Data Updated Base Stats

[Disposable Puppets]

Yes it has a naive nature with maxed out speed evs.

 

[Ckarasu]

You just described Forretress and Skarmory perfectly, but I don't think you'd disagree that they were perfectly viable in OU. The trick is to not leave it in on something that will Taunt it and not try to bring it in on powerful special or mixed attackers. If you stick to what it's actually good at (switching into and setting up hazards all over some of the biggest physical threats in the RU metagame), Qwilfish does its job very well.

Skarmory has more special bulk than Qwilfish, and had better resistances. Forretress has the same deal(slightly better Sp Def), but better offensive capabilities(Gyro ball hurts) and Rapid Spin with Sturdy. They are just better than Qwilfish by a mile, but they do suffer similar issues(though not as extensive), I will admit.

The new metagame doesn't exactly favor Qwilfish, as Mandibuzz is a thing and can just tank out your attacks and Defog all those hazards away. It getting Foul Play as an egg move only helped it, pre-pokebank.

 

[Sōusuke Aizen]

Skarmory has more special bulk than Qwilfish, and had better resistances. Forretress has the same deal(slightly better Sp Def), but better offensive capabilities(Gyro ball hurts) and Rapid Spin with Sturdy. They are just better than Qwilfish vyy a mile, but they do suffer similar issues(though not as extensive), I will admit.

The new metagame doesn't exactly favor Qwilfish, as Mandibuzz is a thing and can just tank out your attacks and Defog all those hazards away. It getting Foul Play as an egg move only helped it, pre-pokebank.

It can wall and hurt fairies qwilfish.

 

[Ckarasu]

It can wall and hurt fairies.

Azumarill, perhaps. But the rest all have ways to deal with it easily. Gardevoir is suicide to try to deal with. Togekiss can take a Stone Edge from stronger pokemon, so Qwilfish has nothing on it. Sylveon can just use Psyshock. Clefable has Psychic to deal with you. Even Dedenne can take you on, and likely win. Klefki and Mawile wall you hard. I can see Florges, but it also has Grass attacks to hit your weak Special Defense. He can't really wall any of the decent fairies.

 

[sarunibi]

Yes it has a naive nature with maxed out speed evs.

I tested this in the Battle Maison in multi battles with an A.I that has Infernape, and Infernape's maximum speed was 176 at level 50 which is only possible with a +speed nature and 252 speed evs (nature was Hasty btw). Meanwhile my Timid Greninja reached 191 speed with +speed nature and 252 evs.

Are you certain Infernape wasn't using any priority moves like Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave? This is definitely odd unless the cpu is just cheating for the sake of cheating. If that is the case, then typical Battle Tower/Frontier/Subway hax.

 

[Disposable Puppets]

I just fought another Infernape that clearly had life orb and outsped him this time. I guess I just wasn't completely paying attention and it really did have a scarf. I could've sworn it used two different moves though. Oh well

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Skarmory has more special bulk than Qwilfish, and had better resistances. Forretress has the same deal(slightly better Sp Def), but better offensive capabilities(Gyro ball hurts) and Rapid Spin with Sturdy. They are just better than Qwilfish by a mile, but they do suffer similar issues(though not as extensive), I will admit.

Yes, they're better than Qwilfish in general. That's why they're OU and Qwilfish isn't. But please don't try to act like Qwilfish was terrible in RU or UU when that's far from the truth.

 

[Ckarasu]

Yes, they're better than Qwilfish in general. That's why they're OU and Qwilfish isn't. But please don't try to act like Qwilfish was terrible in RU or UU when that's far from the truth.

In UU? I'd argue that he's definitely not good, but maybe not horrid or bad per se, as there are plenty of relatively powerful special attackers there that threaten him. RU, maybe not so much. But this gen has not been nice to hazard setters......

 

[Agent Gibbs]

In UU? I'd argue that he's definitely not good, but maybe not horrid or bad per se, as there are plenty of relatively powerful special attackers there that threaten him. RU, maybe not so much. But this gen has not been nice to hazard setters......

