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Item Choice Scarf (Role in the Meta)
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
- Start date
- Status
Yeah, I am surprised that no one mentioned Scarf Darmanitan until just then which can actually be quite threatening in OU as well. There are still not many things that want to switch into that Flare Blitz, and considering a lot of the Water-types have dropped down to UU it actually isn't a half bad time for it to sneak into OU and hit them with that ridiculous Sheer Force Flare Blitz. And it has U-Turn as well for great pivoting.
Another one which I am surprised hasn't been mentioned yet is Scarf Staraptor, which is making quite a name for itself this gen especially in the Double Bird strategy. With a Choice Scarf and 100 Base Speed it becomes very fast and can only really be outsped by priority, other scarfers and boosters. Then it hits like a truck with Reckless Brave Bird and Double Edge, in combination with Close Combat for nice coverage and U-turn for pivoting.
Another one which I am surprised hasn't been mentioned yet is Scarf Staraptor, which is making quite a name for itself this gen especially in the Double Bird strategy. With a Choice Scarf and 100 Base Speed it becomes very fast and can only really be outsped by priority, other scarfers and boosters. Then it hits like a truck with Reckless Brave Bird and Double Edge, in combination with Close Combat for nice coverage and U-turn for pivoting.
choice scarf can't be used for revenge killing when these three monsters are giving the metagame headaches just from priority
there are obviously others but these are the 3 who can sweep with their priority alone, after playing a team with all 3 of them on it, i think we can compare it to scarf users. on top of all this, they are so versatile that they can run multiple sets to go with their priority
we can't use scarf users for strictly revenge killing like we could in the past, they're not strong enough, they need to have another role, like a sweeper, wall breaker, something else, for example: scarfchomp is much more than a revenge killer, in fact, it's probably better to describe him as late game clean up, he functions like those three do in that they can be used for revenge killing but do the late game clean up fantastically well
scizor was the first pokemon to do this with priority, able to do more things with priority besides revenge killing, then we got breloom who could fuck over teams with spore and then sweep with mach punch but as these were really the only two priority abusers we got, we still needed scarfed revenge killers for team function (dnite was off doing abusive things last gen)
now that priority is fucking everywhere, it's probably best to look at it as not revenge killing, but for sweeping and that's what we need to view choice scarf as, not for revenge killing but for sweeping with something absurdly fast
which probably means the scarfer needs to be stupidly powerful like garchomp, excadrill, or staraptor. heck, latios is even struggling now to be a good scarfer as it's not "strong enough"
there are obviously others but these are the 3 who can sweep with their priority alone, after playing a team with all 3 of them on it, i think we can compare it to scarf users. on top of all this, they are so versatile that they can run multiple sets to go with their priority
we can't use scarf users for strictly revenge killing like we could in the past, they're not strong enough, they need to have another role, like a sweeper, wall breaker, something else, for example: scarfchomp is much more than a revenge killer, in fact, it's probably better to describe him as late game clean up, he functions like those three do in that they can be used for revenge killing but do the late game clean up fantastically well
scizor was the first pokemon to do this with priority, able to do more things with priority besides revenge killing, then we got breloom who could fuck over teams with spore and then sweep with mach punch but as these were really the only two priority abusers we got, we still needed scarfed revenge killers for team function (dnite was off doing abusive things last gen)
now that priority is fucking everywhere, it's probably best to look at it as not revenge killing, but for sweeping and that's what we need to view choice scarf as, not for revenge killing but for sweeping with something absurdly fast
which probably means the scarfer needs to be stupidly powerful like garchomp, excadrill, or staraptor. heck, latios is even struggling now to be a good scarfer as it's not "strong enough"
It seems to me that Latios's issue with being a scarfer is his less than amazing physical bulk not his "strength". When the vast majority if priority moves are physical, having a scarfer that doesn't resist extremespeeds and brave birds is much more risky than in the past.choice scarf can't be used for revenge killing when these three monsters are giving the metagame headaches just from priority
there are obviously others but these are the 3 who can sweep with their priority alone, after playing a team with all 3 of them on it, i think we can compare it to scarf users. on top of all this, they are so versatile that they can run multiple sets to go with their priority
we can't use scarf users for strictly revenge killing like we could in the past, they're not strong enough, they need to have another role, like a sweeper, wall breaker, something else, for example: scarfchomp is much more than a revenge killer, in fact, it's probably better to describe him as late game clean up, he functions like those three do in that they can be used for revenge killing but do the late game clean up fantastically well
scizor was the first pokemon to do this with priority, able to do more things with priority besides revenge killing, then we got breloom who could fuck over teams with spore and then sweep with mach punch but as these were really the only two priority abusers we got, we still needed scarfed revenge killers for team function (dnite was off doing abusive things last gen)
now that priority is fucking everywhere, it's probably best to look at it as not revenge killing, but for sweeping and that's what we need to view choice scarf as, not for revenge killing but for sweeping with something absurdly fast
which probably means the scarfer needs to be stupidly powerful like garchomp, excadrill, or staraptor. heck, latios is even struggling now to be a good scarfer as it's not "strong enough"
I feel that Choice Scarf is becoming less appealing for three major reasons:
Even for those Pokemon that are fast and powerful like Terrakion and Greninja, it's infinitely easier to find a Pokemon that can take hits from them than finding a check that out-speeds them; Pokemon like Aegislash, Sylveon, and Mega Venusaur cover those sweepers and can do a lot more with their team slot than you can get out of a Choice Scarf-user. And even foregoing that, there's always a Priority user that could take down those threats as well.
