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Ubers Arceus-Normal (QC 3/3 GP 1/2)
- Thread starter shrang
- Start date
I'll change the EV spread, but there's no way I'm removing Magic Coat. It beats so many of Ekiller's potential checks it's not funny, as well as allowing it serve as a strong anti-lead. The only thing you're missing now is against Giratina-O, but 1) it's less common these days, and 2) it's a pretty good trade if you can't beat one counter but can beat like 10 others.
Yeah and Toxic is good on everything so that's really saying something.
Btw, do you have a facade mention somewhere?
No, magic coat is absolute bull shit.
What you are assuming is an inexplainable metagame trend of having status being the #1 check to ekiller. This might be the case on the low level of ladder or something, but what is really going in people having a bulky mons that can retaliate with big hits (def Yveltal, Scizor, def Ho-oh) combined with faster priority or ghost types (Gengar, faster Ekiller, Deoxys-A etc.). Magic Coat accomplishes nothing vs Ekillers most seen checks, it doesn't help vs dragon tail giratina, which is the typical will o wisp check user that you could use mcoat vs, you are absolute hard walled by Arc-Rock and Aegishit beats you with a 50-50, which is a shame when you could just sweep past it. Some other shit that just happens to be able to check you better or sometimes hard wall you just because you dedicated a moveslot for nothing are: TTar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Dialga, Lucario, Terrakion. It is true that you beat Lugia but with SR up, it will have a tougher time shrugging off boosted sclaws, and Lugia isn't particularly common.
You guys got to be joking if you are slashing this thing, it goes max to oo. This is hilarious, there aren't any relevant scenarios where you use Magic Coat and it is better than Lum Berry+3atks (and SR support if you account for Lugia).
What you are assuming is an inexplainable metagame trend of having status being the #1 check to ekiller. This might be the case on the low level of ladder or something, but what is really going in people having a bulky mons that can retaliate with big hits (def Yveltal, Scizor, def Ho-oh) combined with faster priority or ghost types (Gengar, faster Ekiller, Deoxys-A etc.). Magic Coat accomplishes nothing vs Ekillers most seen checks, it doesn't help vs dragon tail giratina, which is the typical will o wisp check user that you could use mcoat vs, you are absolute hard walled by Arc-Rock and Aegishit beats you with a 50-50, which is a shame when you could just sweep past it. Some other shit that just happens to be able to check you better or sometimes hard wall you just because you dedicated a moveslot for nothing are: TTar, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Dialga, Lucario, Terrakion. It is true that you beat Lugia but with SR up, it will have a tougher time shrugging off boosted sclaws, and Lugia isn't particularly common.
You guys got to be joking if you are slashing this thing, it goes max to oo. This is hilarious, there aren't any relevant scenarios where you use Magic Coat and it is better than Lum Berry+3atks (and SR support if you account for Lugia).
It's not just status, there's also phazing as well. Also, status is not the only check used to handle ekiller but it's still a very common threat to it due to the prevalence of wisp arceus. I'm not so adamant about it to oppose it jsut being a moves mention but I don't think you give it enough credit either. (notably when guys like tina-o aren't as common so the coverage lost not as necessary)
you can use a lum berry (you should) to alleviate the threat of support Arceus. Phazers are? you don't bring any relevant examples, lugia is the only whirlwind user. Yeah cool Groudon has roar, it might just as well have D tail/stronger EQ than you expected if you are unlucky, and now you did nothing to it- ergo it's safer just attacking. Dragon Tail is wow users as Giratina or Giratina-o, both can be circumvented safer with Lum Berry as well. You still need Sclaw otherwise non mega Gengar walls you to hell so the coverage is still mandatory. EQ is as I said one of your means to actually push through some shit like superpower scizor. An mcoat slash is an abomination to mankind.
