These both look great, but just one little nitpick- wasn't Meteor Mash nerfed to 90 BP? So 90+STAB (45)=135...Correct me if I'm wrong :pMore perhaps viable sets
Latios
Item: Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA, 252 Spd, 4 Spdef
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power Fire/Thunderbolt
- Trick
- Draco Meteor
Ok, I guess that although I mentioned this pokemon in the OP, I didn't explain it. So, Psyshock is a great STAB move that breaks through special walls, most notably blissey. Despite the -10 BP drop, it still is nonetheless a great move. HP Fire covers steel types, that Latios would normally be walled against. Under normal circumstances, this may not be an awesome move, but with specs, it has a decent boost in its power. Thunderbolt can also be a viable option that can still hit steel types neutrally. Trick is a very notable move here, as it can potentially stop a physical sweeper from doing much in terms of damage. Draco Meteor is Latios's most powerful move, and is 195 BP with STAB, which is pretty powerful.
Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 330-390 (90.6 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Latias: 384-452 (105.4 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Ferrothorn: 344-408 (97.7 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 417-492 (99.2 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 180-212 (45.6 - 53.8%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
I can't believe it's notbuttersorcery!
Metagross
Item: Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk, 162 HP, 92 Spd
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Hammer Arm/Ice Punch/Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt/Pursuit
Although not packing a bullet punch as strong as Scizor's, Metagross certainly deserves a mention as a choice band user. One trait that Metagross packs is decent bulk, with 80/130/90 defenses. This gives Metagross the chance to stay on the field longer. STAB Meteor Mash has 150 BP, making it the strongest move that Metagross has that he can use effectively. Bullet Punch can be used as Scizor uses it, or it can be used to finish off opponents. Hammer Arm covers other Steel Types, but it draws back Speed, which can be a problem for Metagross, outspeeding other Base 70s. Ice Punch can cover Dragon/Flying Types, which is always nice. Earthquake gives coverage, and is a good alternative to Hammer Arm, not lowering speed. However, Hammer Arm covers Dark Types, that Earthquake doesn't, especially now that steel doesn't resist dark anymore. Zen Headbutt is great STAB move that has a nice chance to flinch, but Pursuit can help trap a switching opponent sensing a Bullet Punch.
I want to add these to the OP, but I want to hear everyone's opinions first. :]
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Item Choice Band and Choice Specs (Viable Users, and Current Role in the Metagame)
- Thread starter The Shellder Smuggler
- Start date
- Status
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
Lemme check real quick
EDIT: It was nerfed. Fuck you gamefreak.
EDITEDIT: I changed the data in the set :]
First of all, Choice Specs Latios is really, really bad in this metagame, as you are literally asking to be Pursuit trapped by Aegislash or Bisharp. It offers a minimal increase in power over the standard LO set, while completely eliminating all of the utility you have when using Defog, Roost, or Earthquake. Also, at least with LO you can Earthquake Aegislash if it's at low health, whereas if you're locked into Draco Meteor (read: really bad idea) Aegislash can come in on you and Pursuit trap you, or dent a switch-in with Shadow Ball, while Bisharp can again, Pursuit trap you, or cripple a switch-in with Knock Off.
Then we get to Metagross, which by itself is a really bad choice in OU as you're slow, have poor coverage, and are weak to again, Aegislash and Bisharp, which can again, Pursuit trap you if you are locked into Meteor Mash or Zen Headbutt or anything that isn't Earthquake. CB Metagross has these problems, but it also faces competition with Pokemon like Scizor as a Choice Band user, which even then isn't the best way of using Scizor due to the current shifts in the metagame. At least it's Bullet Punch is actually powerful. In short, I would definitely not use either Choice Specs Latios or Choice Band Metagross.
Now for some of the other Pokemon in the OP.
Machamp is terrible as a CB user, I don't know why there's a sprite for it.
In terms of Pokemon you mention, Sharpedo is also terrible with CB, it literally should only be used as a LO cleaner which takes advantage of Speed Boost and its nice STAB combination. With Choice Band, you give up the ability to clean teams late-game, and you also give up Destiny Bond, one of the main reasons to use Sharpedo over another late-game cleaner such as Azumarill, or even Greninja.
Scizor definitely wants Knock Off over Pursuit not only for the coverage, but mainly cause it helps with Skarmory and Heatran, as they don't want Leftovers gone.
I don't know why you'd use CB Haxorus with CB Kyurem-B available, which isn't that good in itself, as it doesn't really want to be locked into any of its moves. You can say Iron Tail, but Kyurem-B has ways of dealing with Fairy-types (see: Fusion Bolt) and being locked into a Steel-type move is really, really bad.
CB Talonflame is good, everyone uses it, though you don't need full Speed unless you really want to tie with other Talonflames. Also mention Sleep Talk.
