Blaziken [4F]'+

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Regardless of whether or not Honchkrow is banned, I still think that OHKOing Chansey is something that the faster spread can afford to give up to be faster.

I don't understand this statement at all. Can you please explain to me how any Blaziken spread doesn't OHKO Chansey?

 

[Heysup]

Sorry I wasn't clear at all, I was referring to OHKOing it even at -1 Atk (after a Superpower). I was saying how this wasn't important for the faster spread, because stall breaking is not its main concern.

 

[cim]

I don't see why you would ever need to OHKO Blissey after using Superpower once. That just seems like a waste of EVs.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I talked about this with SDS on IRC for a bit, and i think he mostly agreed about the main part of this.

I really don't think Blaziken should be running any Middle Speed EVs, like the current 184, especially if Honchkrow is gone.

I mean honestly, if you aren't going to be using Blaziken to get the main KOes with Superpower (most notably, OHKOing Registeel, LO Milotic, Azumarill etc), there is no reason to keep it at the power of OHKOing Chansey. If you want to use Blaziken as a "stall/wall breaker", 240 attack is needed, but if you're using Blaziken primarily as a sweeper, what's the issue of 2HKOing Chansey with Fire Blast + Superpower instead of always OHKOing with Superpower?

I suggest we move the primary Speed EVs up to 216 at the very least, to outspeed the now-common Absol. Mainly, I think Blaziken should either be at 216 Spe, or 16 Spe, not in-between.

In this current metagame w/o Honchkrow, I'm not sure which spread is better in other people's opinions (imo the wall breaker is even more superior then it was before due to Azumarill, Max Speed Milotic (faster then the "Fast" blaziken), and Registeel being ridiculously common) but either way, the "Faster" spread should definitely be boosted to 216 Speed if you're going to sacrifice the KOes anyway. I think this is even worth while if Honchkrow isn't banned.

EDIT: Sorry if some of this is difficult to understand, I'm tired lol.

Are you still talking about this? Didn't we already talk about this in this thread?

Whenever there is a change in the tiers, the analyses need to be tweaked, why would you think it would be any different with Blaziken? I agree that it should be pumped to 216 to beat Absol...but as of right now Honchkrow is still legal and better than Absol.

 

[cim]

I've got to ask why you still want "your spread", with no Speed, in the analysis. A good 8 pages of discussion later. It's a lost cause. Speed is important. This is the consensus of every battler who's posted but you. No one cares about OHKOing Chansey after you foolishly throw around Superpower, that's not a good enough reason to lose Speed.

I'm pretty sure SDS never approved of the low Speed spread so I don't know why you're throwing his name into yuor argument to boost its credibilty.

 

[Heysup]

Umm.....What?

All I said was: "The faster spreads Speed EVs need to be 216, because it doesn't lose any "needed" KOes, and outspeeding Absol is definitely worth it. Even though I still think the 240 Atk spread is better, this spread needs to be changed either way."

And just to clarify SDS and I talked about outspeeding Absol being more important in the current metagame. That's all.

Come on guys. That was completely unnecessary.

EDIT: The main reason for me not bringing this up AFTER the tiers are changed, is because there is literally no reason to not increase the speed right now.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

hahahahaha

I didn't agree to shit other than outspeeding Absol, and if he's making you guys think that I did, then you and he are sorely mistaken. What happened is that I told him Blaziken should be faster to outspeed Absol, and he said "lol ok" just like always. That's all. I brought it up.

Anyway, I see no reason not to increase the speed to 216 currently. It doesn't lose any KOs, and Absol is an asshole just as much as Honch is.

Also, Heysup? Quit being a douchebag. Comments like "did you even read my post lol" are unappreciated no matter what. And quit throwing my name around.

 

[cim]

Just to clarify when your post is in this format:

"I talked to SDS"

"maybe we should use my old spread to make it a wall breaker"

"we need to outspeed absol btw"

It would logically follow that you talked to SDS about the entire post, or at least what came immediately after his name. Yes I did "read your post lol". It was confusingly worded. It's cleared up now. Why insult me?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Is this edit finished yet? I, along with every other person in this thread, is getting sick of this retarded argument that isn't even relevant at this point.

Unless you have a tweak to make to the analysis, dont post in this thread anymore. I don't want to see another trolling or insulting post. This goes to everybody, even chrisisme and sds are getting to the point where they are as guilty as heysup has been for the last 8 pages of blaziken bullshit. You guys are badged members, you should know how to respond appropriately even when the person you are arguing with clearly is not and let the moderators do the moderating.

