Agility Staraptor [QC 0/3]

[bubbly]

Yeah, Staraptor has limited options and Return is probably best for sweeping.
My concern here is definitely how to set up. Almost nothing in the game is unable to damage him significantly, so he's never going to be running through teams. Ultimately I think this would simply require too much support to be worthwhile (as well as the fact that you're just never going to get past Rotom).

 

[SlimMan]

My response is color-coded to make it easier to understand.

My biggest qualm with this set: When do you expect to set him up? With only 100 base speed even with max investment you won't be out-speeding much. Slower, bulkier pokemon sure. But the faster, sweeper-style pokemon will outrun you easily. Staraptor also can't afford to switch in to ANYTHING, because his average-at-best defenses coupled with the fact that he needs all of his HP intact to even hope for a sweep limits the options considerably. Stealth Rock takes 25% of his HP, and getting Staraptor the agility doesn't guarantee much. Sure you outspeed frail offensive pokemon now, but how exactly do you expect to get staraptor around bulky pokemon? You can't exactly say "well, I'll just get them out of the way first" because you may not always even know they are there.

Cons:
~Too Risky to set up
~Weak to SR
~Unable to switch in
~If forced out, he will lose another 25% upon even coming in again
~Intimidate doesn't necessarily ease set up, because all you need to do to cripple this sets effectiveness is take away at least 30% of its HP. 25% upon switch in,+30% damage, +33% if BB is a OHKO = 88% already gone. Staraptor also cannot afford to use Roost with an enemy right there waiting to strike him. Teams also usually carry some form of priority attack, and I don't see staraptor taking those.

It's not a bad set, but if you ask me it requires far too much based around it, when the payoff isn't exactly great

Comments on your comments... lol:

- You can force out your opponent with Intimidate, then use Agility on the switch (Who is being forced out?)
- Roost is a must if you want to run both Brave Bird and Life Orb (When can he successfully roost?)
- U-Turn can be used if you are forced to switch, damage, then switch in a counter (staraptor cannot afford multiple switch ins)
- Outspeeds Scarfed Base 100's after an Agility (I may need calcs, but this seems to only matter against flygon. Jirachi can take either of your hits at least once)
- Can also outspeed Scarfed Starmie
- Return is good, reliable move for Neutral damage if you wish to use it.
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
- Can dent a lot of Pokemon with neutral Brave Bird (staraptor can't afford to dent, as the recoil+attack is dangerous)
- Cannot deal with Pokemon carrying Ice Shard, naturally (Can't deal with much prio at all, save maybe a weak mach punch)
- Basically a scarf set, without the scarf, and some move modifications (but also without the immediate threat)
- Roost should be used if you plan on running Life Orb. Return goes with the Leftovers. Pursuit is viable on either item choice.(I still don't see roost as an incredibly save option)

Bold means you described Zapdos
Underlined means you described Gyarados
Green means you described half the sweepers in OU. Infernape, Jolteon, Weavile, Gengar, etc.
What pokemon is faster and runs a Scarf on their most common set? Unless you have an answer, that statement doesn't matter.
Choice Band Scizor poses an immediate threat, but a Swords Dance set allows it to clean up late game. It's almost the same thing here.

 

[Zenrot1]

I'm describing weaknesses of both. You can't exactly pull a couple sentences and say "this pokemon also has this". So what. Stealth Rock weak is all flying types, its still a con here. You completely ignored half of the point on one of my posts just to point out SR weakness. Also, it has all of those weaknesses they both have stuck together, thats not a good thing. I could say "camerupt is weak to water". Just because infernape is too doesn't make camerupt better.

You don't seem to be understanding my posts, and are just saying "stuff counters stuff" . Staraptor's counter is anything that can survive one of its hits. Also, infernape KO's quite a few bulky pokemon. My point was that this staraptor set has relatively low power by comparison to many sweepers, meaning its easy to counter, and can't afford the HP loss caused by forced switches. Staraptor also doesn't have many notable resistances to switch in with other than his immunity to ground. You can't generalize like that.

Speed has nothing to do with my post on flygon. I'm talking about their defenses. So what if you outrun flygon and jirachi, you don't OHKO jirachi and he will do some decent damage. My statement was that he may potentially be able to OHKO flygon, which is why it matters. Again, staraptor can't afford to not kill.

