Ladder Anything Goes

[DoW]

Not sure if this has been discussed before, but has anyone tried running Latias as an Offensive Defogger/Healing Wisher? I was thinking of using this set:

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Defog
- Healing Wish
- Draco Meteor

This would do minimum 76% to offensive PDon, would OHKO the standard Phys Def Giratina after rocks, and would take a maximum of 58% from POgre's Ice Beam. However, I'm not sure how to build around it. It's very weak to Darkrai, so you could partner it with Mega Diancie, Sleep Talk Ho-Oh, or even MMY. It's also weak to Jolly Ghostceus, so a Darkrai might do well. However, i've tried making a team around this, and it has not turned out well. Would anyone like to discuss partners with me, or even build a team together?

It's usable, but for latias to reliably check the primals it needs recover. Because of that, I think dropping either defog or an offensive move would be the better option, though obviously it loses utility either way.

 

[Cryptis]

TBH it doesn't need recover to reliably check PDon, as it resists/is not affected by its Stabs, and doesn't take much from Stone Edge. POgre is a bigger problem, as it can be 2HKOd by it. Instead of running Recover, I'd prefer to run enough HP to turn that 2HKO into a 3HKO, while still 2HKOing. Depending on the type of POgre you want to check, you could take out of speed or special attack. You need 192 HP to turn the Ice Beam into a 3HKO.

 

[Adeleine]

TBH it doesn't need recover to reliably check PDon, as it resists/is not affected by its Stabs, and doesn't take much from Stone Edge. POgre is a bigger problem, as it can be 2HKOd by it. Instead of running Recover, I'd prefer to run enough HP to turn that 2HKO into a 3HKO, while still 2HKOing. Depending on the type of POgre you want to check, you could take out of speed or special attack. You need 192 HP to turn the Ice Beam into a 3HKO.

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias in Harsh Sunshine: 141-167 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
You can adjust the spread to deal with this (and may want to), but also keep in mind that Dragon Claw also does a ton and has about a 30% chance to OHKO, and also has use against Mray (which means it has uses and usage other than to deal with the Latis).

 

[DoW]

I've been running Latias quite a bit recently, and yeah if you want to reliably check pdon you'll need recovery. Stone Edge is actually pretty uncommon, only really hitting yveltal, and while dragon claw can be pretty nasty there aren't that many pdon around in any case. A properly EV'd latias should be able to beat any pdon 1v1, and counter most variants reliably, especially those carrying sr.
I don't think any mon can really claim to defensively counter P-don, but Latias does about as well as defensive Arceus formes such as arc-water and has a number of positives to boot such as a good SpA stat when boosted by Soul Dew.

 

[Cryptis]

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 168-198 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias in Harsh Sunshine: 141-167 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
You can adjust the spread to deal with this (and may want to), but also keep in mind that Dragon Claw also does a ton and has about a 30% chance to OHKO, and also has use against Mray (which means it has uses and usage other than to deal with the Latis).

Ouch I stand corrected. But I think that can be EVd for too.

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 244 HP / 168 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Defog
- Healing Wish
- Draco Meteor

This should be better. It always lives a Dragon Claw from PDon, even after rocks, and can OHKO back after rocks (given that it was in its Primal form when it took rocks damage). The speed outspeeds neutral natured 252 speed base 90s, which aren't common, but could come in handy vs. something like Giratin-Origin or Ho-Oh.

