Metagame USUM Memetagame Discussion was a mistake

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I've been trying out CB Adamant Kommo-o and it's actually surprisingly strong and effective. You demolish Ferro/Steela cores, but Cele/Lando/Pex gives this thing headaches. Its ability to bring in Fairies ans 2HKO most of them with banded Poison Jab is important for sweepers like Ash-Gren to sweep later in the game.
What more interesting is its bulk and comfortable number of resistances, being able to come in on a number of mons like Tran, Ferro, Steela, Zone, Kart, Bulu and Specs Gren if it's not yet Ash to name a few.
Moreover, it walls Blacephalon almost completely, along with other mons locked into projectile-based moves like Shadow Ball and Focus Blast for example, which is rather interesing for bulkier offensive teams. I've used this team to test this particular set and has been putting in an interesting amount of work, being able to support both Lele and Gren rather nicely. Are out there better options? Maybe, probably, but I believe CB to be a really interesting and yet unexplored option for the Scaly Pokémon with its newfound moves.
I'll be trying EBelt out too and report my experience.
 

Finchinator

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What do buys think about:

UB-Burst@Scarf
Modest
252 Spe / 252 Spa / 6 SpD
- Overheat
- Shadow Ball
- Psychic/Psyshock/Trick?
- Flamethrower
?

Per kill with Overheat you lose only one point in Special attack. You don't get worn down as fast like with Mind Blown and it is more likely to hit than Fire Blast. Flamethrower could be used to pick on weakened foes to pick up quickly on Special attack boosts with Beast Boost. Or you can just run Fire Blast regardless in the last slot too.
Fire Blast is simply more reliable when it comes to cleaning out teams. Overheat is probably viable as an alternative in the 4th slot, but nothing more than that, in my opinion. Also, Blacephalon should always be running Timid nature on every set given its Speed tier. Finally, Knock Off and Explosion are also options, for utility and revenge killing Volcarona respectively.

I've been trying out CB Adamant Kommo-o and it's actually surprisingly strong and effective. You demolish Ferro/Steela cores, but Cele/Lando/Pex gives this thing headaches. Its ability to bring in Fairies ans 2HKO most of them with banded Poison Jab is important for sweepers like Ash-Gren to sweep later in the game.
What more interesting is its bulk and comfortable number of resistances, being able to come in on a number of mons like Tran, Ferro, Steela, Zone, Kart, Bulu and Specs Gren if it's not yet Ash to name a few.
Moreover, it walls Blacephalon almost completely, along with other mons locked into projectile-based moves like Shadow Ball and Focus Blast for example, which is rather interesing for bulkier offensive teams. I've used this team to test this particular set and has been putting in an interesting amount of work, being able to support both Lele and Gren rather nicely. Are out there better options? Maybe, probably, but I believe CB to be a really interesting and yet unexplored option for the Scaly Pokémon with its newfound moves.
I'll be trying EBelt out too and report my experience.
I think CB Kommo-O is something that 100% should not be used. First and foremost, it cannot really lock in to many moves well due to STABs being dicked by fairy types and locking in to PJab being shaky at best. I feel like there are numerous better Choice users or strong physical attackers that fulfill a similar niche, but more effectively -- just to name a few off the top of my head: CB Zygarde, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, Mega Charizard-X, and even Mega Garchomp. Having only 110 Attack and 85 Speed while struggling to lock in to a move in most situations leaves Kommo-O far from desirable in this role.

The only potentially viable Kommo-O set would be with the new custom Z move and even that seems to be a shaky prospect, but let's keep in mind that we really should not try to have this thread revolve around Pokemon not ranked on the VR, as discussed above, so maybe it is best not to stay on this topic and to discuss more common, prevalent Pokemon.
 
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Fire Blast is simply more reliable when it comes to cleaning out teams. Overheat is probably viable as an alternative in the 4th slot, but nothing more than that, in my opinion. Also, Blacephalon should always be running Timid nature on every set given its Speed tier. Finally, Knock Off and Explosion are also options, for utility and revenge killing Volcarona respectively.


