D/P Kecleon

[kd24]

MillionDaggers showed this to me and I tested it out for a bit. Worked much better then Kecleon's other sets because it can completely screw up opposing Pokemon. Apparently he made this set for OU play but it still worked well in UU. I forgot all about this set but luckily I happened to catch it on a warstory here on Smogon.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kecleon

[SET]
Name: Priority
Move 1: Substitute / Snatch
Move 2: Magic Coat / Thunder Wave
Move 3: Sucker Punch
Move 4: Focus Punch
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Careful / Sassy
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD


[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Instead of straight out attacking like the previous sets, this set relies on prediction and the use of priority moves to make up for Kecleon's below average Speed.</p>

<p>Kecleon often falls victim to status moves as his low Speed prevents him from using Substitute first. However with Magic Coat, you can bounce back any status attack and give Kecleon the advantage. This also provides Kecleon a chance to set up Substitute without problem. Thunder Wave can be included to ensure you can create a Substitute before taking damage. When under the Substitute, the prediction game starts. Sucker Punch can take out any damaged, fast, frail sweepers who rely solely on Speed and try to break the Substitute. Focus Punch can also be used behind the Substitute, especially if Kecleon's Color Change causes it to become a Fighting-type. The type combo of Sucker Punch (Dark) and Focus Punch (Fighting) also provides a neutral hit against every Pokemon (barring Heracross and Toxicroak) in the game.</p>

<p>Snatch is a fantastic option over Substitute as it allows you not only to steal your opponent's Substitute but also steal stat boosts as well. A Kecleon with +2 Attack after Snatching a Swords Dance is much more dangerous than a normal one.</p>

<p>The EVs focus on Kecleon's fantastic Special Defense, allowing him to take any special attacks coming his way. 240 HP EVs allow him to switch into Stealth Rock 8 times without dying as well as creating 5 Substitutes when factoring in Leftovers.</p>

<p>If you feel Kecleon needs more attacking power, an alternate EV spread of 240 HP / 236 Atk / 32 SpD with an Adamant Nature can be used. This provides Kecleon a way of killing many more threats with Focus Punch and Sucker Punch.</p>

 

[AlphaSpade]

Um...why is Calm the nature when you are using Physical attacks? Shouldn't it be Careful?

 

[Havak]

Ugh, why? :( Lol

I'd just started a full Kecleon Peer Edit myself.. Ah well, I'll still post it once finished.

Careful or Sassy Nature.

Please, proof read your analyses before you post them ._.

 

[kd24]

shoot changed it to careful. Had calm on the mind. Sorry Havak. You can just incorperate this into it or just redo it. Didnt know you were doing a Kecleon peer edit.

I must be missing some obvious mistakes. I just proofread it again and besides that accidental Calm and Careful slip I really didn't see a problem besides a few phrases that I cleaned up, making it a bit clearer. Is there a big issue that Im just missing or was it just the calm/careful thing?

 

[Havak]

Yeh, it's no problem lol. I didn't include a Magic Coat set so it's fine, hopefully I'll be able to post it tomorrow. (Personally I think the whole Kecleon page needs redoing, so that's what I'm working on now).

 

[Aldaron]

I have no idea what Havak is going on about KD24 the analysis looks good in general terms to me. I also don't get why he would say that without providing any corrections besides the nature one. Not exactly constructive criticism there.

Anyway, I know the purpose of the set is kind of to deflect status and stuff, but have you tried that same set with the option to use Snatch over Magic Coat?

I've actually seen (never used though, so I won't be making a Peer Edit) of that same SubFPSP set with Snatch instead of Magic Coat, and it has worked very well.

I think Snatch and a description on how to use it should be included, as I don't think the Snatch set deserves its own set.

 

[kd24]

Completely forgot about snatch. I have seen it used over Substitute and Magic Coat. I will list it for now as an option Coat but it can be used in place of Sub as well.

edit: add snatch as an option.

 

[Bologo]

Mention Snatch as an option over Substitute. You can still steal subs with it, but you can also steal stat boosts and stuff, and it still gets priority. I've tried the set with Snatch and it works pretty well, though it does require a ton of prediction (Kecleon in general does anyway). Snatch does give another priority move though.

Sucker Punch/Focus Punch really doesn't seem to me like it would be hurting much. In the creative moveset thread, I posted a Predictleon that had a ton of Attack EVs, so that the opponent would actually get punished for predicting wrong, and not just get a little poke from a shitty attack stat thanks to only 16 Atk EVs. I think I put enough for about 290 Attack to really hurt things, and I had an Adamant nature as well. It just doesn't need that many Special Defense EVs.

I suppose that the Snatch set would probably be better off as an entirely different set now that I think about though since it's a lot more offensive than this one...