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I love how you're downplaying Magic Coat and hyping the fuck out of Lum Berry. Lum Ekiller is a weak as fuck piece of shit that can't even OHKO Mewtwo after Stealth Rock at +2. With Magic Coat, you can actually afford to run LO or Silk Scarf without having to worry about status and Whirlwind. Also, Giratina most often runs Roar, not Dragon Tail. Also, how the hell does Aegislash beat you when you OHKO it with Earthquake? Rock Arceus doesn't beat you either, you can bounce back Will-O-Wisp in its face and at the worst mindgame with it by continually spamming Magic Coat until it dies to burn damage or Earthquake it if it decides to attack. Mega Gengar loses to Earthquake as soon as it transforms as well, and the best thing it can do is Destiny Bond you or Focus Blast you, things that would have happened against Shadow Claw anyway. Magic Coat has been tested and certified by plenty of good Ubers players, and I'm not removing it. You can either put up or shut up.
Again you don't seem to bring any relevant examples of WW/roar users. Admittedly you beat Lugia, but Groudon and Giratina are still problematic (Giratina-O hard walls you without Sclaw so you can't give that up really). Even if Giratina has Roar, it can just as well have D tail and you have just wasted an opportunity to do damage. Same goes for Groudon, which you can't safely use Magic Coat against should it had Dtail/strong Eq. Arceus-Rock and Aegislash doesn't beat you if you run EQ yes, but you can't afford giving up Shadow Claw as that leaves you walled by Giratina formes, Bronzong, Ghostceus (if it's running Focus Blast). If you continually spam Mcoat vs Arceus-Rock it might just as well 3hko you, and if you don't spam it you are burned. Lum Berry beats Arceus-Rock all the time while being a safer option vs WoW users in general. If you wanna play without Lum, then just Jolly max speed and you have a decent 50-50 at beating Arceus-Rock. It's true that you can beat any support Arceus with Magic Coat, but that requires unnecessary prediction. What I meant with Aegislash was concerning EQ-less Ekiller, I didn't think anyone would want to be 100 % walled by Giratina-O/unable to do much damage to Giratina-A/hit Lugia less hard (I'm assuming people aren't using silk scarf, it's not specialized enough to warrant use imo).
As I said, status isn't the way people check ekiller, and in with that in mind Magic Coat is absolutely useless as you just waste a move slot. You need EQ to hit Scizor/Arceus-Rock/Dialga and Shadow Claw for Giratina/Giratina-O/Bronzong/non megad Gengar. Limiting yourself to being walled by a couple of more mons just to use a move that will be useless against common ways of checking Ekiller.
Conclusion: It's a fun option for screwing with Lugia. As you can't magic coat safely against roar users (giratina and groudon can do different things as explained), the usage against phazers is limited to pretty much Lugia. As for status, it's worse than Lum Berry+3 atks in most other scenarios as Lum allows you to avoid status reliably in comparison and 3 atks let's you get damage on most checks, which gives optimized sweeping potential. Life Orb still has a good chance of getting past support Arceus as the damage output is higher.
As I said, status isn't the way people check ekiller, and in with that in mind Magic Coat is absolutely useless as you just waste a move slot. You need EQ to hit Scizor/Arceus-Rock/Dialga and Shadow Claw for Giratina/Giratina-O/Bronzong/non megad Gengar. Limiting yourself to being walled by a couple of more mons just to use a move that will be useless against common ways of checking Ekiller.
Conclusion: It's a fun option for screwing with Lugia. As you can't magic coat safely against roar users (giratina and groudon can do different things as explained), the usage against phazers is limited to pretty much Lugia. As for status, it's worse than Lum Berry+3 atks in most other scenarios as Lum allows you to avoid status reliably in comparison and 3 atks let's you get damage on most checks, which gives optimized sweeping potential. Life Orb still has a good chance of getting past support Arceus as the damage output is higher.
Okay, let's break this down.
