Baton Pass in NU

[Elegy96]

After being raged at for using a new Baton Pass team of mine the other day (twice, winning once and losing once), I discovered that there are very mixed opinions on the move. Some people dismiss the strategy as a whole, calling it cheap, and saying how it requires 0 skill to use well. Others base whole teams around the move and it's users such as Ninjask.

Where do you stand on this matter? Is Baton Pass even viable in today's metagame? Who are the best users and recipients? Is it as cheap as some say?
Any good sets posted will be added to the OP. I've categorized Pokemon in terms of what stats they pass or receive.

Attack Passers

a

Defense Passers

b

Special Attack Passers

c

Special Defense Passers

d

Speed Passers

e

Other Passers

f

Recipients

z

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I used a baton pass team a good while ago when I was a pretty bad player and people often got pissed after me, but I don't think it's cheap really. In NU it's usualy pretty easy to ruin with encore roar haze or something else, not having espeon in the tier will often guaranty you a loss if the opponent has one of the listed moves and a decent team.

 

[Lady Shinki]

Baton Pass isn't cheap at all. Unfortunately very few people do much more than slap Ninjask on a team and expect it to work miracles, but a dedicated team can be very strong even with phazing options being fairly prominent in the tier and most bulky rocks having Rock Blast. Musharna, Absol, Mawile, Drifblim, and the like are all extremely underrated baton passers that can simultaneously abuse the boosts they pass on. Sawsbuck and Emolga can both come in on their respective immunities and baton pass the boost they get out after hitting the opponent around with it. Ninjask is overused as hell but it still pairs well with offensive pokemon that can use the speed like Golurk and Marowak. Masquerain can Baton Pass Quiver Dance, which lets it attempt to play like Venomoth, Intimidate a physical attacker, set up a couple QDs, then go to something like Seismitoad to wreck somebody's day.

Very viable, certainly underused and not respected at all because it's usually noobs that try to use it and expect to win.

 

[SpecsX]

I used a Baton Pass Hone Claws Ninjask. I Baton Pass to LO Zweilous with Outrage/Aqua Tail/Fire Fang/Dragon Claw. It destroyed when it worked, but it didn't work if there was a Rock Blaster in the lead slot(and when I used the pair, Golem was realy common). +1 Accuracy/+1 Attack/+2 Speed Zweilous... good memories

 

[jake]

To be honest though, a well-built full BP team can absolutely ravage standard teams. I mean what are common users of Roar? Bastiodon, Lairon, Camerupt? That's all that I can even think of, and there are even less Whirlwind users (cannot be blocked by Soundproof, ie Mr. Mime). Common users of Encore? Uhh... Raichu, Kadabra. That's all you'll ever see of that, and even then quite a few people don't even use that. Haze? Weezing and Wartortle (lol). Most people opt for Clear Smog when it's available, too, and that often doesn't even 3HKO subs after a boost or two. BP is an incredibly viable and unappreciated style that basically wins or loses games based on initial matchup (and luck, of course!).

Anyway, I used to ladder around with a BP team back when we were on PO and I was undefeated for the longest time, simply because people weren't prepared (and then I lost to Haze Wartortle + Roar Lairon on the same team -_-). Ninjask is absolutely essential for any BP team imo; there's no other way to give your teammates speed more reliably or efficiently, and getting speed into your BP chain is the most important thing to do, always. Otherwise, you risk getting outsped and destroyed before you can pass off to a teammate that could handle said thread. Rock Blast Golem and the like were mentioned, but I don't really think they're as big of a threat to BP teams as you might think. Ninjask only needs to Protect once, and then you can BP to something like Gorebyss or Leafeon and either kill it outright or stack up Iron Defense boosts. You can even pivot to Mawile and grab an Intimidate on it to make it even easier to deal with, if you wanted.