Anyway:

<p>Instead of straight out attacking like the previous sets, this set relies on prediction and the use of priority moves to make up for Kecleon's below average Speed.</p>

<p>Kecleon often falls victim to status moves, as his low Speed prevents him from using Substitute first. However, with Magic Coat, you can bounce back any status attack and give Kecleon the advantage. This also provides Kecleon a chance to set up his Substitute without a problem. Magic Coat can possibly bounce moves such as Thunder Wave or Hypnosis to the opponent, allowing you to safely set up Substitute while the opponent stays asleep or paralyzed. (You basically just said the exact same thing twice, but with different wording. Please fix.) Thanks to Kecleon's great Special Defense, Magic Coat can also bounce back a burn effectively, allowing you to survive any physical attack the foe throws at you. (Wouldn't it only burn the pokemon that's actually using the burn-inducing move? If so, it doesn't really help you survive any physical attack the foe throws at you, since most physical sweepers don't have Will-O-Wisp. I'd reword this sentence, or remove it.) When under the Substitute, the prediction game may (There's no "may" about it, they do start. Remove "may".) start. Sucker Punch can take out any opponents that think they can try to break the Substitute. (A non-STAB 80 BP move is not going to be taking "any" opponents out that think they can break the substitute, especially with only 16 Atk EVs and a neutral nature. Fix this sentence.) It also deals with fast but frail sweepers who rely on Speed to beat their opponent. (You should mention that it will take them down only if they are weakened. There's no way that this is taking down any of those things from full health.) Focus Punch can also be used behind the Substitute, hitting anything hard, especially if Kecleon's Color Change causes it to become a Fighting-type. The type combo of Sucker Punch (Dark), and Focus Punch (Fighting) also provides a neutral hit against every Pokemon (barring Heracross and Toxicroak).</p>

<p>The EVs focus on Kecleon's fantastic Special Defense, allowing him to take any special attacks coming his way. 240 HP EVs allow him to switch into Stealth Rock 8 times without dying, as well as creating 5 Substitutes when factoring in Leftovers.</p>

Fixed some stuff and made some suggestions. I really think that you should either add several more Attack EVs to this Kecleon, or add another set that's much more offensive, and abuses Snatch, like the one that I put in the creative movesets thread (it's in the sorting thread now). The one I used was way more offensive than this one, and this one has a lot of trouble actually punishing anything if they predict wrong.

Good luck.

EDIT: I guess you don't need to make Snatch its own set, but you do need to provide an alternate EV spread in a new paragraph if you put Snatch as an option, with more Attack. Though I still think it needs its own set, since I've used it with pretty good success and it works much differently than this one. It goes MUCH better over Substitute though, if someone really wants to test their prediction skills. If you can steal Substitutes, why have Substitute as a moveslot? :P

 

[Havak]

I really don't think I criticised him in anyway, I was just jokingly asking why he did this as I'm working on a Kecleon Peer Edit (when he had no way of knowing, which is why it was a joke...)

The only change was Calm Nature to Careful or Sassy, which I felt was very obvious and asked him to proof read a little better in future. I hardly think there was much to criticise constructively there.

I do like the idea of Snatch, though. If you include it in the set, don't forget to change the set name that can perhaps cover both moves, though nothing springs to mind just yet. The only other small nitpick at the moment is changing Pokemon to Pokémon.

 

[Stellar]

I really think that Fake Out deserves a mention. I'll go back through and edit grammar later.

 

[matty]

I'd like to dredge this Analysis from a couple of weeks ago. I think it deserves a bit more commentary/credit for a solid set...

The only thing I would add is a slash next to Magic Coat with a consideration to T-Wave to help out the team. Also would give you a good chance at setting up a Sub.

 

[husk]

You should probably keep sub on the set no matter what. If you're going to include snatch as an option it should be over magic coat. The entire reason this set is even viable is substitute.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I have no idea what Havak is going on about KD24 the analysis looks good in general terms to me. I also don't get why he would say that without providing any corrections besides the nature one. Not exactly constructive criticism there.

Obviously Havak doesnt think the analysis is as good as it can be, which is why he said he was going to be posting an edit in the very near future. Not exactly constructive criticism there.

Anyway, I know the purpose of the set is kind of to deflect status and stuff, but have you tried that same set with the option to use Snatch over Magic Coat?

You should probably keep sub on the set no matter what. If you're going to include snatch as an option it should be over magic coat. The entire reason this set is even viable is substitute.

I agree with both of you, Substitute is pretty much mandatory on this set. Not only is it the whole core of the set, but not that many things even use Substitute anymore, so if you're waiting around to Snatch one you are probably going to be KOd first.

 

[kd24]

Alright I will switch it up later to include Substitute as the main move of the set and have the next slot between snatch / magic coat / maybe thunder wave

 

[Blue Kirby]

This post is for Aldaron's and Jrrrrrrr's purposes ...

Delete; this is already on the site.