Resource USUM Doubles OU Viability Rankings (Updated 11/16 on post #293)

Psychic Terrain also locks moves with increased priority due to Prankster, so that shouldn't impact your opinion on Tsareena by itself. The biggest difference is that Queenly Majesty doesn't force your Pokemon to be grounded to have priority immunity, as well as opening up the door to use different Terrains simultaneously.
Now that I thing about it, when they used prankster on me while on psiquic terrain, the bearer of the move was thundorus, so it makes sense now. Tsareena is still a solid mon though, and it's still a nice added bonus.
 
I wrote a lot of things on the discord channel about interpreting statistics, but I really want to share this on the forums too because this really irks me when people get it wrong.

1. Statistical Significance.

Holy shit this one bugs me a lot. When you write out [37.5% out of 8 games] you might be fooled into actually thinking its significant because 37.5% winrate is absolutely terrible if you're 1. looking at a player, 2. looking at any extended number of games. but the reality is that it's just 3 wins 5 losses. 1 hax turning 1 win into 1 loss is going to turn an average winrate Pokemon to a "below 40% winrate" Pokemon. And because a Game of Pokemon can be flipped on 10% chances, 1 out of 8 games being solely decided by luck is nowhere near farfetch'd. If I hear someone else using this to talk about how a Pokemon with 3 wins 5 losses is significantly worse than a Pokemon with 4 wins 4 losses, you're probably the type of person who thinks when you flip a coin you if you get a head turn 1 then you should get tails turn 2 because it must be what 50% odds means - and I'm ignoring you immediately.

This applies less when you 1. look at a lot of different tournaments in total, so the sample size is bigger, 2. a Pokemon is as popular as Mega Metagross and gets 50-60 usage in 1 tournament. Yeah a lot of different tours will have their different intricacies, but honestly it's the best we can do.

2. Correlation does not imply Causation

LDM also brought this up, where he wondered if certain Pokemon were getting high winrates because they were good Pokemon, or because they were OK Pokemon, but being used by great players (i.e. Mega Heracross). And honestly, he's absolutely right! Stats can spot a correlation (Indeed, there is reasonable suspicion that bringing Mega Metagross is correlated with increased odds of losing - not the standard 90 / 95% confidence, but 80% is good enough when it comes to things like this) - but interpreting it is left up to the person by looking at the details. Is Metagross doing bad because people keep forcing it on teams where it doesn't work as well? Is it doing bad because it's actually bad and making people lose? Is it doing bad because most beginner players use a Mega Metagross team? Who knows?

This is why stats must be backed up by evidence / solid reasoning to be complete. One way to interpret it that I like, is that some Pokemon that are significantly correlated to losing aren't all that horrible, but just worse than what People think, so are either put on teams where it doesn't get enough support to succeed, or people have a tendency to bin teams that have poor matchup, because of it being so common, so the conclusion is not people should stop using it, but use it less / more selectively and see how it goes from there.

I'm not saying that we need to ignore stats altogether - it's really some of the few things that are available to us, and we should take advantage of it whenever possible. But I'm just saying that you can definitely get something out of stats without having to make something out of nothing.
I want to respond to this to argue that the nominations I make deal with these claims. The basic thing I want to get at was that my nominations were only on Pokémon with 25% winrate or lower, with the exception of tapu fini which has the usage to back up its 35% and a tier that is more demanding. I like to reference stats a lot in my posts, but I think they can be reasonably indicative of where everyone is at a given moment.
Basically, these mons went 3-9, not 3-5, and that says a lot, or they went 0-1 or smth, when their tier implies more people should use them.

speaking of, aegislash to 5
 
I want to respond to this to argue that the nominations I make deal with these claims. The basic thing I want to get at was that my nominations were only on Pokémon with 25% winrate or lower, with the exception of tapu fini which has the usage to back up its 35% and a tier that is more demanding. I like to reference stats a lot in my posts, but I think they can be reasonably indicative of where everyone is at a given moment.
Basically, these mons went 3-9, not 3-5, and that says a lot, or they went 0-1 or smth, when their tier implies more people should use them.

speaking of, aegislash to 5
I’ll disagree with aegi to 5. The sub toxic set is still really annoying and one of the only mons that can pretty much just toxic stall. Also hits reasonably hard and kings shield.
 

talkingtree

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With Sword and Shield release coming up soon, I'm just about to send off the last slate. Get your noms in while you can!
 

DaWoblefet

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Nominating Durant to tier 5'.
Pokemon that serve a specific role and that can only perform effectively on certain teams, often with heavy support required.
:sm/durant:

Durant's niche is solely on Gothitelle trapping teams, taking advantage of the Entrainment + Truant combination to lock down opponents for easy setup. Once a Pokemon acquires Truant, by Protecting every other turn, it is relatively straightforward to create 2v1 board states that allow for easy setup from Pokemon like Dragon Dance Zygarde. With a Choice Scarf and max Speed, Durant outpaces a good chunk of the metagame even given Speed control (e.g. Mega Swampert in rain, most bulky Zapdos in Tailwind, and all relevant Scarfers), and it has enough natural bulk to withstand most non-Fire non-Z-move attacks, potentially opening the door for locking down multiple slots. Baton Pass offers counterplay to the most accessible option, Protect, in the form of Baton Pass + secondary switching move to position Durant + Gothitelle on the following turn.

The Gothitelle Durant stat trap team is realistically the only team with Durant that has seen any success, which has seen scattered usage (e.g. SMB winning a seasonal game, me winning a live tour). I have 150 replays saved of Durant trap, apparently, but here are just a couple additional replays showcasing Durant itself:
While I obviously don't think Durant fits a wide variety of teams or strategies, its usefulness on Durant stat trap is incredibly valuable. From the opponent's perspective, board position must be evaluated every turn when playing against Durant trap, or else you could easily get locked. Getting one turn wrong will likely end the game. I find Durant to be more comparable to something like level 1 Togedemaru than something like Guard Split Blissey, and I think it does enough to warrant 5'.
 
Nominating Durant to tier 5'.

