Ability Unity!

[Bcadren]

I figured out a funny gimmick combo that can work with entry hazards and has the ultimate odd phazer.

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 (Def/SpD) / 4 Spe
(Bold/Careful) Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Tail
- Roar

63.4% chance for priority force switch while asleep.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I'm usually a stallplayer, it's what I do and I'm good at doing it. But I agree that stall has gotten out of control. Regen spam coupled with Ditto makes battles easily last 200+ turns and its choking the air out of the metagame, I came up with the clause and I believe it to work effectively against specific abilities, there isn't Protean spam or anything like that. But it does virtually nothing to fix the problem with regenerator.

And trust me, if there's somebody who knows the wallbreakers and can rate them in order in most metagames, it's me... But I cannot reliably beat stall even when I edicate four members to it. FOUR. I had Mold breaker Lum Manaphy, Life orb Special Lucario, Kyurem-B and Sceptile mega - all of that paired with pursuit support, and still I found myself losing to stall... Regenerator cores, magic bouncers, unaware and imposter is a blockade preventing offense from being... Well offense.

In metagames like Inheritance there's always a way. Building a stall-team that doesn't automatically lose to TC Haxorous or Protean spam or Mega Medicham demands excellent teambuilding. But there aren't a lot of equivilants here... There aren't a lot of wallbreakers or stallbreakers, meaning you can create a stallteam as easy and with minimal effort and it'll work consistently on the ladder.

Battles aren't meant to last forever. I'd assume the average battle last around twenty turns, but here it's probably in the 50s. And I honestly prefer the metagame to be 9/10 in terms of offensive teams for one stall team.

So what can we do? Well... The clause works well, it solves overpowering offense and birdspam. But it doesn't solve stall. So when chatot is banned, I believe we should look into restricting regenerator. And I'mtargetting regen over Magic bounce/Unaware because the ladder don't create endless battles. If you can't break a regen core, they can switch around endlessly, and without being pressured.

Options:

a) Ban regenerator

b) restrict all abilities to two per team

c) Restrict regenerator to one or two members

d) systematically suspect regen users and ban them

e) Ban stall. Ban bird. Ban aja

The Immortal any of these options out of the picture completely?

Thanks for reading

~ Aja

 

[Gardite]

Those are reasonable ideas for fixing stall, but one idea that might be simpler is to reconsider Ability Clause (that is, one ability per team). The current ability clause thing was a clever idea, and it made sense to play with it for a while, but I think it didn't actually fix the problem. A stronger ability clause would lead to a more diverse metagame, and in particular it would force stall to build intelligently instead of just spamming abilities like regenerator.

 

[sin(pi)]

bear in mind I've played all of 10 games of AU, all low ladder, so take this with a pinch of salt

I'm wondering why Perish Trap hasn't seen more play. It sounds like the kind of thing which completely eliminates stall - eg:

Gengar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe (EV's obviously customisable)
Timid Nature
- Mean Look
- Perish Song
- 2 from [Taunt/Substitute/Protect/Shadow Ball/Sludge Wave]

Set is fairly self-explanatory, bait in special walls and proceed to trap them. Taunt is probably the most useful, to avoid phazing.

Azumarill can also run a similar set, as can Honchkrow (notable because Prankster), and some other mons but it's far too obvious on them.

 

[Shruggy]

I'm usually a stallplayer, it's what I do and I'm good at doing it. But I agree that stall has gotten out of control. Regen spam coupled with Ditto makes battles easily last 200+ turns and its choking the air out of the metagame, I came up with the clause and I believe it to work effectively against specific abilities, there isn't Protean spam or anything like that. But it does virtually nothing to fix the problem with regenerator.

And trust me, if there's somebody who knows the wallbreakers and can rate them in order in most metagames, it's me... But I cannot reliably beat stall even when I edicate four members to it. FOUR. I had Mold breaker Lum Manaphy, Life orb Special Lucario, Kyurem-B and Sceptile mega - all of that paired with pursuit support, and still I found myself losing to stall... Regenerator cores, magic bouncers, unaware and imposter is a blockade preventing offense from being... Well offense.