It's really easy to list off powerful priority users this generation but the types are what's really threatening. In the past, the most you had to worry about was Scizor Bullet Punch, Ice Shard from Mamoswine or the rare Abomasnow, Breloom's Mach Punch, and Extreme Speed from Dragonite or Lucario. But now, on top of those old threats, Aegislash finally brought Shadow Sneak to OU, Azumarril's Aqua Jet has become a relatively common sight, Conkeldurr has made a comeback, Bisharp and Mega-Mawile have brought a STAB and a practically STAB Sucker Punch to the OU table, and for the first time we have two users of very powerful Flying-type STAB Priority. With all the obstacles that Choice Scarf-users already have to overcome, likely being weak to some form of priority is just the final nail in the coffin for a lot of Scarf-users.
And something that hasn't seemed to catch on, but is extremely effective, is running one or two Focus Sash-users and slapping Defog onto a Skarmory or Latias. Defog has made Focus Sash a more viable option than it has been since 4th Gen leads and it allows Pokemon like Weavile, Terrakion, and Thundurus to be a bigger nuisance than they have any right to be against a fully-set-up sweeper. Alakazam found himself in OU last gen because of that exact reason so when you factor in priority or set-up moves like Weavile has, Focus Sash can be devastating, far more-so than Choice Scarf could be.
To give it credit, Choice Scarf still has the element of surprise working for it and some Pokemon like Excadrill can pull it off nicely. Others are gonna struggle if they try it; Terrakion is a good example. Scarf Terrakion has had issues ever since Landorus-T became popular last gen but the addition of Aegislash is just too much. Dragons are in a similar position due to Fairy but Garchomp still seems fine. I guess use your own discretion when choosing a Choice Scarf-user but the Gen 5 standard of "every team needs a fast Pokemon" is dead; I'd even say that the only reason that mentality existed in the first place was Keldeo in Rain being stupid good and stall having no answer to it.
- the increase in both the power of priority and the types of priority.
- there are more options for checking sweepers available.
- the speed of OU sweepers is just dramatically lower than the previous generation.
Even for those Pokemon that are fast and powerful like Terrakion and Greninja, it's infinitely easier to find a Pokemon that can take hits from them than finding a check that out-speeds them; Pokemon like Aegislash, Sylveon, and Mega Venusaur cover those sweepers and can do a lot more with their team slot than you can get out of a Choice Scarf-user. And even foregoing that, there's always a Priority user that could take down those threats as well.
It's really easy to list off powerful priority users this generation but the types are what's really threatening. In the past, the most you had to worry about was Scizor Bullet Punch, Ice Shard from Mamoswine or the rare Abomasnow, Breloom's Mach Punch, and Extreme Speed from Dragonite or Lucario. But now, on top of those old threats, Aegislash finally brought Shadow Sneak to OU, Azumarril's Aqua Jet has become a relatively common sight, Conkeldurr has made a comeback, Bisharp and Mega-Mawile have brought a STAB and a practically STAB Sucker Punch to the OU table, and for the first time we have two users of very powerful Flying-type STAB Priority. With all the obstacles that Choice Scarf-users already have to overcome, likely being weak to some form of priority is just the final nail in the coffin for a lot of Scarf-users.
And something that hasn't seemed to catch on, but is extremely effective, is running one or two Focus Sash-users and slapping Defog onto a Skarmory or Latias. Defog has made Focus Sash a more viable option than it has been since 4th Gen leads and it allows Pokemon like Weavile, Terrakion, and Thundurus to be a bigger nuisance than they have any right to be against a fully-set-up sweeper. Alakazam found himself in OU last gen because of that exact reason so when you factor in priority or set-up moves like Weavile has, Focus Sash can be devastating, far more-so than Choice Scarf could be.
To give it credit, Choice Scarf still has the element of surprise working for it and some Pokemon like Excadrill can pull it off nicely. Others are gonna struggle if they try it; Terrakion is a good example. Scarf Terrakion has had issues ever since Landorus-T became popular last gen but the addition of Aegislash is just too much. Dragons are in a similar position due to Fairy but Garchomp still seems fine. I guess use your own discretion when choosing a Choice Scarf-user but the Gen 5 standard of "every team needs a fast Pokemon" is dead; I'd even say that the only reason that mentality existed in the first place was Keldeo in Rain being stupid good and stall having no answer to it.
