Is Red considered “the strongest Champion” in “the lore”? I don’t think the games have described or treated him any differently than the other Champions. Is this just a “Pikachu is Lv88 and no other Trainer has a level that high, therefore he is the strongest” thing? Because even that isn’t true anymore as of BDSP.
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The Best and Worst Boss Fights in Pokemon
- Thread starter Yung Dramps
- Start date
I feel like it's more of a vibe (that's mostly died out by now) rather than anything quantifiable. Red's the only Champion-esque trainer whose entire characterisation is 'battling Pokemon and being the strongest', since that's the only context you see him in and he has no dialogue, so imagining that he's canonically the strongest is almost, like, throwing him a bone. After all, it'd be kinda sad to spend such a long time training in complete solitude on a mountain too dangerous for anyone without 16 Gym Badges to approach, let alone climb, only to lose to someone who has other hobbies, responsibilities, and/or personal relationships.
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QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
It's also that he was the first player character to reappear, so there's a slight mystique to him that none of the others have.
He's the most recognisable due to RBY being the first games; beating him in GSC represents the player surpassing him. There's not really an equivalent to that in most other games, so the fandom tends to hold Red in this high esteem despite the fact that numerous other protagonists in the games have accomplished bigger feats than he ever did.
Pretty much. Cynthia has long dethroned him.
With that said, even by objective standards like in-game appearances, he's up there. Easily a top 5 Champion, no doubt. You could even argue top 3.
For some of the best, I think plenty of the totem pokemon fit the category. The verdant cave ones were nothing special, but most of the other ones are great, and are fairly difficult, while also teaching you how to play the game by showing you your teams weaknesses. For example, the water ones are really tanky, Marowak and Lurantis are very deadly sweepers, and Togedemaru constantly wittles you down with passive damage. This, combined with the fact that they are all different types, are able to show your teams blind spots, forcing you to make a more well rounded team. The ally pokemon also force you to figure out what pokemon to prioritise taking out, while also telling you more directly the importance of having a well balenced team that play off each others strengths and cover each others weaknesses. I think the totem pokemon are criminally overlooked when it comes to design.
For the worst:
Honerable mentions to ultra necrozma, for being a ludicrous difficulty curve, but not one thrown at you at the beginning of the game.
For the worst:
Honerable mentions to ultra necrozma, for being a ludicrous difficulty curve, but not one thrown at you at the beginning of the game.
The Best:
Emerald Tate & Liza. God, this fight is so good. It's one of the few examples of real, bona-fide synergy in Pokemon, and it's especially fun to plan for in Nuzlockes. Claydol is a great choice especially with a team of 4 Ground immunities, plus a Xatu to mitigate the team's Water weakness and set up Calm Minds for a potential sweep make for a great opening turn that incentivizes some really neat strategies like Explosion. Solrock is also great, having a Sunny Day setter in this fight is absolutely brilliant and it really abuses the over reliance on Swampert throughout most playthroughs(unless you just kill it lol). Lunatone is kinda the most whatever Mon on the team, but it's still pretty good with Hypnosis to be really annoying on top of a screen. I just love the fight, idk.
The Worst:
USUM Ultra Necrozma. Remember when Nuzlocke communities were seriously considering a Necrozma Clause because of this fight? Yeah I think that says enough. Even outside of that context, it's brutally difficult with +2 in every stat ON TOP OF maxed out bulk EVs and a monstrous movepool. It's just not fun unless you have one of the ways to cheese it.
Emerald Tate & Liza. God, this fight is so good. It's one of the few examples of real, bona-fide synergy in Pokemon, and it's especially fun to plan for in Nuzlockes. Claydol is a great choice especially with a team of 4 Ground immunities, plus a Xatu to mitigate the team's Water weakness and set up Calm Minds for a potential sweep make for a great opening turn that incentivizes some really neat strategies like Explosion. Solrock is also great, having a Sunny Day setter in this fight is absolutely brilliant and it really abuses the over reliance on Swampert throughout most playthroughs(unless you just kill it lol). Lunatone is kinda the most whatever Mon on the team, but it's still pretty good with Hypnosis to be really annoying on top of a screen. I just love the fight, idk.
The Worst:
USUM Ultra Necrozma. Remember when Nuzlocke communities were seriously considering a Necrozma Clause because of this fight? Yeah I think that says enough. Even outside of that context, it's brutally difficult with +2 in every stat ON TOP OF maxed out bulk EVs and a monstrous movepool. It's just not fun unless you have one of the ways to cheese it.
i will say that usum did a better job of preparing you for it than most games, and it is cool, if nothing else. but still, the dificulty spike is so high that making a well rounded team really is not enough to save you. it would be one thing if this forced you to make your team better, but it dosent. it forces you to make your team beat necrozma specifically.
