Resource VGC 2018 Viability Rankings

Your first sentence is wrong since Shiftry has been played with Groudon in VGC16 (as a nice anti-meta pokemon), and that we now have two viable Drought user.

I still believe it's a better supporter than Venusaur, mainly because of how reliable Fake Out is compared to Sleep Powder, plus the acces to Snarl, Tailwind, Focus Blast to deal with Tyranitar... Fake Out into Tailwind shouldn't be underestimated. Offensively, while Leaf Storm still does a decent job, other do indeed a better job. It can though also be played Physical with Leaf Blade and Knock Off, depending on what you need, its Atk is actually better than his SpA. It has enough options to make it playable in my opinion.

It's not meta-defining at all, but somewhere in the C-tier ?
Has been played in VGC16 at some point? Yes. Good? No. We're talking low C tier in a format that was centrallized heavily on top picks thanks to an immense power disparity. And that's ignoring the fact that VGC16 viability is irrelevant to a discussion of an entirely different format.

If you need Fake Out and Tailwind there are far more useful Pokemon these tools can be used with so that you don't have to stoop down to Shiftry's level; those moves do not have such poor distribution as to make Pokemon like these desirable. Stick Scrafty or Hitmontop on a team with Tailwind Mega Charizard Y and you've accomplished almost the same thing. Lets cover the other moves you listed:

  • Snarl: A defensive tool not suitable for a fast and frail Chlorophyll abuser like Shiftry
  • Focus Blast: A highly inaccurate move that isn't powerful enough to OHKO the big threats to sun teams you'd usually use a Fighting move for such as Mega Kangaskhan, Tyranitar, Heatran etc... thanks to Shiftry's low Special Attack.
  • Leaf Storm: Usable by almost every Grass-type, and Venusaur's is more powerful.
  • Physical Attacking: Special sets are almost always preferred for fast attackers given the option due to physical sets being highly vulnerable to tools such as Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp. Despite this, Shiftry would still need stronger moves than just Leaf Blade and Knock Off to deal significant damage to foes given its average Attack stat.

Your team will almost always be improved by reworking it to include the neccesary tools Shiftry can utilise elsewhere and removing it from your team.
 
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We have 2 viable Drought user? Unless Volcarona gets Drought like I wish it had, Charizard is the only Drought user worth using. Kanto Ninetales' time has come and gone after Gen V.
 

Celestavian

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Tapu Koko: I feel like this should move down to A. Landorus single-handedly prevents it from being A+ imo, being unable to KO even glass Lando without LO and HP Ice. The slower Tapus also have the problem of depriving Koko of its much needed power if they end up on the field at the same time, which happens fairly often. It's still really strong and Electrium Z sets get plenty of KOs but when you have to tiptoe around a super common Pokemon so much it feels hard to use.

Cresselia: Cress should be A+. Even though Z-Moves now let you consistently OHKO it with certain Pokemon, it's still the premier defensive Pokemon in the metagame and something you have to prep for as much as Landorus in order to not get walled. There's also the CM set which punishes you for ignoring Cress and makes Aegislash not OHKO with Ghostium Z. Now that megas have been nerfed it takes less sustained damage from the likes of Kang and Mence as well, especially after Intimidate.

Everything else I kinda think is fine where it is. Arguably Ferrothorn could go up to A, but I think I'm kinda biased in favor of it :heart:
 
Your first sentence is wrong since Shiftry has been played with Groudon in VGC16 (as a nice anti-meta pokemon), and that we now have two viable Drought user.

I still believe it's a better supporter than Venusaur, mainly because of how reliable Fake Out is compared to Sleep Powder, plus the acces to Snarl, Tailwind, Focus Blast to deal with Tyranitar... Fake Out into Tailwind shouldn't be underestimated. Offensively, while Leaf Storm still does a decent job, other do indeed a better job. It can though also be played Physical with Leaf Blade and Knock Off, depending on what you need, its Atk is actually better than his SpA. It has enough options to make it playable in my opinion.

It's not meta-defining at all, but somewhere in the C-tier ?
I think your Shiftry is trying to achieve too much. It can't be both a specially attacking Sun sweeper and a support mon at the same time. If you want Fake Out and Snarl support I honestly think a bulky Alolan Persian set is better at doing that job. And if you want a special sun sweeper then you need to look at Venusaur, Victreebel, Lilligant....
 
I was just listing moves, that's not what I play. I personally run him with Fake Out and Fling, because my team is a Sun/TR and I need to set-up. He's the best I found for that (fastest user under the Sun). It's powerful with Charizard-Y, while Leaf Storm does the job against most water (killing Rotom-Wash for example). For the last one, many things are interesting, like Tailwind or even Whirlwind, As I said he's not meta-defining, but he's definitely Liligant-level. Playable under the sun.
 
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Pyritie

TAMAGO
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Ranking Update
Mega Charizard Y: A -> A+
Cresselia: A -> A+
Mega Kangaskhan: A -> A+
Tapu Koko: A+ -> A
Mega Metagross: A- -> A
Mega Salamence: A+ -> A
Venusaur: UR -> B for now

Let's talk about
The B+ rank is now open to discussion. Let's talk about where things in B+ should go or what could move into B+. You can continue talking about the A ranks as well if you want.

For quick reference, here are the current B+ mons:
 
B+ -> B, preferably even B-. While it got a few new options, most notable being the 50% berries, I feel like Milotic got way worse overall and definitely should drop from B+. We got Tapu Fini, which is just much more useful mon in practically every situation except when you need the Recover or when you have the intimidate boost. There is also still bunch of other water mons to compete with; Id argue that Suicune is actually more useful with Snarl and Tailwind, and its on lower rank. And if you just want a fatass Poke that just don't die, Cresselia is better at that. And lets be honest, as Milotic wants to have quite a lot of bulk investment, it actually isn't even amazingly powerful with +2 on, especially considering the power level is just higher than before. It also has new counters in form of Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu that just outright obliterate it, and some Z-moves are also capable of oneshotting it. It just doesn't bring enough support nor enough utility nor enough offensive power. It is just situnational, and in more offensive meta like this, it feels like the Milotic is just not that good, as much as like the Pokemon.

B+ -> B. Tapu Lele is already a big enough reason to shit on it's viability, because now it cannot spam Aqua Jet with CB and BD set is also pretty screwed unless its in Trick Room. There also are more fairies than ever, so everyone and their mother will have coverage moves to crap on this. And just like with Milotic, Bulu and Koko also completely shit on this. Unlike with Milotic, I haven't really experienced with this in 2018 or with this mon in general, but I think the Lele alone is good enough reason to drop it to at least B. I would see it being dropped to B- and I wouldn't mind, but I cannot be as sure as with Milotic.
 
Cresselia, in a meta full of Taunt users, Hydreigons, Bisharps, etc. is not fit for A+ Rank. While it is a fantastic support mon, it can be quite literally a sitting duck. It fails to OHKO Mega Salamence and Landorus, which is something that Cresselia's common allies such as Heatran rely on. Cresselia can simply be overwhelmed in this current meta, and while I do think it is an incredible Pokemon, I think it should be A- at most.
 
Rotom-W should actually be B or even B- with misty surge everywhere and the burn nerf it isn’t thag viable anymore. Its still huge to check the most common mega pokemon (kinda) but it still loses to mega metagross + lele. Against chalk its not that good anymore. It is kinda good against rain + sand teams but thats it. Would put it to B rank because it can check the two weather archetype teams pretty good. But thats it. Hydro isnt reliable and its still kinda weak with no actual recovery. The 50% berry is a nice addition for rotom-w but everyone starts running knock off because of those berry. So it still hasn’t that recovery that it needs to be B+.

Cresselia, in a meta full of Taunt users, Hydreigons, Bisharps, etc. is not fit for A+ Rank. While it is a fantastic support mon, it can be quite literally a sitting duck. It fails to OHKO Mega Salamence and Landorus, which is something that Cresselia's common allies such as Heatran rely on. Cresselia can simply be overwhelmed in this current meta, and while I do think it is an incredible Pokemon, I think it should be A- at most.
Modest Cresselia (which is pretty common) 0hkoes landorus and Salamence. And taunt isnt a way to stop cresselia. They could have Z-Trick room and you wouldve give cresselia a free TR with doing no damage. Hydreigon isnt a way to stop cresselia either. It completely walled by Tapu-Fini and remember, its doubles! Ttar isnt a way to stop cresselia either. With intimidate, Z-Crunch does just over 75% which means you could activate the 50% berry for doing 25% in return for your Z move. And if cresselia is lead with landorus, you have to cover the superpower option on (AV) Landorus too. See? There are soooooo many ways to stop cresselia but they could go all wrong. Thats the reason why its so viable. It can support the team pretty well + it does a good amount of damage. Cresselia is really good in the A+ spot bro.
 
B+ -> B. Tapu Lele is already a big enough reason to shit on it's viability, because now it cannot spam Aqua Jet with CB and BD set is also pretty screwed unless its in Trick Room. There also are more fairies than ever, so everyone and their mother will have coverage moves to crap on this. And just like with Milotic, Bulu and Koko also completely shit on this. Unlike with Milotic, I haven't really experienced with this in 2018 or with this mon in general, but I think the Lele alone is good enough reason to drop it to at least B. I would see it being dropped to B- and I wouldn't mind, but I cannot be as sure as with Milotic.
I agree, while still powerful if your opponent doesn't have a good answer, it has too many counters in this meta. I have been trying it out as an anti rain pick. It does fairly well, if you get a chance to set up which is really easy with Z-Belly Drum, it one shots mega swampert with any of it's moves and only takes 50% on a max damage waterfall, and doesn't worry about earthquake if you have wide guard support. Even without setup, liiquidation is a guaranteed 2HKO in or out of rain and again, lives through earthquake with wide guard support. Waterfall has 0% chance of 3HKO on it which is exactly what you want for revenge killing.

So, if you have trouble dealing with rain, it's not a bad counterpick if your team can support it or needs a fairy.
 

Celestavian

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Expanding on the "it's doubles" topic, I don't think Milotic should drop below B. It does have trouble with Z moves and some of the new Tapus, but at the same time, Milotic's partner can make all the difference. You can easily pair it with Scarf Landorus for Tapu Koko, or Mega Salamence for Bulu, or any other physical attacker for whatever else Milotic struggles against. In return, Milotic makes Intimidate less appealing to counter that, especially with the threat of Adrenaline Orb being an item it can run. It is by no means a flawless strategy, or even a particularly good one, but it does make teams with 2 or more Intimidate users sweat, which is not an uncommon team archetype.

As for some of the other B+ mons:

Stakataka: B. New toy syndrome is starting to wear off, and although it can be strong in TR, there are a ton of Intimidate users out there that make its life extremely hard. In particular, there are 4 Ground- or Fighting-type Intimidate users that I consider usable in the metagame (Japan found a way to make Krookodile work...), along with other viable users such as Arcanine, Salamence, Mawile, Mega-Manectric. The latter 4 may or may not want to stay in on it, but Intimidating it and switching out is generally enough to neuter Stakataka. Gyro Ball hits hard for sure, but there are plenty of other TR attackers out there it can't hit and Rock Slide is not enough damage on them in my opinion.

Azumarill: B or B-. New gen 7 mechanics mean that Psychic Terrain is a real threat, removing the Aqua Jet that makes a +6 Azu actually threatening. Z-Moves compromise its bulk, which it needs to set up and live to deal damage. Just in case Azumarill wanted to use Huge Power boosted Z-moves itself, Araquanid does that better with the exception of Fairium since it has the same double damage (on Water moves) with a higher Attack stat. 50% berries seem nice, but it has the problem of being unable to use Belly Drum or heal between 26%-50% if it runs them, which is not a good thing at all.

Amoonguss: B+. I'm kinda not feeling Amoonguss this gen. It has the same threats to it as it did in VGC15, but a lot of new ones as well. Z-Moves give Pokemon that otherwise struggled with it, such as Landorus and Gyarados, a way to knock it out with or without chip damage. Two terrains set by two common Pokemon block Spore, upon which a large amount of Amoonguss's viability hinges upon. Redirection is still broken, and redirecting Z-moves away from its partners is pretty nice. Tapu Bulu exists now as well, and while they do totally different things I would generally choose that or Ferrothorn if I needed some Grass-type resists to put on my team.

Rotom-W: B. Like fatihmatih said above the gen 7 changes weren't kind to it either. Burn is far less stupid now that it deals half its original damage, and Misty Terrain blocking it doesn't help either. I've seen some Waterium Z sets on the ladder, but I'm not particularly a fan since Rotom-W is pretty weak.
 
I would personally put Kartana to B+ tbh. Ofc its outclassed by many other steel types. But the more the usage from curse lax raises the more viable is sacred sword from kartana. It still does a good amount of damage at all. With Sacred sword + Leaf blade it can run over CHALK by itself kinda. The fact that it has 2 hard counters, which are one of the most common pokemon in the meta (Zapdos and Argislash) makes me belive that itll never be better than B+ but like I said, its still very good. Needs just more support.
 
Any thoughts on Mega Garde? I personally find it to be a little underestimated when compared to Lele. I mean its Pros are...

Two forms of Speed Control (Trick Room and Icy Wind); neither of which Lele has access to
Not Reliant on Terrain
Loads of support options like Disable, Encore, Will-O-Wisp, etc. (none of which Lele has)
Hyper Voice, despite the nerf, is still a great spread move that bypasses Subs, and unlike Sylveon it doesn't need to completely rely on it.
Has a good speed tier as well as a massive Special Attack and Special Defense stat

Of course, its Cons are...
Uses up a Mega slot
Can't hold an item
Lele's ability is better
Worse physical bulk

I'm not exactly pro enough to issue what rank Mega Garde stands in, but I figure I'd point out some info.
 
I think Mega Garde is fine in B+. Yes its still a very strong attacker and has a very good sp def but it is outclassed by any other „big“ mega like metagross charizard kang and mence. Especially in the gen7 where metagross is so common due to lele + mega speed changes. And you have a better psychic/fairy type which doesnt eat your mega slot? (I dunno we can discuss about this I guess. Some people would say it isnt better and other would say it is better. Its tough to say)
 
Lele is better than Mega Gardevoir thanks to its ability and flexible item choice. Mega Gardevoir will always get kicked around by Mega Salamence without neutral speed control, while Lele may surprise it with bulk or scarf. Lele also helps its partner Tailwind up, so Gardevoir's speed control advantage isn't that far ahead.
 
Trick room garde with landorus-t and amoonguss is still good. And i dont agree with the abilitys. If you can play yourself in a situation where you get a free you hyper voice off its over. And after the wg patch itll be more viable. Lele without its terrain is just ridiculously bad. You can change the terrain immediately too. Lele is just better because it can change its item and it helps metagross a lot to nuke everything.
 
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Lele is better than Mega Gardevoir thanks to its ability and flexible item choice. Mega Gardevoir will always get kicked around by Mega Salamence without neutral speed control, while Lele may surprise it with bulk or scarf. Lele also helps its partner Tailwind up, so Gardevoir's speed control advantage isn't that far ahead.
I disagree with this considering most Salamence are specially mixed and tend to forgo their Atk stat. Here's a defense calc of my Mega Garde spread vs Double-Edge on specially based mixed M-Mence.

4 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 92 HP / 124 Def Mega Gardevoir: 135-159 (87 - 102.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

If you go bulkier, Double-Edge becomes a 2HKO unless they invest more into attack. Of course, with Intimidate users like Lando-T being very dominate as always Mega Salamence still falls short.

-1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 92 HP / 124 Def Mega Gardevoir: 117-138 (75.4 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And as I posted before M-Garde has a lot of support/status moves, some of which can't be stopped by Fini. I played around with Disable a lot and it's quite effective at either forcing switches or making your opponent lose their key move (like Gyro Ball).
 
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