Let's get this finished, Erazor, so it can be put on site and this disaster of a thread can be closed.

 

[Erazor]

I'll go over it one last time, would appreciate a grammar check.
Are the EVs fine as they are at the moment? If so, then this is done I think, except maybe grammar edits.

If Shaymin is banned, then this will need a major edit. However, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[MagicMaster87]

I couldn't check the whole thing because my current attention span is way too short for such a long analysis (note to self: sleep more...), but there were a couple of small things I noticed in the first few sets.

So the analysis now mainly emphasizes the new EV spread for the mixed priority attacker. I also rewrote a few paras.
HeYsUp still deserves most of the credit, the rest of the sets themselves were fine.

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/blaziken

[SET]
name: Mixed (Priority) Attacker
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Superpower
move 3: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
move 4: Vacuum Wave / Stone Edge
item: Life Orb
nature: Mild / Rash
evs: 72 Atk / 252 SpA / 184 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set is designed to take advantage of Blaziken's great offensive stats and break down most of the walls in UU. The strategy is simple - send Blaziken in on a support move or weak [(there was a space in front of the comma)[/I][/B] such as Spiritomb's Will-O-Wisp or Stealth Rock from Registeel or Steelix. After this, proceed to hit the inevitable switch-in with Fire Blast or Hidden Power, and then finish them off with Superpower, or Vacuum Wave if they outspeed Blaziken.</p>

<p>Fire Blast will be your main attack, and Hidden Power is for the common Water-type switch-ins. Both Hidden Powers get the important 2HKO on bulky waters like Slowbro and Milotic, who fall to a Fire Blast followed by Hidden Power, and Superpower followed by Hidden power respectively (Milotic has a very small chance of survival with the most defensive EV spread), as long as Stealth Rock is in play. Other walls such as Registeel and Regice are dispatched by any of Blaziken's STAB attacks, and Chansey is easily OHKOed by Superpower, which lets another special sweeper dominate. Vacuum Wave helps Blaziken become a fairly decent revenge killer as well, nearly OHKOing dangerous Pokemon such as Omastar and Kabutops (if it does not carry Aqua Jet) in the rain.</p>

<p>Another option is to put Stone Edge over Vacuum Wave to hit Altaria, who is the only Pokemon who can safely switch into this set. Vacuum Wave is generally a better choice though, taking into account Blaziken's mediocre Speed and (unnecessary comma) Vacuum Wave's revenge killing power.</p>

<p>The EVs are chosen to capitalize on Blaziken's mixed attacking capabilities, while still managing to outrun some dangerous foes. With 184 Speed EVs, you outspeed pokemon like Honchkrow and Gardevoir, allowing you to beat them before they nail you with their STAB attacks. Maximum Special attack is used to hit walls as hard as possible, while 72 Attack EVs still get the OHKO on Chansey.</p>

<p>A perfectly viable alternate EV spread of 240 Atk/252 SpA/16 Spe is also recommended (typo, forgot "n") for this set. Blaziken becomes one of the best stall breakers in UU with this spread, as it can OHKO or 2HKO almost every Pokemon in UU. The speed EVs let you outspeed minimum speed Milotic, who would otherwise counter Blaziken very well, while giving you a higher chance of taking it out with Superpower followed by a super effective Hidden Power. Some bulky waters like Gastrodon and Omastar fall to a Fire Blast followed by Superpower, and the standard Lanturn is now OHKOed by Superpower assuming Stealth Rock is in play. Note that this spread is better used with Hidden Power Electric. Using this slower EV spread will net you more clean OHKOs against stall teams in case you can't accumulate residual damage, at the cost of being revenge killed by a couple of extra threats that fall in Blaziken's speed tier. Blaziken is one of few Pokemon that can pull off a power for speed trade, so either spread will benefit your team greatly.</p>

<p>The choice of nature does not affect the set too much; it depends on your preference. Mild is suggested for the sole reason that Blaziken makes a very good Spiritomb and Houndoom switch-in. Rash helps you live through other priority users' attacks, such as Arcanine, Hitmontop, or Ambipom. Either of the natures is perfectly fine.</p>

