CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 6a - Ability Discussion

[Naxte]

and yes Volt Absorb seems a bit too much as we dont want an IMMUNITY to electric rather a resistance because then even IF CAP11 is paired with gyarados it wont be as effective, gyarados prefers an electric immunity on its partner rather than a resistance, see our point? our goal is for togekiss NOT gyarados, and with shockproof we're basically supporting togekiss MORE than we are gyarados. Plus CAP11 seems too bulky for the whole Volt Absorb thing.... Do you really want something with just about Base 80 Defenses and 90 HP to get a 50%(or is it 25%? im not sure) HP recover just like *snap* that?

I don't--I'm seen several people who are in favor of Shockproof, but I've yet to actually get a good explanation for this: why is Gyarados only interested in an immunity, but when it's a resistance, apparently Gyarados is no longer interested at all, but even though it's not good enough to make Gyarados interested, it apparently still works for Togekiss somehow?

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. The worries over Volt Absorb are due to how it makes CAP11 immune to Electric-attacks, which is very appealing to Gyarados, who is 4x weak to Electric, and thus puts CAP11 at risk of being a Gyarados partner.

But yet, when it turns from a resistance, Togekiss is still interested, but Gyarados isn't? Why is that? I mean, Volt Absorb is only a worry because it makes an appealing partner due to the Electric immunity. But isn't it the same with Shockproof? It may not be an immunity, but it doesn't need to be. After all, as you claim in your own post, Shockproof lets CAP11 take one of the most powerful Thunderbolts in OU, Zapdos's (out of common stuff, isn't like only Magnezone's better?), and be able to beat it up with Stone Edge. How is an ability that still lets CAP11 take one of the most powerful Electric attack in OU something that the 4x Electric-weak Gyarados suddenly wouldn't be interested in for a partner, under your logic?

After all, that's the point, isn't it? Volt Absorb is too much, because it lets CAP11 come in on any Electric-attack it wants, and beat up the user of it right after, which makes it way too appealing to Gyarados, to be used as a Togekiss partner. But yet, if Shockproof is still good enough to allow CAP11 to take the most powerful Tbolt in OU and beat up it's user, how is that any different? Volt Absorb may still be "better", but Shockproof is still doing everything that Gyarados could wish for and more apparently, as far as Electric-attacks are concerned, so that's not too relevant. I mean, if we were actually talking about abilities for Gyarados itself, then yeah, Gyarados would definitely be more interested in Volt Absorb than Shockproof. But since we're talking about abilities for CAP11, there doesn't seem to be too much of a difference between them, as far as Gyarados would be concerned as a partner.

Of course, as I've mentioned before (as others), all of this Gyarados-partner talk is pure silliness, really. And, if FlareBlitz is correct (don't have time to check; going off to get some dinner soon), it seems that your damage calcs may be wrong, which is just as bad for Togekiss as it is for Gyarados (after all, this thing is supposed to be a partner for Togekiss, and it won't really be doing a good job of that if it loses to Kiss's top counters), and even if he's not, I believe he does have a case that CAP11 may not end up with Stone Edge (not sure if it's required for Fighting-types and don't have time to check right now), and even if it is, it's still coming off CAP11's weaker offensive stat and Zapdos typically run a Physically-Defensive set, at least let time I checked, which isn't good, so it just doesn't seem that Shockproof is good enough to me.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Did you guys seriously just say what I think you said? I've already suggested (and been agreed with by another user) that we tailor Shockproof to include the effect of Limber (aka, paralysis immunity).

Read better.

Until Fuzznip approves of the new changes to the ability I'll be addressing the older version.

Every duo has its weaknesses. And when's the last time you've actually seen a LODos or SpecsJolt? They're extremely rare, and you can always slap a Swampert on your team if you're so worried about 'em.

I'm sorry, I thought we were attempting to actually help with the duo's Electric weakness through our ability. If you're going to handwave the issue by saying "hey guys every duo has its weaknesses it's all good" then why not just give this Oblivious or Cute Charm and resign ourselves to the fact that Jolteon and Zapdos crap all over it?
My point is that Shockproof does not propery fulfill its explicit goal of helping to counter Jolteon and Zapdos, and it's rather asinine to counter that argument with "it's fine if we lose to Jolteon and Zapdos".

Volt Absorb provides immunity to Electric attacks, something far more desirable to Gyarados than to Togekiss.