Choice Scarf will always have its niche over priority when it comes to revenge killing in that:
1) the majority of attacks that can be used with a Scarf are stronger than most priority moves (with perhaps the exception of priority Brave Bird) allowing it to revenge targets from a higher health AND
2) the ability to have type coverage with your speediness making it able to revenge kill more threats.
Priority is still very useful, but most teams generally only have a max of 2 priority users, and what they can revenge with their priority is dependant on whether they have are squishy, have a weakness to it or have lost a significant amount of health. It can be very hard to revenge kill something which resists whatever kind of priority you carry though, which is where having 4 nice coverage moves on a Scarfer to check a lot more pokes, granted that they aren't trying to revenge something with strong priority or are already at really low health.
On top of Scarf users underestimated revenge killing capabilities, it also performs other roles in the form of a scout or pivot or late game sweeper, and most Pokemon nowadays using a Scarf should be able to revenge kill as well as perform one of those other roles.
And lastly as said before it can allow for a Poke to run an Adamant or Modest nature for extra fire-power as the scarf in a lot of cases already justifies all of its speed issues.
Granted I am not saying that priority is worse than a scarf, as priority definitely has a lot of pros over scarf users, but priority also isn't the answer everytime and a scarf user should definitely not be overlooked as it can work brilliantly in the right team.
EDIT: and Trick/Switcheroo Scarf screws over so much shit that it just isn't funny.
1) the majority of attacks that can be used with a Scarf are stronger than most priority moves (with perhaps the exception of priority Brave Bird) allowing it to revenge targets from a higher health AND
2) the ability to have type coverage with your speediness making it able to revenge kill more threats.
Priority is still very useful, but most teams generally only have a max of 2 priority users, and what they can revenge with their priority is dependant on whether they have are squishy, have a weakness to it or have lost a significant amount of health. It can be very hard to revenge kill something which resists whatever kind of priority you carry though, which is where having 4 nice coverage moves on a Scarfer to check a lot more pokes, granted that they aren't trying to revenge something with strong priority or are already at really low health.
On top of Scarf users underestimated revenge killing capabilities, it also performs other roles in the form of a scout or pivot or late game sweeper, and most Pokemon nowadays using a Scarf should be able to revenge kill as well as perform one of those other roles.
And lastly as said before it can allow for a Poke to run an Adamant or Modest nature for extra fire-power as the scarf in a lot of cases already justifies all of its speed issues.
Granted I am not saying that priority is worse than a scarf, as priority definitely has a lot of pros over scarf users, but priority also isn't the answer everytime and a scarf user should definitely not be overlooked as it can work brilliantly in the right team.
EDIT: and Trick/Switcheroo Scarf screws over so much shit that it just isn't funny.
I think this gen Scarfers will have a more prominent role in UU and lower tiers than in priority filled OU. Although I do not think Scarfers should be entirely overlooked in the OU metagame. Once the priority user or users are gone the Scarfed Pokemon has their time to shine. Even in OU two powerful UU Scarfers; Victini and Darmanitan can do a great deal of damage to unprepared teams after their priority users are gone.
Scarf heatran, whenever it appears, is always a surprise and usually costs me a player.
Scarf diggersby is an excellent lead thanks to u turn and huge power covers the attacking department.
In my experiences, scarf chomp is making a comeback as there aren't anymore common faster scarfers.
I think the role of a scarfer now really is to catch someone off guard. Whereas in gen iv and v, scarfers were obvious revenge killers, their users marked and prepared for, nowadays they spring out of the woodworks, too late to chalk up a defense.
Who expects scarf heatran? Or tyranitar? Who expects diggersby at all?
To put it in a (cheesy) example, where scarfers were once a knight, decked in his shiny armor, charging at you, they are now more like ninjas, deceiving you with a more common threat, then BOOM, surprise kill, you've just lost a vital team member.
Scarf diggersby is an excellent lead thanks to u turn and huge power covers the attacking department.
In my experiences, scarf chomp is making a comeback as there aren't anymore common faster scarfers.
I think the role of a scarfer now really is to catch someone off guard. Whereas in gen iv and v, scarfers were obvious revenge killers, their users marked and prepared for, nowadays they spring out of the woodworks, too late to chalk up a defense.
Who expects scarf heatran? Or tyranitar? Who expects diggersby at all?
To put it in a (cheesy) example, where scarfers were once a knight, decked in his shiny armor, charging at you, they are now more like ninjas, deceiving you with a more common threat, then BOOM, surprise kill, you've just lost a vital team member.
