Hello guys, just want to tell you about my thoughts (sorry Haunter I've never played to high level or tournaments, but still I think I have some experience in pokegaming, and I finally get through those 71 pages, so I really want to give my opinion).
Well, it seems like nothing good and NEW were pointed out for a lot of pages, except the Punchshroom's proposition. That's still getting in "NO BP are not broken" -> "Yes they are" -> "Let the meta evolve" blah blah blah (don't you think so Kairyu?). Given this whole thread (yeah i successfully went through those 71 pages, with a number increasing by 2 each time I slept...), I really think there will be a nerf to BP teams, and that this playstyle won't be banned. It's also clear that BP is not going to be ban, nor Scolipede, Espeon, Magic Bounce+BP, Speed Boost+BP, and that's a good thing to my mind. Moreover, we are (or not) arguing about how many BP users should be allowed in one team (I really think this is what's going to happen). Some say 3, 4, sometimes 2 and even 1 in one post. The last proposition, as I said, was Punchshroom's one, creating a "Baton Pass Clause". First, I'll say that I totally disagree with that, sorry. This would completely kill BP teams, and that's not what this thread is for (if I'm not misunderstanding).
Now let's talk about my experiences and my opinion with BP and possible nerfs. I always find it hard to counter, even in BW, and often lose to them (or win thanks to a crit, but I'm the luckiest man on earth so that doesn't count). I've talked with many moderators, from various communities, and with a lot of players from the upper ladder, and they all told me : "BP is for the noob, it does well in the low-ladder but doesn't stand a chance in the upper one, which are well-built". So I acknowledged that I was a bad player, that I didn't build good teams. Even this gen, with the famous Deniss, I looked at some replay, showing him battling my strong friends, and they won. But still, the fact is that BP is, now and to my mind, too strong (not broken) and should be nerfed. By reading those 71 pages, I was surprised that a lot of replay were taken as evidence that BP is broken (example : Dauude SS vs. Deniss), but the ones showing the contrary were fully ignored. Not to mention those match when Dauude SS won against Deniss, another replay showing an original STALL team with Mantine if I remember well, which won easily against team. Now I'm not advocating BP, but the argument "BP is don't fun to play against" blinded many people, and isn't the true reason why we should nerf it. We should nerf it for the same reason we ban things : when played well (yes it requires little skill but it requires some, I can assert that if I let my little brother play with the Deniss's team, even if he once went through 30 match in the subway, he would surely lose against a good player), it is able to win more than half of your matchs, and your opponent literraly can't do anything against that (and also it broughts up too much obscure counters when it is known that a playstyle can't be countered). I think that near everyone agree with the fact that it should be nerfed anyway.
The question is : how should it be nerfed ? The best option is to limit number of BP users on the same team : not a very complex ban (I suppose ?), and it really does something. Because banning Speed Boost, or Scolipede, or Espeon, or Magic bounce, won't REALLY be a problem for BP teams : they'll adapt to it, running Zapdos for instance, or trying to check your taunter/PHazer with some stuff like Mr.Mime, Smeargle or anything else (and still, it will force you to run a taunter/PHazer you wouldn't have put in your team without BP). Ban Magic Bounce + Speed Boost can, however, kill it, and this is not what we want to do, don't we ? So the best solution is to limit number of BP user, because after all, it's the BP strategy : have many pokemons using it. This number is the only thing we have to decide left, stop focusing on other debates and let's finally find the solution, we can see the light at the end of the tunnel now.
So, how many of them allowed ?
5 : I don't think that's a good idea. The classic BP is : Scolipede (ID, SB, Mental Herb), Espeon (Magic bounce, CM, SP), Sylveon (Fairy, Hyper voice, CM), Vaporeon (Roar, Acid armor), Smeargle (Ingrain, QD, spore), Mr Mime (fairy, Soudproof) OR occasional Zapdos (typing, agility, what else ?). Most of the time, if we sacrifice a pokemon, or if there is one useless in this team, it's Mr Mime. Sylveon is fairy-type, ingrain prevents Roar and so does Espeon. He has bad defenses, and the only thing he does well is countering requiem(and some soundbased move going through sub). To me, decrease the number to 5 will let obscure (or not obscure) "counters" work better against BP, but don't let a big part of the metagame be efficient. So, it will encourage running those checks, and it will be worst.
1 and 2 : NO. Simply, we don't want to kill BP. That's all.
3 : I'm pretty sure that when someone build a BP team (oh, forgot that noone does that xD ), 2 pokemons are mandatory ( and have been the most subject to ban) : Espeon and Scolipede. So, assuming that it's the start of your team : obviously, it get wrecked by a LOT of COMMON things : REALLY strong physical attackers(flyspam? and not the only one), strong special attackers, set up sweeper, taunt-sweeper user (dark type are better, being immune to stored power), PHazer able to destroy that frail Espeon, and so on and blah blah blah. And you have only ONE pokemon to fix that. Put Vaporeon in your team : physical sweepers and set up sweeper no longer (to some extent) afraid you, but that's all. Add Sylveon and those special attackers, and dark types, no longer bother you. With Smeargle, you're definitively immune to PHazing move, have a last resort solution in Spore, and have a REALLY REALLY usefull healing, because noone seems to bring it up but no member of the team has a recovering move, they only rely on Leftovers and many of them don't run it (first is Scolipede), so Ingrain really helps you (against status for example). And with Zapdos, mmmh no just run Vaporeon.
Now, you can see that 3 pokemon is far from allowing BP teams to be effective. Before, BP often had an auto-win, now they have the same amount of auto-lose( well, not really auto-lose, but they start with a real disadvantage, so it's not viable).
So, I will argue for 4 Baton passer : with 4 BP users, the playstyle become a viable strategy, but not overpowered. It lacks some usefull members of the team, is difficult to deal with but possible with every kind of team. Same situations as before happen, but you can cover more weaknesses, and still being weak against common threats. With Scolipede+Espeon+Vaporeon+Sylveon, I can assert that you REALLY lack Ingrain (if you don't believe me, just look at the 4 players at the top of the ladder, look the replays against Deniss and you'll understand), and you also lack a usefull Spore. Putting Smeargle mean another weakness (special attackers, set up sweepers, strong attackers, dark PHazer, etc.). And the like of M-Pinsir, Talonflame, M-Gardevoir are more and more efficient against them. So Zapdos will may be put in the place of Scolipede, or anything else, I don't know how this is gonna evolve, but this is gonna evolve and that's a good thing. Also, having only 4 mons mean you can't make any mistake, and I really think that skill will be needed. Moreover, we don't even know how the 2 last places will be used, and I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen.
Finally, I'll say that the decision is obviously to be made between 3 or 4. If we start with 3, we won't know if 4 would have been enough, but if we choose 4 and we still considere BP as too strong, let's go to 3 (just like the komi in GO starting to 0, then 5.5, then 6.5, then 7.5 if you know what I mean, people who understand ;) )
PS: I apologize for all the mistakes I could have done, my English isn't perfect ><