I have to wonder if you've actually used Qwilfish in either tier before? As I've already explained, he is quite good in UU. Again, he's ranked A-Rank in the Viability Rankings, alongside UU staples like Rhyperior, Slowbro, Heracross, and Victini. Many great physical attackers in UU such as Heracross, Mienshao, Darmanitan, Azumarill, Weavile, and Scrafty can be checked or outright curbstomped by physically defensive Qwilfish. Yes, many special attackers can beat him. Just don't keep him in on one, just like you wouldn't keep Blissey in on a powerful physical attacker or Tyranitar in on a Fighting-type. Having a flaw like that doesn't change the fact that Qwilfish is pretty good at what it does, and it does it well in both tiers.

 

[Ckarasu]

I have to wonder if you've actually used Qwilfish in either tier before? As I've already explained, he is quite good in UU. Again, he's ranked A-Rank in the Viability Rankings, alongside UU staples like Rhyperior, Slowbro, Heracross, and Victini. Many great physical attackers in UU such as Heracross, Mienshao, Darmanitan, Azumarill, Weavile, and Scrafty can be checked or outright curbstomped by physically defensive Qwilfish. Yes, many special attackers can beat him. Just don't keep him in on one, just like you wouldn't keep Blissey in on a powerful physical attacker or Tyranitar in on a Fighting-type. Having a flaw like that doesn't change the fact that Qwilfish is pretty good at what it does, and it does it well in both tiers.

Talking in present tense, yo. The new meta is still in its infancy, one could say, and I see Qwilfish has not gotten anything that helps him much. This could change later, though.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Talking in present tense, yo. The new meta is still in its infancy, one could say, and I see Qwilfish has not gotten anything that helps him much.

Actually, Qwilfish did get the fact that Poison is actually a worthwhile offensive type now, and he gained a new Fairy resistance. I'll agree that he probably won't have much of a niche in OU, but I imagine Qwilfish will do just fine in the lower tiers. It'll probably still end up finding a niche by beating the same stuff that it did in BW, as well as having several Fairies running around that he can force out and set up on. Togekiss, Azumarill, and Sylveon will probably end up in OU, but there are a few Fairies that might wind up in UU or RU such as Florges, Clefable, and Aromatisse that he will be able to keep in check (depending on the set, of course). It's not much more, but that along with its old niche as a physical pivot will probably let it continue where it left off in RU and possibly UU.

EDIT: Oh, I thought this was the "Old Mon General Discussion" thread for some reason. I just realized how off-topic this is, lol.

 

[Ckarasu]

Actually, Qwilfish did get the fact that Poison is actually a worthwhile offensive type now, and he gained a new Fairy resistance. I'll agree that he probably won't have much of a niche in OU, but I imagine Qwilfish will do just fine in the lower tiers. It'll probably still end up finding a niche by beating the same stuff that it did in BW, as well as having several Fairies running around that he can force out and set up on. Togekiss, Azumarill, and Sylveon will probably end up in OU, but there are a few Fairies such as Florges, Clefable, and Aromatisse that he will be able to keep in check depending on the set. It's not much more, but that along with its old niche as a physical pivot will probably let it continue where it left off in RU and possibly UU.

Most Fairies have access to Psychic, which means that it's hard for Qwilfish to reliably check them. If he had just 10 more in HP or Special Defense, then he'd be able to be a better check to them.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Most Fairies have access to Psychic, which means that it's hard for Qwilfish to reliably check them. If he had just 10 more in HP or Special Defense, then he'd be able to be a better check to them.

Right, and that's why it'll depend on the set they're running. For example, defensive Florges, Clefable, and Aromatisse will probably end up running Wish/Protect/Moonblast/Aromatherapy (Heal Bell in Clefable's case) or something along those lines, and Qwilfish easily switches into those and forces them out. Some offensive sets will probably be running Psychic (Florges) or Thunderbolt (Aromatisse and Clefable), so Qwilfish will have to be careful of those (although Qwilfish can easily outspeed uninvested variants and deal heavy damage with STAB Poison Jab).