Scarfed Darmanitan is pretty darn dumb when you take account of it's base 140 Attack and Sheer Force. Granted Darmanitan its self isn't much of a problem in OU, but seeing scares the hell out of me as well.
Now the real scariest Scarfer I've seen is Landorus I. Why? Because apart from having overall good typing it has Knock Off, and being potentially faster than everything on your team and knocking off an item is terrifying.
Hence why I think Choice Scarf is probably the best choice item in the game, but that could just be me.
Now the real scariest Scarfer I've seen is Landorus I. Why? Because apart from having overall good typing it has Knock Off, and being potentially faster than everything on your team and knocking off an item is terrifying.
Hence why I think Choice Scarf is probably the best choice item in the game, but that could just be me.
As everybody already mentioned, my initial thought was that Scarf is now more appropriate as a lure item on slower threats than used for sheer-blistering speed. Tyranitar being a great example, having numerous checks but also the crazy mixed movepool and stats to back them up. Scarf is all it needs to decimate Gliscor with Ice Beam for example. And I remember being given a hard time when I presented scarfed Excadrill, but a speedy STAB Earthquake with Mold Breaker is no laughing matter, nor is outspeeding Talonflame's Flare Blitz and Pinsir's Earthquake.
Scarf is also not very appealing because of the increase of bulk AND power in OU. An item that increases neither is harder to justify when you can't switch moves. You'd have to be packing some serious natural power like Darmanitan to justify it.
Scarf is also not very appealing because of the increase of bulk AND power in OU. An item that increases neither is harder to justify when you can't switch moves. You'd have to be packing some serious natural power like Darmanitan to justify it.
What I think is very interesting about this metagame is that the role of the Scarfer is somewhat going into decline. With Genesect gone, I am seeing less and less Scarfers in OU. There are a few reasons why this might be occurring. Probably the largest is that the metagame's sweepers have gotten a lot bulkier. I mean, look at things like Mega DD Tar, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Charizard X. Pokemon like these possess immense bulk, and Scarf users tend to be weak because the item itself provides no boost to power. These Pokemon tend to struggle when things are not weakened for them to revenge kill, which is quite a predicament.
Another issue is how big of a deal priority is in this metagame. Things like SD Bisharp and Mega Pinsir can't just be handled with a Scarfer like most BW sweepers could, because their strong priorities can outright kill many Scarf users. Additionally, priority users themselves, which are ubiquitous, can act as effective revenge killers in similar ways to Choice Scarf users without the hassle of forfeiting their overall power and use to do so.
Despite these facts, we still see Scarfers, though. The reason for this is not so much revenge kills in this day and age, but more because of the many fast threats around. 108s are beat about by 110s which are beat out by Thund which is beat out by Torn-T which is beat out by Greninja which is beat out by Talonflame. Unless you want a frail attacker, a Scarfer is the best option to handle these Pokemon. ScarfChomp, Scarf Exca, Scarf Lando-T...look, they're all Ground-types, the most prominent Scarfers. They all have good sets of resistances and pose some specific threat/have utility. Scarf Exca has MB EQ + spin utility, Lando-T has Intimidate and resistances to pivot with U-turn and huge Attack to enhance EQ (and can run SR), Chomp has the Speed over Megazard X (and can SR too). There's also Rotom-W that's common. Notice a trend? They're all immune to TWave, so they can't be blocked by Thund-I. Its TWave is seriously detrimental to many common Pokemon. Also, U-turn/Volt Switch make amazing moves for Scarfers. Stuff like Scarf Diggersby, Victini, Darm are more viable because of U-turn. Another big thing is natural power. Massive offensive threat (Lando-T's 145 Atk, Exca's 135 Atk, Diggersby's Huge Power-boosted 55 Atk, Victini's V-create, Darm's SF-boosted FB) w/o an item is huge for viable Scarfers. Rotom-W is good because of VS to pivot, Pump, and TRICK. Tran is viable because of its typing that lets it handle top threats in this meta. Scarfers need to have large power and/or be able to handle top meta speedy threats well with a Scarf; otherwise they suck.
Scarfers have a lessened role now, and have become increasingly specialized, but are still in demand because this gen's Speed creep has elevated far beyond what we've seen before. As long as we have these frightening speedy offensive mon, they will be.
Another issue is how big of a deal priority is in this metagame. Things like SD Bisharp and Mega Pinsir can't just be handled with a Scarfer like most BW sweepers could, because their strong priorities can outright kill many Scarf users. Additionally, priority users themselves, which are ubiquitous, can act as effective revenge killers in similar ways to Choice Scarf users without the hassle of forfeiting their overall power and use to do so.
