Backfire

[dhelmise]

Approved by Eevee General and The Immortal

credit zangloser

Backfire​

Every move that has a chance to affect the foe or user, such as Scald (burns the foe) and Close Combat (lowers the user's Defense and Special Defense), has an equal chance to affect the user or foe respectively!

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Rules:

Mechanic: Moves that have a chance to affect the foe/user have an equal chance to affect the user/foe.
Clauses: Standard OU clauses
Bans: Standard OU banlist​

Strategy:
Normally, Pokemon rely a lot on the secondary effects of their moves to help them KO foes. Now that all Fire Fang (etc.) users have a chance to burn (etc.) themselves, as well as Close Combat (etc.) users can lower the foe's defenses (etc.), different moves will become a lot more viable.

Increased Viability:

Malamar: Now that Superpower's Attack and Defense drops are applied to the foe as well, Contrary Malamar will become a lot more common due to the fact that it gets boosts while other Pokemon suffer.

Serperior: Same logic as above, Serperior can sharply raise its Special Attack with Leaf Storm while the other foes suffer from harsh Special Attack drops.

Bisharp: Now that Serperior will lower Bisharp's Special Attack from Leaf Storm, it gets a free Defiant boost and can KO it in return with Sucker Punch.

Metagross: Metagross doesn't have to suffer from the Attack, Defense, and Special Attack drops from Contrary users.​

Decreased Viability:

Azumarill: Not only is Azumarill a physical Water-type, two of the four moves it can potentially use, Knock Off and Play Rough, remove its item to make it weaker and lower its Attack, respectively.

Special Water-types: All special Water-types tend to rely on Scald to burn physical threats on the other team, and while burns may not directly affect their stronger attacking stat, it makes them lose health. Manaphy specifically tends to hurt from this, as its three other usable moves, Ice Beam, Psychic, and Energy Ball, all either freeze it or lower its Special Defense.

Mega Diancie: All three of Mega Diancie's moves cripple it in some shape or form. Diamond Storm, while it raises Mega Diancie's Defense, can now raise the foe's Defense, causing its only physical attack to do even less damage. Moonblast lowers the foe's Special Attack, meaning that Mega Diancie again can cripple itself by using its STAB move. Earth Power, Mega Diancie's main coverage move, lowers the foe's Special Defense, and as such lowers Mega Diancie's Special Defense, making it more specially frail.​

Q&A:

Q: Does this only work for moves with secondary effects?
A: Yes! Moves such as Scald and Ice Beam, which have a chance to burn and freeze the foe respectively, can also burn/freeze the user. Along with this, If you have an Infernape that uses Close Combat, not only will it lower its defenses, it will also lower the defenses of the foe!

Q: Do both Pokemon have their own RNG? Or does this work like Synchronize?
A: Pokemon have their own RNG, meaning that if Manaphy uses Scald against a Pokemon, there's a separate 30% chance that Manaphy gets burned.

Q: How do status moves work?
A: Status moves like Toxic and Swords Dance only affect the foe (Toxic) and user (Swords Dance) respectively.

Q: What about recoil? Knock Off?
A: Well, since recoil affects the user, then yes, it affects the foe. And yes, since Knock Off removes the foe's item, it sadly has to remove the user's.

Q: How does flinching work?
A: Flinching is unchanged, as a Pokemon cannot flinch immediately after it moves, as it has already moved.​

Resources:

Playability: Not playable anywhere yet.

Council:

Rhythms (leader)

bp scrub (co-leader)
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Ban history:

TBA
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Replays:

TBA​

 

[dhelmise]

reserved for viability rankings

 

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reserved for sample teams (aka team archive)

 

[dhelmise]

reserved for speed tiers

 

[dhelmise]

reserved for role compendium

 

[dhelmise]

reserved for overflow

 

[dhelmise]

reserved for overflow

you may now post

 

[xJownage]

fuck you rhythms

ok but on another note this seems really cool. Moves with secondary effects become very difficult to use, although for many the risk could be worth it (for example I would still probably use something like ice beam) and moves that come from mons not affected by the effects of their moves retain viability.