Its not the same thing, as swords dance gives Scizor the power to beat both offensive and defensive pokemon. Congrats on staraptor defeating a good number of offensive threats, but I don't care how fast he becomes, he still can't push past most physical walls. Also, BOTH of staraptor's main attacking options have detrimental side effects (lower defenses, or HP loss) meaning that with every attack you make, you are that much easier to kill.

 

[Siegrin]

I reckon pursuit is completely unnecessary on this set, as Brave Bird on a not very effective pokemon will still generate a 90 base power attack, while the super effective pursuit will only do 80, of course, you can count in the recoil damage, but I'd go for the STAB return only.

 

[NightShadow]

I'm describing weaknesses of both. You can't exactly pull a couple sentences and say "this pokemon also has this". So what. Stealth Rock weak is all flying types, its still a con here. Yes, but lots of other flying types can actually afford to switch into Stealth Rock, even if they don't particularly like it, such as Bulky Zapdos You completely ignored half of the point on one of my posts just to point out SR weakness. Also, it has all of those weaknesses they both have stuck together, thats not a good thing. I could say "camerupt is weak to water". Just because infernape is too doesn't make camerupt better. You can't really compare Infernape to Camerupt. Infernape is several billion times better, and the only time Camerupt is going to beat Ape 1v1 is when its under Trick Room and Ape doesn't have Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch. Its like trying to compare the Blissey to Wigglytuff, or Azelf to Unown. Heck, Infernape is just about as bulky (which is not very). They serve different purposes on a team, and if you're playing OU, there is no reason to use Camerupt outside of a TR team.

 

[Zenrot1]

I don't understand your post. It looks like you are against me, but you are only stating my points. Are you arguing against me?

Many Flying types can afford to switch into SR, Staraptor is not one, it seems we agree there.

Camerupt vs. Infernape was a very drastic difference I was using to point out the discrepancies used by the poster before me. I know infernape is infinitely better, that was the point.

So... we agree right?

 

[NightShadow]

Well, I agree with most of your post, I just don't think you can try to compare Ape and Camerupt. The two of them are completely incomparable, in the sense that Ape is a lot better. You can compare Ape and Dragonite maybe, or Ape and Vire, but not Ape and Camerupt =_=. but yea i agree with the rest of your post. This set really isn't that good, and it can't muscle its way through walls.

 

[Zenrot1]

It was an over-exaggeration to be sure, it was meant to be though.

One problem that really hurts this set, is that unless you predict on an EQ, ratpor cannot switch into ANYTHING. You might scare blissey or snorlax away with CC, but you can't afford to be status'ed or wounded by lax. You almost have to bring it in after a KO ever single time. And like I said before, all they need to do is at minimum 32% of staraptor's HP with an attack, meaning intimidate isn't exactly reliable.

25% from SR, 32% attack, 33% BB recoil, 10% LO. 25 + 32 + 33 + 10 = 100. <- Thats death. So even if it gets fully set up, if it takes any prior damage and then uses Brave Bird, you can only hope for an even 1v1 exchange.

 

[jrp]

Added a couple calcs, which I did by hand, I'll add more when I'm actually on a computer that doesn't block all the damage calculators.

 

[NightShadow]

i'm not sure if your calcs are right, i don't really trust most calculators outside of the smogon one. assume yours are right for now.

blissey really shouldn't be staying in on Staraptor anyways, so calcs on Blissey aren't too useful. Really, Staraptor can't muscle its way through bulkier stuff like Bronzong. And why calcs against ScarfRachi? ScarfRachi can Trick a Scarf onto you, locking you into CC, and switch into a resister/immunity to set-up.

 

[jrp]

i'm not sure if your calcs are right, i don't really trust most calculators outside of the smogon one. assume yours are right for now.

blissey really shouldn't be staying in on Staraptor anyways, so calcs on Blissey aren't too useful. Really, Staraptor can't muscle its way through bulkier stuff like Bronzong. And why calcs against ScarfRachi? ScarfRachi can Trick a Scarf onto you, locking you into CC, and switch into a resister/immunity to set-up.

Wait, smogon has a calculator? (facepalm)
I'll run a calc on Bronzong with common sets.
I know CC can 2HKO 0 HP/ 0 Def Metagross, which is useful.
However, Meta can OHKO back with Meteor Mash or one of the elemental punches.

