BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[c l e a r]

Soul Dew...
It is seriously bordering on "Why are we even talking about this?" Anyone with a shred of common sense knows that nothing good will come from it.

Now, VGC is coming up in a few days... I would laugh my head off if anyone tries to register a Soul Dew Lati. But I think Battle Subway already bans it, soooo...

 

[Sciztar]

With Soul Dew, you can kiss Latias and Latios goodbye from the OU and back into the Über tier.

 

[Bardische]

On Volcarona's Bulky Quiver Dance set, is Roost is an acceptable option over Morning Sun now? Considering the inevitable onslaught of Rain Teams with the changes from BW2?

So basically:
Volcarona @ Leftovers
Bold Nature | Flame Body | 240 HP/216 Def/52 Spe
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Morning Sun/Roost

It does not receive the negative cutback when rain is in place, so I think Volcarona would prefer this over MS.

 

[NoUserName]

No worries about banning Latios/Latias, Soul Dew, the item will be banned from OU almost for sure, like happened in 4th gen before sending again the Lati twins to Ubers.

Edit: Sorry, I read the Tobes's post, but I think it's important to point out this fact.

Is there any reliable source where tells Soul Dew is going to be released?

If this is true, the Lati twins will be used again in Ubers and Garchomp would be annoyed, since they outspeed it. Latias could be used again as a Kyogre counter.

 

[Sphyxius]

Has nobody stopped to consider that Blaziken ought to be retested? I mean everyone is harping about retesting old bans like Garchomp and Excadrill and others are saying sun didn't get good enough boosts (I'm personally thrilled about Roost/Giga Drain Volc) so i'm a bit surprised no one has been at least theorymoning a Blaziken revisit to OU..

 

[doughboy]

Has nobody stopped to consider that Blaziken ought to be retested? I mean everyone is harping about retesting old bans like Garchomp and Excadrill and others are saying sun didn't get good enough boosts (I'm personally thrilled about Roost/Giga Drain Volc) so i'm a bit surprised no one has been at least theorymoning a Blaziken revisit to OU..

you just need to read some pages back? http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4291166&postcount=137

i don't want him back...

 

[Sphyxius]

Ha, I just realized that Blaziken would be a pretty solid check/counter to BK/WK if they both get (re)tested simultaneously...

 

[Asek]

Goodbye weatherless offense...
But really people need to relax a bit. If a pokemon is obviously going to wreck all (B/W Kyurem) Its going to go uber. Let the Theirans and Keldeo have a chance to settle in and its preety obvious that they're going to see a bucketload of use in the first few days. Its not like their weakness to SR and Vulnerability to being revenged make them impossible to Check/Counter. Mamoswine is looking better and better. Can't wait for B/W2 update to come to PO.
EDIT: The lati twins keeping Soul Dew would be horrid for the metagame. If I remember right and Soul Dew increases both Special Attack AND Special Defense by 50%. Latios Draco Meteor would hit HARDER than Kyurem-W and Latias would be able to hit hard without having to get up lots of Calm Minds. You get an Improved Choice Specs and you dont have to be locked into a move (See ya life orb). Not to mention that both twins can now have a better chance of pulling off a Roost/Recover at low health thanks to the extra bulk Soul Dew provides. Can someone tell me exactly how Soul Dew would be "Healthy for the meta?" Ubers yes OU no
Oh and if you think Darkrai and Manaphy should be retested your dreaming.

 

[superbadd]

I think if the lati twins could keep soul dew it would help counter rain/sun offense and give weatherless teams a chance to shine. Retesting Blaziken doesn't sound half bad really, sun teams aren't looking so hot(lol). With all the new rain threats and with techniloom being released and slowbro gaining substantial usage blacken can fit in quite well. I think everything up to darkrai and manaphy should be retested, and maybe shayman-s. The one thing I personally want to see banned is sand veil/snowcloak. Just b/c not every pokemon that has access may not be viable in ou doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned. It's not like every pokemon had bright powder and double team on every team. Those two things were quite rare yet were still banned. So I don't see why those two abilities should be an exception.