Megazard X gets Flare Blitz, which also gives recoil to the foe while not having a chance to burn itself since it's already fire type, for example.

Recoil is also really cool, providing additional damage on the opponent. Things like Talonflame and Staraptor will be REALLY fucking good if they can get a 25-50% boost on their attacks due to opponents taking recoil. Anything with drops, like Close Combat, is really cool as well, so again, Staraptor seems really good. Good meta idea.

 

[Anna says hi]

Do Sheer Force and/or Shield Dust affect the chance of a move hurting the user/foe?
E.G. If Sheer Force Conkeldurr uses Power-up Punch, will the foe get the attack boost? If it then uses Poison Jab, does it have a chance to get poisoned?
If Power-up Punch is used by or against a Shield Dust user, does the Shield Dust user get the Attack boost? If a Shield Dust user uses Poison Jab, can it get poisoned?
Does Explosion cause the foe to faint? (pls no) Do Hyper Beam and friends force a recharge on the foe if it doesn't faint?(also pls no)

Aside from that, moves with 10% stat-lowering or raising chances like Play Rough aren't as bad as you make it seem. The real problem is with moves that can inflict non-volatile status on users that aren't immune to them - like Ice Punch on nearly anything, ESPECIALLY Mega Lopunny.

Manaphy doesn't mind getting burned - it just heals it off immediately after thanks to Hydration(more offensive variants usually run Surf instead).

 

[Emerald Master]

Do Sheer Force and/or Shield Dust affect the chance of a move hurting the user/foe?
E.G. If Sheer Force Conkeldurr uses Power-up Punch, will the foe get the attack boost? If it then uses Poison Jab, does it have a chance to get poisoned?
If Power-up Punch is used by or against a Shield Dust user, does the Shield Dust user get the Attack boost? If a Shield Dust user uses Poison Jab, can it get poisoned?
Does Explosion cause the foe to faint? (pls no) Do Hyper Beam and friends force a recharge on the foe if it doesn't faint?(also pls no)

Aside from that, moves with 10% stat-lowering or raising chances like Play Rough aren't as bad as you make it seem. The real problem is with moves that can inflict non-volatile status on users that aren't immune to them - like Ice Punch on nearly anything, ESPECIALLY Mega Lopunny.

Manaphy doesn't mind getting burned - it just heals it off immediately after thanks to Hydration(more offensive variants usually run Surf instead).

From what the OP said about contrary, I'm guessing that abilities can protect you from side effects of your moves. It sounds like whenever a move with secondary effects is used, the recipient then uses an alternate version of the move that only has secondary effects, and that alternate version has the same activation rate as the original. So a shield dust user cannot get poisoned from its own poison jab, but can receive an attack boost if hit by power-up punch, and sheer force has the opposite effect. Also, congrats on your 500th post!

 

[dhelmise]

Do Sheer Force and/or Shield Dust affect the chance of a move hurting the user/foe?
E.G. If Sheer Force Conkeldurr uses Power-up Punch, will the foe get the attack boost? If it then uses Poison Jab, does it have a chance to get poisoned?
If Power-up Punch is used by or against a Shield Dust user, does the Shield Dust user get the Attack boost? If a Shield Dust user uses Poison Jab, can it get poisoned?
Does Explosion cause the foe to faint? (pls no) Do Hyper Beam and friends force a recharge on the foe if it doesn't faint?(also pls no)

Aside from that, moves with 10% stat-lowering or raising chances like Play Rough aren't as bad as you make it seem. The real problem is with moves that can inflict non-volatile status on users that aren't immune to them - like Ice Punch on nearly anything, ESPECIALLY Mega Lopunny.

