Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Omastar68 the reason for the 4 EVs is purely for economy. You get to increase Attack & Defence by 1 point each rather than boosting the Special Def stat by 1 point with 8 EVs.
I really like Mamoswine as a teammate as well. One of the best things you can use against thund for sure. I think running Rocks on it could be pretty good too, though i would probably not decide on that until after more of the team is chosen.
Not really sold on Heatran personally as i feel like it still loses to some things that threaten mence. Like on paper yeah it resists everything mence is weak to but like the most common dragon is part ground(and the most common dragons often have ground coverage) and a lot of mons that carry ice moves have coverage that hits tran(mamo, greninja, suicune). Yeah its nice for fairies but we could just use ferro for that and actually beat more things i just mentioned that tran loses to.
Porygon2 and Cresselia still do a solid job of checking Mence, neither of which appreciates Toxic. Aegislash also handles Sylveon, another problem mon for Mence to deal with. Since it runs Flash Cannon, Aegislash would struggle with opposing Aegislash, Talonflame, and Zapdos, which this Salamence set is particularly decent at checking.
ok so the main issues I see with this Salamence set is that it is undersped and KOed by Garchomp, as well as being really weak to Weavile and Mamoswine. These are probably things that could be improved on a little later down the track but I think CB Azumarill would be a cool option to consider, as it beats all three (except maybe Sash Chomp). It can also run Knock Off to chunk Cress and P2 and can be EVd to take Greninja's Gunk Shot (also revenges with Aqua Jet if Gren hasn't just used Scald or Grass Knot). The resistance to Ice and immunity to Fairy are handy too. It does still lose to Thundurus and Gengar so we'd have to take steps towards beating those (a Mamo or Weavile of our own? Some other Ground-type? Aegislash?).
Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def / 12 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
So, given the somewhat defensive nature of this Salamence I think we might as well roll with it all the way and pair it up with one of the sturdiest walls ever. Mence covers all of Ferrothorn's exploitable weaknesses while Ferro patches up most of Mence's, so they make up an rock-solid defensive core. Most notably, Ferrothorn completely undermines any threat that is posed by Mamoswine and most fairy/dragon types alike. I was going to submit an offensive Choice Band set which I think is more fun to use, but I figured that this Salamence specifically would appreciate a defensive partner in crime better.
Just so I make sure I'm fully getting how this type of thread works...Do we just submit and then vote for each Pokemon we plan to use one at a time every several days? Or is this just an active discussion phase?
So, given the somewhat defensive nature of this Salamence I think we might as well roll with it all the way and pair it up with one of the sturdiest walls ever. Mence covers all of Ferrothorn's exploitable weaknesses while Ferro patches up most of Mence's, so they make up an rock-solid defensive core. Most notably, Ferrothorn completely undermines any threat that is posed by Mamoswine and most fairy/dragon types alike. I was going to submit an offensive Choice Band set which I think is more fun to use, but I figured that this Salamence specifically would appreciate a defensive partner in crime better.
I chose Toxic so Ferrothorn can actually beat/weaken both Cresselia and Porygon2 if the need to ever presents itself as they cannot cripple it back with anything of significance, but are an obstacle for Salamence. I guess Rocks could be ran over it, but with all the residual damage this Ferrothorn is capable of on its own, I've personally just never felt the need to use it.
I chose Toxic so Ferrothorn can actually beat/weaken both Cresselia and Porygon2 if the need to ever presents itself as they cannot cripple it back with anything of significance, but are an obstacle for Salamence. I guess Rocks could be ran over it, but with all the residual damage this Ferrothorn is capable of on its own, I've personally just never felt the need to use it.
Well like you said they cant do anything back, you dont even really need anything other than leech seed/protect to beat them. Rocks helps a lot with any setup sweeper imo, breaking Sashes and putting things into range. And like you said ferro and mence handle a lot of eachothers checks so the core naturally forces a lot of switching and rocks punishes that well.
Well like you said they cant do anything back, you dont even really need anything other than leech seed/protect to beat them. Rocks helps a lot with any setup sweeper imo, breaking Sashes and putting things into range. And like you said ferro and mence handle a lot of eachothers checks so the core naturally forces a lot of switching and rocks punishes that well.
Yeah I get it, but with just Leech Seed/Protect it would take soooo long to beat those two, specially Porygon2 that can just spam recover and shrug off the damage. But you do have a point when you say that Toxic is redundant ( I'm aware it is ) while SR adds more utility to it. Well, I don't feel too attached to this moveset anyway, so no objections against changing it. Thanks.
I personally like spare EV's in offense/speed, don't mind fuller bulk investment of course. Can damage a lot of Ice types with Overheat, can burn Garchomp, Mamo and Weavile with Wisp. Can set up reflect to help Salamence Dragon Dance more. Works pretty well with the aforementioned Ferrothorn, too. Gotta hit Sylveon somehow.
Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def / 12 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
Imma stick with this. Azumarill beats Weavile, Mamo and Garchomp for Salamence while also providing Knock Off support and smacking things like Hippo and Tyranitar and Shuca/Balloon Heatran really hard. Hard counters Charizard X (Mence deals with Y) and soft checks Mega Altaria. Mence covers Rotom, Serp, Venusaur and some varieties of Gengar. If this is chosen we'd need to look into a solid check for Thundurus and Mega Manectric.