 

[Pan.]

With Soul Dew equipped, the Latis will be good Weather-Checks.

Lets think about it guys. If the Latis run Soul Dew, there is no Recovery, if they are Offensive they will fail to Crunch-Tar. If they are defensive, first they will miss Recovery like i said plus they wont be able to attack as hard as an offensive one.

BW2 should be testes from the ground up. Everything back in OU an suspect-testing go.

 

[Masttershake]

They didn't get much of a bonus, really. Something's like breloom and amoonguss cancel out their power so it's all good

No they really don't, I say screw it let other weathers have some of their banned pokes back if the useage of the new formes doesn't go down in the next month or so.

 

[min min]

Seeing how it is, Thundurus seems like it's going down the way of its Incarnate forme. Then again, everyone could get used to it like we got used to Haxorus and Latios.

 

[ginganinja]

I have been seeing these kind of arguments flying around, about Rains "Power" relative to Sandstorm, and then users bringing up suspects (or stuff like Soul Dew) and arguing them to be brought down to "boost sandstorm" so that things can "be equal" with other weathers like rain. Can we stop these kind of arguments please?

When I look at dropping suspects down, I really don't want use to stoop to arguments such as "lets allow Soul Dew cos rain is strong than sand" or whatever, I want rather use use arguments such as "Lets allow Soul Dew because the added power and bulk are not noticeable in this current new metagame" (Note, the previous was just a shitty example and does not reflect my opinion or arguments on Soul Dew).

We don't drop suspects to OU because they can be really cool checks / counters to pokemon / teamstyle X (and I would be disgusted if we actually did), we drop them to OU if they are deemed to be balanced enough to work in the metagame. SO can we please stop using arguments such as dropping Blaziken back to sun can be on equal power with rain etc etc?

 

[Aggro]

Imposter Ditto found in a Hidden Hollow

shit just got real

 

[Thorhammer]

The power of different weathers can indicate a good chance of things not being broken anymore.

And that's what we need: chance. Not certainty. At the very least, at this point we should open a Suspect ladder sending the bans back to the way they were at the end of Round 1 (plus the new obvious bans - Kyurem formes and possibly Soul Dew): with the obvious issues gone, but not the questionable ones that are all mixed up in this new game. We must find out for sure.

 

[Pippy]

We have Imposter Ditto? Great...

There goes boosting sweepers. It's too bad Tornadus-T, Thunderus-T, and alot of rain mons don't really counter themselves. Then I might be happy about getting him.

Edit: at least he'll be able to stop Breloom. (as long as he switches in on the SD)

 

[alphatron]

The only argument I can really see for blaziken (not including his destruction at the hands of the new imposter ditto) is that powerful priority users mangle him. Even scizor slices off more than a third of blaziken's hp after a bullet punch. The counter argument would be that one shouldn't need to carry priority just to deal with blaziken...but you SHOULD carry priority to deal with most of the threatening Pokemon in the metagame. All of the fast power houses or threatening setup sweepers are checked by priority users on all the good teams already. What makes blaziken's case so different. Back before he was banned, I had my blaziken stopped by all sorts of things, namely Banded extreme speed dragonite, slowbro, and jellicient in non-sun weather(since he can only kill him with sun up).

I'm not trying to start an argument here so if you want to respond to this, just pm me or post on my profile. These are just my thoughts.

 

[TCTphantom]

Am I the only one that thinks Deoxys N should be retested? I mean, priority users like Metagross, Azumarril, and Sizor easily kill it...

 

[Pippy]

Am I the only one that thinks Deoxys N should be retested? I mean, priority users like Metagross, Azumarril, and Sizor easily kill it...

Deoxis gets ExtreemSpeed, meaning Metagross and Scizor are really the only ones who can take it down. Deoxis would easily tear apart the metagame because of that.

Edit: and may I ask: why are we trying to retest everything? Can we wait on all this ban and retest stuff until the metagame actually stabilizes?