Manaphy doesn't mind getting burned - it just heals it off immediately after thanks to Hydration(more offensive variants usually run Surf instead).

From what the OP said about contrary, I'm guessing that abilities can protect you from side effects of your moves. It sounds like whenever a move with secondary effects is used, the recipient then uses an alternate version of the move that only has secondary effects, and that alternate version has the same activation rate as the original. So a shield dust user cannot get poisoned from its own poison jab, but can receive an attack boost if hit by power-up punch, and sheer force has the opposite effect. Also, congrats on your 500th post!

Sheer force removes the secondary effects so there isn't a secondary effect for the user or for to be affected by.

 

[Emerald Master]

Sheer force removes the secondary effects so there isn't a secondary effect for the user or for to be affected by.

Ah, I hadn't thought that removing your own secondary effect also removes the backfire. Also an interesting note: superpower now lowers the attack and defense of your opponent, so the accumulative stat drops mostly cancel each other out (not perfectly, as the multipliers effect higher stats more than lower stats), making superpower a 120 BP move with almost no drawbacks

 

[CorruptedOmega]

If I'm interpreting the OP correctly Talonflame is going to get quite a buff, since Brave Bird and Flare Blitz damage the opponent with their recoil as well. The same goes for Mega Charizard X (Flare Blitz), Mega Pinsir (Double-Edge), Mega Altaria (Double-Edge), and Staraptor (Double-Edge). Another nifty thing is that Submission and Take Down actually have niches now, although both have poor distribution.

 

[Asumi]

Stuff for the Q&A!

• What about Dragon Tail / Circle Throw? Do they force you out as well? :3
• Does using Fling make the opponent throw their item to you?
• Hyper Beam and clones. Since they make the user recharge, will the opponent need to 'recharge' as well?
• Does Clamp (Bind, etc) trap both of you?
• Covet / Thief only does damage because your opponent steals the item back?
• Will draining moves heal the opponent?
• If HJK misses, will the opponent take 50% HP damage?
• Does Super Fang take away 50% from yourself?
• Will Rapid Spin remove hazards from the opponent's side?
• Does U-turn / Volt Switch make the foe switch as well?

This was one of the OMs I was planning to make but too lazy to actually follow through. :P

 

[bp scrub]

Stuff for the Q&A!

• What about Dragon Tail / Circle Throw? Do they force you out as well? :3 Probably yes
• Does using Fling make the opponent throw their item to you?
• Hyper Beam and clones. Since they make the user recharge, will the opponent need to 'recharge' as well? The opponent will not need to recharge and Explosion/Selfdestruct do not automatically kill the opponent.
• Does Clamp (Bind, etc) trap both of you? Yes
• Covet / Thief only does damage because your opponent steals the item back? Yes (i think)
• Will draining moves heal the opponent? Yes
• If HJK misses, will the opponent take 50% HP damage? Yes
• Does Super Fang take away 50% from yourself? No, since that's just Super Fang doing damage
• Will Rapid Spin remove hazards from the opponent's side? Yes
• Does U-turn / Volt Switch make the foe switch as well?

This was one of the OMs I was planning to make but too lazy to actually follow through. :P

I'm not sure about Fling since the item is part of Fling's damage, and U-Turn/Volt Switch should cause the opponent to switch but probably won't because obviously thats broken if you go first.

 

[Asumi]

I'm not sure about Fling since the item is part of Fling's damage, and U-Turn/Volt Switch should cause the opponent to switch but probably won't because obviously thats broken if you go first.

Yep, I already know the logical answer to most of these. Mostly because the opposite answer will break balance.
Just putting them up in case someone else asks (because they're in the meta's premise). :P

 

[EV]

I was really hyped when Rhythms introduced this idea to Submissions and I'm happy to see it finally posted!