:sm/durant:

Durant's niche is solely on Gothitelle trapping teams, taking advantage of the Entrainment + Truant combination to lock down opponents for easy setup. Once a Pokemon acquires Truant, by Protecting every other turn, it is relatively straightforward to create 2v1 board states that allow for easy setup from Pokemon like Dragon Dance Zygarde. With a Choice Scarf and max Speed, Durant outpaces a good chunk of the metagame even given Speed control (e.g. Mega Swampert in rain, most bulky Zapdos in Tailwind, and all relevant Scarfers), and it has enough natural bulk to withstand most non-Fire non-Z-move attacks, potentially opening the door for locking down multiple slots. Baton Pass offers counterplay to the most accessible option, Protect, in the form of Baton Pass + secondary switching move to position Durant + Gothitelle on the following turn.

The Gothitelle Durant stat trap team is realistically the only team with Durant that has seen any success, which has seen scattered usage (e.g. SMB winning a seasonal game, me winning a live tour). I have 150 replays saved of Durant trap, apparently, but here are just a couple additional replays showcasing Durant itself:
While I obviously don't think Durant fits a wide variety of teams or strategies, its usefulness on Durant stat trap is incredibly valuable. From the opponent's perspective, board position must be evaluated every turn when playing against Durant trap, or else you could easily get locked. Getting one turn wrong will likely end the game. I find Durant to be more comparable to something like level 1 Togedemaru than something like Guard Split Blissey, and I think it does enough to warrant 5'.
No. No.

Ok so going more into detail with this... it’s sort of on the level of things like smeargle, blissey, and other crappy stuff that isn’t and shouldn’t be ranked, and is only usable in very rare circumstances... if ANYTHING we might as well just make a “meme tier” and call it a day.
 
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Nominating Durant to tier 5'.

:sm/durant:

Durant's niche is solely on Gothitelle trapping teams, taking advantage of the Entrainment + Truant combination to lock down opponents for easy setup. Once a Pokemon acquires Truant, by Protecting every other turn, it is relatively straightforward to create 2v1 board states that allow for easy setup from Pokemon like Dragon Dance Zygarde. With a Choice Scarf and max Speed, Durant outpaces a good chunk of the metagame even given Speed control (e.g. Mega Swampert in rain, most bulky Zapdos in Tailwind, and all relevant Scarfers), and it has enough natural bulk to withstand most non-Fire non-Z-move attacks, potentially opening the door for locking down multiple slots. Baton Pass offers counterplay to the most accessible option, Protect, in the form of Baton Pass + secondary switching move to position Durant + Gothitelle on the following turn.

The Gothitelle Durant stat trap team is realistically the only team with Durant that has seen any success, which has seen scattered usage (e.g. SMB winning a seasonal game, me winning a live tour). I have 150 replays saved of Durant trap, apparently, but here are just a couple additional replays showcasing Durant itself:
While I obviously don't think Durant fits a wide variety of teams or strategies, its usefulness on Durant stat trap is incredibly valuable. From the opponent's perspective, board position must be evaluated every turn when playing against Durant trap, or else you could easily get locked. Getting one turn wrong will likely end the game. I find Durant to be more comparable to something like level 1 Togedemaru than something like Guard Split Blissey, and I think it does enough to warrant 5'.
Wow, this is a very detailed review, I don't know about higher leagues, but around 1600 ELO fire type is to widespread for this to really be useful, especially after letting everybody know the strategy, and even if they don't U turn pivots who can bypass shadow tag are integral to the current meta.
 

DaWoblefet

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Wow, this is a very detailed review, I don't know about higher leagues, but around 1600 ELO fire type is to widespread for this to really be useful, especially after letting everybody know the strategy, and even if they don't U turn pivots who can bypass shadow tag are integral to the current meta.
I don't consider ELO a factor when analyzing whether or not a Pokemon is good, since I think good players can carry a bad Pokemon to whatever spot they want on the Doubles OU ladder, really. But for some support as far as "this will never work against high ladder", I've maintained top 50 on the DOU ladder for many, many months now with a fairly reasonable GXE despite the team being public. Of course you can't just Entrainment Incineroar, since it has the ability to U-turn out, but when thinking about Pokemon like Genesect or Scarf Landorus-T, they're basically obligated to use U-turn or else risk being trapped, which eases prediction. There are plenty of viable Pokemon in the metagame that don't run Protect or a switching move, and even those that do can still be pressured into Protecting on turns I would use Entrainment, which opens up the door for prediction on my side (e.g. a free setup move). Perhaps Durant's success on ladder is better indicative of ladder quality than Durant quality, and I would be inclined to agree somewhat, which is why I didn't base any of my nomination post on personal ladder success with the Durant trap team. But since you asked:
1573480068076.png
 
I don't consider ELO a factor when analyzing whether or not a Pokemon is good, since I think good players can carry a bad Pokemon to whatever spot they want on the Doubles OU ladder, really. But for some support as far as "this will never work against high ladder", I've maintained top 50 on the DOU ladder for many, many months now with a fairly reasonable GXE despite the team being public. Of course you can't just Entrainment Incineroar, since it has the ability to U-turn out, but when thinking about Pokemon like Genesect or Scarf Landorus-T, they're basically obligated to use U-turn or else risk being trapped, which eases prediction. There are plenty of viable Pokemon in the metagame that don't run Protect or a switching move, and even those that do can still be pressured into Protecting on turns I would use Entrainment, which opens up the door for prediction on my side (e.g. a free setup move). Perhaps Durant's success on ladder is better indicative of ladder quality than Durant quality, and I would be inclined to agree somewhat, which is why I didn't base any of my nomination post on personal ladder success with the Durant trap team. But since you asked:
I didn't mean that about ELO, I just said that maybe matchups are different in higher leagues of which I'm unaware. In fact I think that using weird pokemon in unespected ways is a great virtue that's very useful. Around 1600 there are tons of people running mega camerupts and flyers with heat wave who would make setting up difficult, that's all I meant in my comment.
 