Just for the record, I use Magic Coat with Earthquake, so everything I'm going to say next assumes that
Groudon: Dragon Tail is rare in general now. You may be able to catch it on Roar, but it's much better to attack Groudon and get phazed anyway if they have Dragon Tail anyway. If it did have D-tail, it won't do that much. Incidentally, Lum Berry has the worst chance of beating Groudon, when Extreme Speed is only netting you a 3HKO at +2. Really, the best options for Lum and Magic Coat Ekiller against Groudon is like same, and Lum hits Groudon for way less. Silk Scarf has a chance of 2HKOing after Stealth Rock and Life Orb a better chance still, two items that really appreciate Magic Coat's ability to keep you away from Toxic without having to decrease your reliance on Lum. What status can Groudon do to Ekiller that it really hates anyway? Toxic still means Groudon's dead and Arceus has a few turns of a killing spree and Thunder Wave is the one which Arceus least dislikes. On the other hand, Lum Berry means Groudon can phaze you at least twice.
Giratina-A: Yes, I guess it could have Dragon Tail, but if you catch it with Magic Coat with WoW, it is seriously doing practically nothing to you the next turn (and who does expect Magic Coat anyway). Funnily enough, even with Lum, Giratina will get the burn on you because it's not like Shadow Claw 2HKOes even at +2. I'll give you Shadow Force, but SF EKiller is really easy to play around and is arguably harder to use than Magic Coat.
Giratina-O: Again, I concede this one, but 1) it's not that common these days and 2) you might even be able bounce WoW in its face and laugh at it anyway. On the other hand, if I were using Giratina-O, I'd probably Dragon Tail Ekiller out first anyway, and Shadow Claw can't OHKO it, certainly with Lum.
Rockceus: Yes, Lum is overall more reliable against Rockceus, but it's not like you always have to be in the mindset "Ekiller must sweep or else". Arceus is not Xerneas that's got one chance to sweep and that's it. You can bounce back WoW and then switch out to something else easily. I know you can tell me "well Rockceus has forced Ekiller out and it's won", and I would say "...so what?" Why can't you recognise that there are times that Arceus will have to switch out? You can beat Rockceus with Lum, sure, but by running Lum Berry you'd arguably to a list of other Pokemon that are arguably a lot more dangerous than Rock Arceus, which I'll list later.
Bronzong: I'll concede this one, but like Giratina-O, it's not that common.
Ghostceus: Actually, if Ghostceus had Focus Blast, it beats you anyway if you're not running max Speed (which is the kind of spread that Lum and Magic Coat is better for) if Focus Blast hits twice, regardless of whether you had Shadow Claw or Magic Coat. It outspeeds you and 2HKOes you. On the other hand, both Lum Berry and Magic Coat beat Will-O-Wisp versions, so it's not really something that's important.
Gengar: You beat Mega Gengar with Earthquake anyway. I know it can choose to not transform and attack you in its normal form, but that would mean your opponent knows you're carrying Magic Coat. Seriously, how many people do you think would be able to tell? I guess in tournament games if you've stalked someone you could guess that, but then you can just switch it up with Shadow Claw / Force if you think they'll predict Magic Coat. It IS slashed last, so Shadow Claw and Force are still going to be the vast majority of Ekillers, so what makes you think that people would deliberately take the small chance that Magic Coat is there to lose against the majority of users who use Shadow Claw? Also, if just the mere presence of Magic Coat on the set makes people not transform their Gengars to take down a potential Magic Coat Ekiller (remember untransformed Gengar cannot outspeed a Jolly Ekiller, which is very much on the cards), then that alone warrants a slot to throw your opponents into that hesitation.
Okay, you wanted to know what phazers that Magic Coat Arceus beats:
Lugia you've mentioned already
Skarmory is one Pokemon that normally completely walls Ekiller that gets completely wrecked by Magic Coat. Yes, he can keep spamming Toxic, but Magic Coat has more PP than Toxic. So, you either end up Whirlwinding him out or you bounce back some Spikes. Either way, you get the winning end of the deal. On the other hand, unless you're using Overheat, you're losing to Skarmory with 3 attacks, and if you ARE using Overheat, you're losing important coverage for other stuff.
