Ladder Tier Shift ORAS (Swift Swim Banned)

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Why not +5 for Ubers, +10 for OU/BL, +15 for UU/BL2, +20 for RU/BL3 and +25 for everything else? Mega Rayquaza would love to get a chance to wallbreak.
 
No. No Ubers, no PU, and no NFE boosts. Stop trying to change the rules in the middle of a generation. (At least the BL change made sense and was how the original TS was intended.)
But wouldn't a possible Ubers change also make sense since unlike PU, it is now an official tier, and unlike NFE, it is an actual tier.
 

Josh

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But wouldn't a possible Ubers change also make sense since unlike PU, it is now an official tier, and unlike NFE, it is an actual tier.
First of all, think about what you're saying.

+5 for Ubers, +10 for OU/BL, +15 for UU/BL2, +20 for RU/BL3 and +25 for everything else
What the hell is the point of boosting the highest tier? That defeats the whole point of Tier Shift. OU is the highest tier allowed now, it doesn't get a boost for a reason.

In general though, there's no purpose to this. A fair share of ubers will still be way too strong, like for example imagine stall with a fucking Lugia. Stall is already incredibly good in this meta, it doesn't need Gira and Lugia as well.

The current system is fine. There is literally no reason to do such a huge change mid-gen.
 
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I didn't say to add boost to Uber Pokemon. I said I wanted a Tier Shift where Uber's stats would stay the same while OU/BL get +5 UU/BL2 get +10, RU/BL3 get +15, and NU or lower get +20 to each of their stats. LightningLord2 said that cause he was thinking that AG should be added as well (which I don't agree with since AG isn't a tier, it's a banlist).

If Ubers would still be too strong then you could do my original idea but -5 to each stat for the Uber Pokemon. Or you could just add Ubers into this Tier Shift but with -10 for each stat.

I'm not really encouraging it to be changed mid-gen (it's whatever to me), but to consider changing it if Tier Shift becomes an OM next-gen as well.
 
The whole concept of Tier Shift is to make Pokemon below OU just as viable as OU Pokemon. You're changing the concept; that is no longer Tier Shift. It is a different OM that has been rejected several times. Now can you actually discuss the current Tier Shift metagame.
 
FOZ369 Thank you for your response and your interest in our metagame. Ubers have been brought up in the past. There are a few reasons why they have not been introduced and will not be introduced into Tier Shift. Firstly, an Ubers based metagame detracts from the idea of making more and more traditionally weak things viable in OU, because we are introducing things that are traditionally powerhouses. Secondly, Ubers are banned form standard play for more than just one reason. This means that there is no way that we could make all ubers competitively viable and/or balanced by using a single, universal stat drop. Thank you.
 
As a small remark, AG is neither a tier nor a banlist, it's the absence of a tier pretty much (or any ruling whatsoever).

I agree with the general opinion of not introducing Ubers/M-Ray to Tier Shift, as there's enough tools available to break/weaken walls, even without using high attack stats. Knock Off removes Leftovers, Ghost Curse and Perish Song force switches by threatening a KO, Klutz + Assault Vest + Trick/Switcheroo is a permanent Taunt etc.
 
Now I feel kinda embarassed. I saw the name Extreme Tier Shift before, but I didn't know what it was about (couldn't find the thread). I didn't think it was an Ubers-based OM. I thought it was just more extreme in the terms the amount of stats boosted to lower-tiered Pokemon. +30 in each stat for the NU and below Pokemon does kinda seem a little bit too extreme though.

Last 2 sentences on my original post on the topic of Ubers in Tier Shift: "Could this whole idea not be a possibility because it isn't traditional for an OM to be Ubers-based? Or could there a better reason not to go with it?"

I now see that there was no better reason than that. I still don't see what what the hell would be OP in Tier Shift if Ubers were brought down with -10 to each of their stats. Since I still don't fully understand, I encourage everybody who thinks the balance in Tier Shift would break if that was the situation, to post which Pokemon or playstyles they think would specifically be the cause of it on my profile page. Please and thank you.