Despite these facts, we still see Scarfers, though. The reason for this is not so much revenge kills in this day and age, but more because of the many fast threats around. 108s are beat about by 110s which are beat out by Thund which is beat out by Torn-T which is beat out by Greninja which is beat out by Talonflame. Unless you want a frail attacker, a Scarfer is the best option to handle these Pokemon. ScarfChomp, Scarf Exca, Scarf Lando-T...look, they're all Ground-types, the most prominent Scarfers. They all have good sets of resistances and pose some specific threat/have utility. Scarf Exca has MB EQ + spin utility, Lando-T has Intimidate and resistances to pivot with U-turn and huge Attack to enhance EQ (and can run SR), Chomp has the Speed over Megazard X (and can SR too). There's also Rotom-W that's common. Notice a trend? They're all immune to TWave, so they can't be blocked by Thund-I. Its TWave is seriously detrimental to many common Pokemon. Also, U-turn/Volt Switch make amazing moves for Scarfers. Stuff like Scarf Diggersby, Victini, Darm are more viable because of U-turn. Another big thing is natural power. Massive offensive threat (Lando-T's 145 Atk, Exca's 135 Atk, Diggersby's Huge Power-boosted 55 Atk, Victini's V-create, Darm's SF-boosted FB) w/o an item is huge for viable Scarfers. Rotom-W is good because of VS to pivot, Pump, and TRICK. Tran is viable because of its typing that lets it handle top threats in this meta. Scarfers need to have large power and/or be able to handle top meta speedy threats well with a Scarf; otherwise they suck.
Scarfers have a lessened role now, and have become increasingly specialized, but are still in demand because this gen's Speed creep has elevated far beyond what we've seen before. As long as we have these frightening speedy offensive mon, they will be.
I also think one of the most important "scarfers" to consider is Deoxys-S. The life orb set essentially plays the same role as a scarfer, since it's essentially a scarfer that can have a boosting item to augment its attacking prowess (and doesn't get locked in). I shamelessly quote TooMuchSugar from the viability ranking thread:
Eeyup.
I wonder how game freak will deal with this priority glut in the next gen.
Will they make the wrong move and suddenly make a spat of priority increasing abilities and moves? Or will they tone it down?
With priority, and not just any priority, but STRONG priority everywhere, it often time makes it hard to even stand a chance. Remember the early days of gen VI? Brave bird and shadow sneak everywhere, and people couldn't handle it.
Add to that extreme speed and sucker punch revivals, and the meta game is practically defined no longer as "who is faster" but "who has faster priority"
To remain on topic, that I think, is the answer to the disappearing scarf question. It's because speed is no longer the question anymore, priority is. (Which I personally think is unhealthy)
Will they make the wrong move and suddenly make a spat of priority increasing abilities and moves? Or will they tone it down?
With priority, and not just any priority, but STRONG priority everywhere, it often time makes it hard to even stand a chance. Remember the early days of gen VI? Brave bird and shadow sneak everywhere, and people couldn't handle it.
Add to that extreme speed and sucker punch revivals, and the meta game is practically defined no longer as "who is faster" but "who has faster priority"
To remain on topic, that I think, is the answer to the disappearing scarf question. It's because speed is no longer the question anymore, priority is. (Which I personally think is unhealthy)
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You know you're in a bad spot when sucker punch has suddenly become a unreliable revenge killing move NOT because sweepers try to set up on predicted sucker punches, but because a lot of sweepers are both fast and have priority too and will use their priority to outspeed sucker punch!
Priority is one thing, being fast is another, being fast AND having priority AND still having enough power to one or two shot anything that doesn't resist it? Good golly I never thought I'd see the day where e-killer Arceus dropped to OU.
Priority is one thing, being fast is another, being fast AND having priority AND still having enough power to one or two shot anything that doesn't resist it? Good golly I never thought I'd see the day where e-killer Arceus dropped to OU.
Thanks for saving me from having to type that up again myself. Yeah, Deoxys-S is so great that I can barely ever justify any Choice Scarfer over it. The only reasons I would consider one are U-turn, better STAB type, or extra stuff like Rapid Spin on Excadrill. As a fast revenge killer, it's really hard for any choice scarfer to be as good as Deoxys-S.
Choice Scarf seems to be becoming the niche that priority once was, something that's nice to have from time to time but no matter how many life orbs you gave your Breloom it wasn't going to put more work in than specs Keldeo and whatever took out Specs Keldeo after something died before your entire team fell apart. So todays "specs Keldeo" is something more along the line of ridiculous power house megas that will deal over 100% to about every mon that doesn't have intimidate with max hp and def, and then has a coverage move to OHKO it anyways, as well as Talonflames priority. So really the only things we're labeling as something under "need" on it team is the same thing we've always needed, counters and checks/revenge killers for the top threats in the meta-game, Tyranitar may be used to counter Talonflame, but surprisingly a scarfed Tyranitar can outpace Mega Pinsir and kill it with Stone Miss before either getting destroyed by Close Combat or Earthquake. He isn't the fastest in the game by any means, still being outsped by Alakazam even with the scarf, but really his only requirements for it is that he can handle 2 top tier threats, but still has to watch out for the rising of Mach Punch and Belly Jet.
