CAP 11 CAP 11 - Main Typing Discussion

[Not Scicky]

Instead of looking to negate the stealth rocks weakness (not that it's not an issue) we should be trying to ensure that Togekiss does not need to switch once CAP11 has done it's job, this means that CAP11 should be able to successfully shut down steel types, paralyze fast things and poison those slow sons of bitches. Allowing Togekiss to sit back and flinch hax the fuck out of the crippled pokemon. Alternatively, Togekiss should be able to lure things that CAP11 can safely switch into, and then pass some boosts onto it, making sure that all of Togekiss' sets partner well with CAP11 is important.

I want fighting/electric, anything that threatens Togekiss will likely get absolutely stomped by this combination, and anything that threatens this guy... well... likewise, given a speed stat of between 90-100 and decent physical defenses I believe it would be Togekiss' ultimate partner.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'm putting in for two typings, as either does Togekiss a large favor.

Psychic

As I mentioned in the earlier discussion thread, Psychic does many things synergistically for Togekiss that it does not do for other Flying types. First and foremost while Togekiss is bulky, it does not like receiving strong Fighting-typed attacks because it only has a neutrality. It is unlikely then that any pokemon in against a Psychic CAP11 would start slinging around Close Combat, since the defense drops are imperiling even to mediocre attackers, and especially in light of Togekiss' preferred flinch abuse.

At the same time, Psychic hits Fighting types for super-effective damage. This may seem redundant given Togekiss' Flying STAB does as well, however Air Slash is still a relatively weak STAB where Psychic is stronger, and if we want to go out on a limb with Psycho Boost, I don't see why it would be a problem.

Psychic also lures in Shadow Ball and U-turn, both of which Togekiss resists.

As far as Pursuit Weakness, there is a non-customized way to deal with Pursuit: Dry Baton Pass. While Pursuit can hit opponents fleeing via switch or U-turn, it cannot hit Pokemon using Baton Pass provided they are faster than the Pursuit user. I am personally inclined to believe that CAP11 should be both fast and a spreader of paralysis. It should be the tip of the spear enabling Togekiss to clean up the rest rather than having Togekiss at the forefront taking damaging attacks.

Furthermore, Dry Baton Pass (or perhaps even other moves Psychics can get like Imprison) would give CAP11 even more synergy with PlotKiss because instead of losing the boost through a switch, CAP11 instead becomes either a pivot back to Togekiss or a way to set up another dangerous Pokemon, perhaps a third part of a three-Pokemon core.

Here are Psychic's Type-Move requirements:
Dream Eater
Grass Knot
Light Screen
Psych Up
Psychic
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Trick
Zen Headbutt

While not type-required, Psychics also have heavy representation of Shadow Ball and Focus Blast to round out their special attacks, as well as Trick Room. Psychic also has the most support moves of any type (bar perhaps Normal) and could easily employ Psycho Shift for status or any various other sensible strategies.

Electric

Electric is the other type that helps Togekiss out. Several Electric types have Abilities that make them immune to the effects of Thunder Wave, and Electric also does not duplicate any of Togekiss' weaknesses. Electric lures in Ground attacks, but if CAP11 want's a reprieve, it can Magnet Rise as well.

One of the reasons I don't support Ground is that it doubles Togekiss' Ice weakness and fares poorly against two of Togekiss' greatest nuisances, Starmie and Rotom-A. Rotom-A is immune to ground, is faster than Togekiss, and can employ paralysis of its own. Three Rotom-A types can get the drop on Ground, the most common of which is Rotom-W. Starmie's Natural Cure makes paralyzing it difficult, and it also has STAB Surf along with Ice Beam (and Thunderbolt) to make life miserable for a Ground CAP11 and Togekiss alike. Air Slash still damages it, but it resists Aura Sphere and can therefore usually find a place to switch in.

Electric on the other hand keeps Starmie at bay, and forces Rotom-A to use Shadow Ball as the strongest reliable neutral attack. Overheat/Leaf Storm will drop its SA and Hydro Pump/Blizzard are inaccurate. Since many Rotom are Scarfed or Spec'd, scouting it out with Protect and then switching to Togekiss would be a formidable combination.

Electric's other big benefit is it resists Bullet Punch. Scizor can cleanly 2HKO Togekiss with a CB Bullet Punch, and if CAP11 had a good answer to Scizor it could utilize this resistance to its advantage. This means CAP11 would have to have somewhat decent physical defenses, possibly to the detriment of offenses or speed, but it's by no means unworkable.

 

[HouseFantastic]

Right now, I'm going to vote for Ground as well.