Added a bunch more calcs on OU tank Pokemon and opposing threats.

 

[Marcurcio]

I agree that return should probably be the main slash, especially since it gives good damage output without brave bird's terrible recoil.

 

[Zenrot1]

Some calcs I ran. Using adamant nature on these with Life Orb.

- Close Combat vs Scarf Jirachi (342/236): 176-208
~ He can 2HKO Scarf Jirachi, which is pretty nice.
2hko isn't enough

- Close Combat vs Wish/Calm Mind Jirachi (404/292): 143-169
~ He can still 2HKO Jirachi, even with investment into its defenses.
Wish/CM Jirachi carries tbolt, so you lose to this one too

- Close Combat vs Tank Bronzong (252/80) 42.9% - 50.6%
~ A nice change of 2HKOing, if you have SR up, higher chance, but not guarenteed
Gyro Ball will destroy staraptor

- Return vs OU Tank Weezing (252/252): 43.1% - 50.6%
~ Pretty impressive, seeing as Weezing is an incredibly defensive Pokemon. Stealth Rock guarentees the 2HKO
OU tank carries Tbolt. Will that KO raptor?

-Return vs standard Gliscor (252/4): 52.5% - 61.9%
~ Not even Gliscor can do very well against this. A guarenteed 2HKO, with or without Stealth Rock
2HKO might actually be enough against Glis, since EQ is usually its only attack

-Return vs Tank Swampert (240/216): 44.4% - 52.6%
~Can 2HKO. With Spikes and/or Stealth Rock, you are guarenteed the 2HKO.
SR does 6% to swampert, so if you get min damage roll both times 44 + 44 = 88 + 6 = 94. Its a low chance, but its not guaranteed at all.

-Return vs Bulky DD Gyarados (156/96): 43.8% - 51.9%
~Even if Staraptor gets to -1 attack from Gyarados's Intimidate, it can still tear into Gyarados with Return. If you have Stealth Rock up, you are guarenteed a 2HKO with Return.
Gyarados is gonna obliterate Staraptor with Waterfall. 2HKO isn't enough on something that can take you out

 

[jrp]

-Return vs Bulky DD Gyarados (156/96): 43.8% - 51.9%
~Even if Staraptor gets to -1 attack from Gyarados's Intimidate, it can still tear into Gyarados with Return. If you have Stealth Rock up, you are guarenteed a 2HKO with Return.
Gyarados is gonna obliterate Staraptor with Waterfall. 2HKO isn't enough on something that can take you out
Waterfall from Gyarados: 52.4% - 62.1%

 

[Zenrot1]

Leaving you, at best, with 13% after your first attack. And that is bare minimum damage roll. 4% more and the best you manage is a tie.

 

[jrp]

Leaving you, at best, with 13% after your first attack. And that is bare minimum damage roll. 4% more and the best you manage is a tie.

Anyway, most of the calcs are running assuming a switch in.
I mean, most people would be unwilling to sacrifice their sweeper and leave it a sitting duck for Staraptor to take out, I at least would reflexively switch in something with Intimidate to ease the pain, or switch a tank in.

 

[Zenrot1]

Anyway, most of the calcs are running assuming a switch in.
I mean, most people would be unwilling to sacrifice their sweeper and leave it a sitting duck for Staraptor to take out, I at least would reflexively switch in something with Intimidate to ease the pain, or switch a tank in.

I would. A sweeper who has already been wounded by staraptor, especially Gyarados who can't take another hit from SR after it, is more than acceptable death fodder. Assuming they are switching in sounds like calcing from an advantage, as that assumes you will always hit the correct pokemon with the correct move. Sweeping is what this set is meant to, so the calcs should reflect that. Nobody is just gonna switch their whole team around allowing you to take chunks off all of their HP.

Even if this set does get lucky on the switch in and nails the right pokemon with the right move, its still only good for one KO. Then their next pokemon will kill it, since raptor lacks OHKO'ing power on anything that isn't paper. As I've said before, all the speed in the world doesn't matter when you can't back it up.