Just on the topic of Mach Punch and Belly Jet, sashed Breloom and Belly Jet Azumarill have been pretty common since the start of the generation. The fact that you can swap an Azumarill into some feared fighting type such as Conkeldurr and get a free Belly Drum with a Sitrus Berry recovering the majority of your HP and the only thing that seems to stop this once it come up isn't some scarfed Garchomp that wants to break that last 50% with Earthquake, but something more along the lines of the bravest bird, sash living a hit depending on how many hazards you can defog away, and trying to have a hard counter just for this situation. No matter what scarfer you use you can't say you'll revenge kill Azumarill at +6 unless you run something with supreme bulk and a resistance to water, so why is it incredibly necessary to have 400+ speed scarfers, it seems other than priority the only thing you need for a successful scarfer is being faster than a fully speed invested base 110 with a check/counter to Greninja or having something a little bit faster that can handle Greninja on its own.
Just on the topic of Mach Punch and Belly Jet, sashed Breloom and Belly Jet Azumarill have been pretty common since the start of the generation. The fact that you can swap an Azumarill into some feared fighting type such as Conkeldurr and get a free Belly Drum with a Sitrus Berry recovering the majority of your HP and the only thing that seems to stop this once it come up isn't some scarfed Garchomp that wants to break that last 50% with Earthquake, but something more along the lines of the bravest bird, sash living a hit depending on how many hazards you can defog away, and trying to have a hard counter just for this situation. No matter what scarfer you use you can't say you'll revenge kill Azumarill at +6 unless you run something with supreme bulk and a resistance to water, so why is it incredibly necessary to have 400+ speed scarfers, it seems other than priority the only thing you need for a successful scarfer is being faster than a fully speed invested base 110 with a check/counter to Greninja or having something a little bit faster that can handle Greninja on its own.
Ok, to be fair, espeed dragonite is nothing new and has been both around and viable ever since dragon dance became a thing, if not sooner. But yeah, I think that the reason why priority is so much more dominate this gen then any previous gen is one thing and one thing only, power. Last gen, unless you're hitting for SE damage or are boosted, even smeargle could survive a decent majority of priority thrown at it, let alone something with non-laughable bulk, and still have a chance to retaliate (ok, that was an exaggeration there). However, today we have things like azumarill, talonflame and pretty much every much every single OU mega not named mega-heracross, who even unboosted, can 2HKO or even OHKO many faster threats before they even have a chance to move.
Y'see, once upon a time there was this idea, maybe even a philosophy, for how this kind of stuff worked. Faster pokemon tended to be frailer, meaning that they die more easily. To make up for this, they made it so that faster pokemon would usually get the first hit, and then they gave them enough power to be able to two shot a decent(but not overwhelming) variety of slower pokemon. To counteract this, they made bulky, slower pokemon that were able to take a few hits from these frailer pokemon, given a favorable matchup, and then hit back just as hard, usually harder given the opponents frailty. Priority has been around since gen 1, but it has always represented a significant tradeoff, trade away power for the ability to circumvent this balance, use a weaker move that might not even be able to kill the faster target, but you get to go before him, so if he has prior damage, you win. In my opinion, the existence of this option was good for the meta. Gen IV started changing this by introducing Sucker Punch and Technician (I guess e-killer arceus technically goes here too), giving mons priority that actually had power and were not just considerably weaker moves that had little use outside of finishing things. However, both of these had some considerable drawbacks, the former only worked if the opponent is about to attack, and the latter had some distribution issues, the best user being forced to use a STAB move with some pretty awful coverage from both a super effective and neutral standpoint (and yet he still became a premier OU poke that gen, granted for several reasons, but technician was one of them without a doubt). Last gen was largely the same, sucker punch got a few new users, and so did technician, but besides those two, priority was generally not used to sweep or for immediate raw power but to revenge kill. Needless to say that Gen VI gave priority some massively powerful new users, the likes of which simply have not been seen in OU (pretty sure noone has ever considered testing Arceus or Rayquaza in OU). It's telling when priority is Talonflame's go-to move even when it already outspeeds its target.
The best scarcer ime tends to be an unexpected one. Lando, Rotom, etc can do some real damage because the other guy won't expect it.
I really dislike scarf Exca right now tho. Hazards Deo-D and air balloon Aegislash are a pretty common core, and they run train on any team that relies on scarf Excadrill to remove hazards. Maybe it could work better if you had a backup hazard remover + Aegislash switch in like Mandibuzz, but I just feel like Lando-T is a better physical scarfer if you're not utilizing rapid spin.