This has been stated before, and it still doesn't make sense. Obviously an Electric immunity is better than an Electric resistance, but why should that affect Gyarados any more than Togekiss?
Common users of Electric attacks are actually less likely to switch into Gyarados in the first place (due to Jolteon/Zapdos not particularly appreciating Waterfalls or boosted Stone Edge) whereas they love switching into Togekiss due to resisting its primary STAB and being neutral to most of its coverage options. So, on balance, Togekiss gets more STAB Electric moves aimed it than Gyarados does.

(I'm not taking random things like HP Electric from Vaporeon into account here because they do little damage to CAP11, immunity or resistance regardless.)

All this means Togekiss benefits more from a partner that can handle Electric attacks easier than Gyarados does.

That's a good thing, and should be reinforced by limiting CAP11's ability to tank Electric attacks, thus making it an even more undesirable Gyara partner. We want a Togekiss partner instead.

So the argument for Shockproof over Volt Absorb for CAP11 is "okay so CAP11 doesn't particularly help Gyarados but let's just make sure that it doesn't by unnecessarily crippling its ability to deal with powerful electric pokemon".
Excuse me if I'm not convinced.

Yes it can. A slightly modified Shockproof gives CAP11 enough Electric resistance to survive and KO common Togekiss checks (ie, Zapdos and Rotom-A), in addition to a Paralysis immunity.

Even assuming the modification goes through and is accepted by Fuzznip, I've rather clearly pointed out that it doesn't offer enough protection against LO Jolteon at all, and is also vulnerable to LO Zapdos unless we make rather specious assumptions like "we'll have stone edge and a life orb and a bunch of attack investment (CAP11 needs max ATK to guarantee a kill on offensive zapdos with stone edge)"

 

[DarkSlay]

I am really not seeing the appeal of Shockproof over Volt Absorb.

It loses one of the most important advantages of Volt Absorb (Thunderwave immunity), and although it has the whole "reduces speed disadvantage" thing a stage 1 speed drop combined with all your moves essentially having 75% accuracy is still a very detrimental thing.

That is what has been proposed so far, but the actual TWave solution has yet to be answered. Like I have previously stated, and like it has been discussed on IRC, it's possible for this ability to have full paralysis immunity with just an Electric resistance, thus making it "Limber+", which is entirely different than Volt Absorb's full immunity plus 25% health regeneration each Electric switch-in. If Shockproof is making the cut, there should be a discussion as to how it exactly handles TWave.

I believe X-Act should discuss what he believes to be broken or not broken in terms of how his ability handles TWave. Doug has already expressed how anything in between of "no immunity" and "immunity" is quite difficult to program, and if we're going through the trouble of reducing probabilities, we should just make it immune anyway.

And guess what? Despite having an Electric resistance we still lose to Jolteon and Zapdos if they carry a Life Orb. Jolteon's LO Thunderbolt -> HP Fighting is guaranteed a kill on CAP11. Zapdos' LO Thunderbolt -> Heat Wave is nearly guaranteed a kill, and it has the bulky to survive any of our attacks barring a random Stone Edge from Physical CAP11 (which...really should not exist). Even Specs Jolteon beats us unless we run at least 80 EVs in attack and use Close Combat (it has a good chance of surviving any LO-boosted special attack we're likely to get, barring Focus Blast which might not hit, and it also survives uninvested Close Combat around half the time).

Well, first off, if Jolteon is using HP Fighting, it is (once again) completely walled by Swampert and opposing Grounds. Many people underestimate just how much of a problem Swampert is to Jolteon, and I find it silly that Jolteon might run HP Fighting to deal with this duo at the expense of getting walled by a good number of Pokes. HP Grass and HP Ice are still superior to HP Fighting, even with the creation of this duo.

Secondly, Zapdos. Here's a neat statistic:

Zapdos | Item | Life Orb | 15.6

Life Orb is a rare item indeed on Zapdos. However, disregarding this fact, if it is indeed running a Life Orb, it's running 252 SpA / 252 Spe. CAP11 can outspeed and 2HKO with Dark Pulse after SR OR it can potentially OHKO it with HP Ice if SS is up, or if it takes prior damage. HP Ice also kind of makes sense on CAP11, since it can OHKO Gliscor, Dragonite, Flygon, and such.