The biggest problem I have with ground is that a ground type can easily be switched out by water types. Togekiss may be able to soak in the likely secondary ice moves, but this combo would probably be torn apart by Swampert, who could predict a switch and stone edge poor little Togekiss to death.

In order to remedy this, I'm probably going to suggest a secondary grass typing in the next poll, whose only drawback would be a 4x weakness to ice.

 

[NARFNra]

As far as Pursuit Weakness, there is a non-customized way to deal with Pursuit: Dry Baton Pass. While Pursuit can hit opponents fleeing via switch or U-turn, it cannot hit Pokemon using Baton Pass provided they are faster than the Pursuit user. I am personally inclined to believe that CAP11 should be both fast and a spreader of paralysis. It should be the tip of the spear enabling Togekiss to clean up the rest rather than having Togekiss at the forefront taking damaging attacks.

This is a very good point, and as many people mentioned earlier, a Baton Pass duo would work quite well with Togekiss's passing abilty. Even better, having good or decent special attack would allow it to kill any non special wall Togekiss had to flee from after getting an NP boost.

Here are Psychic's Type-Move requirements:
Dream Eater
Grass Knot
Light Screen
Psych Up
Psychic
Rain Dance
Sunny Day
Trick
Zen Headbutt

Having Grass Knot could proove useful against such dangerous targets as Tyranitar, which it could lure in. Trick would do as good as always, and Psychic is a very useful offensive move damage wise..

 

[voltblizzard]

Fighting is my suggestion. They resist rock moves and SR. Some people say ground is better because it resists two types. Fighting hits Blissey super effectively with STAB.
Normally, special walls would block Togekiss (unless its Hustle) but with a physical partner it can hurt most special walls more.

Sure, Togekiss already has aura sphere but a real fighting type would have stronger STAB and rock and ground type moves to cover more types. It also resists pursuit, which is a nice bonus. I like ground as a secondary type but I think the main type should be fighting.

 

[HouseFantastic]

Giving CAP11 a 4x weakness to a type that Togekiss is weak to = Good idea? Especially not with Syclant running around, sorry <___<

I was under the impression that we were basing this off of the OU metagame and not off of the CAP metagame. Compound this with the fact that several other people have suggested that ground's ice weakness is already mitigated by togekiss's bulk. This also applies to a four times weakness, seeing as there aren't any trappers that use ice moves, as well as the infrequency of a choice banded mamoswine using ice shard these days, once again, in the OU metagame.

 

[NARFNra]

I was under the impression that we were basing this off of the OU metagame and not off of the CAP metagame.

Okay then, it's a 4x weakness to the type that's carried as coverage by a majority of Special Attackers in OU and will be used on Togekiss as it switches.

 

[DarkSlay]

There are quite a lot of viable types to use in this situation. I'll just give my two cents on those that have been mentioned to a great extent in this thread already:

Electric: This is an okay choice. I think the "only Ground weakness" argument is kind of over-exaggerated, to be honest. Sure, a big part of core duos is switching in on immunities and resistances. However, the neutrality of Electric types, in general, actually cause a disadvantage to Togekiss. Those who attack an Electric type usually finds (with the exception of Magnezone) that any attack will come its way and hit hard, Super Effective or not. Now, Togekiss is immune to Ground and Ghost, and resists Grass and Bug. That's not really awesome, to be honest, and an Electric CAP11 can only force the Ground immunity for Togekiss. Tyranitar can easily Stone Edge or Crunch CAP11 and hit Togekiss for big damage. Also keep in mind that Electric attacks provide little insurance against Togekiss' counters (Electric is used for bulky Waters and Gyarados mostly, which Togekiss has little trouble with except Gyarados). Resisting Electric itself is okay, but unlike my stance for CAP10, I don't like Electric's neutrality here. What will Electric bring to the table that will help Togekiss? Is it really only Ground attacks and an Electric resist?

Steel: Eh...no. Steel provides no offensive support whatsoever STAB-wise obviously, so I'll leave that out of the equation. Defensively, Steels are weak to Fighting, Ground, and Fire. It resists Bug, Ghost, Dark, Psychic, Grass, Normal, Dragon, and Rock. Out of those resistances, Bug, Ghost, and Grass are also resisted by Togekiss, so they are meaningless. Of those resistances, Normal, Dark, Psychic, and Dragon hit neutrally on Togekiss, which makes them moderately important. Rock *EDIT* and Ice are the only Super Effective moves where a Steel can enter from Togekiss "safely", as in without significant bulk. Meanwhile, like Electric, Ground is the only move where Togekiss can enter safely. Fire and Fighting still hit hard. I'm not seeing a whole lot of synergy here, and don't forget Steel's offensive unimportance. Throwing resistances on a Pokemon does not constitute "synergy".