I really dislike scarf Exca right now tho. Hazards Deo-D and air balloon Aegislash are a pretty common core, and they run train on any team that relies on scarf Excadrill to remove hazards. Maybe it could work better if you had a backup hazard remover + Aegislash switch in like Mandibuzz, but I just feel like Lando-T is a better physical scarfer if you're not utilizing rapid spin.
Wait until Trex gets Head Smash, scarf that beast and wreck havoc in the OU metagame - seriously, I even had SOME success with Rock Polish Aggron(and it is a much worse scarfer, slower, and finally a worse typing for OU)
And just a reminder: Scarf Tyrantrum has 253 speed with Jolly+208 EV's, that means with a scarf it is faster than GRENINJA. Full Attack investment and some defensive investment(48 points in HP)
Here are some calcs against frailer threats:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 322-381 (112.5 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 1236-1456 (414.7 - 488.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 92-108 (29 - 34%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 796-940 (292.6 - 345.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 42-50 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO
And I think this is somewhat impressive:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 151-178 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
And just a reminder: Scarf Tyrantrum has 253 speed with Jolly+208 EV's, that means with a scarf it is faster than GRENINJA. Full Attack investment and some defensive investment(48 points in HP)
Here are some calcs against frailer threats:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 322-381 (112.5 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 1236-1456 (414.7 - 488.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 92-108 (29 - 34%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 796-940 (292.6 - 345.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 42-50 (13.2 - 15.7%) -- possible 7HKO
And I think this is somewhat impressive:
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 151-178 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
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errrrr Trex DOES get head smash, just no rock head. So at the moment, Tyrantrum is a suicide scarfer, which isn't horrid since as you noted, he can really wreck some stuff before going down.
So real question of the day, why use scarf Trex over Scarfpardos? At max speed with jolly, rampardos hits 354 speed with a scarf, which while shy of Greninja, is enough to outspeed the rest of the threats listed except talonflame (who cares about outspeeding talonflame?). He also gets sheer force and elemental punches, which are superior to the elemental fangs. One thing that TRex does have going for it is infinitely better defenses, but as a revenge killer, taking hits isn't too terribly high on the priority list imo.
So real question of the day, why use scarf Trex over Scarfpardos? At max speed with jolly, rampardos hits 354 speed with a scarf, which while shy of Greninja, is enough to outspeed the rest of the threats listed except talonflame (who cares about outspeeding talonflame?). He also gets sheer force and elemental punches, which are superior to the elemental fangs. One thing that TRex does have going for it is infinitely better defenses, but as a revenge killer, taking hits isn't too terribly high on the priority list imo.
I really like what's being said in this thread. Jukain and Jaroda have really good points especially. Surprise speed is what I'm most interested in with the use of scarf. Getting an unsuspecting jump on a lot of the offensive tier through your item can be so useful. I posted this in the creative/underrated sets thread but I think it's worth posting here as well. Besides being a set for a pokemon, I think it's relevant in that it highlights some of the ways scarfers can succeed right now. Here it is:
I've been really struggling to find a choice scarf user I really like. Lando-T is a great one, but I was getting tired of falling back on him. Two of the biggest issues scarf users face right now is the prevalence of high powered priority and the general bulkiness of sweepers, who often refuse to be so easily answered by a frail scarfer. While I'm not sure how much the following set answers the second problem, it provides a nice solution to the first. Here it is:
Cloyster@Choice Scarf
Ability:Skill Link
EVs: 252 Att / 252 Spe / 4 Def Jolly (If you don't care about outspeeding greninja go for adamant. The power boost is really nice for things like kyurem-B)
-Icicle Spear
-Rock Blast
-Razor Shell
-Ice Shard
There are two main reasons I picked cloyster as a scarfer: high powered ice stab and awesome physical bulk. This guy can survive a mixed sub Kyurem B's fusion bolt with no investment. His physical bulk and typing allows him to shrug off all of the priority seeing use right now at least once (without lucarionite, vacuum wave is nonexistent and this guy can even take an LO breloom mach punch). Next, a 125 BP ice stab is just great in any meta since the dawn of dragons and is maintaining its power through the age of flying types. By using choice scarf I try to utilize it in a way that I find more beneficial than as a sweeping move. There are too many good steel types around for me to feel comfortable sweeping with this guy. The surprise factor of his scarf often lets me get the first revenge for free, without worrying about switches to pesky steels. Rock Blast is a really nice high powered coverage move to have, espeically for kyurem-B behind a sub, but for the most part it's icicle spear you'll be clicking. Razor Shell is used even less, but it comes in handy every now and then and makes sure fewer things wall him completely (waves fist at heatran). The fourth slot is mostly filler but I like ice shard for it's ability to let me take out dragonite/salamence after multiple dd's with rocks up. It can also be useful for getting a weak Thundurus-I if you really want to avoid thunderwave, although the only time you'd have to worry about thunderwave over thunderbolt before you've revealed your set is if cloyster has no damage on him and they are fearful of a sash smash. Which actually brings me to a pretty interesting point I've found in playing with scarf cloyster. Letting your opponent have rocks up before you reveal cloyster's set can be very useful. A damaged cloyster is automatically less dangerous to the opponent because it can't rely on sash and manage a kill or two. With rocks damage cloyster looks like a sitting duck to a lot of pokemon it destroys with a scarf. It's a balancing act though. If you need cloyster to come in multiple times it's better to get rid of the rocks, but I've nabbed so many kills because of the rocks damage making me look useless. Because of that I get the kill instead of the opponent switching to their cloyster counter/check. Once you've revealed the set I'd say it's in your best interest to remove rocks, but before then they can come in handy. A 76% closyter is still hardy enough to take on a lot of mons through priority.