I actually think U-Necrozma sucks from the opposite perspective, it always felt way too easy to trivialize with stuff I was wanting to bring already. The totems at least tried to deal with status via berries, but that only buys them one turn. Necrozma has no such defense (or any typing that provides an immunity), so it always stood out to me as an anticlimactic failure: the first in a growing list of why they should have kept boss fights focused on trainer battles.
what pokemon did you have that trivialized it?
Hey everyone,
The discussion about the strongest Champion in the Pokémon series is always an intriguing one. I think it's fascinating how each player's perception of strength can vary based on their experiences and interpretations of the lore.
Regarding Red, while there's certainly a mystique surrounding him as the iconic Trainer from the original games, I agree with the sentiment that his strength is more of a vibe or a perception rather than something quantifiable. Each Champion brings their own unique strengths and challenges to the table, making it difficult to definitively crown one as the strongest.
That being said, it's undeniable that Red holds a special place in the hearts of many Pokémon fans, myself included. His appearance atop Mt. Silver in Pokémon Gold and Silver was a memorable and challenging encounter, symbolizing the ultimate test for Trainers on their journey.
Speaking of memorable boss fights, I'd like to share an article I wrote on the best and worst boss fights in Pokémon. In it, I delve into some of the most iconic battles in the series and discuss what makes them stand out. Feel free to check it out for some nostalgic reflections and insights into the Pokémon gaming experience: [https://pokemoninfinitefusions.us]
Looking forward to hearing more thoughts on this topic!
The discussion about the strongest Champion in the Pokémon series is always an intriguing one. I think it's fascinating how each player's perception of strength can vary based on their experiences and interpretations of the lore.
Regarding Red, while there's certainly a mystique surrounding him as the iconic Trainer from the original games, I agree with the sentiment that his strength is more of a vibe or a perception rather than something quantifiable. Each Champion brings their own unique strengths and challenges to the table, making it difficult to definitively crown one as the strongest.
That being said, it's undeniable that Red holds a special place in the hearts of many Pokémon fans, myself included. His appearance atop Mt. Silver in Pokémon Gold and Silver was a memorable and challenging encounter, symbolizing the ultimate test for Trainers on their journey.
Speaking of memorable boss fights, I'd like to share an article I wrote on the best and worst boss fights in Pokémon. In it, I delve into some of the most iconic battles in the series and discuss what makes them stand out. Feel free to check it out for some nostalgic reflections and insights into the Pokémon gaming experience: [https://pokemoninfinitefusions.us]
Looking forward to hearing more thoughts on this topic!
For my casual playthrough, Magnezone and Muk-Alola (with Toxic). I was running an artifice theme team. For the damageless run I did prep, so it mainly used Zorua-as-tentacool.
Masters has TPCi working very closely on the dialogue section specifically so that the characters are always shown correctly, and there, Red is pretty clearly the number 1 trainer despite everyone from the series being there. In lore, yeah, I would say pretty easily that's who they want to be canonically the strongest.
Something about an account made today called "pokemonfusion" that sneaks links to Pokemon Infinite Fusions into an otherwise unrelated and regular-seeming post seems extremely fishy.
Lvl 60 0 SpA Necrozma-Ultra Dragon Pulse vs. Lvl 50 0 HP / 0 SpD Muk-Alola: 106-126 (58.8 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lvl 60 0 SpA Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. Lvl 50 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnezone: 67-80 (46.2 - 55.1%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO
+1 Lvl 60 0 Atk Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. Lvl 50 252 HP / 252+ Def Magnezone: 61-72 (34.4 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This means that your pokemon were over leveled and/or had an abnormal amount of bulk investments, because, while i couldnt find ultra necrozmas exact evs for this fight, there is no way that either of those pokemon beat ultra necrozma. as for zorua, zorua cheeses basically everything with a psychic move.
The thing is, those calcs are fine. Muk literally only needs to get one move off, because that move is Toxic. The passive damage will KO necrozma before it has a chance to party wipe, the only thing that actually distinguishes Muk from anything else is that it gets perfect accuracy. I had this figured out before SM released, not even USUM, as an example of why it would be a bad idea to set up UBs as uncatchable bosses. Works for many other status moves as well (e.g. Curse, Perish Song), Toxic was just the most widely available.
Side note: while they're likely semi-randomly distributed, a mon that's been on the team since before trial 1 is basically guaranteed to have full EVs by this point. There might be some cancellation if the calc is using the default 31 IVs for everything, but it looks a bit sketchy to not have filled out anything.
for the ev part, the evs probobly wont be all in def. anyways, my takeaway is that your entire team gets completely wrecked by necrozma, but you call it easy because they didnt finish the job. this is after you toxic stall, a strategy that can hardly be called a part of casual play.
