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Conkeldurr [QC: 3/3][GP 0/2]
- Thread starter Colonel M
- Start date
Under the first or second set?
Under the first set makes me really worried because now you possibly limit Conkeldurr switching into Heatran and, when they are used, bulky Water-types that spam Scald. You can also abuse paralysis and Toxic to a lesser extent, but nevertheless...
Not saying it is bad, but the problem is now everyone knows what to send in on Knock Off. Suddenly you have people sending in their Mega Gyaras or Scizors on you and suddenly you are wiped out. And the Lucario thing, you never know if it's physical or special, so do you want to risk staring at a +1 Mega Luke CCing you to death?
Conk's biggest flaws are its predictability and 4-moveslot syndrome. You ALWAYS want Mach Punch, another Fighting STAB, and now Knock Off, so how much variety can you really have? Also Conk hates Fairies...a lot (especially Sylveon).
Gyarados switching into Knock Off will tell you it's a Mega, and it'd be a pretty dumb one to turn into a Dark type on even a -1 Conk with Drain Punch. Mega Scizor can't out damage Conk with Drain Punch and doest have the time to Swords Dance and still come out on top. And Luke has no business switching into Conk unless it's severely weakened so you can finish with Bullet Punch and you are purposefully baiting the Knock Off with a Slowbro or something. And even then that's a big risk because Drain Punch will outright kill him and Mach Punch can too with Guts activated. Mega Venus air on the otherhand, or Liquid Ooze Tentacruel, will really wall AV Conk.
Conk certainly has a best set, but he can still run several very effective variants dependent on what your team needs. He's a great threat to Genesect for example with Fire Punch. And Bulk Up really is still good with majority of attacks remaining physical. It has few actual hard counters, he has enough EV spreads, abilities and moves to be designed to handle specific would be checks.
With Scizor, I was mostly referencing the ones that carry roost, sorry, and Gyara can stay un-mega evolved and set up in Conk's face. But anyway, I never said Conk was bad, but you have to admit that he has a 4MSS problem, I mean, without ThunderPunch or Rock Slide you risk Talonflame/Mega Charizard Roosting against you if they have it, or just straight OHKOing you (remember that Knock Off will only hit at 100 BP once and cannot kill either of them without Rocks damage), and without Ice Punch you cannot touch Gliscor/Lando-T (though they both hate Knock Off on the switch). Mega Venus outright stonewalls any Conk (especially if they have sleep powder or you AV is knocked off) as does Tentacruel if you do not have ThunderPunch (though it hates knock off as much as Lando). However, this is not game-changing for him, but you have to remember what you are walled by when using Conk.
On the subject of Lando-T and MegaZard Y, I actually found Conkeldurr can act as a effective lure for both. Lando-T hates losing its Leftovers (if it's bulky) and takes a lot from Ice Punch. Zard Y is, as I mentioned, OHKOed by Knock Off followed by Mach Punch (if you have rocks up) or just straight wiped out by ThunderPunch (you need to Mach Punch to OHKO it from full without rocks, bear in mind) and it cannot OHKO you from full with anything, even after SR (just make sure your AV is not Knocked Off).
Genesect is, truth be told, not something you need Fire Punch for, Drain Punch/Knock Off followed by Mach Punch will kill it after one round of SR/Spikes.
Conk's only problem is that it isn't that hard to scout what it is, Leftovers or Life Orb are easy enough to see, as are Flame/Toxic Orb (if you are using it), and like both you and I mentioned, it cannot do anything to Mega Venusaur (especially if it carries Sleep Powder) or Fairies (especially Sylveon, who can easily 2HKO the AV set and OHKO any other, while the worst you can do is hit it with a resisted knock off or a Guts-Boosted coverage move, neither of which can come close to killing it). Bulk Up in particular has two major problems--Aegislash and Florges/Sylveon. If you do not carry the Knock Off then Aegislash can SD in your face and use Sacred Sword to ignore your boosts, or blow you out with a Shadow Ball, if it carries it. I mentioned that Sylveon takes next to nothing from your moves and can OHKO you, and Florges is in a similar category (though it cannot OHKO you as easily).
I hear what you're saying. Realistically you aren't going to lure Char Y in with rocks still up if the enemy can help it, so I wouldn't say those scenarios are the most likely. Conk is walled by Venusaur outside of really unorthodox sets like Bulk Up + Earthquake and even then that's horrible, he should always switch out. Bulk Up Conk actually has a fair shot of killing Talonflame if he Bulk Ups on the switch, as Brave Bird recoil and a +1 Knock Off will always do the job and Choice Band BB does at most 85% to you. AV Conk also can't beat Slowbro with only Knock Off, I've tried. The first Knock Off does at most 50% which he can heal with Slack Off or Regenerator, then he can slowly wear you down, and if he has Psychic than just forget about it. You would need Bulk Up and Thunder Punch here.