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Dragon Claw vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Latias: 268-316 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
168+ SpA Soul Dew Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 316-373 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[bp scrub]

lol glalie too op
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/anythinggoes-337099548

 

[Chloe]

Some bulky sets I've been using recently:

Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Toxic

Works as a nice check for Primal Groudon, as well as a Wish passer for teammates without reliable recovery for example your own Primal Groudon. Knock Off is beneficial in some scenarios (preventing GeoXern sweep, e.t.c.). It also manages to wall many ExtremeKiller Arceus sets, can usually take two Dragon Ascents and survive and in general act as a nice physical wall for some of the metagame's most common threats. Here are some calcs:

252+ Atk Earth Plate Groudon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 199-235 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 103-123 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 229-270 (42.9 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 186-219 (34.8 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Groudon @ Red Card
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Roar

Great HO lead, but alternatively functions well as a late game switchin to force out EKiller / Rayquaza sets. The majority of this set is fairly self-explanatory. Stealth Rock, phase, phase, paralyse to provide team support for later on in the match. The EVs are maximum bulk with 12 Spe to outspeed Mega Diancie pre-mega evolution even though the chance of Diancie not protecting on mega evolution here is very slim. This set also functions extremely well against PDon leads. Calcs:

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 70-84 (17.3 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Mega Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 157-186 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Thunder Wave
- Stealth Rock
- Healing Wish

Extremely nice Jirachi set that Gunner suggested for the minitour final. This is the set that was used to win. It confidently walls Geomancy Xerneas as well as nicely denting many special attackers. Can switchin on Offensive POgre and survive. It can Thunder Wave GeoXern while only taking 61.2% maximum from a +2 Focus Blast, and ~45% from a +2 Moonblast. Iron Head spam flinching is extremely useful, rock setting when it can survive GeoXern breaking through paralysis. Healing Wish is extremely useful, and usually sees usage within most matches. Calcs:

+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Jirachi: 165-194 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Jirachi: 209-247 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Jirachi in Heavy Rain: 274-324 (67.9 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Jirachi: 54-65 (13.3 - 16.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment vs. 248 HP / 244+ SpD Jirachi: 54-65 (13.3 - 16.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Opinions?

 

[DoW]

I've been running a very similar Groudon set for a while, going with Lum and Dragon Tail over Red Card and Roar. Lum is extremely nice, allowing me to para darkrai t1 very often, and honestly I don't see what Red Card really does for the set when you're just going to phase them anyway the majority of the time. Dragon Tail is nice for rayquaza switchins, but does leave me weaker to Xern and minimise users, so I think this one can go either way.

In any case, they're all neat sets that I think are definitely usable (if not hugely relevant) in the current meta.

 

[Chloe]

I've been running a very similar Groudon set for a while, going with Lum and Dragon Tail over Red Card and Roar. Lum is extremely nice, allowing me to para darkrai t1 very often, and honestly I don't see what Red Card really does for the set when you're just going to phase them anyway the majority of the time. Dragon Tail is nice for rayquaza switchins, but does leave me weaker to Xern and minimise users, so I think this one can go either way.

In any case, they're all neat sets that I think are definitely usable (if not hugely relevant) in the current meta.

Essentially, its main use is to paralyse something that they wouldn't really want to be paralysed. They attack first, get red carded out, and then I Thunder Wave something they don't want paralysed (best case scenario: Offensive Yveltal). It's somewhat niche, I know, however it gets the job done. Other uses Red Card has here is to stop a sweep without sacking a Pokémon to phase, or switching in on a minimal damage Attack (e.g. ExtremeSpeed on Rayquaza, Stone Edge on EKiller). Also, Lum berry really isn't sufficient to check Darkrai and therefore I'd find myself needing an extra dedicated mon most of the time. This set was ran on a HO team with Mixed Scarf Xern in the back, so you may agree that a Lum Berry here, although nice, wasn't too beneficial.

 

[Kutscher]

sorry i don't know where to ask it, but do you guys think that fissure machamp will be a thing? like i am really anxious about it, like with scarf it outsped 100 bases, but you can use some things like baton pass, or klefki lead with t-wave and fairy lock(if your enemy leads with a flying type you can bring something like zekrom or arceus rock). so can you guys tell me your opinion about it? also you can use no guard stone edge to hit flying types.