What I'd say for this set is simply to slash Agility as an option on the current Life Orb set, and give it a mention that with Agility staraptor is capable of defeating many offensive threats. This is already just the LO set with Agility thrown in anyway, and I don't see Agility being such a massive boon to staraptor that it warrants a new set.

 

[jrp]

I would. A sweeper who has already been wounded by staraptor, especially Gyarados who can't take another hit from SR after it, is more than acceptable death fodder. Assuming they are switching in sounds like calcing from an advantage, as that assumes you will always hit the correct pokemon with the correct move. Sweeping is what this set is meant to, so the calcs should reflect that. Nobody is just gonna switch their whole team around allowing you to take chunks off all of their HP.

Even if this set does get lucky on the switch in and nails the right pokemon with the right move, its still only good for one KO. Then their next pokemon will kill it, since raptor lacks OHKO'ing power on anything that isn't paper. As I've said before, all the speed in the world doesn't matter when you can't back it up.

What I'd say for this set is simply to slash Agility as an option on the current Life Orb set, and give it a mention that with Agility staraptor is capable of defeating many offensive threats. This is already just the LO set with Agility thrown in anyway, and I don't see Agility being such a massive boon to staraptor that it warrants a new set.

Like several of the above posters mentioned, this set is likely a good one to clean up late game, after your opponents have been thorughly weakened.
Similarally to, for example Swords Dance Weavile. Weavile already has the speed, but the SD increases the attack. Staraptor has the opposite, he has the attack, but needs the speed.
(I know that weavile has higher stats then Staraptor, I was making a comparison).
The idea of this set is to function as a late game sweeper, not the opening sweeper.
Edit, actually, come to think of it, they can easilly be compared. They have lacking defense stats, require good team support, and are weak to stealth rock.

 

[Kevin Garrett]

Agility is best mentioned in Optional Changes. It is inefficient between the Stealth Rock weakness, needing a free turn to set up, and actually making the boost worthwhile by taking out something it normally couldn't. The latter is the most difficult part since Staraptor is already fast. The SubRoost set accomplishes the same thing because it can hit faster Pokemon from behind a Substitute while maintaining longevity with a recovery move. That combination makes it much more efficient with its Stealth Rock weakness and abundance of Steels in the metagame, which would force this set to switch out or fall.

I'll let the other QC members weight in on this before I reject it.

 

[jrp]

Agility is best mentioned in Optional Changes. It is inefficient between the Stealth Rock weakness, needing a free turn to set up, and actually making the boost worthwhile by taking out something it normally couldn't. The latter is the most difficult part since Staraptor is already fast. The SubRoost set accomplishes the same thing because it can hit faster Pokemon from behind a Substitute while maintaining longevity with a recovery move. That combination makes it much more efficient with its Stealth Rock weakness and abundance of Steels in the metagame, which would force this set to switch out or fall.

I'll let the other QC members weight in on this before I reject it.

Even if the set gets rejected, like you said, It should at least be mentioned in Optional Changes, or perhaps even be mentioned as a slash on the Life Orb set. It seems like Agility is too valuable of a move to be completely ignored, as the current analysis does.
One other thing is that the current Life Orb set forces Staraptor to switch out a lot against faster opponents (ie Starmie, Infernape and Gengar)
This set allows Staraptor to easilly eliminate any of those three without any issues, whether it be Starmie with Return, Infernape with Return/Brave Bird, and Gengar can be OHKO'd by an unboosted Pursuit if you're running it, or a Brave Bird.

 

[Zenrot1]

Like several of the above posters mentioned, this set is likely a good one to clean up late game, after your opponents have been thorughly weakened.
Similarally to, for example Swords Dance Weavile. Weavile already has the speed, but the SD increases the attack. Staraptor has the opposite, he has the attack, but needs the speed.
(I know that weavile has higher stats then Staraptor, I was making a comparison).
The idea of this set is to function as a late game sweeper, not the opening sweeper.
Edit, actually, come to think of it, they can easilly be compared. They have lacking defense stats, require good team support, and are weak to stealth rock.

Note that, yes they are comparable, but Weavile isn't very good, I don't know why you want the comparison. Also, Staraptor doesn't have enough power to support an agility set only. His defenses are so lackluster that all you need is prio to wreck him, and you don't have sub to protect him from it on this set. I don't care how fast you are, Prio will get you. Just like it doesn't matter how strong SD makes weavile. Both of them are made of Paper Mache, and crumble easily. The only way it will easily clean up late game is against highly offensive teams, who don't have defensive pokemon to fall back on.