I think CB Kommo-O is something that 100% should not be used. First and foremost, it cannot really lock in to many moves well due to STABs being dicked by fairy types and locking in to PJab being shaky at best. I feel like there are numerous better Choice users or strong physical attackers that fulfill a similar niche, but more effectively -- just to name a few off the top of my head: CB Zygarde, Mega Medicham, Mega Heracross, Mega Charizard-X, and even Mega Garchomp. Having only 110 Attack and 85 Speed while struggling to lock in to a move in most situations leaves Kommo-O far from desirable in this role.

The only potentially viable Kommo-O set would be with the new custom Z move and even that seems to be a shaky prospect, but let's keep in mind that we really should not try to have this thread revolve around Pokemon not ranked on the VR, as discussed above, so maybe it is best not to stay on this topic and to discuss more common, prevalent Pokemon.
What about Belly Drum + Salac Berry? On paper at least, this seems like a really viable set for the fighting dragon pseudo-legendary. It would fall to priority moves, but it's quite bulky, and the rise of Blacephalon has made threats such as Weavile and Mamoswine less viable.
 
What about Belly Drum + Salac Berry? On paper at least, this seems like a really viable set for the fighting dragon pseudo-legendary. It would fall to priority moves, but it's quite bulky, and the rise of Blacephalon has made threats such as Weavile and Mamoswine less viable.
What would u even use on that set sub/bd/drain p/???, either way ur gonna be walled by atleast 1 or more relevant Pokemon
 

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It gets revenge killed by every relevant Scarf user in the tier and it still lacks necessary coverage. Please stop discussing Kommo-O.

I spoke about it previously in the SQSA thread and I will drop that here once again:
Alternative: don't use Kommo-O in OU because it will never be close to as good as it is in lower tiers (specifically RU, where the Z crystal for it just got banned). Kommo-O has a few glaring, fundamental flaws that will prevent it from ever being good in OU this generation -- it is 4x weak to Fairy, it lacks any standout stats (110/100/85 offensive stats are blatantly underwhelming for OU and 125 defense is not as great as you would think when it only has 75 base HP and generally runs offensive sets), and it does not have anything else going for it that lets it take advantage of this Z crystal enough to make it a consistent win condition. Overall, Kommo-O probably is not even viable in the tier, let alone worth using on serious teams. I strongly urge posters to stop discussing it here and in other threads (yes, I know this is SQSA, but here's my answer to any Kommo-O related question from here on out).
 

Yung Dramps

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Diggersby @ Silk Scarf / Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Fire Punch / Quick Attack
- Swords Dance

With Sticky Webs seeing a return to prominence, everyone's favorite obese dirt rabbit may find itself a new niche. The goal with Diggersby is to get your Webs up and scare out Pokemon like Heatran, -1 Spe Blacephalon, Stakataka and Toxapex, and then set up SD right in their face. And yes, Diggersby is still as absurdly strong as ever:

+2 252 Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 248 HP / 88 Def Venusaur-Mega: 364-429 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 414-487 (147.3 - 173.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 315-372 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 195-229 (71.9 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir-Mega: 157-186 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Silk Scarf Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-Black: 468-552 (119.6 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


As stated earlier, Diggersby is designed for Sticky Webs teams, which are seeing a boost in popularity right now thanks to Araquanid. Try Diggersby out, he's pretty cool. While Quick Attack is nice, Fire Punch is an option to hit Ferrothorn, Celesteela and Skarmory.
 