Giratina-A I've gone through already
Support Arceus that use Roar - With Lum Berry Arceus being relatively common, people can Roar out Ekiller if they really can't afford to risk Ekiller being Lum and potentially losing. Magic Coat would not only bounce out WoW, but any Arceus potentially using Roar, the most common first responses to Ekiller (because seriously, who is going to start off attacking Ekiller with Judgement, unless you're low on health anyway?)
Groudon with Roar - Yes, I am aware that Groudon can just EQ you, but again, like support Arceus, if the guy is using support Groudon, who's going to EQ your Ekiller when it's that much safer to Roar you out instead? If you catch it with Magic Coat and for some reason that Groudon comes in later, it has to make the choice whether it wants to get reverse phazed again, or use Earthquake against you and then lose because you 2HKO it with Extreme Speed? Against 3 attacks, it's a pretty easy choice for the Groudon, they just click Roar.
There are also a couple of other small niches for Magic Coat as well. You serve as a really good anti-lead with it. This is like the one time where I like leading with Ekiller, because you can bounce back Taunt/SR/Spikes/Sticky Web/Spore from all those anti-leads like Deo-S and Smeargle and automatically seize the momentum. I've had so many Deo-S's get Taunt thrown back in its face and they have to back pedal immediately.
Anyway, the point of Magic Coat is so Arceus is less vulnerable to status when it's using LO or Silk Scarf. I know you love Lum, but there are crucial KOes you miss with Lum Berry against very crucial threats. Mega Mewtwo X is the biggest one. With Lum, you fail to OHKO it, and in return you get OHKOed by Low Kick. With Silk Scarf, enabled because you now have Magic Coat to deflect status, you score a clear OHKO against it after SR if it transformed that very turn (so it took 12.5% as regular Mewtwo and transformed in that turn). You score an easy OHKO on offensive Yveltal after SR with Silk Scarf, while with Lum, this is not guaranteed (which means you could potentially take a massive hit from Focus Blast or Dark Pulse, something you might not be able to afford after getting hurt when setting up. You have a >50% chance to OHKO Scarf Zekrom with Silk Scarf boosted ES after SR while you're not doing that with Lum. Seriously, you're not even guaranteed an OHKO on Palkia without SR while Silk Scarf will do it every time. This sort of thing gets pretty common, which is the reason I never liked using Lum Ekiller, even when I was really keen on using when I was theorymonning Ekiller a long time ago. The lack of power from Lum is something I really don't like, and Magic Coat gives you a form of protection not only against status while keeping the power of Silk Scarf/LO, but also phazing.
Just for the record, I use Magic Coat with Earthquake, so everything I'm going to say next assumes that
Groudon: Dragon Tail is rare in general now. You may be able to catch it on Roar, but it's much better to attack Groudon and get phazed anyway if they have Dragon Tail anyway. If it did have D-tail, it won't do that much. Incidentally, Lum Berry has the worst chance of beating Groudon, when Extreme Speed is only netting you a 3HKO at +2. Really, the best options for Lum and Magic Coat Ekiller against Groudon is like same, and Lum hits Groudon for way less. Silk Scarf has a chance of 2HKOing after Stealth Rock and Life Orb a better chance still, two items that really appreciate Magic Coat's ability to keep you away from Toxic without having to decrease your reliance on Lum. What status can Groudon do to Ekiller that it really hates anyway? Toxic still means Groudon's dead and Arceus has a few turns of a killing spree and Thunder Wave is the one which Arceus least dislikes. On the other hand, Lum Berry means Groudon can phaze you at least twice.
Giratina-A: Yes, I guess it could have Dragon Tail, but if you catch it with Magic Coat with WoW, it is seriously doing practically nothing to you the next turn (and who does expect Magic Coat anyway). Funnily enough, even with Lum, Giratina will get the burn on you because it's not like Shadow Claw 2HKOes even at +2. I'll give you Shadow Force, but SF EKiller is really easy to play around and is arguably harder to use than Magic Coat.