Listen, we can take or leave about how clean a 4-0 is (assuming necrozma always outspeeds and 2HKOs), but I will absolutely defend status use in casual play. It's entirely reasonable to want to use the options you have been given, and it feels very straightforward for passive damage to be primarily used on bosses (basic mobs are taken out too easily to try for a time investment, it's counterproductive when catching). At some level, the gen 7 devs were aware of this: why would they put status-curing berries on totem mons if they didn't expect players to try to use status on them? It's also not like I built the entire team around using this, I had one moveslot out of the full 24.
At the end of the day, we can agree that Necrozma is badly designed. For you, it seems to be because it threatens too many quick KOs. For me, it's because it is forced into trying to OHKO because it folds if it doesn't because the (generally very good) battle system isn't built for 1v6.
Even today I still consider Ultra Necrozma the absolute worst difficulty spike I've ever faced in any video game, and I've faced bosses like Xenoblade's Disciple Lorithia, KH3's Twilight Town Demon Tide, P5R's Shadow Okumura, and Sonic Frontiers TFH's pre patch Master King trial (though that entire DLC as a whole was a huge difficulty spike before the patch, that was just the worst offender). Even to this day I still have not seen anyone beat him without cheesing him. Whitney is a saint in comparison.
I legit dislike Ultra Necc.
It embodies the overcorrection they do in Alola. A massive level spike + EVs + an Omniboost just to compensate the fact that one side is playing chess, the other checkers, and both are on a monopoly board.
It embodies the overcorrection they do in Alola. A massive level spike + EVs + an Omniboost just to compensate the fact that one side is playing chess, the other checkers, and both are on a monopoly board.
my problem with whitney is that it is the third gym leader in the game, and it is not balanced for that. with ultra nec, you at least had most of the game to prepare for that, and you had lots of tools at your disposal. with witney, you basically have to have one of just a few pokemon, or overlevel your pokemon. whitney's miltank is babies first ultra necrozma. an unkillable, unstopable monstrocity picking a fight with someone who just picked up the game. the dificulty spike might not be as severe as ultra necrozma, but if you made it to ultra necrozma, you at least have an understanding of how to play the game.
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Whitney is the third leader with a lot of places outside of her gym to Grind ;)
Your first point is valid, my bad. Your second point is invalid, because you should not have to grind.
No I mean, you can grind if you need it. I've never need it even if she's tough of course ! Starmie was harder for in Gen 1
Am I the only one here who unironically really likes the Whitney battle? The difficulty spike isn’t quite as bad as some make it out to be- Miltank’s Rollout is noticeably less problematic for Bayleef and Croconaw teams than it is for Quilava teams, for instance- and it does a pretty good job teaching the player that additional team strategy and planning may be required for harder battles compared to the first two Gyms where you can generally get by spamming your super-effective STAB with little effort.
Thematically is where I think this battle is strongest, though. Think about it for a second- imagine you’re playing through Johto for the very first time again. You’re coming off of the first two Gyms and a rival fight in Azalea, only to be greeted with this random “pretty girl” Gym Leader who specializes in what, up to this point is probably the most bland and vanilla Type in the game and stays in a Gym whose puzzle is just to navigate a Clefairy-shaped maze. To some extent, it’s almost like the game wants you to take her for granted, and brush her off as another easy early-game Gym battle… only to come across this random, unintimidating cow Pokémon you’ve never seen before that ends up sweeping at least half of your team. This how you teach generations of children a lesson to not underestimate a weak-looking opponent and such a “vanilla” Pokémon type.
Thematically is where I think this battle is strongest, though. Think about it for a second- imagine you’re playing through Johto for the very first time again. You’re coming off of the first two Gyms and a rival fight in Azalea, only to be greeted with this random “pretty girl” Gym Leader who specializes in what, up to this point is probably the most bland and vanilla Type in the game and stays in a Gym whose puzzle is just to navigate a Clefairy-shaped maze. To some extent, it’s almost like the game wants you to take her for granted, and brush her off as another easy early-game Gym battle… only to come across this random, unintimidating cow Pokémon you’ve never seen before that ends up sweeping at least half of your team. This how you teach generations of children a lesson to not underestimate a weak-looking opponent and such a “vanilla” Pokémon type.
Too bad after you beat her she starts crying like an infant, to the point you almost don't even get the badge. Like, seriously, it's been a LOOONNNGGG time since I've played HGSS, but I'm pretty sure after you beat her she doesn't give you the badge no matter how many times you try to talk to her and what you're supposed to do is try to leave the gym until the guy at the entrance stops you because you haven't gotten your badge yet and then go back and talk to her to get it. ... Are you kidding me? Seriously, I know that it may not seem that bad, especially since it takes no more than a minute, and Clair's situation is WAY worse, but the fact that even happens in the first place is beyond stupid. You're a Gym Leader for crying out loud, why are you acting like such a spoiled brat. At the very least they didn't carry that aspect of her over to the anime.