I'm curious as to why people are choosing Shockproof in the first place. Is it because Volt Asorb s "too good"? That's really odd, because the only thing it helps with that Shockproof doesn't is Jolteon, Zapdos, and Thunderwave, all of which Togekiss needs massive help with. Seems we're erring on the side of not making this core "too good" and not only going with a custom ability (which is typically discouraged) but a custom ability that is unnecessarily inferior to an existing in-game ability. I just don't get it.

To be quite honest, I actually view this from the other side of the spectrum. Assuming Shockproof gets TWave immunity, the difference between it and Volt Absorb is a full immunity and 25% health regeneration. Is all of that 100% necessary on CAP11, which should not be focusing on switching into every single threat and OHKO'ing it? Remember, when this concept was created, it was decided that this CAP was going to be somewhat offensive. Adding a resistance won't stop it from getting KO'd, and the addition of 25% health regeneration each time it potentially switches in for free sounds to me like it just doesn't match the qualities CAP11 is supposed to produce. At that point, it just seems we're adding on Volt Absorb out of ease and not out of necessity to accomplish the concept. In short, Volt Drive is an ability that produces more than what CAP11 requires to succeed, and in the process, allows it to exceed expectations extraordinarily (yay alliteration! :D). Shockproof provides it with what it needs, which is not overpowering, but enough to make some sort of connection with Togekiss.

As for the custom ability being "discouraged", remember that Fuzznip has already accepted the foundation for Shockproof, so it is not discouraged from CAP11 as far as discussions and its viability is concerned. As long as the TL has agreed to place it in discussion, it's just as viable as any other ability.

 

[Gasoline]

It's because CAP11 cant continously switch into those electric attacks and take them for nothing, it still does take damage from them and gyarados wont like that because eventually from constant switch ins to CAP11 it will eventually faint to numerous T-Bolts and then gyarados is left in a hole where its open to take a T-Bolt, yet togekiss may not ALWAYS need to switch on a t-bolt, roost is there for a reason at points. The idea is because (in my opinion) mainly that Gyarados has no way to recover off electric moves yet togekiss does...
Let me say this... would you rather pair scizor with Heatran who has Flash Fire or Bronzong with Heatproof?

 

[FlareBlitz]

DrkSlay, I'm trying not to threadhog, but some of your arguments need to be addressed.

Who cares if CAP11 can 2hko Zapdos after SR? Zapdos kills it with Thunderbolt -> Heatwave before then since you're switching in. Unless, of course, CAP11 is immune to Thunderbolt...which is why Volt Absorb is better/necessary!

Yeah HP Fighting Jolteon is walled by Swampert but Swampert gets set up on by Skarmory and Skarmory is forced out by ScarfTran who's forced out by Suicune etc etc. Unless we want to theorymon an entire game with two equally matched teams here, we can only look at what Pokemon beat this core specifically. And while I would be completely okay with the core losing to electric types if we had said "all right, it's fine if this core loses to jolteon/zapdos", the explicit purpose of Shockproof is to deal with Electric types, which it does not do!

I would actually be fine with a custom ability that just grants flat immunity to electric damage instead of the healing, but I honestly think the healing does not make this "broken" by any means, so there's no need for that when we could just choose Volt Absorb.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

*Counter-Rant*

Three things:

1) Type synergy still draws CAP11 and Gyarados closer, which is why the limited (but adequet) Electric resistance is favorable.

2) Having only an Electric resistance and the inability to dispose of Jolteon and bulky-waters causes Electric-immune Pokemon that can (like E-vire and Jolteon) to remain the superior options over CAP11 for partnering with Gyarados, thus hindering CAP11's ability to partner with Gyarados and maintaining its ability to partner with Togekiss.

3) Gyarados more often DDs than attacks while its opponents switch.

Have a nice day, as I depart from this circling debate of largely personal opinions and laziness.

 

[Naxte]

It's because CAP11 cant continously switch into those electric attacks and take them for nothing, it still does take damage from them and gyarados wont like that because eventually from constant switch ins to CAP11 it will eventually faint to numerous T-Bolts and then gyarados is left in a hole where its open to take a T-Bolt, yet togekiss may not ALWAYS need to switch on a t-bolt, roost is there for a reason at points. The idea is because (in my opinion) mainly that Gyarados has no way to recover off electric moves yet togekiss does...

Ah, alright then; that makes a lot more sense. But still... nonetheless, does that matter? If CAP11 is able to beat Zapdos and Rotom, catching them when they switch-in or use a move like Roost for an opportunity to strike or whatever, there's no switching going on, so it doesn't matter. And if Pokemon like them can wear down CAP11 by switching in and out, that's as bad for Togekiss as it is for Zapdos. These are the Pokemon that CAP11 is supposed to help Togekiss beat, after all. If they still win against it through such a method, CAP11 isn't doing its job.