 

[Whis]

Machamp doesn't learn fissure naturally in game so it can't be run in anything goes. (Anything Goes has no clauses but it can only have pokemon that are natural and obtainable in Main Series Gameplay. Movesets,Abilities and Stats can not be changed.)
EDIT:thanks for the clarification Megazard and Derivatives. Actual thoughts on it though: I dont really think Machamp has the speed to seriously abuse No Guard+OHKO and there are many pokemon outspeed it in the meta. Its also going to be incredibly predictable and not too hard to prepare for with the amount of flying/levitating pokemon in the metagame.

 

[Derivatives]

fissure machamp will be incredibly good here, but assuming we get both a sun and moon mon plus a couple others we're looking at at least 1 new floater aside from mega ray and what others we have here
edit to catch guy above: you can get it in RBY, which can send to bank and communicate with moon and sun Whis

 

[MZ]

Once it's released because of backwards compatibility w/gen 1 (that's what he meant Whis) I still don't see much use in it. Unless I'm mistaken, flying and levitating mons are still immune and there are some seriously top tier ones. Rather than scarf I think the best would be a bulky machamp to come in on defensive arceus n stuff like that and Dpunch switchins like yveltal and megaray, probably with twave klefki as a partner. Still, a total lack of defensive utility is really huge for this mon. Maybe a d rank but sounds p bad still on paper

 

[gvmgvm40]

Eh, I can see it in B or something alongside Smeargle. It's a niche mon, but you can build around it. Scarf forces the opponent to play very cautiously with his flying types/levitators and outspeeds a bunch of common grounded stuff like the primals, defensive Arceus formes, Giratina, Mega Diancie and base 90 cover legends as well as rarer bulkier stuff. It can take a hit and revenge MegaGar (and CM Arceus formes if it's healthy) if it comes down to it:

+1 252 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 318-375 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Machamp: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It'll be a great receiver of Speed and defensive boosts and I can see shenanigans with Klefi, Trick + Iron Ball on random stuff to bait fliers or *shudder* Gravity support. Definitely not D imo.

 

[Adeleine]

I predict it'll be the new Klefki; it'll run amok for a bit until people figure out how to deal with it, and then it'll just be one more thing your team will have to deal with and prepare for. Especially because it will literally have maybe two usable sets and can be seen by team preview. Maybe some otherwise kinda niche stuff like Giratina O (ghost + levitate) will come up in usage/Vr that can switch in on it and Wisp/attack/sub/etc.
I can see ScarfChamp as a hole-opener (like Klef is now) or cleaner, and maybe Sash as a niche answer to certain things that also isn't locked into one move. I honestly could see it going somewhere in B since it can come against a few things and can be super hard to deal with (another similarity to Klef), since a wrong switch means confusion or death and the aforementioned kind of eh otherwise Giratina O is one of the few that can ignore both. Scarfchamp doesn't really deal with gengar-mega gvmgvm40 since Mgar either just doesn't mega evolve or protects and pivots to a flying type/levitator or stays in depending on which movie is used.

 

[Chloe]

To be honest, I'm much more scared of Complete Zygarde within the metagame.
By the sounds of things, it's going to be extremely viable, and unlike Mega Rayquaza it can actually be spammed.

Attention: The following is a lot of what ifs.
Its movepool in reliable trapping and hitting flying types such as Ho-Oh and Skarmory with STAB super effectively isn't something that is to be taken lightly.
Assuming it keeps Aura Break, and gains some SpD or HP it may be able to take Xerneas on in a 1v1 situation. Currently a +2 Moonblast on Max HP/SpD 50% Zygarde isn't a guaranteed OHKO. Imagine how many highly viable mons this will impact.
STAB High Power 1k Arrows/Waves onto PDon where it can't hit back well.
STAB Dragon to hit MRay well, Dragon moves may see increase in usage on MRay.
Lives +2 Moonblast, Roars out or Glares to provide room for set-up or revenge killing.
Ho-Oh weak to 1K arrows, Skarmory weak to 1k Arrows
Gets Glare, Phazing, ExtremeSpeed, Myriad of options for Ground STAB that have their own unique perks.
Defensive typing is okay due to Ice moves being fairly rare, takes less from fairy aura boosted attacks.
It's definitely going to change the metagame drastically, assuming its power makes it to the high ranks of Ubers.