Ok why don’t we actually just make a meme tier and call it a day... I’d nom blissey, Durant, smeargle, anything used at level 1 with trick room, MAYBE whims, and ofc the best electric mouse boii
Maybe this could be a new feature of the gen 8 forum, I also nominate Klingklang, it's very useless but there's this guy in ladder who I call the magnetic flux dude every time I fight against him, who uses him fairly well.
 
While playing gen 8 doubles, someone started using defog on his malamar with contrary to raise his evasion chance, I just wanted to know whether this is a violation of the no evasion move clause, and should be fixed, or if this is intended behaviour.
 

Grandmas Cookin

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Persian from UR to 4/4’
it fits the description of the the rank very accurately, with incineroar being the preferred pokemon for that slot. there are however some major cases where persian fits the role better:

mono dark typing, pokemon such as landorus-t, zygarde, fini, and metagross preying on incineroars fire typing to hit it with super effective moves that persian would only take neutral hits from (bar moonblast from fini) as well as moat of those attacks being reduced by persians fur coat ability that lets it come in on these physical attacks even better.

Parting Shot and its Z effect -quite possibly the best pivoting tool in pokemon- acting as a single target intimidate and non damaging snarl in one slot makes it not get taken advantage of by competitive and defiant users (bar them switching in on it which would be terrible) and when used in conjunction with darkinium z it becomes a one time healing wish that preserves the user for later in a battle.

Minor differences: it is one of the fastest fake out users available in gen 7 dou giving its partners ease to setup speed control of some form or dish out damage before it would have been able to be hit. access to foul play means it can turn an opponents stats into your advantage, notably surviving a +5 tarrows 100% of the time with minimal investment and ohkoing back through foul play.
A1A3D876-EED6-49EB-AF48-E3973D8D815E.jpeg


~~~will post notable replays later i am picking up my copy of shield very shortly lol~~~
 
Persian from UR to 4/4’
it fits the description of the the rank very accurately, with incineroar being the preferred pokemon for that slot. there are however some major cases where persian fits the role better:

mono dark typing, pokemon such as landorus-t, zygarde, fini, and metagross preying on incineroars fire typing to hit it with super effective moves that persian would only take neutral hits from (bar moonblast from fini) as well as moat of those attacks being reduced by persians fur coat ability that lets it come in on these physical attacks even better.

Parting Shot and its Z effect -quite possibly the best pivoting tool in pokemon- acting as a single target intimidate and non damaging snarl in one slot makes it not get taken advantage of by competitive and defiant users (bar them switching in on it which would be terrible) and when used in conjunction with darkinium z it becomes a one time healing wish that preserves the user for later in a battle.

Minor differences: it is one of the fastest fake out users available in gen 7 dou giving its partners ease to setup speed control of some form or dish out damage before it would have been able to be hit. access to foul play means it can turn an opponents stats into your advantage, notably surviving a +5 tarrows 100% of the time with minimal investment and ohkoing back through foul play.
View attachment 206651

~~~will post notable replays later i am picking up my copy of shield very shortly lol~~~
5. It’s not horrible but it’s not great. Also you forgot to mention it sorta fucks kartana too after it gets a boost
 

talkingtree

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Shift time! This is probably going to be the last shift of the generation since SwSh was just released. Thanks everyone for your input and discussion, especially recently, and I hope everyone can be similar levels of unhappy with these rankings as proof that they're a good compromise :blobwizard:

As before, votes are in chronological order, so that's why the names appear in different orders in different noms
Chansey Tier 3 → Tier 4
MajorBowman: Yes, never really supported the Chansey fad and it’s finally dying down. Chansey really isn’t *that* difficult to deal with and starts to plateau in usefulness after a few turns, 4 might even be too high for it.

Croven: Yes, hasn’t really been used and its getting easier to deal with.

Demantoid: 4. More offensive teams have been getting more popular which Chansey struggles with.

talkingtree: 4, don't have anything to add

SMB: 4, still a great support mon but it’s way more difficult for it to win games than before.

emforbes: 4, agreed with reasoning above.
Mega Manectric Tier 3 → Tier 4
MajorBowman: Yes, I genuinely think the only reason it’s stayed in 3 for so long is because stax sample is such an anomalously good team that carries Manectric pretty hard. Rocks really limit its ability to freely pivot, and it doesn’t have the offenses to just act as a fast attacker.

Croven: Yes, stax sample is the only real team that succeeds with this lmao

Demantoid: 4. Not bulky or powerful enough to do too much in the current meta.

talkingtree: 4, don't have anything to add (again)

SMB: 4, everything has been said

emforbes: 4, already explained.
Mega Latias Tier 4 → Tier 5
MajorBowman: No, I don’t think a decline in usage is a good enough reason to drop something. Mega Latias is fantastic against pretty much every Charizard team and goes somewhat neutral with most other megas not named Metagross. I think its usage drop is more indicative of a passing trend than a drop in viability.

Croven: Nah, this thing is still really good and can be a serious threat. Rise in zard usage helps this, it basically near 6-0’s all those teams anyways

Demantoid: 4. Walls a lot of common mons but doesn’t see much usage right now. Other sets than calm mind should probably be experimented with.

SMB: no, huge win condition and with a pretty positive mu vs some top tier mons like kartana, zygarde, volcanion or zard

talkingtree: 4, don't have anything to add (I wonder how many times I can write this)

emforbes: 4, no way it should drop.
Zeraora Tier 4 → Tier 5
MajorBowman: This one is tough but I think I’m gonna agree with 5, Zeraora is one of those mons that seems way better on paper than it ever is in practice. Snarl that outpaces almost the whole unboosted meta is valuable, but fast pivoting can be somewhat predictable and it has 4MSS pretty bad. That said, I think Zeraora has a place in any meta with as much Tapu Koko as SM DOU so I would never vote to drop it further than 5.

Croven: No, I tested this a bunch with Stratos in snake and it actually impressed me. On several different teams it put in a lot of work, its utility moves are great and plasma fists hits hard enough when you need it to. Stay in 4

Demantoid: 5. Don’t remember the last time I’ve seen it and never really impacted games.