Volt Absorb may be nice for Gyarados, but regardless, it's also something that's very necessary for Togekiss. The real thing that will separate the two, and make it able to be Kiss's partner but not Gyarados's, will be the Pokemon that we make it able to handle. So long as CAP11 has troubles with Pokemon that bother Gyarados but not Togekiss as much, like Suicune and Vaporeon, even with Volt Absorb, I believe that we'll be able to make this thing more a partner for Togekiss, and not Gyarados, at least to the best degree that we're able to while also making it a very good partner for Togekiss. Not much more than that can be done because Gyarados and Togekiss do have similar weaknesses and thus some of the same enemies, so the best way we have of making it's one's partner but not the other is by focusing on Kiss's unique problems and ignoring those of Gyarados. That's the best shot we have, while also risking CAP11 not working well enough as a Togekiss partner at all, IMO.

 

[Chameleon]

For 1: With Shockproof The most CAP11 takes from Jolteon's or Zapdos' T-Bolt is only about 30% so T-Bolt cannot just about 3HKO CAP11 and i'm sure Jolteon wont be carrying HP Fighting unless its only carrying it to kill CAP11 and then Jolteon loses coverage on a lot and most Jolteon are Specs imo so they'll be locked into T-Bolt, Zapdos we outspeed with CAP11 so it takes a T-Bolt and then uses the ever so great Stone Edge D: and yes Volt Absorb seems a bit too much as we dont want an IMMUNITY to electric rather a resistance because then even IF CAP11 is paired with gyarados it wont be as effective, gyarados prefers an electric immunity on its partner rather than a resistance, see our point? our goal is for togekiss NOT gyarados, and with shockproof we're basically supporting togekiss MORE than we are gyarados. Plus CAP11 seems too bulky for the whole Volt Absorb thing.... Do you really want something with just about Base 80 Defenses and 90 HP to get a 50%(or is it 25%? im not sure) HP recover just like *snap* that?

Volt absorb and water absorb restore 25% health, which is a large difference in brokenness compared to 50%. Vaporeon has 130/60/95 defenses, 110 base special attack, and access to wish for recovery, but there are few complaints about it being too bulky for its power (granted, though, it's not a mixed sweeper).

I also am losing hope that the forces of "too much gyarados synergy must be avoided" and "gyara synergy is irrelevant" will be reconciled. Really I think it comes down to that, if we want to sacrifice togekiss synergy for fear of helping another pokemon too much, and this controversy will split the vote simply because it has not been officially clarified.

The difference between restoring damage from volt absorb and taking some from shockproof is huge in combination (gussing 40% on average?), so I am still behind volt absorb so we can maul jolteon and zapdos before they kill us with a potential HP fighting, Drill Peck, or any other move if they zap us on the switch-in. Or maybe even Expert Belt Electivire with Cross Chop, which we can just live through.

 

[capefeather]

Well, considering what I've seen Fuzznip say about the slate he's considering, as well has his rejection of Trace, I think that I can safely say that CAP 11 is getting an Electric resistance. At this point, I think that the most important aspects of the first ability have been dealt with, and the ability itself is not as much of a concern. However, for what I think will be my last post ITT, I'd like to address two insistent arguments that bug me deeply:

1. "Shockproof will help Gyarados less than Volt Absorb will."

Wait, what? I don't understand this at all. At all. How is an Electric resistance so different from an Electric immunity in terms of switching into and from a partner? This really doesn't make sense to me. The only thing I can think of is that you guys think Volt Absorb = Thunderbolt. Just... no.

2. "Volt Absorb = free healing!!!!"

No. Have you ever used a Volt Absorb Pokémon? That's not how it works! I'm addressing this more to the people who treat this game like a simplistic affair than to people who have actually thought about how the move works. I understand that there is informed concern about the ability, but this mentality of "oh noes I used a STAB super effective move and my opponent shouldn't be rewarded for predicting that!!!" is simply ridiculous.

First of all, Ice Beam has the same Base Power as Thunderbolt! This means that Starmie can still screw over the core. In fact, Jolteon's HP Ice and Starmie's Surf do enough to Togekiss that it will be spamming Roost for a while.