Psychic: I'm not too sold on how useful a Ghost weakness is for Togekiss' success, especially since (to my knowlege) only two Pokemon in the OU metagame really use Ghost moves and usually carry a move that hits Togekiss super effectively. Bug moves are also mostly physical (at least the most threatening ones are), and taking 33% from U-Turn plus a SR weakness doesn't seem to convince me that it's safe to switch Togekiss into something like Scizor, who greatly troubles Psychic types. Meanwhile, resisting Fighting is nice, but with weaknesses to Electric, Ice, and Rock, I feel there are more pressing needs for Togekiss to find in a partner. Resisting a neutrality is not an importance. I want to like this, but I'm not feeling it.

Poision: Not feeling it. It's like Electric, but doesn't resist Electric. Heck, even Toxic Spikes aren't an issue for Togekiss. There are no benefits here, other than the "benefit" of bringing in Ground attacks. Once again, resisting a neutrality is far from important.

Rock: I think Rock is a decent choice. Rock is weak to Water, Grass, Fighting, Ground, and Steel. Rock resists Normal, Flying, Poison, and Fighting. What I like most about Rock is the "small things" about it: the Sandstorm 1.5x SpD boost and immunity to passive damage, for instance, can take advantage of opposing TTar and Stall quite well, while giving it some natural SpD bulk so that when BST conversations start, we can focus on other non-natural factors. STAB Rock attack is nice offensively, and hits counters to Togekiss hard like Zapdos and such. Togekiss easily switches into Grass and Ground, and doesn't mind Specially-based Water attacks. The drawbacks are the Steel weakness, which makes Scizor a main target, and the Fighting weakness, which while neutral to Togekiss, doesn't help. However, Scizor troubles aren't only solved by typing, however. Individual Pokemon concerns are valid, but aren't mandatory for typing discussion. I would support Rock.

Dark: Much like Steel, a Fighting weakness and neutrality/lack of opportunities to switch makes me say no to this. I don't see much positives.

Fighting: I think this is an okay choice, much like Electric. Resisting Rock is good, and having a powerful offensive STAB for counters is nice. However, neutrality once again kills it, and really, Togekiss can't switch in on anything that's aimed at Fighting types, and trying to predict will be impossible because of neutrality. I'm not seeing much synergy and positiveness here, although there are some useful aspects.

Ground: I also think Ground is a decent choice. Ground is weak to Water, Grass, and Ice. It resists Rock and Poison, and is immune to Electric. I find it extremely interesting that Ground's short list of resistances and weaknesses actually cater to Togekiss quite nicely. Ground resists Rock and is immune to Electric, which covers almost all of Togekiss' initial weaknesses. Meanwhile, Togekiss resists Grass and doesn't mind specially-based Water attacks. Ground is a nice offensive STAB, obviously. I find Rock a little bit more useful in terms of Togekiss' counters, but Ground does well against grounded Steels, which is awesome. What prevents this from being the obvious choice is the shared Ice weakness, which in a metagame that centralizes on Dragons and Ice-weaks and countering them, is very detrimental. An Ice weakness going to be a problem no matter what, so it's hard to simply just excuse it. Aside from this, it's a good choice.

Fire: Not seeing the usefulness defensively here. Dual SR weakness is obvious, and even with "we can just secondary type it", it's too centralizing, and we're reduced to having a maximum of a neutrality. I don't like starting off on that foot. Offensively, it's a decent choice however, hitting Steels bar Heatran hard. I actually think this has some promise offensively, but will give us trouble defensively no matter what the secondary typing is. I'd say it's okay, but not good.

In conclusion, I would support Ground and Rock first and foremost, and give weak support to Electric, Fighting, and Fire.

 

[Maru]

I agree with smallvizier on the fighting/eletric typing it resists SR and could easily handle threats like mentioned threats like Blissy, Rotom Formes, and Tyranitar given the right stats, it resists rock and eletric types while being a threat to ice types

 

[Chateau]

Steel: Eh...no. Steel provides no offensive support whatsoever STAB-wise obviously, so I'll leave that out of the equation. Defensively, Steels are weak to Fighting, Ground, and Fire. It resists Bug, Ghost, Dark, Psychic, Grass, Normal, Dragon, and Rock. Out of those resistances, Bug, Ghost, and Grass are also resisted by Togekiss, so they are meaningless. Of those resistances, Normal, Dark, Psychic, and Dragon hit neutrally on Togekiss, which makes them moderately important. Rock is the only Super Effective move where a Steel can enter from Togekiss "safely", as in without significant bulk. Meanwhile, like Electric, Ground is the only move where Togekiss can enter safely. Fire and Fighting still hit hard. I'm not seeing a whole lot of synergy here, and don't forget Steel's offensive unimportance. Throwing resistances on a Pokemon does not constitute "synergy".