My opinion on Machamp.
It'll be a really gimmicky mon, common on the strands of the low ladder and selected teams high ladder; See Smeargle usage.
It won't be the next Klefki by any means, however it will break a few common cores, see Ho-Oh/PDon/Waterceus.
A flying type is now a necessity on every team, or Machamp is a definite problem.
It will change the meta, that is a definite. However, it is somewhat like Klefki in which Tiksi stated. Not to that extent, however still a reliable check (any flying type ever except like Ho-Oh) is necessary.
DynamicPunch on switch-in will be annoying, however not something that can't be avoided.
To be honest, it does sound scary on paper, albeit in game it won't live up to the hype.

 

[TheHungrySage]

To be honest, I'm much more scared of Complete Zygarde within the metagame.
By the sounds of things, it's going to be extremely viable, and unlike Mega Rayquaza it can actually be spammed.

Attention: The following is a lot of what ifs.
Its movepool in reliable trapping and hitting flying types such as Ho-Oh and Skarmory with STAB super effectively isn't something that is to be taken lightly.
Assuming it keeps Aura Break, and gains some SpD or HP it may be able to take Xerneas on in a 1v1 situation. Currently a +2 Moonblast on Max HP/SpD 50% Zygarde isn't a guaranteed OHKO. Imagine how many highly viable mons this will impact.
STAB High Power 1k Arrows/Waves onto PDon where it can't hit back well.
STAB Dragon to hit MRay well, Dragon moves may see increase in usage on MRay.
Lives +2 Moonblast, Roars out or Glares to provide room for set-up or revenge killing.
Ho-Oh weak to 1K arrows, Skarmory weak to 1k Arrows
Gets Glare, Phazing, ExtremeSpeed, Myriad of options for Ground STAB that have their own unique perks.
Defensive typing is okay due to Ice moves being fairly rare, takes less from fairy aura boosted attacks.
It's definitely going to change the metagame drastically, assuming its power makes it to the high ranks of Ubers.

My opinion on Machamp.
It'll be a really gimmicky mon, common on the strands of the low ladder and selected teams high ladder; See Smeargle usage.
It won't be the next Klefki by any means, however it will break a few common cores, see Ho-Oh/PDon/Waterceus.
A flying type is now a necessity on every team, or Machamp is a definite problem.
It will change the meta, that is a definite. However, it is somewhat like Klefki in which Tiksi stated. Not to that extent, however still a reliable check (any flying type ever except like Ho-Oh) is necessary.
DynamicPunch on switch-in will be annoying, however not something that can't be avoided.
To be honest, it does sound scary on paper, albeit in game it won't live up to the hype.

What upsets me most about complete Zygarde is definitely the way in which it can be spammed. It means that a team can run different sets, e.g. scarf, specs, LO, Lefties, multiple times on the same team and, as such, will reshape the metagame. Ice, already a good offensive type, probably will receive a massive boost in viability, making Pokemon like Kyurem-White, Arceus-Ice and even Weaville gain viability. Xygarde may even drop Pdon, the king of Ubers, to the A ranks, since Thousand Arrows deals massive damage. Mega Rayquaza may even be challenged to remain a viable pick, as Zygarde doesn't take up a Mega slot, but will presumably pack a large amount of offensive power. All this in isolation would still be fun to play with, but with the possibility of a team containing 3+ complete Zygarde the metagame will definitely change.

 

[Ninjatiger1219]

Can't you just run 6 shuckle and its gg

 

[TheHungrySage]

Can't you just run 6 shuckle and its gg

Ninjatiger1219 just broke the metagame, gg.