The only other essential in my mind is Musharna. There is absolutely no better cleaner for an NU BP team in existence than Musharna. Even if you can't get any Calm Mind boosts from Girafarig, Drifblim, Mr. Mime, etc, you can still just annihilate everything with a 200+ BP Stored Power and tank priority attacks with Musharna's great bulk. It also gets Moonlight and Heal Bell, if you want either of those.

 

[Annoyer]

Baton Pass can be an extremely deadly playstyle, but I find it a bit too unreliable because of team-matchup (and a bit luck-based). One of the best counters to Baton Pass which is underaprecciated (as a Baton Pass counter) is Garbodor. It's access to Haze/Clear Smog and Rock Blast can easily destroy any chains. Not even Musharna can touch it since Stored Power does diddly damage with no boosts. The ladder noobs really give it a bad rep (Probopass breaks Ninjask's subs with Flash Cannon, Ladder Noob proceeds to Baton Pass into Rampardos which becomes ded). Taunt is also decently common with users such as Skuntank (the main one), Mawile, Golbat, and Vigoroth since that move can easily disrupt any chain. Boosting alongside with major threats such as SD Rott, CM Musharna, and SubBU Braviary or blasting the opposition with hard-hitting attacks from the likes of CB Emboar, CB Braviary, and Zangoose (which can be dealt with by subbing a lot) can really pressure Baton Pass chains. Cinccino can also be quite annoying considering it's sub-breaking capabilities, but luckily Mawile deals with it extremely well. Swoobat could also be a pretty good recipient considering Simple since Musharna will need a lot of Speed Boosts to outspeed the opponent (which doesn't matter much since not a lot OHKOs it). As a side note, uninvested Musharna at +6 outspeeds Swellow by one point (DD Fraxure-like anyone). Just playing good in general can stop Baton Pass teams such as U-turning or Volt Switching on the Baton Pass or predicting the switch-in. I might actually start using Baton Pass once again since it looks like it has a pretty good team matchup against most of the teams I have been seeing lately. Too bad I'll get critted a shit ton but that's what makes the game fun, right? (lol no)

 

[breh]

There is literally no way to beat a Baton Pass team outside of the following:

Hax
Toxic Spikes
Haze
Whirlwind (not necessary if opponent runs Cradily)
Taunt
Occasionally, good play, especially with luck and luck involving klang (having rocks + klang helps)

Barring those moves, nothing beats BP. NOTHING.

Also, guys: assume we are talking about full bp with a competent player, not with ladder noobs. This means jask/Mr. Mime/Mawile/Musharna/fillers.

 

[jake]

@ Annoyer

To be fair, many of the things you mentioned are handled entirely through team building. Outside of stacking Toxic Spikes, Garbodor gets thrashed by BP. Haze is illegal with Spikes iirc, so you'll probably not be using that unless you're using mono-TSpikes Garbo. Clear Smog is also outright stopped by Mawile. Boosting along often doesn't mean much when a dedicated BP team has the resources to outboost you and to boost their defenses as well. CB Emboar / Braviary? Sub up to see what they lock themselves into, then BP to a resist and continue boosting. Getting in the early Speed + Defense boosts are essential, especially since NU is so physically oriented. SD Samurott is probably the most dangerous of the threats you listed thanks to its stupid coverage, but even it can be handled by stuff like Gorebyss, who can sit there and boost up with Iron Defense and then BP to Leafeon or something who can kill rott. I also usually run a significant Speed investment with Musharna simply because it's so pathetically slow that it's not even worth it to BP anything less than +4 Speed.

Just playing good in general can stop Baton Pass teams such as U-turning or Volt Switching on the Baton Pass or predicting the switch-in.

Unless you play absolutely top-notch and the BP user plays averagely or subpar, you cannot break BP chains simply through good play alone (luck!). Relying on luck to do the trick isn't enough. :/

 

[Dell]

Am I the only one that believes that BP teams used at top level play is nigh impossible to stop, even in NU? It's definitely underrated in its own right, with incredible rewards if the opponent is not prepared, and even so, good amounts of prediction is essential to even stand out. Definitely a threat to look out for in standard NU teams.