<p>This Blaziken is a great Pokemon to break your opponent's walls such as Registeel, Chansey, and Slowbro, who may cause significant trouble for your sweepers. Mismagius and Espeon make great teammates for Blaziken, because with Registeel and Chansey out of the way they (unnecessary comma) can set up a couple of Calm Minds and sweep the opponent's team. Pokemon such as Swords Dance Drapion can take advantage of a possible Steelix or Regirock kill as well, as they are it's major counters. Azumarill is a good choice with Blaziken too, because with Slowbro out of the way Azumarill (unnecessary comma) can sweep more effectively.</p>

<p>Defensively, Shaymin is a great Pokemon to use alongside Blaziken, as it can take the Water and Ground-type attacks aimed at Blaziken, while dealing with the bulky Water-types and Hariyama that Blaziken may have trouble with. It is also recommended that you carry an Ice-type attack on your team when you use Blaziken, because Altaria severely hinders Blaziken's wall breaking power, as it walls the entire set. Stealth Rock is also needed to take advantage of this set.</p>

[SET]
name: Mixed Agility Sweeper
move 1: Agility
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Hidden Power Electric
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Rash
evs: 192 Atk / 252 SpA / 64 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>An oft-heard complaint about Blaziken is that while it hits hard, it lacks the speed to actually sweep. This is remedied by utilizing Agility to take Blaziken's speed to a whole new level, and is one of its best shots at sweeping.</p>

<p>Fire Blast will be your main sweeping attack, and it (I feel adding "it" makes the sentence sound better) really leaves its mark coming off of base 110 Special Attack. Superpower deals with what Fire Blast cannot, and the drops in attack are not very important as (unnecessary comma) you will be sweeping primarily with special moves. Finally, Hidden Power Electric is used for coverage against bulky waters and Flying types. Most importantly, it allows you to beat Moltres if (unnecessary comma) Stealth Rock is up.</p>

<p>Naturally, Blaziken draws out its counters, but what is remarkable about Blaziken is that it can actually beat its counters before setting up its sweep. The EVs reflect this, allowing you to KO Milotic with Hidden Power followed by Superpower, assuming Stealth Rock in play. Maximum Special Attack (capitalization) allows Fire Blast to outright annihilate most things that do not resist it. 64 Speed EVs outspeeds Adamant Torterra before an agility, and outspeeds Choice Scarf users such as Roserade and Moltres after an agility.</p>

<p>The item choice is slightly tricky. Life Orb is preferred because of the damage output against neutrally-hit Pokemon such as Hariyama, but Expert Belt lets you bluff a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs set before you use Agility, and you take no recoil damage. A Rash nature is used over Mild because this set needs as much protection against priority attacks as possible.</p>

<p>This set works a lot like the previous set, but without priority; instead, it increases its Speed. (replaced comma with semicolon and added a comma after "instead" to help the sentence flow better. Also, caps on "speed") Since this variant of Blaziken is a stand-alone sweeper (as in it breaks walls for itself), this set only has trouble with Pokemon like Altaria, Slowking, and Hariyama, who wall this set with their resistances and bulkiness. One of the best ways to deal with Altaria is to use a Pokemon such as Shaymin who can lure it in on a Seed Flare and (unnecessary comma) OHKO it with Hidden Power Ice. In fact, any Pokemon who can lure in Altaria and hit it with an Ice-type attack is a good partner for Blaziken. Stealth Rock also helps, due to Altaria taking 25% every time it switches in. Honchrow makes a perfect partner with Blaziken as well, beating Hariyama with its STAB Drill Peck, as well as trapping Slowking with its STAB Pursuit. Even though this set functions fine without any other boosts, it can benefit greatly from Calm Mind boosts from Espeon, who can Baton Pass to Blaziken on any Bug or Dark-type attack aimed at Espeon.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Focus Blast / Focus Punch
move 3: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Ice
move 4: Vacuum Wave
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Blaziken can forego wall breaking for a Specs set, and uses it efficiently. The most attractive thing about this set is that you have a very powerful priority move in Vacuum Wave. This allows Blaziken to function as a late game priority sweeper, and even though it doesn't have Technician, it has a very respectable Special Attack stat to work off.</p>

<p>Focus Blast always gets the 2HKO on Milotic and Chansey, and Blissey in OU, as well as the OHKO on Clefable, and is a very powerful secondary STAB attack. The 70 accuracy is a bit of a turn off though, so Focus Punch is also an option. Focus Punch always gets an OHKO on Chansey and Clefable, even with a hindering nature.</p>