Speaking of Sticky Web, around my ladder, people use Araquanid and Ribombee as leads. While I think Ribombee is quite bad option Araquanid looks okay to me. If EV'd correctly, it will do fantastic job anti-leading standard defensive Landorus-T, and Mirror Coat can catch the likes of Tapu Lele offguard (although Psyshock is quite popular). Being able to switch into Scald from the likes of Toxapex is an added bonus thanks to Water Bubble.
 
i think that people dont give tapu fini enough credit. being a fast taunter is huge and it is a super reliable defogger. i mainly think its good for its ability to break some balances with taunt+natures madness+and a combination of moonblast/scald/surf/ice beam. it can also surprise people with a calm mind set which is also a good balance breaker. its by no means amazing or anything but people should give it some respect. it also has a great ability to counter status which is amazing
 
Just letting yall know that Gen 2 Virtual Console transfer moves have been implemented on Showdown now. This doesn't really have many competitive implications but maybe someone can find a good Curse user or something.
 
Was on Showdown yesterday, in the OU lobby there was a survey asking about a Toxapex suspect test. I’m kind of on the fence here. Theres no doubt it’s the best wall in the tier, it can switch in on alot. Thoughts?
 

Leo

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Was on Showdown yesterday, in the OU lobby there was a survey asking about a Toxapex suspect test. I’m kind of on the fence here. Theres no doubt it’s the best wall in the tier, it can switch in on alot. Thoughts?
Hey, just a heads up before this thread goes wild, this isn't the place for potential suspects discussion and starting it would lead to a lot of people replying and derailing the thread, if you're wondering why the council hasn't suspected x mon or whether or not y mon is banworthy you can always PM a council member or ask in the SQSA thread.
 


Florges seems pretty slept-on as a defogger. It's as bulky as Mantine (read: VERY SpDef bulky), and walls a lot of the same Pokemon like Zard Y, Keldeo, and Specs Gren. Unlike, Mantine, it's not weak to Electric or Rock, which is pretty huge, and it can act as a cleric with Aromatherapy/Wish as nice techs.

For the downsides: it can't come in on most Rock setters, which sucks, and it doesn't learn haze, which also sucks, but it's still worth using.

Some replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-666384399
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-666350982
 
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I have found that AV Tapu Bulu is just so good right now. He has great synergy with many offensive cores while also providing good defensive utility AND an offensive presence. Sponges a lot of threats like Ash-Greninja and Nature's Madness allows him to break down things like Magearna a lot easier (which is why I prefer it over Stone Edge).
 
Speaking of Sticky Web, around my ladder, people use Araquanid and Ribombee as leads. While I think Ribombee is quite bad option Araquanid looks okay to me. If EV'd correctly, it will do fantastic job anti-leading standard defensive Landorus-T, and Mirror Coat can catch the likes of Tapu Lele offguard (although Psyshock is quite popular). Being able to switch into Scald from the likes of Toxapex is an added bonus thanks to Water Bubble.
Ribombee has a niche over Araquanid in that it can run Defog and Webs and outspeeds a whole lot of things with a base 124 and 252 Timid. It also gets Stun Spore for even more Speed control which means HO can use Ribombee as a lead to either keep hazards out or keep opponents slowed with Paralysis and Webs. On top of all this it can U-Turn away too making it even more obnoxious with it's speed control moves.
 

hs

Banned deucer.
I would like to throw in some sets I've tried messing with and seeing where they go, since I really like experimenting with Z moves

Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Move
- Wild Charge
- Brave Bird
- Taunt / Roost

Z Mirror Move gives a Swords Dance boost and copies the last used move against Koko, allowing it to break through a lot of weakened teams, and 130 is an amazing speed tier. Copied moves in addition to the boost can include whatever it switches into, provided the opponent stays in (not that this is the main draw of it, just a cool little side effect.) Z Wild Charge comes with 1 time power, but this acts more of a cleaner than a lure/breaker. While the power may seem similar to Z, this isn't a 1 time use.