Just so I make sure I'm fully getting how this type of thread works...Do we just submit and then vote for each Pokemon we plan to use one at a time every several days? Or is this just an active discussion phase?
Yeah the general structure will be discussion, submit, vote.
For the most part there's no reason why you can't submit a two or Pokemon core. As an example, right now we're building around Mence. Not necessarily to bring it every time but it won the first vote so I believe the next two picks should attempt to compliment it. Of course Mence may not need so much support & that's going to give us options at Team Preview.
So Sash Mamoswine and SwagKeyPlay Thundurus; these two can make the holes which Mega Mence can pound through. These particular sets can be tailored in so many different ways, not least to include Rock type coverage on Mamoswine and Volt Switch on Thundy.
As a strategy SwagPlay is devstating. Arguably Klefki would fit well in this slot but I feel that Thundy gives options for alternates when Mence is not brought to the game. Mamoswine benefits from the Sash because as great is Ice for an offensive typing, it's not great defensively. This gives the chance for Rocks to be set up or to KO a potential threat, like Breloom or Garchomp who are often Sashed but detest a multi-hit move like Icicle Spear.
YES I KNOW THIS IS A WEIRD PAIR BUT HEAR ME OUT REAL QUICK. Okay so Greninja is great because it rips holes in an opponent's team, after which Mence can clean up, or vice versa. Also, Mence lures in shit with Ice coverage, like Mixed Blaziken and Suicune. Since these two things in particular (tho there are loads more slightly less relevant ones) beat Gren and normally beat Mence but don't beat this set, we can use the Mence to lure them in, take them out, then let Greninja clean up. There're also a few physical walls that this Mence falls hard to (coughcoughhippocough) that Greninja can beat out.
I don't have a set for Politoed rn since there's a bunch to choose from, but I can explain this Swamp set.
I like running double Megas, and wen doing so both Megas should cover a variety of threats, so you can always bring one of them. I considered other Megas, but Swamp seemed like a fun one that also handles some of what Mence hates, like Mawi, Mamo, Thund without Grass Knot, and Manectric. While Swamp isn't in Mence's top 20 teammates, Mence is #2 for Swamp.
Moves are mostly about what you'd expect from mega Swamp, but I put PuP as an option over Protect since most Cress can do nothing and can thus be set up fodder(even in rain you have a hard time ever breaking Cress,) and it's nice for predicting a switch. Protect also kills off a valuable rain turn, and you'll only really ever get one use of it, to mega, if that. I mean it's still really great so I'm not sure. Sub might be another option for gross status, and I was also thinking about Focus Punch with that, but that probably wouldn't work.
EVs the Spe is for creeping stuff that creeps uninvested Rotoms as a mega, and up to max Scarf base 80s as a mega in rain. Max Atk for fairly obvious reasons, and the rest in HP. Pretty sure moving 8 out of HP for 4 in each defense won't help bulk since Swamp has slightly lower base HP than defenses. I was thinking Damp in case you can predict an Explosion, but Torrent boosted Waterfall from regular Swamp is stronger than mega's. I mean neither would see much use, prolly easier to just go Torrent, really.
Toed doesn't need any explanation with Swamp, as it's pretty much mandatory if you want Swamp. I checked, and max SpA Specs Focus Blast only has a 12.5% to OHKO standard Ferro, but it also might switch in. I can't decide if that's a point in favor of Specs of not. Perish Song is the most common move, and should prolly be on non choice sets. Another tough choice is Eject Button or Damp Rock, since even tho EB means Swamp can abuse the rain immediately without having to switch in to take damage, Damp Rock gives more rain and is therefore perhaps better on offensive Toed since they'll die faster, leaving more rain.
That's because it's common for people to use the dedicated lead swampert (bold/relaxed holding helmet/sitrus with rocks / yawn / roar / scald) to provide a window for Mence to come in and sweep, very similar to using Hippowdon with Dragonite and Lucario.
That Swampert set actually wouldn't be too bad for this actually. I know GroudonEmpire used it a lot with his Salamence.
Edit: that gives me an idea for my nomination...
Swampert @ Rocky Helmet / Sitrus Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Yawn
- Roar
- Scald
Lead. Gets up rocks and applies pressure with Yawn and Roar, often getting something to sleep which allows (either) Mence (or Raikou) to get in and set up. Pretty straight forward.
Mandatory Thundurus check. SubCM can take advantage of Swampert's disruption if we can't use Mence for some reason, but Specs is a great wall breaker and pivot into Mence too. This makes a really solid 3-mon core with Mence.
Heatran @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Flash Cannon
- Flamethrower / Earth Power
- Ancient Power / Earth Power
So this core is designed to complete a Dragon Fairy Steel core, designed to cover all weaknesses and exploit type advantages. This also forms two thirds of the old reliable Fire Water Grass core which could be completed later on. Prankster gives great utility (I've slashed Stun Spore first because I feel speed control is going to be crucial) and Specs Heatran has remarkable power (Ancient Power slashed first for bird spam check).
Solid thund check. Also deals with some annoying stuff like Sash Garchomp, Mawile, and some Greninjas. It can set rocks too which is always great for a sweep but that could be removed if another mon is added to the team thats better at setting rocks. And normally mence and mamo stack a few counters like rotom-w and cress but this mence set isn't bothered by them as much, especially rotom. Since having both of these baits the opponent to bring Rotom, mence can really take advantage of that to get a Facade boost from burn and probably at least two turns of DD.