You're forgetting that Steel also resists Ice, and Rock is arguably the most important resistance to have out of Kiss' weaknesses. And Steel also pairs well with Togekiss because Togekiss covers its Ground weakness, so it wouldn't be merely "throwing resistances on". Their relationship would be symbiotic, the point of this CAP. While your analysis of each type pointed out how well each could assist Togekiss, you forgot that Togekiss has to benefit CAP11 as well.

 

[DarkSlay]

You're forgetting that Steel also resists Ice, and Rock is arguably the most important resistance to have out of Kiss' weaknesses. And Steel also pairs well with Togekiss because Togekiss covers its Ground weakness, so it wouldn't be merely "throwing resistances on". Their relationship would be symbiotic, the point of this CAP. While your analysis of each type pointed out how well each could assist Togekiss, you forgot that Togekiss has to benefit CAP11 as well.

You are correct in the Ice weakness, I've added it to the paragraph. However, like the Electric description I wrote denotes, one Ground weakness and immunity pairing is vastly overrated. I fail to see how one immunity and insufficient offensive prowress denotes "symbiotic" in a partner. What about Fire moves? What about Fighting moves? What about Electric moves? I feel other types can answer more about these questions than Steel can. In this sense, the two resistances are nice defensively. In terms of Togekiss switching in, it is not ideal except in the case of Ground, which while important, is not the end-all-be-all. Togekiss does not counter things most Steels hate (Zapdos, Bronzong, etc.), which is another point in why this pairing is not optimal.

Steel is a great type, no doubt about it. Does it pair well with Togekiss? Only in resisting Togekiss' weaknesses, really. Outside of that, it's kind of a bleak story.

 

[Chateau]

@DrkSlay
Well not to say, "We'll slap a secondary type on it", but we can. Steel's resistances allow for almost any of the suggested types to be secondary, especially options like Psychic and Fire, which don't do much defensively, but can hurt some of Togekiss' counters offensively. Steel + an offensive type would create an ideal symbiotic relationship.

 

[Stagnant]

Ground

Resists Rock and immunity to Electric attacks. 2/3 Togekiss's weakness's.
Stealth Rock resistant. (A must due to Togekiss's weakness).
Lures special attacks (Grass), something that Togekiss is more geared to taking on.
T-Wave Immune.
Obligatory STAB EQ gives it some offensive presence.

 

[SilvanRaptor]

I've read through many of these and I have had many changing opinions based on what has been brought to attention. I know we arent supposed to suggest full typings, but I would have to say fighting, because fighting can be utilized to defeat that which is kiss's mortal enemy. If we gave it a fighting type stab, it could take out a t-tar or weasle easily, and give scizor a run for it's money. If we added poison or steel it would draw EQ and switch into togekiss. if we typed fighting with electric, it would have a resistance to electric and be able to take care of any water that had an ice attack. I, personally after some thinking am for fighting with poison and steel being close seconds.

 

[danmantincan]

I am in favor of Ground as the primary type:
-It resists SR/Rock attacks
-Immunity to Electric attacks and Thunder Wave
-Great for dual-typing.

I think we could make Electric its secondary type, as it provides a great STAB to deal with water types that commonly carry ice attacks. Electric, gives it a resistance to steel type attacks, most notably Bullet Punches, since they bypass Paralysis support that is essential to Togekiss' success. This also makes it a great lure for Grass types, since they would resist both of CAP11s STABs. Electric typing would also lure ground type attacks, to give Togekiss a free switch in.

 

[tennisace]

Just reminding everyone:

• This is not a poll, don't say "I voted for X", say "I support X because y and z". This is a standard forum rule.
• Don't use bold everywhere, if you need to highlight the main point of your post at the beginning/end its fine, but throughout it gets really annoying to read. I will be writing an announcement on this shortly.
• This thread is for discussing the main typing only, don't discuss secondary types in this thread. You can endorse multiple primary types if you wish.

If you don't follow these rules, you will be infracted.

 

[Darkamber8828]

I support Electric because it resists Thunderbolt and Bullet Punch, its STAB is only resisted by Grass types and Ground types (pokemon Togekiss can generally switch into safely), its STAB can hit Bulky Waters super-effectively (they generally carry waters and are harder to flinch to death with their defenses), and always (always) have thunder wave, which togekiss appreciates, letting it outspeed stuff and paraflinch them to death. It also does not take super-effective damage from Togekiss' other two weaknesses, Rock and Ice.