SD Scizor +0 Bullet Punch: 60.1% - 71.4%
NP Infernape +0 Vacuum Wave: 40.8% - 48.2%
SD Lucario +0 Extreme Speed: 47.3% - 55.9%

Just to name a few. Now, Wall wise:

Bronzong Standard Tank Gyro Ball: 58.2% - 68.8%
Physically Defensive Skarmory Brave Bird: 46.3% - 54.3%
Physically Defensive Forretress Gyro Ball: 51.4% - 61.1%
Physically Defense Hippowdon Stone Edge: 68.2% - 80.4%
Support Cresselia Ice Beam: 60.5% - 71.4%

Staraptor against them. All calcs are for the same movesets as the above pokemon.:

Staraptor LO Close Combat vs. Bronzong: 39.1% - 46.2%
Staraptor LO Close Combat vs. Skarmory: 27.5% - 32.6%
Staraptor LO Brave Bird vs. Forretress: 41.8% - 49.4%
Staraptor LO Brave Bird vs. Hippowdon: 40% - 47.1%
Staraptor LO Brave Bird vs. Cresselia: 34.5% - 40.5%

How are you going to clean up against any of the common physical walls out there? They would have to be nearly destroyed completely in order to fall to this set. They'll kill you before you kill them, even if they are wounded. Not to mention Skarmory and Hippowdon can easily heal off your hits. I see no merit in putting in all the team support this set requires, when every single one of these pokemon stops it dead, just to name a few. Also, You can't say "well I'm gonna hit them on the switch in" because Staraptor has to use Agility on the switch, otherwise it will never get the chance. I'm gonna repeat my statement than Agility should be mentioned, but doesn't deserve a dedicated set.

EDIT: Added more Calcs

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think what this is getting at is "what makes the boost worthwhile?"

Let's take a look at two significant Agility sweepers: Metagross and Lucario.

Metagross isn't very fast, but it's ridiculously bulky, and it hits like a god damn truck. Steel + Electric + Ground has excellent coverage, and the things that can either outspeed Metagross or survive a hit from it cannot threaten it (outside of maybe pert but eh). Metagross makes an excellent Agility sweeper because it allows Metagross to beat faster sweepers it normally wouldn't be able to beat, while retaining its ability to muscle through walls.

On the other hand, you have Lucario. Where he lacs in bulk, he makes up for in additional speed, excellent type coverage, and a ridiculously excellent STAB Close Combat, one of the best offensive moves in the game. Again, Lucario is generally bested by faster Pokemon that can survive ExtremeSpeed, so Agility gives it a significant leg up against offensive teams, while preserving the power to muscle through walls that for the most part cannot threaten it (again, pert, but whatever).

And then we come to Staraptor. It's already fast, so a lot of the bite of "outspeeding offensive teams" is already lost by virtue of it already outspeeding a lot of things on those teams anyway. On top of that, it's strong, but not *that* strong. 120 Attack isn't bad, but when you're restricted to only using your STAB Brave Bird sparingly or dying, you end up with a significant problem. However, this is where we come into the "big deal". All those walls that gave you trouble before? They still rip you limb from limb. You can't threaten them effectively, because your type coverage is nothing special, and your resistances are essentially nonexistant. You're already coming in at a disadvantage, because you're basically forced to come in at 75% (or 50% should you be forced out early!) and then kill yourself with LO and Brave Bird, in order to still fail to 2HKO these walls! You're even going to have trouble OHKOing many just marginally bulky Pokemon, and unlike Metagross or Luke, you don't have a boatload of resistances to play on... just your disappointing Normal/Flying typing.

I'd rather not even have this in AC, as any situation in which it would clean up or perform a task is a situation in which any one of a number of better Pokemon could do the same, and it's not even very good at that task to begin with.

Oh, and one last thing. If my opponent gave me a free turn with Raptor to set something up, I'd much rather it be a Substitute. God knows you're not going to be successfully setting up Agility without a free turn to do it with.

QC REJECTED (1/3)

KG, fire away.

 

[Marcurcio]

I completely agree with SDS, these were my concerns exactly.