There is so much strategy to explore in this metagame now that you have to think about how your attacks can help or hurt you. HP Draining really takes a nose dive; who wants to Giga Drain the opponent only to heal them back half the HP loss? Anyway, what I really like are the self-inflicted byproducts you can come up with in Backfire. Here's one I just thought up involving Defiant:

Bisharp @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Low Sweep
- Sucker Punch

With Low Sweep you get a guaranteed Speed drop on the foe and yourself, resulting in a net change of 0 (until something switches out). The real kicker (pun intended) is Defiant, which boosts your Attack x2 due to the Speed drop. And if the opponent does switch, Sucker Punch is ready to take on the faster opponent that replaces it. Cool, huh? (Note this also works for Primeape which actually gets STAB on Low Sweep but it has a much lower Attack and no strong priority to abuse.)

Braviary @ Leftovers
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Defog
- Brave Bird

Ever wondered how you can simultaneously clear hazards and double your Attack? Look no further than Braviary.

Tornadus @ White Herb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Icy Wind
- Acrobatics


Tornadus appreciates this metagame because it's tired of playing second fiddle to its more electrifying cousin Thundurus. On this set when you use Icy Wind you lower your Speed by 1 and raise Attack by 2. That's not all. White Herb erases the Speed drop, ensuring you'll still be relatively fast versus other foes on the opponent's team, while also powering up Acrobatics to its full 110 base power.

 

[Asumi]

Stall is going to have a really hard time with Close Combat and Superpower lowering defenses of walls.

Also, things like Metagross and Lando-T can now abuse Hammer Arm without fearing the speed drop.


How does Magic Guard vs backfire recoil work here? If Talonflame uses Brave Bird on Clefable, will Magic Guard block the 'backfired' recoil?

 

[sin(pi)]

So this is "Fuck Scald and Knock Off: The Meta™"

image.jpg

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Couple of questions:
-for recoil, how much damage is dealt? If I take 100HP in recoil from Talonflame's BB, does my opponent also take 100HP, or would it be a percentage, or something else entirely?
-the OP seems to imply that moves with a secondary effect will ALWAYS trigger, eg:

Moonblast lowers the foe's Special Attack

which imo would be better written as "Moonblast may lower the foe's Special Attack", etc. This is cleared up in the FAQ but if I've learnt anything, it's that people are shockingly bad when it comes to reading.
-How does Serene Grave interact with this? Would SG Seed Flare have an 80% chance to lower my SpDef, or a 40% chance (assuming my opponent does not have SG)

From the looks of it, Birdspam will be huge, so rocks will be important (though Braviary is the new Defogger of choice, s/o EV G). Emboar, Huntail, Floatzel, Mantine, Lumineon, Wailord, and Seaking are the only risk-free Scalders, and they're not exactly... good at doing that. As for Koff, Megas are probably your best bet - there's Gallade ?has CC too!), Venusaur (can't be poisoned by its own Sludge Bomb), Scizor, Pinsir, Heracross, Absol, Banette, Audino and Zam. Otherwise, try Drifblim, Accelgor, Liepard, or Hitmonlee for Unburden shenanigans: Blimp gets Unburden+Acrobatics, while Hitmonlee has CC/Superpower/HJK, and Ghosts aren't a reliable switchin to HJK if they take 50% alongside it!

 

[Asumi]

Fighting-Type: The Metagame

I assume that something with Serene Grace on the receiving end of a move would double the chances of the extra effect because as the OP said — they have separate RNGs.

That would mean using Thunder on Togekiss would get you paralyzed 60% of the time.

This would create another niche for Serene Grace Chansey and Blissey, as most special moves that they intend to switch into have special effects.

Q: How do status moves work?
A: Status moves like Toxic and Swords Dance only affect the foe (Toxic) and user (Swords Dance) respectively.

I think this means your own Defog won't trigger Defiant because it's a status move.

 

[xJownage]

Braviary looks to be really good; Brave Bird works similarly to parental bond as previously mentioned and superpower boosts its attack by +1 and lowers defense by 1, all while lowering both the opponents attack and defense.