In metagames like Inheritance there's always a way. Building a stall-team that doesn't automatically lose to TC Haxorous or Protean spam or Mega Medicham demands excellent teambuilding. But there aren't a lot of equivilants here... There aren't a lot of wallbreakers or stallbreakers, meaning you can create a stallteam as easy and with minimal effort and it'll work consistently on the ladder.

Battles aren't meant to last forever. I'd assume the average battle last around twenty turns, but here it's probably in the 50s. And I honestly prefer the metagame to be 9/10 in terms of offensive teams for one stall team.

So what can we do? Well... The clause works well, it solves overpowering offense and birdspam. But it doesn't solve stall. So when chatot is banned, I believe we should look into restricting regenerator. And I'mtargetting regen over Magic bounce/Unaware because the ladder don't create endless battles. If you can't break a regen core, they can switch around endlessly, and without being pressured.

Options:

a) Ban regenerator

b) restrict all abilities to two per team

c) Restrict regenerator to one or two members

d) systematically suspect regen users and ban them

e) Ban stall. Ban bird. Ban aja

The Immortal any of these options out of the picture completely?

Thanks for reading

~ Aja

I too feel that this is a very stall-y meta, currently at #2 and #3 and its kind of disgusting how good regenerator is combined with how easy magic-bounce is to fit onto your teams. But i also feel that people are overlooking traditional stall-breakers in favour of things with shiny new abilities. Here's one that i've been using:

Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Quick Attack
- Close Combat

This thing WRECKS the current meta. Cutesy regen cores and unaware pokes get destroyed by this thing. Its traditional 'checks' or revenge killers from OU are no-longer anywhere in this meta. M-diance? Very rare. Scarf T-tar? Very rare. Thundy? Non-existant. Klefki? Non-existant.

But on the other hand things like Snorlax, Chesnaught, Hoopa, chansey, umbreon are everywhere

As the meta is currently very bulky and stally its 105 speed-tier is now faster than 99% of people out there. Why is this good? Because it out-speeds ALL the galewings users. Why is this relevant?

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 258-304 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 211-249 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pair M-pinsir with a mold-breaker rocker (plenty out there) and you got yourself a fairly unstoppable sweeper. This guy has always been a monster and he is only stronger here in this meta than he is normally in OU.

The only stops to him are Skarmory with BB, Prankster Zapdos and Cobalion with stone edge. Things like prankster mew you dont really care about as you can just SD again when they willo and continue with the sweep. Here are a couple of replays showcasing his ability:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/abilityunity-358132343

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/abilityunity-358168885

 

[motherlove]

I too feel that this is a very stall-y meta, currently at #2 and #3 and its kind of disgusting how good regenerator is combined with how easy magic-bounce is to fit onto your teams. But i also feel that people are overlooking traditional stall-breakers in favour of things with shiny new abilities. Here's one that i've been using:

Pinsir-Mega @ Pinsirite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Return
- Quick Attack
- Close Combat

This thing WRECKS the current meta. Cutesy regen cores and unaware pokes get destroyed by this thing. Its traditional 'checks' or revenge killers from OU are no-longer anywhere in this meta. M-diance? Very rare. Scarf T-tar? Very rare. Thundy? Non-existant. Klefki? Non-existant.

But on the other hand things like Snorlax, Chesnaught, Hoopa, chansey, umbreon are everywhere

As the meta is currently very bulky and stally its 105 speed-tier is now faster than 99% of people out there. Why is this good? Because it out-speeds ALL the galewings users. Why is this relevant?

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Braviary: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 258-304 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 211-249 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Pair M-pinsir with a mold-breaker rocker (plenty out there) and you got yourself a fairly unstoppable sweeper. This guy has always been a monster and he is only stronger here in this meta than he is normally in OU.

The only stops to him are Skarmory with BB, Prankster Zapdos and Cobalion with stone edge. Things like prankster mew you dont really care about as you can just SD again when they willo and continue with the sweep. Here are a couple of replays showcasing his ability:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/abilityunity-358132343

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/abilityunity-358168885

Idk man, I feel like pinsir has the same problem as any gale wing heavy meta being that ppl actually end up being more prepared for birdspam and you end up seeing stuff like zapdos, physdef levitate jirachi / metagross, solid rock max def rhydon who really damper his abilities.

