raising moves get countered by some 100% htting moves and by some other few moves but this doesn't necessarily mean that they are not broken or uncompetitive.
Also most 100% hitting moves don't even counter DT users as they are really weak and cannot hit them hard enough to prevent them from doing what they are supposed to do.
So for example what are these shitty moves(except Aura Shpere) going to do against a Scizor or a Dragonite or an Excadrill or an /insert anything not weak to Electric/Fighting/Grass/Flying/Ghost.
Not to mention that for a counter to matter it has to be viable.It must have other uses other than just countering one move or one poke.
If you look at every OU pokes they all have multiple uses and don't focus only in one aspect.
And that's exactly what the always hitting moves do.So you can't really call them viable counters.

It is true that not everyone will be weak to the moves that ignore evasion, and thus some Pokemon might be able to actually use a DT strategy. So what? Every Pokemon gest Substitute and Protect. Not all can use them well though. Just because they can though does not mean it breaks them. Same is true for Double Team.

Additionally, the point I have been trying to make about viability is that countering top threats is in and of itself something to make a Pokemon viable. It pisses me off when people complain about a Pokemon being too good but won't use its counter because the counter is "not good enough." If a Pokemon does something you need, then it is good.

And as for the argument that the only counters would be dead weight otherwise, that is thinking from the wrong point of view. People go into these arguments thinking about Pokemon in the current metagame, and not the metagame in which this stuff actually applies. It is true that, say, Clear Smog Amoongus, might not be good in the current metagame, but in a metagame where it shuts down the top threats, it would be. Saying that a Pokemon is an un-viable counter because it would be too limited in the real metagame does not prove anything about a hypothetical one. If a metagame is actually given some time to adapt, the appropriate counters would rise up. Only after a metagame is give time to adapt would we be able to tell if there really are not enough counters

 

[alexwolf]

Hey guy.......You missed this, didn't you?


And don't bother telling me it's running a Sub 'cus that would only leave one moveslot for an unboosted Atk (probably Outrage).

No man i didn't miss it.
I also belive that DT and Minimize is not a broken move.
What i believe is that it is uncompetitive.
It lessens the impact of skill in a game and strenghtens the impact of luck in a game.

Jas told me that if a threat has counters and you don't use them it's your fault for losing.
And i tried to show him how even if something has counters it can still be broken or uncompetitive(uncompetitive in this case).

 

[His Eminence Lord Poppington II]

This, in my opinion, is a biased and incorrect argument. Uncompetitive =/= luck based. However there was an entire thread on this a few months ago, and I don't feel like going back to that. The point is, just because something increases luck does not mean it is uncompetitive. You might not like it, but just as uncompetitive =/= luck based, things that annoy people =/= uncompetitive.

And this here is the ignorant point of view that causes non broken things to get banned (well at least close to banned, I think we have done a good job this gen of avoiding that). Sure, in the current metagame those Pokemon migt not be the best, and you might not think them to be good, but if they stop a top threat, then they are good no matter what you think of them.

If A counters B, and B is good, then A is good. If you don't like A, well that is unfortunate, but you don't ban B because you don't feel like using its counters.

lol, how is that biased? i am not unfairly weighed in either direction of this argument by an extraneous force, it is my opinion, as your opposing one is your own.

then please tell me how adding a luck factor increases competitiveness (or for that matter does not negatively influence it), to compete is to win in its strictest definition, and whilst evasion skills might increase the odds of one winning it requires no skill and therefore is not in a competitive interest.

first off, calling me ignorant isn't going to do you any favours (stay civil, please), secondly if A counters B and only B then B is niche and not necessarily good. If B requires highly specific counters that lack utility out of their specific role then B is broken.

anyway, i am not even arguing the broken-ness of evasion, I'll remain neutral and that and say that I foresee it being annoying at least.

i am, however, arguing that evasion moves are uncompetitive and this has been smogon's philosophy for as long as i can remember for the reasons stated above.

 

[alexwolf]

lol, how is that biased? i am not unfairly weighed in either direction of this argument by an extraneous force, it is my opinion, as your opposing one is your own.

then please tell me how adding a luck factor increases competitiveness (or for that matter does not negatively influence it), to compete is to win in its strictest definition, and whilst evasion skills might increase the odds of one winning it requires no skill and therefore is not in a competitive interest.

first off, calling me ignorant isn't going to do you any favours (stay civil, please), secondly if A counters B and only B then B is niche and not necessarily good. If B requires highly specific counters that lack utility out of their specific role then B is broken.

anyway, i am not even arguing the broken-ness of evasion, I'll remain neutral and that and say that I foresee it being annoying at least.

i am, however, arguing that evasion moves are uncompetitive and this has been smogon's philosophy for as long as i can remember for the reasons stated above.

As i see you find these moves uncompetitive!
What is your opinion about the evasion raising abilites?
Uncompetitive or not?

 

[Joel]

It is true that not everyone will be weak to the moves that ignore evasion, and thus some Pokemon might be able to actually use a DT strategy. So what? Every Pokemon gest Substitute and Protect. Not all can use them well though. Just because they can though does not mean it breaks them. Same is true for Double Team.

Additionally, the point I have been trying to make about viability is that countering top threats is in and of itself something to make a Pokemon viable. It pisses me off when people complain about a Pokemon being too good but won't use its counter because it is "not good enough." If a Pokemon does something you need, then it is good.