<p>There are other options for the Hidden Power slot with this set, such as Hidden Power Rock, which hits Moltres and Charizard, who are otherwise some of the safest switch-ins to this set. Hidden Power Ice can be used if you find Altaria (another safe switch-in to this set) walling you too often, since ("while" makes it sound like you're listing another option) Blaziken's Fire Blast has a very good (97%) chance to 2HKO Slowbro with Stealth Rock up anyway. Using those Hidden Power types means you need to rely on Focus Blast's 70 accuracy to take out Milotic in two hits, though.</p>

[SET]
name: Physical Choice
move 1: Flare Blitz
move 2: Superpower
move 3: ThunderPunch
move 4: Stone Edge / Blaze Kick
item: Choice Band / Choice Scarf
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Blaziken can be a powerful sweeper with its superior Attack stat and movepool. With two 120 base power STAB attacks coming off a base 120 Attack stat, many Pokemon will think twice before switching into this monster. ThunderPunch is an excellent move for Blaziken on this set, as a Choice Band boosted ThunderPunch always 2HKOs Milotic, which is one of the safer switch-ins to the other sets. The sheer power of a Choice Band boosted Flare Blitz can OHKO a good portion of the metagame on its own, such as Crobat. It also 2HKOs most defensive Pokemon as well. Altaria, who would otherwise commonly switch in to any of the other sets, is 2HKOed with Stealth Rock in play, though a predicted Stone Edge will OHKO the poor dragon. The main disadvantage of using this set, however, is that Slowbro (removed unnecessary "it") can switch in to it all day, with ThunderPunch barely missing out on the 2HKO.</p>

<p>With a Choice Scarf, Blaziken is a more powerful revenge killer than with the mixed set, but it will not last as long due to recoil, and may be set up on by a physically defensive Pokemon.</p>

<p>The reason Blaze Kick is an option on this set is because Flare Blitz comes with a price, recoil. However, Blaziken can use this recoil to it's advantage and sweep teams late game with a Blaze boosted Blaze Kick, which has a nice 127.5 base power after Blaze is activated.</p>

<p>This Blaziken variant takes out many of the Pokemon that the Life Orb and Choice Specs sets cannot, such as Altaria, but gets walled by Pokemon such as Slowbro. As such, Blaziken benefits from a Pokemon who can easily switch in on Slowbro and threaten the opponent's team. Pokemon like Roserade and Shaymin, similar to the other sets, can switch in on Slowbro and threaten it with a STAB Grass attack.</p>

<p>Special attacking Pokemon in general appreciate the fact that Blaziken can take out many of the special walls with this set. Pokemon such as Espeon, Mismagius, and many other special attackers benefit from Altaria going down, as well as the other Pokemon taking their special hits with ease.</p>

You seem to use commas a bit too much when you don't really need to (or Heysup does, if he's the one who originally wrote these sets). If I get the time later, I'll go through the rest of the sets (most likely only sections at a time like I did now, though, this really is a huge analysis...).

 

[Erazor]

Thanks, will edit those nitpicks in.

 

[franky]

Mixed Priority attacker

<p>This set is designed to take advantage of Blaziken's great offensive stats and break down most of the walls in UU. The strategy is simple - send Blaziken in on a support move or a (added a)weak attack, (used to be attack , )such as Spiritomb's Will-O-Wisp or Stealth Rock from Registeel or Steelix. After this, proceed to hit the inevitable switch-in with Fire Blast or Hidden Power, and then finish them off with Superpower, or Vacuum Wave if they outspeed Blaziken.</p>

Quick 2 cents, otherwise the entire thing was good

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Just wanted to point out that Dugtrio is now UU, so you might want to add a bit in this analysis regarding that because Dugtrio now destroys every unboosted Blaziken set no matter what you do.

350 Atk vs 176 Def & 212 HP (40 Base Power): 111 - 132 (52.36% - 62.26%)

That is the best Blaziken can muster against Dugtrio, an LO +SpAtk Vacuum Wave.

 

[Erazor]

Just wanted to point out that Dugtrio is now UU, so you might want to add a bit in this analysis regarding that because Dugtrio now destroys every unboosted Blaziken set no matter what you do.

350 Atk vs 176 Def & 212 HP (40 Base Power): 111 - 132 (52.36% - 62.26%)

That is the best Blaziken can muster against Dugtrio, an LO +SpAtk Vacuum Wave.

Yeah, I'm going to overhaul it after the voting anyway. Will add Dugtrio, and Donphan as well for Physical sets. And hopefully remove Shaymin and Crobat.

 

[Erazor]

Well, it looks as though Crobat and Shaymin won't be returning. I've removed all references to them, though I may have missed one or two.

