Charizard X [2/3]

[asterat]

Why does it run max speed, and where is bulky ddance? By far the best dd user, not arguably.

 

[Johny Cid]

With Adamant, I think maybe max speed on the offensive DD is to outspeed Scarfed Rotom-W at +1, which does 59.9 - 70.7% damage with Hydro Pump, that can kill you if you Blitzed already. On the other hand, I've seen very few of those... very few...

 

[PurpleCordial]

Bulky DD set:

"evs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd"
"- With 120 Spd you outspeed everything up to 88 Spd Naive Landorus-T."

 

[Martin]

Bulky DD set:

"evs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spd"
"- With 120 Spd you outspeed everything up to 88 Spd Naive Landorus-T."

you have given 112 speed EVs in one line and 120 in the other.

 

[Srn]

you have given 112 speed EVs in one line and 120 in the other.

I think we can all see that. He was trying to point out a mistake in the analysis. (Which has now been fixed) :I

 

[PurpleCordial]

you have given 112 speed EVs in one line and 120 in the other.

As said above, I was quoting what was on the analysis so Subject 18 could fix it up

 

[TURBODERP]

For the Bulky WoW set, is the main goal to outspeed Excadrill? IIRC there was very similar set that enabled MegaZard X to never be 2HKO'd by 4 SpA Rotom-W. Are those pretty much the same EVs?

 

[PurpleCordial]

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Charizard X: 127-150 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You almost have to go max SDef to avoid the 2hko after sr

 

[Jukain]

Bulky WoW should be the first set IMO. It is the set used most in high-level competitive play, mainly due to how common its checks/counters have become and overall utility of the set. DD is taking somewhat of a back seat.

 

[TURBODERP]

4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Charizard X: 127-150 (35.3 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You almost have to go max SDef to avoid the 2hko after sr

Probably not worth it since you want to keep rocks clear anyways when using Zard X. Thanks for the calc!

 

[Johny Cid]

Bulky WoW should be the first set IMO. It is the set used most in high-level competitive play, mainly due to how common its checks/counters have become and overall utility of the set. DD is taking somewhat of a back seat.

Yes, this is very true... I'm not the most skilled player, but it's not uncommon for a team to have 2 mons stopping a Zard +1 sweep and I'm not talking about setting up, as DD is one of the best moves at that. Despite having written a post declaring how good Flare Blitz was, DD Zard's most viable attempt at success is with 3 attacking moves, namely Fire Punch, Dragon Claw and Earthquake.

 

[Selflessly]

Shouldn't Dclaw also be slashed with Tail to make use of the speed while still hurting a lot of mons due to Stab+Tough claws still doing a shitton without investment on the wisp set?

 

[Johny Cid]

Also, is mixed ZardX too outclassed by MegaChomp and ZardY as a wall-breaker to not deserve a mention? I think its extra speed over Chomp and STAB Dragon move over ZardY may give it a niche as an all-attacking wall-breaker. Something like:

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 Spd / 156 Atk / 100 SAtk
Naive Nature
- Overheat
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch / Flare Blitz / Dragon Dance

100 SpA is almost arbitrary, but in theory it gives you a tiny chance of 2HKO Hippowdon with 2 Overheats. On the last slot, Thunder Punch hits Azumarill, Flare Blitz must never be disregarded and DD can come in handy late-game for some reason.

 

[Ash Borer]

Fire Blast is better on mixed zard X as two fire blasts are stronger than 2 overheats. Outrage is also necessary to 2hko quags and chansey I believe.

Mixed mega zard X is actually a pretty legit set, I think. Fire blast is better at beating phys def clef, hippo, lando, and a bunch of stuff that can take a flare blitz. I'll come up with some calcs later.

 

[Magcargo]

Bulky WoW should be the first set IMO. It is the set used most in high-level competitive play, mainly due to how common its checks/counters have become and overall utility of the set. DD is taking somewhat of a back seat.

Dragon Dance Charizard X is the set that has impacted teambuilding and the metagame the most not to mention that it is still an excellent set, similar to Geomancy Xerneas. I think it deserves being the first set.