 

[GraffnTrix]

Concerning all the love for Steel types as the Mate's main typing, it will attract a lot of Fighting types, especially if the mate is slow. If you try to switch to Togekiss, it will take the hit, and as we know, Togekiss isn't the best attack absorber, especially to Fighting type moves.

Electric is very viable, as many have said, it would be an Earthquake attractor, switch we could switch our loveable huggable blob into.

If we think on a different end, we could think about the Togekiss first, and what it does. It can flinchhax, and it can status. What we need is something that can take the hits Togekiss can't take, but can also hit hard after Togekiss has started the battle. This is why I think Steel would be better suited as secondary typing.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Most of the Ice attacks that hit Togekiss SE are unSTABed and cannot hurt Togekiss all that much. Togekiss can Roost off the damage from them and proceed to hax.

The Fighting weakness is true, but CAP11 should have a way to at least deal with the Fighters (hopefully).

I'm worried about the possible Fighting weakness, but otherwise the pair has good type synergy.

 

[Izzonix]

I think steel is a fairly obvious choice for a number of resons; first off it resists rock and ice so it can destory stealth rock sets, steel can resist toxic (a common problem for togekiss), good defensive capabilities and togekiss would compliment its fighting weakness.

On a side note, however, i would like to pointout te promises of a ground type. Resistant to rock and immune to electric, a good asset against ttar lucario and scizor and with the proper movepool weavile and possibly gyarados.

 

[Meteotrio]

I also support Ground as the primary typing for this CAP. It's immune to Electric attacks and resistant to Rock attacks. Also, Togekiss can resist the Ground type's grass weakness. Assuming that the Ground type is Physical-based like most ground types are, it can help clear Blissey out of the way for Togekiss, thanks to its Thunder Wave immunity and Blissey's low defense.

 

[The Pokemon Pimp]

First off, I'm seeing a lot of great posts on this thread and it's really awesome.

I usually feel bad joining the general population, but I agree that Electric is an excellent first type for this CAP. Electric has only one weakness which can easily be negated by Togekiss and Grass and Steel resists are incredibly helpful in a game where Bullet Punch Scizor runs rampant (indeed, one of Togekiss' problems is no way to deal with strong priority).

Although some users on here are saying that we should focus less on Stealth Rock negation, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to at least contrast Togekiss and its perfect mate, entry hazards wise. That being said, Fighting or Ground are slightly less common and are helpful types that could make a good perfect mate for Togekiss. Ground in particular is helpful, as most Ground types are physically based which could help Togekiss and itself move around certain walls, so to speak. Obviously, Ground gets the nice Electric immunity as well. The only problem I can see with Ground is the shared Ice weakness, but otherwise Ground is another fine candidate for this CAP.

 

[ginganinja]

I believe that many types have merit. Fire is a rather unusual one that has mainly offensive benfits such as absorbing will-o-wisp wich Rotom commly abuses and Fire also has a nice range of both Special and Physical options. However the double SR weakness is poor.

I would really like to support psychic or Electric mainly because Electric types can lure in Ground attacks while Psychic lure in some Bug attacks for Togekiss to take. Both types have a bias toward special moves, something Togekiss can make use of by passing Nasty Plots to them. Nutrality to some moves I believe is less of an issue since Secondary types can help balence them out.

Have a Nice Day!

 

[Bughouse]

What concerns me about Scicky's suggestion of a Fighting/Electric with base 90-100 speed is that... this would essentially be a buffed (or at least, modified) Electivire with now STAB Fighting as well.

CAP 11 must be no faster than Togekiss, otherwise, with a good physical movepool, it could run scarf/band sets on its own and potentially wreck OU.

 

[LimeDaiquiri]

I'm not going to suggest ground only because I don't know any Poke'mon that carries Stone Edge that would wan't to switch in on Togekiss. Ttar definitely won't switch in unless it's scarfed, Machamp get's taken out with air slash and so on.

Ground would be useful for the STAB Earthquake and is immune to Electric, but then it would be weak to ice.

I'm also afraid that the ground typing won't effectively draw in Earthquake, as much as let's say, an ice or a water type. Which Togekiss does not resist.

I'm gonna suggest poison because psychic type attacks are no where near as popular as Earthquake therefore drawing in Earthquake. Poison also resist fighting which Togekiss cannot take and draws in steel types therefore allowing togekiss to swith in and threaten with Flamethrower or Aura Sphere allowing it to Nasty Plot and blah, blah.

So yeah anyways. I suggest poison as the primary type.