Giratina-O: Again, I concede this one, but 1) it's not that common these days and 2) you might even be able bounce WoW in its face and laugh at it anyway. On the other hand, if I were using Giratina-O, I'd probably Dragon Tail Ekiller out first anyway, and Shadow Claw can't OHKO it, certainly with Lum.
Rockceus: Yes, Lum is overall more reliable against Rockceus, but it's not like you always have to be in the mindset "Ekiller must sweep or else". Arceus is not Xerneas that's got one chance to sweep and that's it. You can bounce back WoW and then switch out to something else easily. I know you can tell me "well Rockceus has forced Ekiller out and it's won", and I would say "...so what?" Why can't you recognise that there are times that Arceus will have to switch out? You can beat Rockceus with Lum, sure, but by running Lum Berry you'd arguably to a list of other Pokemon that are arguably a lot more dangerous than Rock Arceus, which I'll list later.
Bronzong: I'll concede this one, but like Giratina-O, it's not that common.
Ghostceus: Actually, if Ghostceus had Focus Blast, it beats you anyway if you're not running max Speed (which is the kind of spread that Lum and Magic Coat is better for) if Focus Blast hits twice, regardless of whether you had Shadow Claw or Magic Coat. It outspeeds you and 2HKOes you. On the other hand, both Lum Berry and Magic Coat beat Will-O-Wisp versions, so it's not really something that's important.
Gengar: You beat Mega Gengar with Earthquake anyway. I know it can choose to not transform and attack you in its normal form, but that would mean your opponent knows you're carrying Magic Coat. Seriously, how many people do you think would be able to tell? I guess in tournament games if you've stalked someone you could guess that, but then you can just switch it up with Shadow Claw / Force if you think they'll predict Magic Coat. It IS slashed last, so Shadow Claw and Force are still going to be the vast majority of Ekillers, so what makes you think that people would deliberately take the small chance that Magic Coat is there to lose against the majority of users who use Shadow Claw? Also, if just the mere presence of Magic Coat on the set makes people not transform their Gengars to take down a potential Magic Coat Ekiller (remember untransformed Gengar cannot outspeed a Jolly Ekiller, which is very much on the cards), then that alone warrants a slot to throw your opponents into that hesitation.
Okay, you wanted to know what phazers that Magic Coat Arceus beats:
Lugia you've mentioned already
Skarmory is one Pokemon that normally completely walls Ekiller that gets completely wrecked by Magic Coat. Yes, he can keep spamming Toxic, but Magic Coat has more PP than Toxic. So, you either end up Whirlwinding him out or you bounce back some Spikes. Either way, you get the winning end of the deal. On the other hand, unless you're using Overheat, you're losing to Skarmory with 3 attacks, and if you ARE using Overheat, you're losing important coverage for other stuff.
Giratina-A I've gone through already
Support Arceus that use Roar - With Lum Berry Arceus being relatively common, people can Roar out Ekiller if they really can't afford to risk Ekiller being Lum and potentially losing. Magic Coat would not only bounce out WoW, but any Arceus potentially using Roar, the most common first responses to Ekiller (because seriously, who is going to start off attacking Ekiller with Judgement, unless you're low on health anyway?)
Groudon with Roar - Yes, I am aware that Groudon can just EQ you, but again, like support Arceus, if the guy is using support Groudon, who's going to EQ your Ekiller when it's that much safer to Roar you out instead? If you catch it with Magic Coat and for some reason that Groudon comes in later, it has to make the choice whether it wants to get reverse phazed again, or use Earthquake against you and then lose because you 2HKO it with Extreme Speed? Against 3 attacks, it's a pretty easy choice for the Groudon, they just click Roar.
There are also a couple of other small niches for Magic Coat as well. You serve as a really good anti-lead with it. This is like the one time where I like leading with Ekiller, because you can bounce back Taunt/SR/Spikes/Sticky Web/Spore from all those anti-leads like Deo-S and Smeargle and automatically seize the momentum. I've had so many Deo-S's get Taunt thrown back in its face and they have to back pedal immediately.