Honestly though AV Conk's job isn't to sweep, just be an annoying tank and let the attrition it takes fighting that monster take its toll on the enemy. In that sense its ok if some things wall it, its better to make switch ins difficult with really powerful Knock Offs. Because of this, outside of Lucario, Absol and Gyarados, just keep him away from the Megas in general lol.
Honestly though AV Conk's job isn't to sweep, just be an annoying tank and let the attrition it takes fighting that monster take its toll on the enemy. In that sense its ok if some things wall it, its better to make switch ins difficult with really powerful Knock Offs. Because of this, outside of Lucario, Absol and Gyarados, just keep him away from the Megas in general lol.
I'd also mention Aegislash here
Well, status isn't exactly something you control, so I'd refrain from telling the player to hold off from using Knock Off. Hitting Aegislash on the switch is a good idea, even if you don't OHKO it. You deprive it of its item, and can easily bait the King's Shield from your opponent. (which your teammates can abuse)
It doesn't, since Shadow Ball does far to much damage. Mega Aggron is a decent check at least.
Wouldn't Lucario just use Bullet Punch or Extremespeed in that case? In which case, you may as well use Drain Punch to heal off some of the inevidible (SP?) damage.
Aegislash is OHKOed in Shield form without the Guts boost (or is brought low enough to where anything can finish it off), you just have to not get hut with King's Shield.
The problem is that Close Combat can OHKO you, and do you want to risk that happening?
Which is precisely my point? He should mention Aegislash as a target for Knock Off since it's more relevant. And no, it's not OHKOed in Shield form.
Makes sense.
It's brought low enough to where it really can't do anything, especially with no leftovers. Not to mention that, for the Assault Vest set, Shadow Ball hurts but will not 2HKO you.
No mention of status orb + TR? As fundamentally flawed TR may be, it is still very anti-meta and can wreck HO, and conkeldurr is the go-to physical nuke for TR teams. Not asking for a status orb set, or status orb anything, but just breifly mention how he becomes a beast in TR and is a very viable candidate for it should you decide to build that type of team.
The thing is, HO isn't as common nowadays since everything carries priority. I mean, how are you going to use a Dragon Dancer when suddenly a Talonflame OHKOes you with Brave Bird? Or say, an Swords Dancer when you have to not be weak to Bullet Punch, Brave Bird, or Shadow Sneak, and carry a non-contact move lest Aegislash laugh in your face? Another problem with Status Orb is that you suffer from a problem of survivability. I mean, Conk has a problem of Aegislash cutting its attack with King's Shield, sure you can beat it with Knock Off, but what is to say that it will not King's Shield once, then switch to something that can manhandle you (like Mega Venusaur or Lando-T), all the meanwhile racking up status damage.
What's HO?
Hyper Offense, a playstyle. Pretty self-explanatory :P
That whole paragraph was pretty bad. You're just basically just brushing aside any sweeper that is weak to the following of what you say. There are hard counters to talonflame (rotom-w, heatran) and aegislash (mandibuzz, sp. def hippowdon) and no sweeper is truly stand-alone (except maybe EKA, but that's ubers). Sweepers work because they have teammates to remove potential priority users. You also have to keep in mind some sweepers are bulky enough to take priority moves; most priority moves only have 40 base power. Not using a set-up sweeper he doesn't resist priority is a narrow way to think and teambuild.
While we're talking about priority, you realize conkeldurr has acess to mach punch right? Under TR, this means his mach punch goes before things like scizor's buller punch, and you should only be using status orb conk in TR anyway. And honestly, talonflame is getting rarer these days, with all the rotom-w around, as long as you carry something for it I honestly don't think of it as a problem.
About aegislash, you can beat it with proper prediction. If you predict the KS, you can drain punch, and since it doesn't affect it you don't get the attack drop. You can then knock off for some big damage. Just hope it doesn't get double KS :P Conkeldurr also keeps itself surprisingly healthy with drain punch, as the harder you hit the more you recover. While I admit longevity is an issue, the insane power he brings to the table while being able to absorb opposing status and switch moves can't be ignored. The playstyle in which status orb conk belongs, TR, isn't really build to make matches last long, so the longevity issue is mostly mitigated.
Way to completely miss the point.
Let's try this again; if you're going to advise the player to use Knock Off, what should be the primary example to demonstrate its main draw?
Hint: It's not Jellicent.
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I'd like to mention that running 44 Speed EVs on the All-Out Attacker set to outspeed min speed Azumarill is not going to always work, as Azumarill also tends to run Speed EVs to outspeed base 55s like Blissey, or maybe even base 60s and more. That causes speed creeping and well that's bad.
When originally I brought this up to QC a couple members (I can't remember who) mentioned not to have Bulk Up before All-Out Attacker.
This is, of course, before the nominations of potential bans such as Lucarionite and such.
Stone Edge will replace Thunder Punch (which will go to Moves section) for Pinsir and Charizard Y more than X (X hates Stone Edge but Drain Punch still does okay).