 

[SlimMan]

*sigh* I think I'm fighting a lost cause.

I'm describing weaknesses of both. You can't exactly pull a couple sentences and say "this pokemon also has this". So what. Stealth Rock weak is all flying types, its still a con here. You completely ignored half of the point on one of my posts just to point out SR weakness. Also, it has all of those weaknesses they both have stuck together, thats not a good thing. I could say "camerupt is weak to water". Just because infernape is too doesn't make camerupt better.

You don't seem to be understanding my posts, and are just saying "stuff counters stuff" . Staraptor's counter is anything that can survive one of its hits. Also, infernape KO's quite a few bulky pokemon. My point was that this staraptor set has relatively low power by comparison to many sweepers, meaning its easy to counter, and can't afford the HP loss caused by forced switches. Staraptor also doesn't have many notable resistances to switch in with other than his immunity to ground. You can't generalize like that.

Speed has nothing to do with my post on flygon. I'm talking about their defenses. So what if you outrun flygon and jirachi, you don't OHKO jirachi and he will do some decent damage. My statement was that he may potentially be able to OHKO flygon, which is why it matters. Again, staraptor can't afford to not kill.

Its not the same thing, as swords dance gives Scizor the power to beat both offensive and defensive pokemon. Congrats on staraptor defeating a good number of offensive threats, but I don't care how fast he becomes, he still can't push past most physical walls. Also, BOTH of staraptor's main attacking options have detrimental side effects (lower defenses, or HP loss) meaning that with every attack you make, you are that much easier to kill.

With your Camerupt analogy, I assume you thought I meant Staraptor is better than Zapdos/Gyarados. I did not. I'm saying that an SR weakness doesn't mean it's too weak for OU, which is what I assume you meant. Salamence was still broken, even with an SR weakness.

I didn't mean to skip half of your sentence. It was my bad.

You say that many weaknesses come together in Staraptor, as opposed to simply having a few. I stick to my point that other threatening OU pokemon have the same flaws. *Warning! Flawed Logic Ahead!* Swords Dance Weavile has an analysis on sight, but Weavile is weak to SR. and Mach Punch/Vaccuum Wave. And Bullet Punch. I'm saying that frailty isn't a soley-Staraptor problem.

What I was saying is that the fact that other pokemon can past walls and Staraptor can't makes this set outclassed. Not un-viable. You're saying that because it's not perfect, it's not good enough. At least, I think you're saying that....... I might be misunderstanding you.

Again, correct me if I'm reading you wrong, but your post on Flygon said something to the effect of "It's not very fast, only out-speeds Flygon after an Agility." I said "But that's all it needs to since nothing faster runs a Scarf most commonly." This has nothing to do with Jirachi threatening it. If your post wasn't about speed, than I don't quite grasp what it was about.

I've already mentioned the thing about physical walls. Both of Infernape's main physical options have detrimental side effects. And, to be frank, Infernape isn't very bulky either. However, since my "so does X pokemon" arguments apparently are flawed, I'll stop there.

My argument is somewhat flat beyond what I've already said. To quote my mother, I'd be "beating a dead horse" if continued on this.

I don't understand your post. It looks like you are against me, but you are only stating my points. Are you arguing against me?

Many Flying types can afford to switch into SR, Staraptor is not one, it seems we agree there.

Camerupt vs. Infernape was a very drastic difference I was using to point out the discrepancies used by the poster before me. I know infernape is infinitely better, that was the point.

So... we agree right?

I don't know about NightShadow, but I think that you and I are saying the same things in two different ways. For instance, We've both stated that it doesn't muscle through walls and is weak to SR.

I think what this is getting at is "what makes the boost worthwhile?"

QC REJECTED (1/3)

KG, fire away.

I suppose my defense of the set ends here. You're in QC, and I trust that you know best.

 

[HART4FLOON]

I tested this and while powerful it can't switch into shit. At least Gengar has a nice set of immunities and actually has good type coverage while Staraptor has shitty coverage and can literally switch into nothing (and even most things that run eq can beat staraptor with a coverage move anyway). and staraptor will get beaten one-on-one by basically every common physical wall you can think of

and also i found just straight out attacking to be more useful then trying to set up agility. staraptor can get forced out by so much fucking things it's not even funny.

so at best i think that this should only go to oo