Anyway, the point of Magic Coat is so Arceus is less vulnerable to status when it's using LO or Silk Scarf. I know you love Lum, but there are crucial KOes you miss with Lum Berry against very crucial threats. Mega Mewtwo X is the biggest one. With Lum, you fail to OHKO it, and in return you get OHKOed by Low Kick. With Silk Scarf, enabled because you now have Magic Coat to deflect status, you score a clear OHKO against it after SR if it transformed that very turn (so it took 12.5% as regular Mewtwo and transformed in that turn). You score an easy OHKO on offensive Yveltal after SR with Silk Scarf, while with Lum, this is not guaranteed (which means you could potentially take a massive hit from Focus Blast or Dark Pulse, something you might not be able to afford after getting hurt when setting up. You have a >50% chance to OHKO Scarf Zekrom with Silk Scarf boosted ES after SR while you're not doing that with Lum. Seriously, you're not even guaranteed an OHKO on Palkia without SR while Silk Scarf will do it every time. This sort of thing gets pretty common, which is the reason I never liked using Lum Ekiller, even when I was really keen on using when I was theorymonning Ekiller a long time ago. The lack of power from Lum is something I really don't like, and Magic Coat gives you a form of protection not only against status while keeping the power of Silk Scarf/LO, but also phazing.
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I can see the merits of Magic Coat, but I don't see how it deserves a slash anywhere. I've definitely seen more Giratina-O than Skarmory or Roar Arceus. I've even seen more Bronzong than Skarmory. It's useless against things that attack or use Dragon Tail, and forcing consecutive 50-50s with Will-o-Wisp Arceus is not a huge win. The anti-leading utility against Deoxys-S is cool, but not amazing (you reveal Magic Coat turn 1 so it won't surprise any checks and if you stay in after that there's a high chance of getting Knocked Off and damaging your sweeping capability). I don't see Magic Coat consistently getting past much any checks, and it doesn't have much utility outside of that (except for maybe entertainment value), so I don't see how it deserves a place among pretty crucial coverage moves and Overheat (which is niche, but consistently destroys some checks, notably Mega Scizor which is far more common than some of the checks discussed here).
Finally some healthy debate. I will also assume Earthquake from now and respond to the individual threats you analyzed:
Groudon
While I do agree that Dragon Tail is rarer these days, there is little reward in Magic Coating against it. If you are met with bulky Earth Plate (which carries Dtail) you are either going to take 50 % from Earthquake or get phazed. Bottom line is- how can you be sure your opponent has roar/isn't packing a bigger punch than you expect it to? Attacking is much safer, and I am not saying Lum Berry is a good item against Groudon, but you won't be able to risk it having D tail and therefore you can never Mcoat against this thing unless you are 100 % sure.
Giratina-A
Most have D-tail to deal with taunt MMX anyway. 3 atk Ho-oh is more common than sub among good players anyway so the loss isn't that big. What goes for Groudon goes for this mon when it comes to being able to use Magic Coat. Another backside of Magic Coat against this mon is that you will have to give up coverage- and you seem to like giving up the coverage that can actually hit this mon decently.
Giratina-O
Dragon Tail will just own you. By using Mcoat here you give up on the ability to beat this mon. This mon is still more common than Skarmory.
Skarmory, Lugia
Conceding these but what's very important to note is that the phazers you can reliably beat with Mcoat can be removed almost effortlessly with Gengar, which is a much better option for a team than dropping coverage, especially since Gengar is so good.
Roar Arceus
Sadly, these don't exist in reality.
Regarding the whole Lum Berry being the best item thing that people seem to believe I think:
I'm not saying Lum Berry is the absolute best item, it is just more useful in the current metagame. There are many ways an offensive team can get the semi checks in range for a +2 E speed anyway. I like LO as well, but what's important to realise is that you don't need Magic Coat more than you need the coverage when you use LO. You can punch past mons like Giratina-O, support Arceus and even go for the 50-50 speed tie against Arceus-Rock without losing the opportunity to beat more checks overall (or turning checks into hard counters). LO also puts checks in KO range much easier, which makes avoiding status a bit less necessary.