SMB: 5, fast fake out and snarl are the only good things it has and that’s not enough for a tier 4 mon

talkingtree: 5 seems good now, especially with Mega Mane dropping to 4. I still like Zeraora but I have to acknowledge it probably doesn't deserve to be higher anymore.

emforbes: 5, jake put it best.
Mega Tyranitar Tier 4 → Tier 5
Croven: No, it hasnt been used much lately but it can still be perfectly good. Very bulky and can provide a lot of support between its offensive coverage, rocks, and sand

Demantoid: 4. Still has a niche in how fat it is along with its utility//coverage and sweeping potential.

talkingtree: 4, usage =/= viability -- even if that usage is extremely low and in a large tour. Teamtours like Snake and SPL are extremely susceptible to trends that don't necessarily show the state of the meta as a whole, since these trends are better used in bo1 matches (rain, kommo, etc), and the two I just mentioned as examples give ttar a tough time. So I think that's the main reason it wasn't seen much in Snake, and it still has a place in 4.

MajorBowman: Agree with everyone, still a very useful Pokemon even though its usage has failed off a bit.

emforbes: 4, tar is still great and handles a lot of scary threats in the tier. Walling some kommo-o sets is also pretty good.

SMB: i think this has just dropped to tier 4 and should stay here, ice beam, fire blast, sr set is still very valid.
Tapu Fini Tier 1 → Tier 2
MajorBowman: Definitely not, Tapu Fini was such a strong driving force of this whole metagame even though it’s pretty far from being the flashiest of Pokemon. The sheer number of options it has as a support Pokemon is nearly unmatched, and it can still be somewhat offensively threatening with a CM (or even Specs?) set. I’d be hard pressed to place Fini anywhere other than at the top as we close out gen 7.

Croven: No lol its still the best glue to a ton of teams, cm is still a good wincon, etc etc keep this in 1 its good

Demantoid: 1. Snake wasn’t good for Fini but I don’t think we should drop it because of one bad result.

talkingtree: 1. This is the one and only time I've actually considered a Fini drop with the reasons Jon gave, but I think it'd be entirely unrepresentative of the meta to have Fini anywhere but 1.

emforbes: 1, no chance this should ever happen, kommo-o, diancie and rain rising in popularity only put it in a better spot for the meta.

SMB: 1, huge win condition, can run a good amount of support sets, great defensive typing… I don’t see a reason why it should drop, I can agree it’s not as good as before but it’s a top tier mon.
Volcanion Tier 2 → Tier 3
MajorBowman: No, Volcanion is still a super strong Pokemon that can take advantage of a lot of the other popular Pokemon. A fire type that stands up to a majority of water types is super valuable, and a water type that beats all the relevant grasses is huge. The role compression that even just a basic offensive Volcanion set provides is impressive and its spot in 2 is deserved.

Croven: Nah, this thing is always so annoying to play against; its fairly physically bulky and hits like a damn truck with good coverage. Keep in 2

Demantoid: 3. Extremely difficult to fit on a well balanced team while it can struggle to impact games due to its awkward speed tier.

talkingtree: 2, what Croven said

emforbes: 2, fire water coverage is extremely tough to play against when the best water resist in the tier is walled by sub volcanion. Great mon that is just underused imo.

SMB: 2, jake nailed it
Zygarde Tier 2 → Tier 3
MajorBowman: No, we’re definitely past Zygarde’s heyday but that doesn’t mean it’s any worse than was before. Boasting a neutral and strongly positive matchup against the two main Intimidate users is a huge blessing for a physical attacker, and Thousand Arrows is just an insane attack.

Croven: No, i think bowman hit it here. Not the best mon in 2 but still good enough to stay in 2

Demantoid: 2. It can completely takeover games against unprepared teams, but it can always do something even if it’s just spamming E-Speed. DD sets also haven’t seen much usage in a while which I think could still be good.

talkingtree: 2, what Croven said (so basically what Bowman said)

emforbes: 3, I honestly don’t believe in zyg right now, I have a hard time finding positions to just click tarrows when it’s being threatened constantly. A lot of games feel like it doesn’t get as much value as expected from my experience.

SMB: 2 only because of the band set which can be really difficult to switch into if your only intimidate is incineroar. Thousand arrows resists are not very popular except on semiroom or tr teams (lurantis, araquanid, bulu…) which definitely makes it even more threateaning.
Kommo-o Tier 3 → Tier 2
MajorBowman: no.

Croven: Yes, this thing is really easy to slap onto a variety of teams and have a very good win con. Only real hard counter to this is fini, which, while a very good mon in its own right and very popular, isnt on every team, and the teams that lack fini can get seriously wrecked with very minimal chip. Move up

Demantoid: 2. Great sweeping potential that the opponent always has to respect in building and playing. Doesn’t have many negative match ups while it has tons of positive ones.

talkingtree: 3 for me. Fini and Koko are both popular threats that can dispatch of it fairly easily, and many Kommo teams become significantly less threatening if it goes down, so that can just end the game. Kommo is definitely strong, but I think having these downsides is just a bit too much for me to push it to 2.

emforbes: 3, while I think kommo-o is amazing right now, I don’t really see it as the mon being broken. I honestly feel like it’s just a matchup thing, fini usage should be higher and this mon will stop getting as many wins.

SMB: 3, I might be one of the people who has used kommo-o the most but i still don’t think it deserves a spot on tier 2. After all it’s a mu dependant mon, you can improve your chances of getting a right sweep with the aid of goth or strong steel types but I don’t feel it can work alone as well as other mons on tier 2.
Tsareena UR → Tier 5
MajorBowman: yes, see my post in the thread

Croven: Abstain

SMB: no, i just don’t think this is good enough to be ranked. Weird speed tier, weak to intimidate, single typing… Of course its ability is nice but if we want to rank mons that can only do ok sometimes we should also rank stuff like meloetta, xurkitree or hitmontop to name a few and I don’t think that’s something we should do.

talkingtree: 5. I get the point that SMB makes, but I think Tsareena's niche is stronger than just its ability, and Tsar's better than the other mons he mentioned. Bulky pivoting, helping hand, decently strong Grass STAB for rain / fini, and access to other options like HJK for Kart, Knock for berries, and Rapid Spin as Jake said in the thread are all decent options for a fourth slot.

emforbes: no, I agree with SMB. Sure it has a niche with queenly majesty and spin etc, but I don’t see it as rank worthy.