 

[Gary]

Bulky WoW should be the first set IMO. It is the set used most in high-level competitive play, mainly due to how common its checks/counters have become and overall utility of the set. DD is taking somewhat of a back seat.

Agreeing with Magcargo 2 and Dice (IRC yesterday) on this one. While Bulky Zard X is an excellent set and has been receiving a lot of usage in lately, it's definitely not its most successful set. The Dragon Dance set is not only one of the most dangerous sweepers in the metagame, but it's also pretty versatile, having the ability to go a bulkier route and use moves such as ThunderPunch or Earthquake to get around its checks and counters, making it a challenge to work around at times. I'm definitely not saying that the Bulky Zard X isn't a good set, because I've personally used it to amazing success and seen it do massive work in SPL, but the DD set is by far what defines Zard X as one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame, and I think the meta defining set should always be the first listed set.

I don't remember if this was sorted out on IRC or not, but just wanted to make sure if you weren't already convinced.

 

[Punchshroom]

Wouldn't the alternate EV spread for DD XZard classify as a sort of bulky DD set spread (even the bulky spread does not run so little Attack EVs)? Or is the difference between them the way they play (DD dances once and sweeps, bulky DD tries to go for more)?

 

[Kavatika]

umm 88 Spe+ lando-t hits 264 speed and 112 Spe neutral dragonzard hits 264. it needs it's speed upped to 116 speed to outspeed that lando-t variant

 

[Fuzznip]

I think bulky DD is actually one of the most useful and successful sets in the metagame right now. I was using a far more specially defensive build, though, as Zard becomes a flippin' tank and can boost in the face of a ton of threats. It still hits disgustingly hard too. I don't have the EV spread on me though so I'll bring it up afterwards.

 

[Amaan]

Is it worth it to run Fire Punch over Flare Blitz? I don't really see the advantage. You miss alot of kos and and you can roost off the damage anyways.

 

[Subject 18]

I explained the advantages of using Fire Punch over Flare Blitz.

- Fire Punch is an option over Flare Blitz. It is weaker, but you won't have a great need for Roost and tends to be better for late game sweeping where you don't want to deal with massive Flare Blitz recoil that will cut your sweep short.

 

[Seth Vilo]

For the Bulky DD set, there are a few EV issues. There is the already mentioned fact that the 112 Spe does not in fact outrun Niave 88 Spe Landorus-T; they both land at 264 Speed with those spreads. The HP EV's also do not do fully as promised, still giving Rotom-W a chance to 2HKO. It's a small chance, yes, but it's still there:

• 0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

A spread of 144 HP / 244 Atk / 4 SpD / 116 Spe accomplishes both of those goals, while keeping HP odd for SR and conserving the most Attack. Otherwise, you would have to bump HP up to 160 to still survive that hit from 0 SpA Rotom-W, leaving you with "only" 232 Atk EVs.

Side note: I'm still EV tinkering with Bulky DD Mega Char X myself. XD

 

[Subject 18]

Oh sorry about that. I fixed it. The EV spread is now 144 HP / 240 Atk / 8 SDef /116 Spd.

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 8 SpD Mega Charizard X: 141-166 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Wouldn't EVing Charizard X to outspeed 88 Spe Landorus-T be considered speed creeping and thus not allowed? If so, you could sort of weasel your way around it by adding just 4 more EVs, which lets you beat Jolly Mega Tyranitar. This gives you a benchmark to base the EV spread on that doesn't involve speed creeping, and you still outspeed 88 Spe Landorus-T as a result. Besides, being able to outspeed +0 Jolly Mega Tyranitar could have its uses anyways since it's a pretty legitimate threat in general.

 

[Seth Vilo]

Oh sorry about that. I fixed it. The EV spread is now 144 HP / 240 Atk / 8 SDef /116 Spd.

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 8 SpD Mega Charizard X: 141-166 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Why 8 SpD?

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard X: 141-166 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO