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is Lowkey cracked rn and super dumb, I’d have given it a 2 at least.
i find it ironic how you say Roaring Moon is a skill check and rate it a 2, but then you rank Zamazenta and Gargnacl at 5 as if they should be quick banned right away. If anything those mons are skill checks as well.
Some users believe the ban crowd for Tera is larger than it appears. But they believe a good amount in the ban crowd don’t want a complete ban, just a limitation. By the survey saying, should Tera be banned. Yes / No, these users believe this makes many players who would like action but oppose a complete ban uncertain of what to pick. Since they don’t want a complete ban, they pick no, messing up the true numbers.
There is also literally a question about tera restrication, which fills the quota for that sort of question. I kinda don't like how people are implying that it is more limiting than it is, you can simply say you want a tera restriction.
Interesting. I find Roaring Moon to be a strong mon that is competitively fine. Zama and Garganacl in my opinion are NOT competitively healthy for the tier for different reasons. Zama is a matchup merchant that runs the table vs. HO builds on team preview. Garganacl is a toxic progress-maker with only two obscure methods of counterplay. I simply do not believe that something has to sweep you 6-0 to be overall bad for the tier.
Zama has extreme 4mss, it has to fit in bp, crunch, heavy slam, ice fang and stone edge, with all of them hitting important targets. This is excarebated even further if it wants to run utility moves, such as id, roar or even rest (seen it once). Plus, it is weaker on the special side (though it still is plenty bulky). A top mon for sure, but has exploitable weaknesses that can be taken advantage of. If your struggling, your teams will lose to a lot else or you have only physical attackers. That's the teams zama thrives against.
I sympathize with your sentiment but I find Garg infinitely easier to play around. Encore, taunt, roar. My pocket counter to garg is simply a mouse family that can set up on it and encore stall it it on recover/def up/etc. It's pretty free alot of the time, can it run away with games at times? yeah, but I find it to be more worse than whatever slow bulky booster there is that isn't a dragon. Dragonite feels like a superiorly scarier version of Garg to me
Have answers for both of them or find counter-play to them. This can be Encore, Taunt, Trick, etc. Heavy special offensive pressure also limits them. If your consistently losing to Garg and Zama I think its time to reassess your teambuilding/structures.
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Huh? Why are you assuming there are consistent losses to Garg and Zama? I said they are not competitively healthy for certain reasons. Same as Gholdengo and Gliscor. I thought I explained that this has more to do with certain startegies being toxic and matchupy than "omg this mon is unbeatable."
Just because Gamefreak wants things to be as offensive as possible doesn't mean Smogon should follow suit when the VGC meta is complete dogshit due to a lack of bans. It is simply wrong to suggest that any attempt to make the tier less offensive is doomed when there are quite clearly bans that improved the meta, like with Archaludon and soon to be Gouging Fire. Smogon should be looking to balance the meta instead of keeping the meta unplayable like it is in VGC.
This is a really weird and kinda poor summary of Garg. For one thing, 100/130/90 bulk is exceptional for a defensive pokemon, well above average and not commonly seen on many pokemon. Gliscor also does not counter Garg. It's a great check, but Salt Cure cuts off Poison Heal recovery and if Garg is a boosting variety and Gliscor lacks knock off, it can't even bother Garg who can just set up on it and break through. You need strong SE hits to actually "decimate" it as otherwise it can heal off damage quickly and its special bulk, especially invested, lets it be used on both sides of the defensive spectrum very effectively. It only NEEDS Salt Cure and Recover, and beyond that has freedom to run any other two moves it wants and how it can fit them effectively. And no it doesn't remotely need stealth rock.
Why can't you say "I want a suspect to help me decide?"
What could your team have done vs waterpon other than "turn dachsbun grass?"
The needing rocks was incorrect, you are right. However, rocks does mean it always has some utility in battle. 100/130/90 is great bulk, but in this meta it isn't enough to get over that typing. If it had even, say, electric typing, it would be banworthy. That means if you truly want to wall a lot of things, you have to tera. Water, grass, fighting, ground and steel types all hit it super effectively. That's not really the best, when in return you have a normal, fire, poison and flying resistances, which are not exactly the bad types to resist, but not when compared to resistances. Gliscor does counter garg as if it isn't boosting, then it gets knocked off and chipped constantly. You switch out once or twice to regain toxic heal, and boom. Gliscor counters it. Something may have to take a hit, but that most likely won't be much. Is garg great? Yes, but its inherent weaknesses make it destined to not be broken in this meta. Heck, I've used a dondozo to beat a boosting variant because unaware ignores its boosts, so even a mon it should beat can deal with it.
Then that's what the "I want a tera restriction" is for. When something is being done about tera, it will be suspected, if it doesn't then people would riot. Unlike sleep, this is less multi-faceted between tiering policy and gameplay. There is also a section that says "anything else?". That inherently means people can complain there about it, I just think that those two options cover a broad amount of topics.
Where is the destroying when Zama ohkos with body press? Due to the aforementioned setup reliance they're less likely to immediately click acrobatics twice so you're getting Zama in and getting the kill, and unless spikes are allowed to remain up and Zama isn't boots (the most common held item) you have a 95% chance of no 2hko so that calc is a joke. Also every Pokémon you mentioned "but roaring moon can do big damage to them" waterpon eats for breakfast so idk what you're on about
is that actually what it's about, because over 50% of the playerbase has said yes every single time to the "I want a Tera restriction" question and no suspect has been done because "only a third of the playerbase demands a full ban right now"
Fair enough. And I agree these mons have some unhealthy components to them but imo are not banworthy. I would deem them more as strong/annoying mons instead.
The calc is literally for non-set up moon. With NO set-up, it can 2hit ko zama. Also, if we are going to use HDB, there is a 59% chance for it to 2hit ko zama. If they decide to id on the second turn, then they survive but are at like 10% hp, so they will be basically dead. If you think waterpon is broken, fine, but moon can do the exact same things waterpon can. The difference between them is moon can boost its speed and is faster, while ogerpon can come in multiple times. I think the speed and boosting is more potent, but hey, you do you.
This is just incorrect.
'It's power isn't game breaking before a DD'
Quiver Dance is significantly better than Dragon Dance. If Roaring Moon were augmenting its bulk with the physical equivalent Victory Dance, we aren’t even having this conversation because it would be banned already.
How are you going to use 97.5 BP knock off 3 times? The answer also lies, in addition to cudgel and whip inherently being stronger than knock, with the STAB perfect offensive coverage Ogerpon has, acrobatics does not receive STAB without Tera, which is not the case with ogerpon's threatening STAB moves, especially given that cudgel has a high crit rate and, unlike roaring moon's main attacks (item-dependent-on-power knock off and non stab acrobatics) does not make contact. Another way of saying this is that roaring moon, through inferior offensive types and moves, is far easier to switch into than wellspring. This "immediate power" of roaring moon also, in addition to relying on the power boosted knock off, relies on booster energy being intact, a limitation wellspring does not need to worry about.