 

[Magnemite]

At +2, Wiggly hits very hard, but this is really only due to its moves rather than stats. Its bulk is rather average, as the HP and defenses just kind of cancel out. 85 Special Attack is a bit below average, but it is enough to benefit from a +2. Again, you seem to be underselling it(And I'm certainly not overselling it). Also, you never bothered mentioning Sandslash, who is rather pathetic(last I checked). Qwilfish is actually rather awful, the more I look at it. 65/75/55 is just not good in any respect. 95 Attack is decent, but 85 speed is just kind of slow. And intimidate just does not help deal with all of his issues. His moveset is OK, I suppose. There's a real reason it's not UU.

Of course Wigglytuff hurts at +2. Everything hurts at +2. For example:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Farfetch'd Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hippowdon: 308-364 (73.33 - 86.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Farfetch'd for OU! It really hurts at +2 lol!

Also, yes, Sandslash is bad. However, it's one of the worst RU Pokemon. Most good RU players would agree that it doesn't deserve to be in the tier. It gets more than enough usage lower on the ladder to stay RU. Do you want to know the real reason Qwilfish isn't UU? Froslass. If Froslass had been banned earlier, Qwilfish would have risen in usage enough to become at least very close to being UU, if not UU as Froslass outclassed it as a spikes for offensive teams. Don't just look at a Pokemon's stats and write it off. Qwilfish has something Wigglytuff doesn't, which is a valuable niche.

 

[Bravadorado]

Do you guys think it will be more beneficial for Nidoking to run a physical set now that his attack is a whopping 17 points higher than his SpA?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Do you guys think it will be more beneficial for Nidoking to run a physical set now that his attack is a whopping 17 points higher than his SpA?

Probably not. Timid LO Nidoking's Sheer Force Earth Power is still hitting nearly 5% harder than Jolly LO Nidoking's Earthquake, and Nidoking has so many great coverage moves on the special side that get boosted by Sheer Force. It does have the elemental punches for physical coverage, but Timid LO Ice Beam, Flamethrower, and Thunderbolt are still hitting harder on average than their Jolly LO elemental punch counterparts. The difference isn't a ton, so a physical or mixed set might certainly be viable if it can surprise and beat some of Nidoking's usual counters/checks, but I think the special sets will still be the primary choice.

 

[Riverfield]

Do you guys think it will be more beneficial for Nidoking to run a physical set now that his attack is a whopping 17 points higher than his SpA?

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mew: 187-220 (54.83 - 64.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Nidoking Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 179-212 (52.49 - 62.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Special still deals more damage due to actually making use of sheer force, and his special movepool is much better.

edit: Whoops too slow. Anyway, Nidoqueen on the other hand might be able to take advantage of it a bit better on a dragon tail set with moves like crunch, poison jab, and rock slide.

 

[farranpoison]

I'm kind of interested in Poliwrath's +10 Atk boost. I know the metagame hasn't been particularly kind to Fighting types as of now, but does anyone think the boost will be enough to keep Poliwrath somewhat usable? With Water Absorb, I think he could still be a decent bulky phazer with Circle Throw, made better with his boosted Atk.

 

[JayHankEdLyon]

I'm kind of interested in Poliwrath's +10 Atk boost. I know the metagame hasn't been particularly kind to Fighting types as of now, but does anyone think the boost will be enough to keep Poliwrath somewhat usable? With Water Absorb, I think he could still be a decent bulky phazer with Circle Throw, made better with his boosted Atk.

Fairy attacks aren't very widely distributed, Fairy types in the lower tiers won't be as common as in the higher ones given their small stock, and the whole point of that Poliwrath set is to switch in on something it tanks or absorbs, sub up and phaze. Fairy doesn't change that, and just because we have another Fighting resist doesn't mean the core concept changes.

The attack boost improves it far more than Fairies nerf it, but Poli should probably still run mixed given how much it loves Scald burn.