I mean theses replays are cool and all but it's not really something you couldn't have done with a braviary.

EDIT: Also I quite like option e) to restrict regen.

 

[The Immortal]

I'm usually a stallplayer, it's what I do and I'm good at doing it. But I agree that stall has gotten out of control. Regen spam coupled with Ditto makes battles easily last 200+ turns and its choking the air out of the metagame, I came up with the clause and I believe it to work effectively against specific abilities, there isn't Protean spam or anything like that. But it does virtually nothing to fix the problem with regenerator.

And trust me, if there's somebody who knows the wallbreakers and can rate them in order in most metagames, it's me... But I cannot reliably beat stall even when I edicate four members to it. FOUR. I had Mold breaker Lum Manaphy, Life orb Special Lucario, Kyurem-B and Sceptile mega - all of that paired with pursuit support, and still I found myself losing to stall... Regenerator cores, magic bouncers, unaware and imposter is a blockade preventing offense from being... Well offense.

In metagames like Inheritance there's always a way. Building a stall-team that doesn't automatically lose to TC Haxorous or Protean spam or Mega Medicham demands excellent teambuilding. But there aren't a lot of equivilants here... There aren't a lot of wallbreakers or stallbreakers, meaning you can create a stallteam as easy and with minimal effort and it'll work consistently on the ladder.

Battles aren't meant to last forever. I'd assume the average battle last around twenty turns, but here it's probably in the 50s. And I honestly prefer the metagame to be 9/10 in terms of offensive teams for one stall team.

So what can we do? Well... The clause works well, it solves overpowering offense and birdspam. But it doesn't solve stall. So when chatot is banned, I believe we should look into restricting regenerator. And I'mtargetting regen over Magic bounce/Unaware because the ladder don't create endless battles. If you can't break a regen core, they can switch around endlessly, and without being pressured.

Options:

a) Ban regenerator

b) restrict all abilities to two per team

c) Restrict regenerator to one or two members

d) systematically suspect regen users and ban them

e) Ban stall. Ban bird. Ban aja

The Immortal any of these options out of the picture completely?

Thanks for reading

~ Aja

If there are only a few viable users, option d. If there are too many users, option a. Which is it?

 

[Imperator Romanum]

If there are only a few viable users, option d. If there are too many users, option a. Which is it?

Type combinations that get regenerator:

Water: Suicune, Manaphy, Blastoise, Lumineon(Defog lmao)
Water/Psychic: Starmie
Water/Rock: Relicanth
Grass: Shaymin
Grass/Poison: Roserade
Psychic: Mew, Cresselia,
Fire/Flying: Talonflame, I guess
Flying: Tornados
Fighting: Conkuldurr, Throh, Hariyama, Hitmontop, Mienshao
Normal: Snorlax, Chansey, Porygon2

 

[Shruggy]

Dont really agree with a blanket ban of regenerator but maybe make it max 1 per team would be a workable solution, its not hard to wear down a single regen user its only when they start to switch around 3-4 of them it becomes silly

 

[Bcadren]

FEAR works really well in this meta; opponent spammed buffs, or has an unaware wall you're having a hard time punching through...FEAR them. I've been running a FEAR Phanpy:

Phanpy @ Focus Sash
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 0
Level: 1
Any Nature
- Endeavor
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
- Knock Off

Because of Sand Stream, any non-steel/rock/ground type immediately dies instead of needing the second turn. Stealth Rock and Knock Off are mostly filler that can rarely come up...like if the foe knows you're about to FEAR endeavor and has a ghost to switch to, you can knock off the ghost's item; or you're against a status mon you don't need to kill immediately you can set up rocks. Heh.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

The most viable Regen users and their niches are like this imo:
Manaphy (RegenVest is lordly)
Chansey (can take some damage and recover it as it passes wishes)
Starmie (can come in and spin multiple times per game)
Blastoise (^)
Porygon2 (forms a nice Regen core on stall)
Suicune (^)
Cresselia (^)
Omastar (checks burds and sets hazards)
Roserade (^ minus checking burds)
Shaymin, Conk, and Hitmontop are usable I guess, but most of the rest AJA listed are meh, prefer other abilities, or get it naturally (and aren't broken)