CB Azumarill is fine, except the EVs are weird. You want to be able to outspeed either min Tyranitar or CB Scizor. I'd just go to min TTar, for which you need 92 Speed EVs.
Mention Final Gambit on CB Raptor to lure in Skarmory and leave it weak enough for virtually any physical sweeper to break through.
CB Nite is fine, just deslash Thunder Punch (you'd much rather have Fire Punch or a safe STAB in Dragon Claw.
CB Infernape isn't that good, but I don't really care if you include it or not.
CB Crawdaunt is a monster, keep it.
I don't know why you'd use CB Garchomp when the mixed set is a much better wallbreaker, which is the only reason why you'd use CB Chomp in the first place. You need to be able to get past Skarmory.
CB Tyranitar wants Ice Punch for Gliscor and Landorus-T, it doesn't need Superpower.
I may comment on Choice Specs later.
Then we get to Metagross, which by itself is a really bad choice in OU as you're slow, have poor coverage, and are weak to again, Aegislash and Bisharp, which can again, Pursuit trap you if you are locked into Meteor Mash or Zen Headbutt or anything that isn't Earthquake. CB Metagross has these problems, but it also faces competition with Pokemon like Scizor as a Choice Band user, which even then isn't the best way of using Scizor due to the current shifts in the metagame. At least it's Bullet Punch is actually powerful. In short, I would definitely not use either Choice Specs Latios or Choice Band Metagross.
Now for some of the other Pokemon in the OP.
Machamp is terrible as a CB user, I don't know why there's a sprite for it.
In terms of Pokemon you mention, Sharpedo is also terrible with CB, it literally should only be used as a LO cleaner which takes advantage of Speed Boost and its nice STAB combination. With Choice Band, you give up the ability to clean teams late-game, and you also give up Destiny Bond, one of the main reasons to use Sharpedo over another late-game cleaner such as Azumarill, or even Greninja.
Scizor definitely wants Knock Off over Pursuit not only for the coverage, but mainly cause it helps with Skarmory and Heatran, as they don't want Leftovers gone.
I don't know why you'd use CB Haxorus with CB Kyurem-B available, which isn't that good in itself, as it doesn't really want to be locked into any of its moves. You can say Iron Tail, but Kyurem-B has ways of dealing with Fairy-types (see: Fusion Bolt) and being locked into a Steel-type move is really, really bad.
CB Talonflame is good, everyone uses it, though you don't need full Speed unless you really want to tie with other Talonflames. Also mention Sleep Talk.
CB Azumarill is fine, except the EVs are weird. You want to be able to outspeed either min Tyranitar or CB Scizor. I'd just go to min TTar, for which you need 92 Speed EVs.
Mention Final Gambit on CB Raptor to lure in Skarmory and leave it weak enough for virtually any physical sweeper to break through.
CB Nite is fine, just deslash Thunder Punch (you'd much rather have Fire Punch or a safe STAB in Dragon Claw.
CB Infernape isn't that good, but I don't really care if you include it or not.
CB Crawdaunt is a monster, keep it.
I don't know why you'd use CB Garchomp when the mixed set is a much better wallbreaker, which is the only reason why you'd use CB Chomp in the first place. You need to be able to get past Skarmory.
CB Tyranitar wants Ice Punch for Gliscor and Landorus-T, it doesn't need Superpower.
I may comment on Choice Specs later.
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
Thanks for feedback.
Chadtherest00
Wi-Fi Blacklisted
I went to a tourney at my locals where I stayed choice locked into boom burst n with help from hazards
I won the match it's actually a very powerful move
Choice Specs Latios isn't really terrible, it just has trouble with Aegislash and Bisharp everywhere. However, Aegislash don't always carry Pursuit, and the same is with Bisharp. I think Choice Specs Latios should still be put into this thread, as once its checks are gone it can really do lots of damage.
I agree with the fact that Specs Latios is decent, especially with Trick, but Latios is MOSTLY used because it's a defogger that has a lot of synergy with Pokemon like Talonflame or Mega Pinsir who greatly appreciate his prowess to beat out Skarmory, Landorus-T, Hippowdown, etc. while being able to get rid of hazards which works really well. With specs you have to get rid of defog which is kind of a big deal for most teams (still decent though). Also, most if not all Bisharp's carry Pursuit, so idk what you're talking about there.
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
what the hell
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
I request that specs Gengar and Alakazam be taken off the specs sets and viable list. Gengar is mostly known for his great speed and power combined with utility moves like Sub, Pain Split or Destiny Bond, and is honored for that. Giving it specs literally takes away it's 3 best set options: Sub 3 attacks, Destiny Bond and the coveted SubPainSplit.
Alakazam has freaking magic guard life orb which is a better specs already due to switching up moves, and even then that set is all fire power no utility, so there's the focus sash and trace abuse mega sets.