Second of all, CAP 11 isn't even that bulky! A lot of Machamp's effective bulk comes from its No Guard DynamicPunch confusing everything. CAP 11 is, in fact, less bulky than Togekiss is, and Togekiss has Roost!

Electric attacks are not the only thing that the opponent could possibly aim at Togekiss! Togekiss doesn't pose such a huge immediate threat that the opponent will be necessarily compelled to use Electric attacks blindly. If you really can't beat a Pokémon without spamming a super effective move, then I guess I'll be running over your teams with Heatran, Jolteon, Vaporeon, etc. later during CAP 11's testing...


P.S. For the last time, we need this Electric resistance! Some of you continue to suggest abilities that are, quite frankly, extremely situational and otherwise useless as far as the Togekiss + CAP 11 partnership is concerned. All this because you don't want CAP 11 to help Gyarados? Honestly, if this is what you're thinking, then I don't believe that you actually even care about Togekiss anymore. Please, let's not have to rename this CAP to "Zapdos's Perfect Mate" or "Rotom-A's Perfect Mate" or even "Perfect Coverage Sweeper".

P.S.S. The burden of proof is on the custom ability's side to exist. With any CAP concept, we can think of existing abilities and we could tweak them slightly to MAYBE make it fit the concept better. But we don't do that. Custom ability creation should not be just a "quick fix" for an existing ability. Like Deck Knight said, we introduce completely new unknown factors by programming in a new ability. The drawbacks of making custom abilities so readily have to be considered very carefully before we end up making a custom, sightly-different-from-others ability for every CAP we make. Please consider very carefully whether Volt Absorb will be broken or not.

 

[hyperbeem]

I have not posted in a while, but after some thought and reading a bunch of posts I have decided that Volt Absorb is the best ability.
1. Volt Absorb gets rid of the crucial electric weakness.
2. It is not broken because it needs help from Kiss to beat stuff.
3. It does a better job if countering jolteon, rotom, and zapdos.
4. Gyrados is still screwed by suicune.
5. There is no reason to dumb things down with Shockproof

 

[Jebus McAzn]

First of all, Ice Beam has the same Base Power as Thunderbolt! This means that Starmie can still screw over the core. In fact, Jolteon's HP Ice and Starmie's Surf do enough to Togekiss that it will be spamming Roost for a while.

Second of all, CAP 11 isn't even that bulky! A lot of Machamp's effective bulk comes from its No Guard DynamicPunch confusing everything. CAP 11 is, in fact, less bulky than Togekiss is, and Togekiss has Roost!

Electric attacks are not the only thing that the opponent could possibly aim at Togekiss! Togekiss doesn't pose such a huge immediate threat that the opponent will be necessarily compelled to use Electric attacks blindly. If you really can't beat a Pokémon without spamming a super effective move, then I guess I'll be running over your teams with Heatran, Jolteon, Vaporeon, etc. later during CAP 11's testing...

Volt Absorb isn't exactly helpful against Ice moves either. CAP 11 needs to be able to switch in on some of Kiss's counters, but it can't do everything at once. The very fact that Ice Beam hurts CAP 11 will force players to make smarter decisions. Volt Absorb lets CAP 11 survive longer. However, Shockproof will make you think twice about switching, while not being underpowered to the point of uselessness.

Volt Absorb has its merits, but I feel that it might take away a lot of the skill needed to play. Consider that one of Togekiss's very useful abilities is Wish passing. A Shockproof CAP 11 might take advantage of this instead of solely relying on Volt Absorb on what seems to be a Pokemon with decent defenses.

Just my two cents.

 

[eXeggutoraped]

Well i have read through the entire topic and this is my final say.

1. Primary ablilty - Guts

The more offensive option. 85 attack is something to laugh at...until you get statused.
85 base becomes 127 base, 110 speed is more than enough to sweep, 105 special attack is
enough to break pysical walls. You can switch into T-Wave and Toxic aimed at Togekiss
with ease, you could even run a sleep talking wall set with un-resisted stab!
Even annoying niche stuff like Jirachi Thunder sets are wrecked by this.

Three problems are solved by Guts.
1. Cap11 can absorb status (mainly t-wave) and other paralysis inducing moves for Togekiss.
2. Cap11 can make use of fighting stab with a +50% 85 base attack stat.
3. CAP11 great 110 base speed isn't wrecked by T-wave, T-Bolt, Thunder and Body Slam ect.