Regarding anti leading:
Was never a fan of leading with E-killer against Deo-S anyway. The reason is very simple:
an (hyper) offensive team has limited answers to CM/SD Arceus.
Deoxys-S belongs on on offense
you reveal your weapon of unpredictability, which is really important, on turn one then
While I won't dismiss the fact that Mcoating against suicide leads can be useful, leading with your Ekiller is usually not imo.
Regarding usage
Skarmory has been used 3 times in SPL. Giratina-O is more common with 5 uses, Bronzong almost as common and Giratina has also been use. According to ladder usage, skarm is much lower than Giratina, and especially, Giratina-O.
Conclusion:
With Magic Coat you reliably beat Lugia and Skarmory, two very Shadow Tag prone mons. You lose to Giratina-O (which can't be trapped), who 100 % walls you. Giratina walls too. You can't reliably beat Groudon. Also, there is really no need to use Magic Coat if you aren't using Lum Berry. You can still use Life Orb with 3 atks and be just fine because of your higher power output that allows you to get past checks with prior damage.
Groudon
While I do agree that Dragon Tail is rarer these days, there is little reward in Magic Coating against it. If you are met with bulky Earth Plate (which carries Dtail) you are either going to take 50 % from Earthquake or get phazed. Bottom line is- how can you be sure your opponent has roar/isn't packing a bigger punch than you expect it to? Attacking is much safer, and I am not saying Lum Berry is a good item against Groudon, but you won't be able to risk it having D tail and therefore you can never Mcoat against this thing unless you are 100 % sure.
Giratina-A
Most have D-tail to deal with taunt MMX anyway. 3 atk Ho-oh is more common than sub among good players anyway so the loss isn't that big. What goes for Groudon goes for this mon when it comes to being able to use Magic Coat. Another backside of Magic Coat against this mon is that you will have to give up coverage- and you seem to like giving up the coverage that can actually hit this mon decently.
Giratina-O
Dragon Tail will just own you. By using Mcoat here you give up on the ability to beat this mon. This mon is still more common than Skarmory.
Skarmory, Lugia
Conceding these but what's very important to note is that the phazers you can reliably beat with Mcoat can be removed almost effortlessly with Gengar, which is a much better option for a team than dropping coverage, especially since Gengar is so good.
Roar Arceus
Sadly, these don't exist in reality.
Regarding the whole Lum Berry being the best item thing that people seem to believe I think:
I'm not saying Lum Berry is the absolute best item, it is just more useful in the current metagame. There are many ways an offensive team can get the semi checks in range for a +2 E speed anyway. I like LO as well, but what's important to realise is that you don't need Magic Coat more than you need the coverage when you use LO. You can punch past mons like Giratina-O, support Arceus and even go for the 50-50 speed tie against Arceus-Rock without losing the opportunity to beat more checks overall (or turning checks into hard counters). LO also puts checks in KO range much easier, which makes avoiding status a bit less necessary.
Regarding anti leading:
Was never a fan of leading with E-killer against Deo-S anyway. The reason is very simple:
an (hyper) offensive team has limited answers to CM/SD Arceus.
Deoxys-S belongs on on offense
you reveal your weapon of unpredictability, which is really important, on turn one then
While I won't dismiss the fact that Mcoating against suicide leads can be useful, leading with your Ekiller is usually not imo.
Regarding usage
Skarmory has been used 3 times in SPL. Giratina-O is more common with 5 uses, Bronzong almost as common and Giratina has also been use. According to ladder usage, skarm is much lower than Giratina, and especially, Giratina-O.