Alakazam has freaking magic guard life orb which is a better specs already due to switching up moves, and even then that set is all fire power no utility, so there's the focus sash and trace abuse mega sets.
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
zam isn't on the list anymore, and hasnt been for a couple of weeks
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Hm, I saw it up there while I was checking this thread out so my smogon is either fucked up or I'm fucked up
"edited: one minute ago" did YOU just take it down 1 minute and say it's been down for weeks or is that another edit.
(bird)jesus making posts at 5 in the morning just messes me up
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
I removed the set a couple of weeks ago dude
I was also editing one of the paragraphs
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
Since there was a lot of positive feedback on specs latios I added it to the thread. No one said anything good about metagross so i didnt add him
I don't understand why Sharpedo and Vaporeon are still listed as good choice users seeing that there have been multiple people repeatedly saying that these sets are terrible. And they really are. Sharpedo is only usable (barely) because of its sweeping utility late game. In order to do this, it needs to take advantage of its unique stabs, and has to use protect in order to safety get enough speed to start sweeping. Choice band prevents Sharpedo from even doing this. Vaporeon is just straght up outclassed by Keldeo as a specs user, as it has no dual stab to take advantage of, is slow, and can't get around special walls.
Thats not even touching mons like Porygon-Z which is an awful specs user in OU (bad bulk, stab, and speed), and I'm surprised no one else has said anything about it yet.
Thats not even touching mons like Porygon-Z which is an awful specs user in OU (bad bulk, stab, and speed), and I'm surprised no one else has said anything about it yet.
The Shellder Smuggler
Banned deucer.
changed
Gothitelle is a decent specs mon. The only fault is that it traps what it needs to and only what it needs to. Meaning everything besides physical walls it will struggle with and it is extremely prone to pursuit trapping. But if you play well with it you will be rewarded heavily.
Gothitelle @ choice specs
Ability: shadow tag
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
--Psyshock/psychic
- Thunderbolt
- energy ball/hp ice/trick/hp fire
- energy ball/hp ice/trick/hp fire
The moves ultimately depend on what you to remove. If you hate rotom w and quagaire messing with your mega pinsir or sd garchomp, run energy ball. Need landorus or gliscor gone? Hp ice. Pretty self explanatory.
Gothitelle @ choice specs
Ability: shadow tag
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
--Psyshock/psychic
- Thunderbolt
- energy ball/hp ice/trick/hp fire
- energy ball/hp ice/trick/hp fire
The moves ultimately depend on what you to remove. If you hate rotom w and quagaire messing with your mega pinsir or sd garchomp, run energy ball. Need landorus or gliscor gone? Hp ice. Pretty self explanatory.
I 100% agree. Specs Gothitelle is a fantastic trapper and overall Mon ATM. But, trick should be standalone and not slashed. Tricking specs to a support Pokemon is so good, and is much more valuable than an extra coverage move.
Like I said, it's up to what you need. If you have a lot of physical attackers, tricking a special wall won't help as much since gothy beats most physical walls without trick anyways.
I personally run trick most of the time but it's not always necessary and the extra coverage can come in handy sometimes.
I love how players like you have become so rampant and dominant at Smogon that the staff has literally abandoned the forums to create Victory Road, just to have some slight hope of retaining some decent competitive Pokemon discussion.
Well, Bisharp sometimes go for Iron Head instead of all Dark Moves, and even if Pursuit is really common then a teammate can take care of Bisharp.
Life Orb Iron Head decimates Latios, so yeah, Bisharp is a pretty surefire check, and in certain cases, counter to Latios. It just can't switch in if the Latios is carrying HP Fighting/Fire--once it's in safely, Sucker Punch/Pursuit makes it irrelevant.
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 220-259 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Last edited:
Dunno if anyone mentioned it, but:
Dragonite @ Choice Band
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Ability: Multiscale
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Outrage/Dragon Claw
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
Doesn't need any explanation imo
The set wrecks and tears apart pokemon, and nothing really can stand up to it's sheer power right off the bat.
With Multiscale as well, it also helps take on other pokemon it couldn't normally deal with like Landorus-I (With HP Ice), Keldeo (Icy Wind) etc...
Dragonite @ Choice Band
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Ability: Multiscale
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Outrage/Dragon Claw
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
Doesn't need any explanation imo
The set wrecks and tears apart pokemon, and nothing really can stand up to it's sheer power right off the bat.
With Multiscale as well, it also helps take on other pokemon it couldn't normally deal with like Landorus-I (With HP Ice), Keldeo (Icy Wind) etc...
greninja could be choice banded if a focus shash is taken up, though it maybe common knowledge by now, greninja is a good physical attacker as he is a special, choice band protean u turn could possibly make him the best scout in the game (arguably) and also along with a charizard killer, rock slide, and aerial ace and waterfall for type coverage
- Status