Demantoid: 5. Tsareena is pretty cool on certain teams
Zapdos Tier 3 → Tier 4
MajorBowman: Tough one but I’d vote to remain in 3. Probably the 2nd best Tailwind setter after Kartana (maybe tied with Suicune) and still has some very good matchups both offensively and defensively. Certainly not as good as it was back in the day so no higher than 3, but I think 3 is still a good spot for it.

Croven: 3, agree w bowman’s points

Demantoid: 3. Still has decent bulk and coverage/power to support its team. Speed control has become harder to fit on teams and Zapdos is one of the few decent setters.

talkingtree: 3, see Bowman

emforbes: 3, I agree with jake.

SMB: 3, agree with bowman
Aegislash Tier 4 → Tier 5
MajorBowman: I’ll say 4 as the sole Aegislash stan left in the world because I’m still confident in Aegislash’s ability to checkmate a lot of common Pokemon with sub/toxic (which I think is the best set right now) and still do significant damage with even uninvested Shadow Ball.

Croven: 4, I actually think this thing is annoying to play against and decent in some matchups. 5 is a bit of a stretch for it

Demantoid: 4. Ghost has pretty amazing neutral coverage while a lot of things can damage it that much. Kind of slow but it can experiment with its moveslots to cover team needs.

talkingtree: 4, don't have anything to add

emforbes: 4, great mon imo, I agree with everyone else. Also one of the few pokemon in the tier that can beat diancie lurantis.

SMB: 4, can do ok on some matchups, sub toxic is pretty annoying
Durant UR → Tier 5'
MajorBowman: absolutely not

Croven: mish (no)

Demantoid: [9:46 PM]MajorBowman:if yall vote durant to 5 i'm going to personally veto it
Bring down corrupt tier leaders.

SMB: Demantoid: [9:46 PM]MajorBowman:if yall vote durant to 5 i'm going to personally veto it
Bring down corrupt tier leaders.

talkingtree: SMB: Demantoid: [9:46 PM]MajorBowman:if yall vote durant to 5 i'm going to personally veto it
Bring down corrupt tier leaders. Give me power as the TL (Tyrant Leader) of DOU

emforbes: talkingtree: SMB: Demantoid: [9:46 PM]MajorBowman:if yall vote durant to 5 i'm going to personally veto it
Bring down corrupt tier leaders.

Ezrael's nom of things to Tier 3' is something we discussed in the VR council discussion channel, but ultimately we decided that we did not need another tier. "Can be deadweight in some matchups" from the Tier 3 description already handles a lot of what was argued for, and regardless of how strong it is, it's cheese *because* it's matchup fishing or less consistent than non-cheese strats. These Pokemon can be extremely strong, but they aren't in the same tier as Suicune and Aegislash -- they're in an intentionally differentiated tier that represents an entirely different reason to be under the larger "Tier 4" header.

In addition, the viability tiering system right now is already fairly complicated, and if a Tier 3' were to be created, there would be very few Pokemon in Tier 4', which could make it even more confusing. As a compromise, we will vote on each of the mentioned Pokemon rising to 3.

Kingdra Tier 4' → Tier 3
Croven: yeah sure this thing has been used on a lot of different teams, all of which to some ridiculous success. I wasnt rly on the rain is broken train but there’s been enough games showcasing this to at the very least bump it up to 3

Demantoid: 3. Rain is very difficult to deal with unless you bring more dedicated counters and Kingdra is the face of rain sweepers.

talkingtree: 3, Nails has shown me the light of how strong Kingdra can really be. Use Specs and you'll be surprised by how much it can do.

MajorBowman: No, I think a lot of the hype around rain is recency bias and I don't really see a reason that kingdra should be any better now than it has been before

emforbes: Abstain, I do think kingdra is an amazing place right now, but that’s because of low fini usage -_-.

SMB: no, i don’t even think this is better than ludicolo and swampert and they are both tier 4 for me
Mega Swampert Tier 4' → Tier 3
Croven: No, i think only kingdra has shown itself worthy of 3. Its ridiculous strength plus spread, lack of 4x weaknesses, and inability to get neutered by intimidate makes it special among all the rain mons. Keeping the rest at 4’

Demantoid: 4’. I think Swampert is the worst rain sweeper. Giving up the mega slot makes it more difficult to fit enough offensive presence in other slots.

talkingtree: 4', what Croven said. I will admit that Pert's bulk make it stand out among other Rain mons, so even if rain isn't up it can still close out game. However, to rise to 3 despite being on a restricting playstyle I think there's another level of viability that it doesn't quite reach.

MajorBowman: no, same reason as kingdra

emforbes: 4’, agreed with above.

SMB: 4’, great typing and bulk but being a physical sweeper is an important flaw since after 1 intimidate drop the lack of damage is noteworthy
Pelipper Tier 4' → Tier 3
Croven: See above

Demantoid: 4’. I think Politoed is the better setter in general.

talkingtree: 4' for the same reasons as before (I probably shouldn't have made us vote on this)

MajorBowman: no, same reason as kingdra

emforbes: 4’, no again.

SMB: If we’re keeping politoed on tier 3 i’d rise pelipper to tier 3 as well. Speed control, ground resist, uturn and flying stab makes it as valid as politoed.
Mega Camerupt Tier 4' → Tier 3
Croven: no, hard TR is a really good team but i dont think camerupt is the crux of it, it would have to hard carry an archetype like TR for me to consider bumping it up to 3. For now, it does not hard carry TR, so stay in 4’

Demantoid: 3. Games hard TR wins tend to come off the back of Camerupt. It has ridiculous offensive presence while also having good bulk/typing.

talkingtree: 3. Camerupt is the strongest part of hard TR (maybe along with Diancie), and it's something that comes to mind every time I build. Almost nothing can switch into this mon.