 

[Vileman]

Well i havent made a full baton pass team but i had been running a ninjask + marowak combo. The massive attack of marowak can break through a lot of things, even walls. ive ben running admant with 252 attack, 216 speed, 42 hp for extra bulk which really helps for taking some priority moves ike quick atack from sweelow and another stuff.
Also, giing the speed boosts its something almost guaranteed if the opponent doesnt has a phazer or a multihit poke, im not mentioning encore because ive never really seen someone use a poke with it. The things that at the moment has been able to stop ninjask from passing are golem, garbordor, cinccino and priority users like samurrot and swellow (althought not very common).
Another thing to consider about ninjask + poke with lots of attack core its that ninjask as said, will almost always give the speed but it can also pass subs and attack. Somethimes when facing support pokes they just set up on ninjask ad let it grab the +2 on attack or/and a sub. And when that succeeds...everything just dies.

 

[Dell]

Multi-hit moves does not prevent Ninjask from passing Speed Boosts. Ninjask can simply Protect, scouting the move, thus adding the speed, then pass it to the proper recipient.

 

[breh]

Ok, again, let's keep this thread about full bp and not about "Ninjask passes to something random".

 

[bean1706]

Doesn't Perish Song also stop BP? So stuff like Murkrow or Misdreavus could potentially stop a chain.

 

[steviestar]

Mr. Mime doesn't care about perish song.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

When I joined Smogon, during Generation III, Baton Pass was quite a big thing, and Ninjask was in OU at the time. Even sub-passing was quite a common strategy, especially with Smeargle, Vaporeon and Jolteon, for example (infact, Baton Pass was probably the MAIN reason to use those Pokemon).

As a result, people prepared their own teams to fight Baton Pass teams (I even remember multi-hit moves like Rock Blast sometimes being suggested on Pokemon for this reason), and after not long I started seeing people saying stuff like "Baton Pass sucks", "It's so easy to counter", etc. And it became seen as a n00bish strategy and slowly started disappearing.

So now, in my opinion, it's quite an underrated strategy, especially now that we're back in a state where teams don't over-prepare for it like they did towards the end of Gen III. And a lot of people don't want to use it anymore because it's seen as n00bish (i.e. you get a lot of players low down the ladder trying to pass stat boosts everywhere to make a "super Pokemon", but they don't do it right, and fail, thus looking stupid, and making Baton Pass as a whole also look stupid).

Not saying it's the best strategy ever, but I think people do overlook it. I'm still surprised the Smash-passing strategy never got used in OU more than it did.

 

[WhiteDMist]

I would like to point out that Volbeat is also a great user of Encore, and it basically freezes a Baton Pass chain unless the user is setting up defensive boosts (if it isn't a weather setter, it can also pass Tail Glows so that something else can break through the defensive boosts). Volbeat is also a fun member of Baton Pass chains with its priority Baton Pass, Substitute, and Tail Glows. Also, many Baton Pass chains follow a similar formula of Ninjask, Mr. Mime, defensive booster(s), offensive booster, Musharna and other recipients. While that alone isn't a bad thing, it basically guarantees that a smart player will know they are facing a Baton Pass team and will work to interrupt your chain. That's not to say that Baton Pass teams can't recover from having their chain stopped, but usually its either do or die... I have to vote that it is not cheap.

 

[Ashley11]

I use a volbeat on my baton pass team in NU, and it does great. Prankster and Encore is amazing together, and tail glow gives it +3 attack. I also use substitute with it, which works just as well as tail glow. I think baton pass requires a lot of skill. You have to predict which move the opponet will use when you baton pass, or it will be a waste. A wish passer is also much needed too, to keep the baton passer healthy. It takes a lot of skill to use baton pass in my opinion. When I use baton pass, I use Volbeat, ninjask, and mr.mime. I reccomend volbeat a lot

 

[Ghostbone]

Murkrow can still mess up the chain with priority perish song though.