2. Secondary abilitly - Synchronize
OK, not as perfect as i first thought, but synchronize can still work as the defensive
synergy option over the offensive guts.

So the scenario is basically this, Togekiss is in play and they bring in something faster
with T-wave or Toxic. Cap11 switches in and takes the status aimed for Togekiss, their Togekiss-counter
is now crippled and can be worn down and killed by cap11 (Both are paralized so cap 11 is still relatively
fast). Unfortunatly Cap11 can not take a t-wave with the stat spread now geared towards high speed.

Good news is Cap11 can take a toxic and burn, maybe even that's a positive now being immune to T-wave.

It still works and it works defensively.

At first i though synchronize was the best choice, but with the new stat spreads Cap11 CAN NOT TAKE A THUNDER WAVE.
Unless CAP11 running rest, refresh, Togekiss runs heal bell, Cap11 runs a lum berry (how would that work exactly?) ect.
It will work but guts requires 0 setup (maybe some ev spread tweaking) and is easier to pull off.

 

[Colonel Darren]

I propose Trace and Shockproof as the options for CAP 11's abilities. I think that allowing the option of either would help gear CAP 11 to focus more on countering certain threats to Togekiss depending on the team.

Shockproof already has it's merits, helping to aid against threats such as Rotom A and Zapdos. After all, it's been a general consensus that these two are the biggest counters to the standard Togekiss sets, so this would allow a more focused perspective of eliminating these threats.

Trace, however, is simply too good to turn down as a secondary ability option. Being able to copy immunities such as Jolteon's Volt Absorb and Heatran's Flash Fire would help widen the spectrum of Poke that Cap 11 can help check and eliminate. It would also have it's merits by copying niche abilities such as Serene Grace and Intimidate.

In conclusion, I favor giving the option to both Shockproof/Trace, giving choice to the player on which threats to focus on to Togekiss. After all, we have four other team members that we can fall back on.

 

[Fuzznip]

I've been thinking a lot about what effect I want Shockproof to have to follow on with Heatproof (like how Volt Absorb follows on with Water Absorb), and I would like to propose two possible effects.

1) Electric-type attacks deal 50% damage to this Pokemon, and is immune to full paralysis. The Speed cut is still factored in.

2) Electric-type attacks deal 50% damage to this Pokemon, and is immune to the Speed cut from paralysis. It may still be fully paralyzed.

​

These are the only two effects I want Shockproof to have, not both and not anything else. The reason I want Shockproof to deal with paralysis in some way is because Heatproof deals with burn, and these two abilities are essentially alike in what they try to accomplish (like Volt Absorb and Water Absorb), if you get what I mean.

Having said that, I want some discussion regarding which effect is better for both CAP 11 and Togekiss overall. Also, this is not a vote. Don't vote for option 1 or option 2. State why you think this effect is better than the other effect with competitive justifications. This isn't going to be a long discussion, I just want some quick opinions.

 

[Hooker Punch]

No Speed Loss>No Full Paralysis

CAP11 is fast, and he needs that speed to get the kills on the pokemon he needs to KO(Rotom, Zapdos). Halving his speed makes him worthless in killing those and pretty much ends the tag-team.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

Definately no Speed loss > no full Paralysis. As stated by HP, CAP11 needs all the Speed we've given it to exterminate Togekiss's enemies effectively. Though there's still a 25% chance of being immobile, CAP11's better off than being completely outsped and KO'd by that which it was supposed to KO.

But, why exactly don't you want full immunity to Paralysis, Fuzz? o.o

 

[VKCA]

seems like a damn easy decision to me: no speed loss > immunity to full para.
I'm not a fan of immunity to full paralysis because you could never tell if it's working, not to mention nobody uses the the paralysis status for full para; people use it to slow pokemon down. You'd be less inclined to try and paralyze cap 11 if it didn't lose any speed from said paralysis.

 

[X-Act]

Of course, not having the Speed loss is better than not having Full Paralysis. After all, the primary reason why we paralyse Pokemon is for the Speed loss, not for the loss of accuracy.

 

[Aqueos]

Well togekiss uses it for both, and so does rachi, but it makes sence. No speed loss.

 

[Colonel Darren]

A speed loss would be more crippling to CAP 11 than a Full Paralysis. It seems as if CAP 11 will be quite reliant on it's strong speed stat to score KOs on things like Zapdos and Rotom.