MajorBowman: no, great mon on hard TR but that's literally the only kind of team it fan function on. Too one dimensional to rise above 4

emforbes: no, while I do think camerupt is a LOT better than tier 4’ it literally doesn’t fit as a tier 3 mon.

SMB: 4’, if it had more viability on semiroom teams it would be tier 3 worthy but until then :(



Changes:
Chansey Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Mega Manectric Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Zeraora Tier 4 -> Tier 5
Tsareena UR -> Tier 5
Kingdra Tier 4' -> Tier 3
Araquanid Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Ferrothorn Tier 5 -> UR

The slate went out and was voted on before the Alolan Persian nom, and as I said above, we won't be doing another full shift unless there is a plethora of noms + discussion. VR council might discuss noms from time to time, but I'll say that (personally, not coming from the whole VR council) I think Persian falls into the category of mons that I understand why you would use it but it's not viable enough to be on the rankings. It's basically great for pivoting and checking Metagross but doesn't do much in most other scenarios.
 
Shift time! This is probably going to be the last shift of the generation since SwSh was just released. Thanks everyone for your input and discussion, especially recently, and I hope everyone can be similar levels of unhappy with these rankings as proof that they're a good compromise :blobwizard:

As before, votes are in chronological order, so that's why the names appear in different orders in different noms
Chansey Tier 3 → Tier 4
MajorBowman: Yes, never really supported the Chansey fad and it’s finally dying down. Chansey really isn’t *that* difficult to deal with and starts to plateau in usefulness after a few turns, 4 might even be too high for it.

Croven: Yes, hasn’t really been used and its getting easier to deal with.

Demantoid: 4. More offensive teams have been getting more popular which Chansey struggles with.

talkingtree: 4, don't have anything to add

SMB: 4, still a great support mon but it’s way more difficult for it to win games than before.

emforbes: 4, agreed with reasoning above.
Mega Manectric Tier 3 → Tier 4
MajorBowman: Yes, I genuinely think the only reason it’s stayed in 3 for so long is because stax sample is such an anomalously good team that carries Manectric pretty hard. Rocks really limit its ability to freely pivot, and it doesn’t have the offenses to just act as a fast attacker.

Croven: Yes, stax sample is the only real team that succeeds with this lmao

Demantoid: 4. Not bulky or powerful enough to do too much in the current meta.

talkingtree: 4, don't have anything to add (again)

SMB: 4, everything has been said

emforbes: 4, already explained.
Mega Latias Tier 4 → Tier 5
MajorBowman: No, I don’t think a decline in usage is a good enough reason to drop something. Mega Latias is fantastic against pretty much every Charizard team and goes somewhat neutral with most other megas not named Metagross. I think its usage drop is more indicative of a passing trend than a drop in viability.

Croven: Nah, this thing is still really good and can be a serious threat. Rise in zard usage helps this, it basically near 6-0’s all those teams anyways

Demantoid: 4. Walls a lot of common mons but doesn’t see much usage right now. Other sets than calm mind should probably be experimented with.

SMB: no, huge win condition and with a pretty positive mu vs some top tier mons like kartana, zygarde, volcanion or zard

talkingtree: 4, don't have anything to add (I wonder how many times I can write this)

emforbes: 4, no way it should drop.
Zeraora Tier 4 → Tier 5
MajorBowman: This one is tough but I think I’m gonna agree with 5, Zeraora is one of those mons that seems way better on paper than it ever is in practice. Snarl that outpaces almost the whole unboosted meta is valuable, but fast pivoting can be somewhat predictable and it has 4MSS pretty bad. That said, I think Zeraora has a place in any meta with as much Tapu Koko as SM DOU so I would never vote to drop it further than 5.

Croven: No, I tested this a bunch with Stratos in snake and it actually impressed me. On several different teams it put in a lot of work, its utility moves are great and plasma fists hits hard enough when you need it to. Stay in 4

Demantoid: 5. Don’t remember the last time I’ve seen it and never really impacted games.

SMB: 5, fast fake out and snarl are the only good things it has and that’s not enough for a tier 4 mon

talkingtree: 5 seems good now, especially with Mega Mane dropping to 4. I still like Zeraora but I have to acknowledge it probably doesn't deserve to be higher anymore.

emforbes: 5, jake put it best.
Mega Tyranitar Tier 4 → Tier 5
Croven: No, it hasnt been used much lately but it can still be perfectly good. Very bulky and can provide a lot of support between its offensive coverage, rocks, and sand

Demantoid: 4. Still has a niche in how fat it is along with its utility//coverage and sweeping potential.

talkingtree: 4, usage =/= viability -- even if that usage is extremely low and in a large tour. Teamtours like Snake and SPL are extremely susceptible to trends that don't necessarily show the state of the meta as a whole, since these trends are better used in bo1 matches (rain, kommo, etc), and the two I just mentioned as examples give ttar a tough time. So I think that's the main reason it wasn't seen much in Snake, and it still has a place in 4.

MajorBowman: Agree with everyone, still a very useful Pokemon even though its usage has failed off a bit.

emforbes: 4, tar is still great and handles a lot of scary threats in the tier. Walling some kommo-o sets is also pretty good.

SMB: i think this has just dropped to tier 4 and should stay here, ice beam, fire blast, sr set is still very valid.
Tapu Fini Tier 1 → Tier 2
MajorBowman: Definitely not, Tapu Fini was such a strong driving force of this whole metagame even though it’s pretty far from being the flashiest of Pokemon. The sheer number of options it has as a support Pokemon is nearly unmatched, and it can still be somewhat offensively threatening with a CM (or even Specs?) set. I’d be hard pressed to place Fini anywhere other than at the top as we close out gen 7.

Croven: No lol its still the best glue to a ton of teams, cm is still a good wincon, etc etc keep this in 1 its good

Demantoid: 1. Snake wasn’t good for Fini but I don’t think we should drop it because of one bad result.

talkingtree: 1. This is the one and only time I've actually considered a Fini drop with the reasons Jon gave, but I think it'd be entirely unrepresentative of the meta to have Fini anywhere but 1.

emforbes: 1, no chance this should ever happen, kommo-o, diancie and rain rising in popularity only put it in a better spot for the meta.