Tbh, I'd be inclined to go with limiting abilities. I feel like Regen is a beneficial part of the meta, as most of these aren't broken. Omastar, Roserade, Blastoise, Manaphy, etc. all gain new niches, but aren't OP or overcentralizing. The problem lies with multiple bulky mons (such as Cresselia, Suicune, and Chansey) all being used on the same team. I also don't feel like one of these mons on its own is broken--Regen Chans w/o Regen Cune/Cress/Mana etc. all backing it up isn't broken (and yes ik you can only have one of Cune/Mana but one of those+Chans+Cress is plenty good enough). Thus I feel like the best option is an ability clause, rather than an outright ban of the Pokemon (as they aren't broken with other abilities nor are they broken without being in said core), or a Regen ban (as it increases diversity by giving many mons new and useful niches, particularly Omastar/RegenVest Mana because birds are common). I'd be inclined to limit abilities to one per team, however this would invalidate the other clause, and idk if only 2 is broken (though it is still good). Maybe a limit of one "new" user per team? (Meaning Slowbro + Chansey Regen core is OK, Chans + Suicune isn't). That's my opinion, but I'm definitely against banning Regen in general, and I'm also against banning mons individually as there are a lot of good ones, and the problem lies in the core, not the individual imo

 

[The Immortal]

I disagree with limiting number of abilities because it's going to harm certain playstyles (such as stall, funny coming from someone that hates stall).

I agree banning Regenerator isn't the best option. That leaves banning its best abusers. Chansey seems like the worst offender here, correct me if you think otherwise, and that banning it would lead to a better metagame. If that isn't enough we can look at the next best abuser.

Obviously Regenerator is a problem and I want to nerf it, but I don't want to nerf it to such an extreme that the ability clause and banning it would do.

 

[Jajoken]

Obviously an Ability Clause limiting an ability to one per team is very restrictive for certain playstyles, but what's wrong with a limit of two? I realize Stall often requires ability overlap to cover certain threats (two Unaware users, for instance, to address different types of setup sweepers), but I can't think of a archetype that legitimately needs three of the same ability on a team. If anyone can name one, I'm all ears.

The issue with banning Chansey is that a) it only seems truly problematic in conjunction with a core of fellow Regenerator users, and b) there are a handful of fat Normals that easily take its place, most notably Blissey, but also stuff like Porygon2 (though it lacks Wish). We can ban them too, but at that point, why not just crack down on the ability itself? Since directly approaching Regenerator seems like a bad idea, an Ability Clause (limit 2 per team) is the most logical answer in my eyes.

 

[Gardite]

I disagree with limiting number of abilities because it's going to harm certain playstyles (such as stall, funny coming from someone that hates stall).

Why is this a problem, exactly? I thought the main reason we were discussing changes was to limit stall. Limiting playstyles isn't necessarily bad, as it means other playstyles are enhanced.

Destroying stall's viability might be bad, but I don't think that's going to happen. Stall would still be very good with limits on regenerator or any specific pokemon bans-access to abilities like regenerator, unaware, prankster, and magic bounce on bulky pokemon is extremely strong.

 

[SamHPL]

I don't really think Chansey is the best Regenerator user, just because it benefits a lot more from Unaware imo. I'm currently at #4 place on the ladder (using only stall), and I only use one Regenerator mon (Blastoise), though I use a core of two Unaware mons, which is almost a necessity on stall if you're not just spamming Regenerator + Ditto. I feel like the two-abilities clause is fine, banning Chansey seems a bit extreme. Cresselia, Mew, Suicune, Blissey, Porygon-Z, Omastar, Starmie, Blastoise etc... will continue to be annoying. Anyway, Hoopa is now banned and stall gets even stronger. I'm a stall player but I think Regenerator Spam is not fair. As I said before, if you use Regenerator Spam+Ditto and you face stall, two things can happen: you win the pp stall war thanks to Ditto and infinity switching or if the op uses the same strategy, the battle can get to 1500+ turns.

 

[SuperSixFighters]

Reading some of the above, I feel regen is great but not always broken. I vote on a new ability clause or suspecting the top few regen threats ;).