This is definitely not the end all be all of scarfers. Cloyster has a number of weaknesses most notably being his relative slowness as a scarfer. I rely on other team members for checking speed boosting sweepers on the team I'm using him so this has not proven to be as much of a problem. This guy is used to prey on non boosting offensive mons and the general weakness the meta has to fast ice stab.
This guy is in many ways like Darmanitan and Diggersby, although u-turn is sorely missed. For now, his surprise factor has been making up for the lack of momentum winning. I find fewer things run from cloyster, allowing him to nab many of the kills he's designed too.
I've been really struggling to find a choice scarf user I really like. Lando-T is a great one, but I was getting tired of falling back on him. Two of the biggest issues scarf users face right now is the prevalence of high powered priority and the general bulkiness of sweepers, who often refuse to be so easily answered by a frail scarfer. While I'm not sure how much the following set answers the second problem, it provides a nice solution to the first. Here it is:
Cloyster@Choice Scarf
Ability:Skill Link
EVs: 252 Att / 252 Spe / 4 Def Jolly (If you don't care about outspeeding greninja go for adamant. The power boost is really nice for things like kyurem-B)
-Icicle Spear
-Rock Blast
-Razor Shell
-Ice Shard
There are two main reasons I picked cloyster as a scarfer: high powered ice stab and awesome physical bulk. This guy can survive a mixed sub Kyurem B's fusion bolt with no investment. His physical bulk and typing allows him to shrug off all of the priority seeing use right now at least once (without lucarionite, vacuum wave is nonexistent and this guy can even take an LO breloom mach punch). Next, a 125 BP ice stab is just great in any meta since the dawn of dragons and is maintaining its power through the age of flying types. By using choice scarf I try to utilize it in a way that I find more beneficial than as a sweeping move. There are too many good steel types around for me to feel comfortable sweeping with this guy. The surprise factor of his scarf often lets me get the first revenge for free, without worrying about switches to pesky steels. Rock Blast is a really nice high powered coverage move to have, espeically for kyurem-B behind a sub, but for the most part it's icicle spear you'll be clicking. Razor Shell is used even less, but it comes in handy every now and then and makes sure fewer things wall him completely (waves fist at heatran). The fourth slot is mostly filler but I like ice shard for it's ability to let me take out dragonite/salamence after multiple dd's with rocks up. It can also be useful for getting a weak Thundurus-I if you really want to avoid thunderwave, although the only time you'd have to worry about thunderwave over thunderbolt before you've revealed your set is if cloyster has no damage on him and they are fearful of a sash smash. Which actually brings me to a pretty interesting point I've found in playing with scarf cloyster. Letting your opponent have rocks up before you reveal cloyster's set can be very useful. A damaged cloyster is automatically less dangerous to the opponent because it can't rely on sash and manage a kill or two. With rocks damage cloyster looks like a sitting duck to a lot of pokemon it destroys with a scarf. It's a balancing act though. If you need cloyster to come in multiple times it's better to get rid of the rocks, but I've nabbed so many kills because of the rocks damage making me look useless. Because of that I get the kill instead of the opponent switching to their cloyster counter/check. Once you've revealed the set I'd say it's in your best interest to remove rocks, but before then they can come in handy. A 76% closyter is still hardy enough to take on a lot of mons through priority.
This is definitely not the end all be all of scarfers. Cloyster has a number of weaknesses most notably being his relative slowness as a scarfer. I rely on other team members for checking speed boosting sweepers on the team I'm using him so this has not proven to be as much of a problem. This guy is used to prey on non boosting offensive mons and the general weakness the meta has to fast ice stab.
This guy is in many ways like Darmanitan and Diggersby, although u-turn is sorely missed. For now, his surprise factor has been making up for the lack of momentum winning. I find fewer things run from cloyster, allowing him to nab many of the kills he's designed too.
Scarf can bring human fashion..EOZY
Here you will like him.
EOZY
EOZY
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