If it's fine, than I think we can get this on-site.

 

[Heysup]

Sorry in case I missed it, but what's the point of having Attack EVs on the Mixed Priority attacker? It doesn't even get any "notable" KOes, the only thing it will do is let you KO Chansey with a -1 Superpower. Not to mention, outspeeding Absol, and having a tie at worst with other base 80s makes it worth it, having your speed in the middle is very pointless in the UU metagame IMO.

 

[d2m]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I read over the analysis and there is no Swords Dance set apart from a mention on the Reversal set which is completely different. Doesn't that deserve a mention? SD Blaziken can 2HKO pretty much the entire tier.

 

[Heysup]

The reasons I originally removed it are:

a) It was, at the time, outclassed by Gallade (for the reasons that will be listed)

b) It is too slow to abuse Swords Dance, without a priority Attack to remedy it.

c) It has no "solid" Physical sweeping moves, such as Close Combat. It's stuck with a not-so-accurate and not-so-powerful Blaze Kick, weak Fire Punch, or suicidal Flare Blitz, while also relying on Superpower with its -1 Atk effect, or Sky Uppercut and its lack of perfect accuracy and power.

d) The other sets are all better.

 

[d2m]

The reasons I originally removed it are:

a) It was, at the time, outclassed by Gallade (for the reasons that will be listed)

b) It is too slow to abuse Swords Dance, without a priority Attack to remedy it.

c) It has no "solid" Physical sweeping moves, such as Close Combat. It's stuck with a not-so-accurate and not-so-powerful Blaze Kick, weak Fire Punch, or suicidal Flare Blitz, while also relying on Superpower with its -1 Atk effect, or Sky Uppercut and its lack of perfect accuracy and power.

d) The other sets are all better.

The thing it, it's designed to be a stall killer, +2 Flare Blitz will KO almost any physical wall, and Superpower takes care of the rest, even if he doesn't sweep the entire team, he'll crack it wide open, it's certainly better than giving him a Choice Band.

 

[Heysup]

But the Pokemon switching in will likely either outspeed it, resist Fire, or have Blaziken KO itself with Flare Blitz. Take Milotic, Slowbro, and the like for example, which it still can't beat with +2, while Choice Band can actually break through these walls.

 

[d2m]

+2 LO Thunderpunch from an Adamant Blaziken to a Bold 252/252 Slowbro: (75.13% - 88.83%)

+2 LO Thunderpunch from an Adamant Blaziken to a Bold 252/252 Milotic: (93.91% - 110.66%)

Assuming the SD on the switch, with Speed EVs, he'll outspeed Milotic (because you don't need to dump some into both Atk and SpA).

For Shiz:

+2 Flare Blitz on 252/252 Bold Spiritomb: (118.42% - 139.47%)

+1 Flare Blitz on 252/252 Bold Hitmontop: (97.04% - 114.47%)

+2 Superpower on 252/252 Bold Regirock: (93.96% - 110.99%)

1-2HKOs all common Physical Walls. Even if he dies of LO or Flare Blitz recoil, it's just asking for an Absol, Honchkrow, or other physical sweeper to finish everyone else off.

 

[Heysup]

Well I see what you're saying, but I'm not saying it's a "Bad" set. I'm saying for practical reasons, Choice Band is almost always better since it's not really any easier for Blaziken to sweep with +2 then it is to sweep with a Choice Band.

Though, it was mentioned in the SC's of the "old" MP attacker, so maybe another set is needed now.

My main issue is: The other sets are more effective, AND the analysis has too many sets already, not that it's a bad option or set.

 

[Stellar]

There isn't a set number of sets in an analysis so there is no such thing as "too many" (look at Clefable for proof). Swords Dance is used and is usable, so it should be included.

 

[d2m]

Well I see what you're saying, but I'm not saying it's a "Bad" set. I'm saying for practical reasons, Choice Band is almost always better since it's not really any easier for Blaziken to sweep with +2 then it is to sweep with a Choice Band.

Though, it was mentioned in the SC's of the "old" MP attacker, so maybe another set is needed now.

My main issue is: The other sets are more effective, AND the analysis has too many sets already, not that it's a bad option or set.

Normally, stall teams I ran into had a physically bulky Foresight top and a Spiritomb or Slowbro. That means you have to predict correctly which one he's going to to get a KO, then you're locked in something that probably won't kill anyone else on his team. It's also slightly weaker.