 

[Scarf]

is there even a good reason why multiple pokemon can have the same ability? it's not like stall would die with this implemented. To explain, you're already limited in terms of typing if you want to abuse the same ability on multiple pokemon. Feasibly only the water type and some dual types EG. Water/Rock (Omastar Relicanth etc) are able to do so. There are far better abilities to use on normals on stall like chansey blissey pory2 etcetera such as unaware. With such tight restrictions on teambuilding this playstyle would very easily succumb to threats with its one dimentional team structure

 

[SuperSixFighters]

is there even a good reason why multiple pokemon can have the same ability? it's not like stall would die with this implemented.

It would be a large-ish stall nerf, but I agree it can survive. Stall will find a way!

 

[Scarf]

yea speaking of stall:

Staraptor @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Speed / 6 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double Edge
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- U-Turn

dont think theres much of anything that can live a switchin from this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 186-222 (54 - 64.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 176+ Def Zapdos: 262-308 (68.4 - 80.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 174-204 (52 - 61%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-231 (46.4 - 55%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 80+ Def Tyranitar: 236-280 (58.5 - 69.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%)

but if you're willing to dig a little deeper theres some things capable of tanking it:

252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 108-130 (33.5 - 40.3%)

EDIT: and intimidate gligar also apparently shits on this but the point is that this set at least promotes diversity when it comes to stall otherwise if you roll up with standard quadruple regen chansey garbage you'll get slammed

 

[bp scrub]

yea speaking of stall:

Regen mons like Suicune will be healing around 40% (regen + lefties) which means only 9-18% effective damage while Staraptor itself takes around 25%, and the other mons lik Skarm or Hippo can just spam recovery while Staraptor kills itself. In particular, a stall team could just bring like regen Suicune + regen Cresselia and just switch while Staraptor kills itself.

Rhydon also easily wins, taking less than 50% with 0 defense investment and ohkoing back with a rock move

 

[yoman5]

Regen mons like Suicune will be healing around 40% (regen + lefties) which means only 9-18% effective damage while Staraptor itself takes around 25%, and the other mons lik Skarm or Hippo can just spam recovery while Staraptor kills itself. In particular, a stall team could just bring like regen Suicune + regen Cresselia and just switch while Staraptor kills itself.

Rhydon also easily wins, taking less than 50% with 0 defense investment and ohkoing back with a rock move

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 174-204 (49.5 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO Do pay attention to things like tinted lens.

 

[bp scrub]

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 174-204 (49.5 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO Do pay attention to things like tinted lens.

0 defense investment as in like 252 HP 252 Attack but no defense EVs
After Solid Rock, BB does the same damage as CC, which is just under 50% with a maximum roll

252+ Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 174-204 (42 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Solid Rock Rhydon: 174-205 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Ghoul King]

The OP could use a tweak -saying that Poliwrath doesn't give Manaphy access to Swift Swim is true, but Manaphy can definitely get Swift Swim thanks to all the pure Water Swift Swimmers around. Probably a better example is that Keldeo can't get Drizzle, because Politoed and Kyogre are both pure Water.

Been trying out a rain team, and it's been pretty fun. Biggest flaw with it is that Contrary Grass is so powerful and popular, and there's no real convenient options for countering that while substantially benefiting from rain. It's particularly depressing how Dry Skin is basically only on type-unique Pokemon -Leavanny and Wormadam pick it up from Parasect I guess, but Dry Skin on Bug/Grass is awful.

 

[OLD GREGG (im back baby)]

Biggest flaw with it is that Contrary Grass is so powerful and popular, and there's no real convenient options for countering that while substantially benefiting from rain.

Gale wings moltres can nip that in the bud with priority hurricanes that are 100% accurate in the rain.

 

[haert]

I've tried making a team for this OM but it doesn't seem to battle well and I can't see how to improve it without just copying pokemon and sets from my opponents.

Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Earthquake
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam

Ursaring @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Hammer Arm
- Earthquake
- Aerial Ace

Muk @ Black Sludge
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Venom Drench
- Shadow Sneak
- Substitute

Alakazam @ Alakazite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Energy Ball

Magnezone @ Light Clay
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Flash Cannon
- Discharge

Mismagius @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Will-O-Wisp
- Toxic
- Hex