 

[Ninjatiger1219]

Go power split shuckle and the opponents power gets almost divided by two

 

[TheHungrySage]

Go power split shuckle and the opponents power gets almost divided by two

Lets explore every single reason why tf this wouldn't work.
Assuming you run a Bold Shuckle with max EVs on HP and Defense:
Keldeo Ubers Common OHKO
Kyogre Choice Scarf OHKO
Kyogre-Primal Calm Mind+3 attacks 98-116% damage without boosts
Palkia Offensive 94-114% damage
Kyogre CM+3 attacks 86-101% damage without boosts
Magenzone Ubers Common 84-100% damage
Kyurem White Choice Specs 83-98% damage
Lucario Mega Physical 75-98%
Deoxys-Attack All out attacker 74-87%
Aggron-Mega Ubers common 72-86% damage

Edit:This is not to say by any means that these are the most viable threats to Shuckle, but simply that this is a list off of sweepercalc in terms of what threatens Shuckle the most in terms of damage.

This is but to name the top ten threats to Shuckle. Due to sturdy, OHKO's can't happen without hazards, but Shuckle has minimal offensive presence meaning that anything, in the case of power split, that does a minimum of 67% damage or more, which includes p.much the whole tier when boosts are taken into account, can destroy your team. Six Shuckle is not a good team, unless you're still fiddling around in the lower ranks of the ladder. Sorry.

Source-SweeperCalc

 

[MZ]

Keldeo Ubers Common
Magenzone Ubers Common
Aggron-Mega Ubers common

wut

Also did I miss something where zygarde complete form is announced and concretely here and we know its stats and movepool? Theorymonning it to be broken already seems way premature, obviously if it has a significant power and speed boost over regular zygarde that sounds amazing but it still hasn't been seen outside of corocoro, it might be a total letdown. Saying it seems unfair is way too premature.

 

[Adeleine]

Lets explore every single reason why tf this wouldn't work.
Assuming you run a Bold Shuckle with max EVs on HP and Defense:
Keldeo Ubers Common OHKO
Kyogre Choice Scarf OHKO
Kyogre-Primal Calm Mind+3 attacks 98-116% damage without boosts
Palkia Offensive 94-114% damage
Kyogre CM+3 attacks 86-101% damage without boosts
Magenzone Ubers Common 84-100% damage
Kyurem White Choice Specs 83-98% damage
Lucario Mega Physical 75-98%
Deoxys-Attack All out attacker 74-87%
Aggron-Mega Ubers common 72-86% damage
This is but to name the top ten threats to Shuckle. Due to sturdy, OHKO's can't happen without hazards, but Shuckle has minimal offensive presence meaning that anything, in the case of power split, that does a minimum of 67% damage or more, which includes p.much the whole tier when boosts are taken into account, can destroy your team. Six Shuckle is not a good team, unless you're still fiddling around in the lower ranks of the ladder. Sorry.

More simply, instead of going into really uncommon stuff like Keldeo and Aggron-Mega (?) lol; yeah, 6 Shuckle is pretty bad. It is pretty much completely destroyed by:
Anything with Taunt
Anything with Substitute
a hazard + Primal Kyogre
Darkrai
Smeargle
Anything that doesnt mind Toxic (be it Arceus-Steel, Rest Giratina, Skarmory, etc...)
Magic Bounce
Baton Pass teams


Most teams worth their salt should have at least one of these things

 

[Hourai]

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Trick
- Shift Gear
- Double Team
- Baton Pass

Regirock @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge

This gimmick may take a while to set up and is completely ripped apart by No Guard, but it's extremely satisfying when pulled off

 

[Adeleine]

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Moody
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Power Trick
- Shift Gear
- Double Team
- Baton Pass

Regirock @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
- Stone Edge

This gimmick may take a while to set up and is completely ripped apart by No Guard, but it's extremely satisfying when pulled off

I don't see the benefit in using Regirock, though I may be missing something. You're going to have a rather hard time setting up both Double Team and Shift Gear, and Smeargle most definitely needs Spore...

Other things that can take this out would be Taunt, Whirlwind/Roar/Haze, almost every viable Pokemon (if you don't use Spore), Pokemon with Magic Coat / Substitute / Magic Bounce (if you do use Spore)