Conclusion:
With Magic Coat you reliably beat Lugia and Skarmory, two very Shadow Tag prone mons. You lose to Giratina-O (which can't be trapped), who 100 % walls you. Giratina walls too. You can't reliably beat Groudon. Also, there is really no need to use Magic Coat if you aren't using Lum Berry. You can still use Life Orb with 3 atks and be just fine because of your higher power output that allows you to get past checks with prior damage.
We talked it over on IRC and agreed that Mcoat and Shadow Force will be moved to moves mentions as they have some valuable uses but nothing significant to warrant a slash. New slashing agreed on was:
Earthquake / Fire Blast (yeah we also found out fire blast is better than overheat)
Shadow Claw / Fire Blast
Earthquake / Fire Blast (yeah we also found out fire blast is better than overheat)
Shadow Claw / Fire Blast
Reviver
Banned deucer.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 447-528 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
At +2 also OHKOs Lugia after SR.
Non-Life Orb +2 Adamant Shadow Force also has a good chance of KOing common Giratinas and Lugias after SR.
Shadow Force needs to be slashed with Shadow Claw.
At +2 also OHKOs Lugia after SR.
Non-Life Orb +2 Adamant Shadow Force also has a good chance of KOing common Giratinas and Lugias after SR.
Shadow Force needs to be slashed with Shadow Claw.
Reviver
Banned deucer.
What if I go for Extreme Speed the turn you Roost? Although, your argument isn't terrible, these kind of things are more prediction reliant and shouldn't be used to support a claim, not to mention Lugia shouldn't be Roosting in front of a healthy +2 Arceus.
Also +2 Shadow Force OHKOs Giratina-O and does more to Steel types than Earthquake, possibly freeing up a move-slot.
Also +2 Shadow Force OHKOs Giratina-O and does more to Steel types than Earthquake, possibly freeing up a move-slot.
Why? Overheat is better vs Skarmory and Ferrothorn as well as doing more then +2 E-speed on Impish Groudon. Also better accuracy. Fire Blast is better vs Aegislash? If youre going to fireblast on the switch to Lando/Groudon etc you might as well double into a special attacker instead.
4- SpA Life Orb Arceus Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 343-406 (102.6 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4- SpA Life Orb Arceus Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 291-343 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
4- SpA Life Orb Arceus Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 333-395 (94.6 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
4- SpA Life Orb Arceus Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 286-338 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS Groudon:
Extreme Speed (+2) 45.2 - 53.4%
Overheat 51.7 - 61.1%
Fire Blast 44 - 52.2%
Skarm is a OHKO either way cause SR and the damage on Donner isn't worth much cause sp atk drops after. I didn't know the Ferrothorn calc, though, and that one is pretty important. Guess it should be overheat then.
If lugiass comes in on a +2 ekiller with SR up then Toxicing won't go far as it'll just die to two espeeds. Roost lets it get Mscale back and is safe in case of force or another SD. (cause you have mscale) Force sholdn't replace EQ because charge up turns suck ass. Only benefit I can remember is on webs teams where you can disappear on ghost arc's defog and nail it with a OHKO afterwards. (thus keeping your hazards up)
If lugiass comes in on a +2 ekiller with SR up then Toxicing won't go far as it'll just die to two espeeds. Roost lets it get Mscale back and is safe in case of force or another SD. (cause you have mscale) Force sholdn't replace EQ because charge up turns suck ass. Only benefit I can remember is on webs teams where you can disappear on ghost arc's defog and nail it with a OHKO afterwards. (thus keeping your hazards up)
Reviver
Banned deucer.
If Lugia (not Lugiass) comes in on +2 Ekiller, the safest play is to use Whirlwind. Roosting is futile as +2 Espeed does way more damage than the health regain through Roost.
Also, in Arceus' overview, the word "conceivably" does not roll off the tongue right. It makes the sentence sounds odd and unnatural.
It's also less prediction based since you don't have to predict between status and attack, you just remove the status if it is used and take advantage of your priority the following turn. Intimidate juggling is pretty much beat by Swords Dancing again. (Lando shouldn't be coming in if it can't kill with EQ)