And as for the argument that the only counters would be dead weight otherwise, that is thinking from the wrong point of view. People go into these arguments thinking about Pokemon in the current metagame, and not the metagame in which this stuff actually applies. It is true that, say, Clear Smog Amoongus, might not be good in the current metagame, but in a metagame where it shuts down the top threats, it would be. Saying that a Pokemon is an un-viable counter because it would be too limited in the real metagame does not prove anything about a hypothetical one. If a metagame is actually given some time to adapt, the appropriate counters would rise up.

Unaware...The ability.

Quagsire...The Pokemon.

OU...The metagame.

Quagsire...Capable of walling at least 8 of the top 10 current OU 'mons.

Unaware...Able to counter DT and Minimize.

 

[charizard24]

I get your point, but with your theory, that makes Baton Pass broken, not Double Team or Minimize.

Wrong. Baton Pass is not broken on the majority of users that recieve it and it is not even broken on the minority. No one pokemon can be broken with the move Baton Pass. Unless your telling me that Ninjask is broken because it can pass Speed or that Scizor is broken because it can pass a Swords Dance. The only thing arguably broken about Baton Pass is the chaining aspect of it where you need six i repeat Six pokemon to make the strategy work. And even then, Baton pass chains can be stopped

.

Unaware...The ability.

Quagsire...The Pokemon.

OU...The metagame.

Quagsire...Capable of walling at least 8 of the top 10 current OU 'mons.

Unaware...Able to counter DT and Minimize.

And what happens when Quagsire cant deal with the evasion boosting pokemon? You just lost your only Counter to the strategy. Dont say it cant happen because i can give you one clear example right here: Celebi.


Oh and another thing i forgot to mention in the previous posts: Prankster Double Team ... Yeah.

 

[Joel]

No man i didn't miss it.
I also belive that DT and Minimize is not a broken move.
What i believe is that it is uncompetitive.
It lessens the impact of skill in a game and strenghtens the impact of luck in a game.

Jas told me that if a threat has counters and you don't use them it's your fault for losing.
And i tried to show him how even if something has counters it can still be broken or uncompetitive(uncompetitive in this case).

I apologize and I agree with you, but not for the reason you want me to agree.

They are uncompetitive because they are either easily stopped, or because you are boosting with them. Silly DT/Minimize users.

Wrong. Is Baton Pass is not broken on the majority of users that recieve it and it is not even broken on the minority. No one pokemon can be broken with the move Baton Pass. Unless your telling me that Ninjask is broken because it can pass Speed or that Scizor is broken because it can pass a Swords Dance. The only thing arguably broken about Baton Pass is the chaining aspect of it where you need six i repeat Six pokemon to make the strategy work. And even then, Baton pass chains can be stopped.

Same can be said for DT/Minimize.

 

[jas61292]

lol, how is that biased? i am not unfairly weighed in either direction of this argument by an extraneous force, it is my opinion, as your opposing one is your own.

Ok, I guess biased is not the right word. My point was that you were using the term in a way that is, as far as I am concerned, not at all a correct definition.

then please tell me how adding a luck factor increases competitiveness (or for that matter does not negatively influence it), to compete is to win in its strictest definition, and whilst evasion skills might increase the odds of one winning it requires no skill and therefore is not in a competitive interest.

I never said adding luck increases competitiveness. I have simply said that allowing Double Team does not reduce competitiveness. As you have stated, competitiveness is derived from the players desire to win. If people are competing in such a way, not only is it competitive, but it encourages adaptation, and the development of counters and new strategies.

Additionally, I do not believe Evasion does even increase the odds of winning. In my opinion, it is a horrible strategy that rarely works. However, if people want to try that in order to win, then it is their right to do so.

And as for requiring no skill, if you think you can win any battle against a skilled opponent by simply using double team and not having any skill of your own, you are mistaken. And if you are saying that it decreases the amount of skill needed to beat common strategies, then I can counter by saying that in that case, skilled players could use it to give themselves that much more of an edge. I have said it before and I will say it again: Luck and Skill are not opposites. You can have one without needing to eliminate the other.

first off, calling me ignorant isn't going to do you any favours (stay civil, please), secondly if A counters B and only B then B is niche and not necessarily good. If B requires highly specific counters that lack utility out of their specific role then B is broken.

I would like to clarify, I never called you ignorant, and did not mean to insult you. My attack was at your argument, not at you personally.

And while it is true that niche counters are not enough to argue non-brokenness, as I said in my last post you can't know what would be niche or mainstream in a DT metagame without letting the metagame develop.

 

[charizard24]

Same can be said for DT/Minimize.

Did you even read what i said before blatanty hitting the reply button?

I clearly stated that no one pokemon with baton pass is broken and that is true. However if you apply that same principle to Evasion boosting it is not. While the Evasion boosting pokemon may not always be guaranteed a sweep, it more than often will be able to with a lucky miss here or there.

Even if Baton Passing Evasion was OP i would still ban evasion and not baton pass for this simple reason: Baton Passing any other stat is not broken. The only stat boost that breaks it is Evasion and so it should be banned.

 

[alexwolf]

Also, a smart person would have Subbed turn 2 and then kept subbing for a miss and Roosting eventually boosting with DT when you get the chance. In that scenario, Dragonite will always win.

Sorry for doing only this question,i am in a hurry,but what is a dragonite with this set going to do anyway?
If the set is Sub,Roost,DT,Dragon Claw then you get walled and setup on by many pokes in OU like Skarmory,Roost Scizor,Hippodown,Porygon 2,Jirachi,Roar Heatran,Reuniclus,Vaporeon,Bulk Up Toxicroak,Bulk Up Scrafty and more.