+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Celesteela in Electric Terrain: 632-746 (158.7 - 187.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (kills without terrain too)
+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Electric Terrain: 385-454 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar in Electric Terrain: 373-441 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Electric Terrain: 535-631 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (recoil would be bad, but not as bad as you think)

Blacephalon @ Normalium Z / Psychium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recycle / Trick
- Shadow Ball
- Fire Blast
- Substitute / Hidden Power [Fighting]


Recycle or Trick give a +2 boost to Speed(literally makes 0 difference), similarly allowing this to become a cleaner, and a dangerous one thanks to its ability. The last move can be either Sub or HP Fighting for TTar. EVs are very customizable (I just left 252/252+ there for now) to outspeed things at +2. What's nice is this is immune or resistant to all but 1 type of priority in OU, so once Greninja is gone it's time to let it destroy things, and if you can't outspeed it, can't beat it with priority, and it's got the strength to wipe things out, well, good luck with that.

Alternate EV spreads:
Modest 40 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 212 Spe - outspeeds Sand Jolly Excadrill
Modest 120 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 132 Spe - outspeeds Scarf Greninja
Modest 128 HP / 252 SpA / 128 Spe - outspeeds +2 Landorus-T (I mean you may as well lose the 2HP to outspeed Greninja at this point...)
You forgot the fact that Blacephalon can't get HP Fighting, due to locked IVs, lol.
 
Ribombee has a niche over Araquanid in that it can run Defog and Webs and outspeeds a whole lot of things with a base 124 and 252 Timid. It also gets Stun Spore for even more Speed control which means HO can use Ribombee as a lead to either keep hazards out or keep opponents slowed with Paralysis and Webs. On top of all this it can U-Turn away too making it even more obnoxious with it's speed control moves.
Its main niche lies in the fact that it can't be flinched by fake out and that it can beat relatively well all of the magic bounce users Tanks to moonblast and HP steel
 
btw I'm not saying Ribombee is better than Araquanid overall just why people might be inclined to use it over Araquanid. Fast Web setter/speed control and can be a fast defogger (which is bad but it caught me off guard once)

Anyways I came here wondering now that Naga is gone and AV Ttar and SpDef Tran are both dropping if it is worth running M Lopunny over M Medicham. It can break Mimikyu and has a great Speed tier but I feel it is outclassed by M Medicham who has more raw power and with Webs support and a better MU vs Defensive Lando-T

Calcs:

-1 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 292-344 (76.4 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 180-216 (47.1 - 56.5%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also STAB Zen Headbutt hits Toxa real well which M Lopunny cannot do.
 
Mega Lopunny is fantastic against offense though with that Speed Tier (you can even run Quick Attack over PuP or Fake Out), while Mega Medicham has trouble on that end unless you're running dual priority or something, and even then non-STAB/Technician Bullet Punch is lackluster.
 
So, if this hasn't been discussed yet (I kinda doubt it but anyway), now that Koko has access to Thunder Punch, is a physical set on him viable?
 

Colonel M

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So, if this hasn't been discussed yet (I kinda doubt it but anyway), now that Koko has access to Thunder Punch, is a physical set on him viable?
The biggest issue with physical Koko is that it lacks effective coverage moves alonside its STAB. Brave Bird is all it really has alongside U-turn. You definitely could do worse than physical Koko, but special sets such as Specs still reign supreme. Physical sets have always had some viability even before - physical Koko was pretty good at luring mons such as Chansey with Z Wild Charge.


That being said Scarf Physical Koko is used since BB helps it check Volcarona while still being a fast Defogger.
 

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YanVictor95 BladeofFriendship -- no, that's not the Physical Tapu Koko set. Brave Bird is hardly ever ran outside of some Choice Scarf variants on the ladder during mid-SM. Generally, the best set would be Z-Wild Charge, HP Ice, Roost, and U-turn with 252 attack, 4 special attack, and 252 speed (+speed -def or -sdef). That set was very common during the summertime, giving stall teams a bit of a headahce and maintaining a decent level of longevity and momentum pushing with the help of Roost and U-turn, respectively. As for Scarf Tapu Koko, it is pretty shit, but it would run Wild Charge, HP Ice, Defog, and U-turn -- no need for Brave Bird on either set when Tangrowth is dying down, it does not really do enough to Mega Venusaur, and HP Ice coverage is essentially necessary (no need for GK either, but that goes for 95% of Tapu Koko in general even when considering specially based sets).
 
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