Glaceon is also a good receiver, ice beams hits most of the whirlwind pokes super effectively so they can be worn down, and it has decent bulk especially with defensive boosts passed to it, and has access to stored power. Plus it's not extremely slow like musharna, and at +3 speed will be outspeeding everything.

 

[Haineskid712]

Honestly, Baton Pass is easily beatable. And it does take a little bit of skill to play, because you have to know what to switch into. But as long as you have priority on your team then you should be more than capable of beating a BP team. I've beaten my fair share of BP teams with just priority moves, or my scarfed Zebstrika.

 

[A Critical Hit]

Multi-hit moves does not prevent Ninjask from passing Speed Boosts. Ninjask can simply Protect, scouting the move, thus adding the speed, then pass it to the proper recipient.

This is what usually happens to me. Everyone says Rock Blast is a good counter but the pokes that use it are slow and tends to miss just like stone miss despite higher accuracy (this has cost me games). Either way, it gets a speed boost out of it and if it can get SD to a bulky mon w/ speed, GG.


The question was that if BP is cheap? I would have to say no but it is a highly effective playstyle that absolutely DESTROYS standard teams (like mine). I be hard pressed to counter a good BP that has a back up plan for hazing moves. I guess that's where prediction comes into play.

 

[jake]

Honestly, Baton Pass is easily beatable. And it does take a little bit of skill to play, because you have to know what to switch into. But as long as you have priority on your team then you should be more than capable of beating a BP team. I've beaten my fair share of BP teams with just priority moves, or my scarfed Zebstrika.

How does having priority enable you to defeat a well-built BP team?

 

[Ghostbone]

Well volt-turning + priority can help to break down the BP team but if they have enough defensive boosts it won't matter.

Basically taunt/whirlwind/haze and priority encore are all good options to stop baton pass, haze being the best obviously.
Taunt and whirlwind can be beaten by magic coat which a booster will occasionally have, but in general they're much easier to fit on a team than haze.

 

[DTC]

Hey, guys, I have an idea: since a lot of us are talking about the potential of full-on NU Baton Pass teams being incredibly powerful, let's make one itt.

Musharna, Mawile, and Ninjask all seem like givens. Musharna has the ability to sweep and its fantastic at setting up Calm Mind, Mawile is the only Steel-type Baton Passer and it can Baton Pass Swords Dance and Iron Defense, and Ninjask has that awesome Speed Boost ability.

Also, thanks Elegy for starting a few discussion topics around the NU sub-forum lately; we could use more discussion. Just a little note next time, though: you probably should be more specific when posting a topic about something like this, because the name implies many things. There's full on Baton Pass, SubPassing, and QuickPassing.

 

[jake]

Well volt-turning + priority can help to break down the BP team but if they have enough defensive boosts it won't matter.

My point was that priority has absolutely no bearing on a well-built full BP team. Every team should be carrying either Leafeon or Gorebyss to handle Golems anyway, so Aqua Jet from anything is pretty much out of the question. You're dumb if you think Sucker Punch is going to do anything to anyone, and even a Toxic Boost-boosted Quick Attack from Zangoose does jack all to many BP receivers. Scarf Zebstrika is equally bad, as Ninjask should always be running 36 Spe to outrun it after a Protect and then you can just BP to something else that can deal with it.

I'd rather not turn this into a CCAT because those always crash and burn and are generally really dumb. You can post your favorite sets to use if you want, but there will be no community teambuilding here.

 

[Ghostbone]

Well the idea is that you hit the frailer members with priority before they baton pass.

Anyway I wouldn't say musharna is necessary, with Mr.mime(who is absolutely necessary to absorb roar and perish song) that just compounds your bug weakness.

A fire resist is necessary, and the main two options are solrock and gorebyss.
Gorebyss has aqua ring while solrock has a nifty ground immunity and cosmic power.

Past that you have some freedom with your sweeper, something with stored power ideally.