SMB: 1, huge win condition, can run a good amount of support sets, great defensive typing… I don’t see a reason why it should drop, I can agree it’s not as good as before but it’s a top tier mon.
Volcanion Tier 2 → Tier 3
MajorBowman: No, Volcanion is still a super strong Pokemon that can take advantage of a lot of the other popular Pokemon. A fire type that stands up to a majority of water types is super valuable, and a water type that beats all the relevant grasses is huge. The role compression that even just a basic offensive Volcanion set provides is impressive and its spot in 2 is deserved.

Croven: Nah, this thing is always so annoying to play against; its fairly physically bulky and hits like a damn truck with good coverage. Keep in 2

Demantoid: 3. Extremely difficult to fit on a well balanced team while it can struggle to impact games due to its awkward speed tier.

talkingtree: 2, what Croven said

emforbes: 2, fire water coverage is extremely tough to play against when the best water resist in the tier is walled by sub volcanion. Great mon that is just underused imo.

SMB: 2, jake nailed it
Zygarde Tier 2 → Tier 3
MajorBowman: No, we’re definitely past Zygarde’s heyday but that doesn’t mean it’s any worse than was before. Boasting a neutral and strongly positive matchup against the two main Intimidate users is a huge blessing for a physical attacker, and Thousand Arrows is just an insane attack.

Croven: No, i think bowman hit it here. Not the best mon in 2 but still good enough to stay in 2

Demantoid: 2. It can completely takeover games against unprepared teams, but it can always do something even if it’s just spamming E-Speed. DD sets also haven’t seen much usage in a while which I think could still be good.

talkingtree: 2, what Croven said (so basically what Bowman said)

emforbes: 3, I honestly don’t believe in zyg right now, I have a hard time finding positions to just click tarrows when it’s being threatened constantly. A lot of games feel like it doesn’t get as much value as expected from my experience.

SMB: 2 only because of the band set which can be really difficult to switch into if your only intimidate is incineroar. Thousand arrows resists are not very popular except on semiroom or tr teams (lurantis, araquanid, bulu…) which definitely makes it even more threateaning.
Kommo-o Tier 3 → Tier 2
MajorBowman: no.

Croven: Yes, this thing is really easy to slap onto a variety of teams and have a very good win con. Only real hard counter to this is fini, which, while a very good mon in its own right and very popular, isnt on every team, and the teams that lack fini can get seriously wrecked with very minimal chip. Move up

Demantoid: 2. Great sweeping potential that the opponent always has to respect in building and playing. Doesn’t have many negative match ups while it has tons of positive ones.

talkingtree: 3 for me. Fini and Koko are both popular threats that can dispatch of it fairly easily, and many Kommo teams become significantly less threatening if it goes down, so that can just end the game. Kommo is definitely strong, but I think having these downsides is just a bit too much for me to push it to 2.

emforbes: 3, while I think kommo-o is amazing right now, I don’t really see it as the mon being broken. I honestly feel like it’s just a matchup thing, fini usage should be higher and this mon will stop getting as many wins.

SMB: 3, I might be one of the people who has used kommo-o the most but i still don’t think it deserves a spot on tier 2. After all it’s a mu dependant mon, you can improve your chances of getting a right sweep with the aid of goth or strong steel types but I don’t feel it can work alone as well as other mons on tier 2.
Tsareena UR → Tier 5
MajorBowman: yes, see my post in the thread

Croven: Abstain

SMB: no, i just don’t think this is good enough to be ranked. Weird speed tier, weak to intimidate, single typing… Of course its ability is nice but if we want to rank mons that can only do ok sometimes we should also rank stuff like meloetta, xurkitree or hitmontop to name a few and I don’t think that’s something we should do.

talkingtree: 5. I get the point that SMB makes, but I think Tsareena's niche is stronger than just its ability, and Tsar's better than the other mons he mentioned. Bulky pivoting, helping hand, decently strong Grass STAB for rain / fini, and access to other options like HJK for Kart, Knock for berries, and Rapid Spin as Jake said in the thread are all decent options for a fourth slot.

emforbes: no, I agree with SMB. Sure it has a niche with queenly majesty and spin etc, but I don’t see it as rank worthy.

Demantoid: 5. Tsareena is pretty cool on certain teams
Zapdos Tier 3 → Tier 4
MajorBowman: Tough one but I’d vote to remain in 3. Probably the 2nd best Tailwind setter after Kartana (maybe tied with Suicune) and still has some very good matchups both offensively and defensively. Certainly not as good as it was back in the day so no higher than 3, but I think 3 is still a good spot for it.

Croven: 3, agree w bowman’s points

Demantoid: 3. Still has decent bulk and coverage/power to support its team. Speed control has become harder to fit on teams and Zapdos is one of the few decent setters.

talkingtree: 3, see Bowman

emforbes: 3, I agree with jake.

SMB: 3, agree with bowman
Aegislash Tier 4 → Tier 5
MajorBowman: I’ll say 4 as the sole Aegislash stan left in the world because I’m still confident in Aegislash’s ability to checkmate a lot of common Pokemon with sub/toxic (which I think is the best set right now) and still do significant damage with even uninvested Shadow Ball.

Croven: 4, I actually think this thing is annoying to play against and decent in some matchups. 5 is a bit of a stretch for it

Demantoid: 4. Ghost has pretty amazing neutral coverage while a lot of things can damage it that much. Kind of slow but it can experiment with its moveslots to cover team needs.

talkingtree: 4, don't have anything to add

emforbes: 4, great mon imo, I agree with everyone else. Also one of the few pokemon in the tier that can beat diancie lurantis.

SMB: 4, can do ok on some matchups, sub toxic is pretty annoying
Durant UR → Tier 5'
MajorBowman: absolutely not

Croven: mish (no)

Demantoid: [9:46 PM]MajorBowman:if yall vote durant to 5 i'm going to personally veto it
Bring down corrupt tier leaders.