Also, if you do end up slower, that'd just doom you regardless of the lack of FP. I'd rather chance the FP kicking in than losing completely to the things CAP 11 should be able to check. After all, the chances of a successful turn are a bit better than Thunder/Blizzard accuracy. :P

 

[Scoopapa]

I definitely see the dislogic in the "help Togekiss /= help Gyarados" in the electric resist department, but I do want to point out that there are other arguments. Volt Absorb makes this thing really easy to heal with Electric attacks aimed at Togekiss (Gyarados), which with decent defenses will potentially make this thing into a speedy tank, a direction that a lot of people want to avoid. Also, just because CAP11 doesn't counter SpecsJolt and LODos doesn't mean that it still loses to them. Zapdos doesn't want to die for one resisted Thunderbolt, and Specs Jolteon now get's KOed in the process of taking you down (although Lefties CAP11 will survive). Worst case scenario: CAP11 just took out their Electric-type, and you have Togekiss. The idea is that Shockproof is good enough because now the duo is no longer "raped by Zapdos and Jolteon", but at the same time doesn't have some of the overpowered aspects of Volt Absorb.

Essentially, we are voting whether CAP11's solution to Electric-types is "adequate" or "extremely powerful". It depends how we want to build this CAP.

 

[Deck Knight]

I prefer No Full Paralysis > No Speed Loss.

That 25% hax of not making a move is far, far more important than the speed drop. The speed drop is bad, but theoretically CAP11 is going to have its own means of reliable paralysis, and can remove the speed deficit in a single turn. Moreover since it cannot be fully paralyzed, it will always be able to use its own paralysis move reliably.

Also consider that CAP10 is fast, but it isn't the fastest thing in the metagame by a long shot. Considering it speed ties with Gengar and is slower than Azelf, Starmie, and Jolteon, as well as any scarved Pokemon, the ability to still reliably deal with them (or as we're chatting randomly on irc, possibly Psycho Shift the paralysis onto something). Meaning there are threats to Togekiss and CAP 11 that are going to outspeed the duo regardless.

Having immunity to full para also lets you use it as a dedicated paralysis absorber, and it can more effectively utilize Trick Room support or use Payback. True, it relies on your opponent using a paralysis inducing move, but most of them can be seen a mile away.

Full Paralysis isn't just a drop in "accuracy," it can make even your support moves fail. Furthermore CAP11 has STAB on 3 priority attacks (Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave, Sucker Punch), meaning it can still strike first with these attacks. Does anyone really think you can sweep with 75% accurate attacks, especially when they have 135 and 120 STAB adjusted BP (assuming Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse. Focus Blast has laughable accuracy before being slashed)? Of course you can't. There are few Pokemon that can both paralyze CAP 11 and attempt to KO it before it can paralyze them back. Taking that 75% shot against Infernape is going to backfire at some point.

 

[Maga]

I definitely see lack of full paralysis as better than full speed, especially on a Togekiss partner. I mean, Togekiss loves Para-flinch, and as a mate to it, CAP11 will have its share of paralyzed targets to choose from, so I'll take the ability to fire off moves flawlessly in that case. And as Deck Knight pointed out, speed loss is irrelevant when using one of your 3 STAB Priority attacks.

 

[Azule]

Three things:

1) Type synergy still draws CAP11 and Gyarados closer, which is why the limited (but adequet) Electric resistance is favorable.

2) Having only an Electric resistance and the inability to dispose of Jolteon and bulky-waters causes Electric-immune Pokemon that can (like E-vire and Jolteon) to remain the superior options over CAP11 for partnering with Gyarados, thus hindering CAP11's ability to partner with Gyarados and maintaining its ability to partner with Togekiss.

3) Gyarados more often DDs than attacks while its opponents switch.

Have a nice day, as I depart from this circling debate of largely personal opinions and laziness.

For one, does it matter if CAP11 can also partner with Gyarados? Everyone's making it out to be this big thing which makes the concept fail, but it doesnt, because the concept is to create a perfect partner for TOGEKISS. It doesnt matter if it can also partner Gyarados.
For that reason, Volt Absorb is clearly better.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

2) Electric-type attacks deal 50% damage to this Pokemon, and is immune to the Speed cut from paralysis. It may still be fully paralyzed.

I know we shouldn'y use flavour to pick one, but somehow this just makes more sense to me.



also, from a competetive standpoint, it's just more useful.


you know you also had a 3rd option: 1/2 speed loss and 1/2 chance of paralysis, but it's not near as clean or useful as the two you proposed so it's inconequential.