 

[Thorhammer]

Deoxis gets ExtreemSpeed, meaning Metagross and Scizor are really the only ones who can take it down. Deoxis would easily tear apart the metagame because of that.

And can't switch in because of HP Fire.

In OU, it kills as much as Deoxys-A and is noticeably harder to kill. There's no question that it's even more broken and does not belong in OU.

What really needs to be retested is Deoxys-S. Looking at the Checks section on its page, almost everything listed is OU (Tyranitar, Scizor, Espeon) or potential OU (Thundurus). That really says something about how reasonable it is to manage with OU Pokemon.

Edit: and may I ask: why are we trying to retest everything? Can we wait on all this ban and retest stuff until the metagame actually stabilizes?

Why would we want to that? So take even longer to fix things up and allow the chance of more things being banned unnecessarily in the meantime? Screw that.

We shouldn't even be using the term "retest" because we shouldn't even be thinking of it as a retest. The Round 1 bans were fundamental, basic stuff that just doesn't belong in OU. The stuff past that? Those are bans made specifically for the B/W1 metagame, which no longer exists. There's no valid reason to carry any of them over. It's disgusting that people are taking it as the default position that those bans should be carried over into a new metagame they weren't made for, one where we don't even know all the new things yet, let alone all the possible applications.

 

[alexwolf]

Deoxis gets ExtreemSpeed, meaning Metagross and Scizor are really the only ones who can take it down. Deoxis would easily tear apart the metagame because of that.

Edit: and may I ask: why are we trying to retest everything? Can we wait on all this ban and retest stuff until the metagame actually stabilizes?

Wait 'till the meta is stabilized and then fuck it up again? I don't think that this is wise... I don't know how we should do it, but waiting for 2-3 months for the meta to stabilize, only to fuck it up again doesn't seem right...

 

[Pippy]

Wait 'till the meta is stabilized and then fuck it up again? I don't think that this is wise... I don't know how we should do it, but waiting for 2-3 months for the meta to stabilize, only to fuck it up again doesn't seem right...

Let me clarify: let's wait to debate all that stuff until its stabilized. I'm not saying we should ban/unban stuff. We've only had these new mind for what? three days now? And we're already swinging the ban hammer when we have hardly any experience? What I'm saying is that this ban and unban descussion is pointless right now seeing as we hardly know what this metagame will be like when the hype dies down.

 

[Thorhammer]

We're not swinging the banhammer; we're undoing that swinging. The default position is unban: as far as we know, everything that was banned since Round 1 is now valid in OU, and must be returned to the tier to work with everything available at once.

 

[Jukain]

And can't switch in because of HP Fire.

In OU, it kills as much as Deoxys-A and is noticeably harder to kill. There's no question that it's even more broken and does not belong in OU.

What really needs to be retested is Deoxys-S. Looking at the Checks section on its page, almost everything listed is OU (Tyranitar, Scizor, Espeon) or potential OU (Thundurus). That really says something about how reasonable it is to manage with OU Pokemon.



Why would we want to that? So take even longer to fix things up and allow the chance of more things being banned unnecessarily in the meantime? Screw that.

We shouldn't even be using the term "retest" because we shouldn't even be thinking of it as a retest. The Round 1 bans were fundamental, basic stuff that just doesn't belong in OU. The stuff past that? Those are bans made specifically for the B/W1 metagame, which no longer exists. There's no valid reason to carry any of them over. It's disgusting that people are taking it as the default position that those bans should be carried over into a new metagame they weren't made for, one where we don't even know all the new things yet, let alone all the possible applications.

This post reflects exactly how I feel, except that the Darkrai test in DW OU is turning out well, because of which I wouldn't object to its unbanning.

 

[Pippy]

We're not swinging the banhammer; we're undoing that swinging. The default position is unban: as far as we know, everything that was banned since Round 1 is now valid in OU, and must be returned to the tier to work with everything available at once.

No, we shouldn't do it now. In this unstable metagame, we couldn't tell if something were broken or not since we hardly know anything about the meta. And besides, is it Smogon policy to retest everything the moment we get some new stuff? (I actually don't know. Is it?)