SMB: Demantoid: [9:46 PM]MajorBowman:if yall vote durant to 5 i'm going to personally veto it
Bring down corrupt tier leaders.

talkingtree: SMB: Demantoid: [9:46 PM]MajorBowman:if yall vote durant to 5 i'm going to personally veto it
Bring down corrupt tier leaders. Give me power as the TL (Tyrant Leader) of DOU

emforbes: talkingtree: SMB: Demantoid: [9:46 PM]MajorBowman:if yall vote durant to 5 i'm going to personally veto it
Bring down corrupt tier leaders.

Ezrael's nom of things to Tier 3' is something we discussed in the VR council discussion channel, but ultimately we decided that we did not need another tier. "Can be deadweight in some matchups" from the Tier 3 description already handles a lot of what was argued for, and regardless of how strong it is, it's cheese *because* it's matchup fishing or less consistent than non-cheese strats. These Pokemon can be extremely strong, but they aren't in the same tier as Suicune and Aegislash -- they're in an intentionally differentiated tier that represents an entirely different reason to be under the larger "Tier 4" header.

In addition, the viability tiering system right now is already fairly complicated, and if a Tier 3' were to be created, there would be very few Pokemon in Tier 4', which could make it even more confusing. As a compromise, we will vote on each of the mentioned Pokemon rising to 3.

Kingdra Tier 4' → Tier 3
Croven: yeah sure this thing has been used on a lot of different teams, all of which to some ridiculous success. I wasnt rly on the rain is broken train but there’s been enough games showcasing this to at the very least bump it up to 3

Demantoid: 3. Rain is very difficult to deal with unless you bring more dedicated counters and Kingdra is the face of rain sweepers.

talkingtree: 3, Nails has shown me the light of how strong Kingdra can really be. Use Specs and you'll be surprised by how much it can do.

MajorBowman: No, I think a lot of the hype around rain is recency bias and I don't really see a reason that kingdra should be any better now than it has been before

emforbes: Abstain, I do think kingdra is an amazing place right now, but that’s because of low fini usage -_-.

SMB: no, i don’t even think this is better than ludicolo and swampert and they are both tier 4 for me
Mega Swampert Tier 4' → Tier 3
Croven: No, i think only kingdra has shown itself worthy of 3. Its ridiculous strength plus spread, lack of 4x weaknesses, and inability to get neutered by intimidate makes it special among all the rain mons. Keeping the rest at 4’

Demantoid: 4’. I think Swampert is the worst rain sweeper. Giving up the mega slot makes it more difficult to fit enough offensive presence in other slots.

talkingtree: 4', what Croven said. I will admit that Pert's bulk make it stand out among other Rain mons, so even if rain isn't up it can still close out game. However, to rise to 3 despite being on a restricting playstyle I think there's another level of viability that it doesn't quite reach.

MajorBowman: no, same reason as kingdra

emforbes: 4’, agreed with above.

SMB: 4’, great typing and bulk but being a physical sweeper is an important flaw since after 1 intimidate drop the lack of damage is noteworthy
Pelipper Tier 4' → Tier 3
Croven: See above

Demantoid: 4’. I think Politoed is the better setter in general.

talkingtree: 4' for the same reasons as before (I probably shouldn't have made us vote on this)

MajorBowman: no, same reason as kingdra

emforbes: 4’, no again.

SMB: If we’re keeping politoed on tier 3 i’d rise pelipper to tier 3 as well. Speed control, ground resist, uturn and flying stab makes it as valid as politoed.
Mega Camerupt Tier 4' → Tier 3
Croven: no, hard TR is a really good team but i dont think camerupt is the crux of it, it would have to hard carry an archetype like TR for me to consider bumping it up to 3. For now, it does not hard carry TR, so stay in 4’

Demantoid: 3. Games hard TR wins tend to come off the back of Camerupt. It has ridiculous offensive presence while also having good bulk/typing.

talkingtree: 3. Camerupt is the strongest part of hard TR (maybe along with Diancie), and it's something that comes to mind every time I build. Almost nothing can switch into this mon.

MajorBowman: no, great mon on hard TR but that's literally the only kind of team it fan function on. Too one dimensional to rise above 4

emforbes: no, while I do think camerupt is a LOT better than tier 4’ it literally doesn’t fit as a tier 3 mon.

SMB: 4’, if it had more viability on semiroom teams it would be tier 3 worthy but until then :(



Changes:
Chansey Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Mega Manectric Tier 3 -> Tier 4
Zeraora Tier 4 -> Tier 5
Tsareena UR -> Tier 5
Kingdra Tier 4' -> Tier 3
Araquanid Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Ferrothorn Tier 5 -> UR

The slate went out and was voted on before the Alolan Persian nom, and as I said above, we won't be doing another full shift unless there is a plethora of noms + discussion. VR council might discuss noms from time to time, but I'll say that (personally, not coming from the whole VR council) I think Persian falls into the category of mons that I understand why you would use it but it's not viable enough to be on the rankings. It's basically great for pivoting and checking Metagross but doesn't do much in most other scenarios.
Also for gen8 Persian to meme-tier
 
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Grandmas Cookin

is a Top Tiering Contributor
DPL Champion
i guess i dont need to post replays then lol. yeah i can definitely see why it wouldn’t be included, still a good mon from a lower tier nonetheless. also how did like half of the votes go one way and then have the mon shift up or down anyways
 

talkingtree

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The headers above the reasonings are the proposed changes, and the enacted changes are listed at the bottom of the post. A majority (>50%) of the votes are needed to change a Pokemon's tiering, and if there's a tie, it will default to the current tier. If I made any mistakes on counting votes, just let me know and I'll fix it ASAP.
 

Grandmas Cookin

is a Top Tiering Contributor
DPL Champion
i read the shift as where the mon have been placed without actually seeing the final placement for it. i now see that the votes were on changing its placement and not what each person’s thoughts and vote was for the placement. idk if that reads correctly but it’s sort of hard to explain lol
 

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