Flying types, Psychic types, etc. will all see increased viability here. Setup is still relevant since status moves aren't backfired.

 

[Ghoul King]

There's a question of whether stuff like Close Combat is considered to not be self-inflicted drops when hitting the opponent. If Close Combat dropping both sides is treated as self-inflicted drops regardless, then stuff like Braviary getting Defiant boosts off enemy Close Combats/Superpowers isn't actually a thing at all. Same for Bisharp's Low Sweep.

Definitely an interesting meta, though. Note that Volcanion is suddenly one of the best Scalders around. Wailord and Huntail are a couple of the next-most-notable for potentially being buffed -Huntail running Shell Smash doesn't care about Swift Swim at all, and while Wailord can run Pressure and Oblivious to some use, they're not really that big a deal, so running Water Veil to make it a safe Scalder is probably one of its better options anyway.

Absol-Mega, Alakazam-Mega, Audino-Mega, Banette-Mega, Beedrill-Mega, Blaziken-Mega, Gallade-Mega, Gengar-Mega, Heracross-Mega, Mawile-Mega, Pinsir-Mega, Sableye-Mega, Scizor-Mega, Venusaur-Mega

These are all the Mega Evolutions that get Knock Off. Mega Gengar and Mega Mawile are Uber and I doubt anyone is going to start running Knock Off on Mega Alakazam, but but others are fairly noteworthy. Mega Sableye, Mega Absol, and Mega Beedrill, in particular, usually run Knock Off regardless, so this makes them a lot more desirable as Knock Offers.

Some other noteworthy points:

-Poison Heal can potentially carry a useful item by intending to trigger via something like Poison Jab on Gliscor. Gimmicky and less reliable than just holding a Toxic Orb, but worth commentary.

-Partial trapping. If it hits both sides, then it's even worse than usual.

-Depending on mechanics, Thief/Covet might function as a damaging Bestow on enemies whom are not holding an item while you are.

-No Guard Dynamic Punch is terrible and you shouldn't use it.

-Depending on mechanics, Smelling Salts might be useful to clear Paralysis from yourself.

-Recoil moves are now a way to kill Sashed/Sturdy Pokemon in one turn, reliably.

-V-Create is a stall-ruiner. Combine with U-Turn and a Pursuit trapper, and you're set to kill some things that really ought to be checks.

-Draco Meteor and friends can potentially be a useful tool for restricting the effectiveness of Special attacker switch-ins. Sure, fine, switch a Special attacker into Garchomp. Oh wait! It just halved your damage!

-Chatter has moved from broken to just plain uncompetitive.

-Clear Smog is actually an answer to stuff like Close Combat spam, since it clears your own stats now, too. Haze, but damaging enemies!

-Incinerate is more appealing, since if you're not holding a Berry it won't destroy your item, unlike Knock Off being overly generous. Unlikely to matter, but it's a small point in its favor.

Not sure if this is going to be a dramatically different meta or kind of overly OU-ish, but I like the concept at least.

 

[Josehaber]

Metagross @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Psychic
- Earthquake
- Bullet Punch

Metagross doesnt take the speed lower from hammer arm

 

[dhelmise]

Metagross @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hammer Arm
- Psychic
- Earthquake
- Bullet Punch

Metagross doesnt take the speed lower from hammer arm

That's not how clear body works. Self-inflicted stat drops on clear body still affect the user.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Braviary looks to be really good; Brave Bird works similarly to parental bond as previously mentioned and superpower boosts its attack by +1 and lowers defense by 1, all while lowering both the opponents attack and defense.

Flying types, Psychic types, etc. will all see increased viability here. Setup is still relevant since status moves aren't backfired.

Similar to the previous post I just need to point out that's not how it works--Defiant doesn't activate on self inflicted drops from moves like Superpower unfortunately.