But I will respect this thread and the people in it by not posting more of my ideas on this topic in this thread anymore.

EDIT: Sorry for causing a scene.
 
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I'm not happy with it because Tier Shift isn't supposed to make lower tier Pokemon better than higher tier Pokemon and more specifically it isn't supposed to make NFEs better than their fully-evolved version. +20 to PU will definitely do that, defensively more so than offensively. I propose the boost be lowered to +4 per tier below OU, that way the PU boost +16 and not +20.

Feel free to comment about which version you prefer with your reasoning being about the metagames. If you don't provide reasoning or if your reasoning is not about the metagames then I will delete your post.
 
I personally think the way it currently is is fine. A 16,12,8, and 4 boost to everything just doesn't have the same feel to it(as in, it feels kinda awkward when it comes to figuring out stats). It also feels like an unnecessary nerf to the other tiers just to balance out PU. About the NFEs being superior defensively, I feel like that was already the case in many ways. However, Knock off still exists, and most NFEs trade offensive prowess in exchange for Eviolite bulk. There are NFEs that have always been superior to their fully evolved forms, and I doubt a rather small +5 boost to their stats will change much.
 
I'm not happy with it because Tier Shift isn't supposed to make lower tier Pokemon better than higher tier Pokemon and more specifically it isn't supposed to make NFEs better than their fully-evolved version. +20 to PU will definitely do that, defensively more so than offensively. I propose the boost be lowered to +4 per tier below OU, that way the PU boost +16 and not +20.

Feel free to comment about which version you prefer with your reasoning being about the metagames. If you don't provide reasoning or if your reasoning is not about the metagames then I will delete your post.
Im personally not a fan of lowering the boosts to "fix" the meta. All in all, the boost are already fairly inconsequential, with the entire S-Rank in the viability thread being Ou. TS honestly adds very few top threats right now, and moreso reinforces a few niche mons than anything. Lowering the boosts only worsens this fact.

Also, how many FE pokemon are honestly at risk of being outclassed? The only ones I can think of are Alakazam, Gengar, and Conkeldurr (which is with +15 iirc). Maybe some other OU threats, but even then that's a hefty majority keeping their niche over their nfe
 
I personally think the way it currently is is fine. A 16,12,8, and 4 boost to everything just doesn't have the same feel to it(as in, it feels kinda awkward when it comes to figuring out stats).
Comments like that are what I was talking about for things not to use as reasoning.

Im personally not a fan of lowering the boosts to "fix" the meta. All in all, the boost are already fairly inconsequential, with the entire S-Rank in the viability thread being Ou. TS honestly adds very few top threats right now, and moreso reinforces a few niche mons than anything. Lowering the boosts only worsens this fact.

Also, how many FE pokemon are honestly at risk of being outclassed? The only ones I can think of are Alakazam, Gengar, and Conkeldurr (which is with +15 iirc). Maybe some other OU threats, but even then that's a hefty majority keeping their niche over their nfe
Yeah, I looked at the viability rankings yesterday to see how many OU Pokemon were in there, and it was more than I would have guessed.

Like I said, mostly defensive Pokemon, such as Tangela.
 
Not being able to switch into Knock Off (or fearing switching into anything with Knock Off) is a pretty big price when it comes to a defensive pokemon, specially one which is supposed to be a physical wall like Tangela. Most offensive NFEs don't completely outclass their evos because they lack crucial moves or abilities (Focus Blast for example) and the added bulk is inconsequential (only a higher speed tier matters there). Defensive prevolutions also tend to be really passive, which i've found to be their undoing since setting up against them is quite easy (and all the good Unaware users are OU so they get nothing) while many Wallbreakers and Stallbreakers become at least a little bit better (MegaHoundoom, MegaHeracross, Hydregon, etc... all come to mind). And finally, many of OU best walls / bulky mons don't even have a prevolution that can compare to them (Heatran, MegaVenusaur, MegaSableye, Landorus etc...) or their prevolution is still beneath them even at +20 (Quagsire, Scizor, Tyranitar, Charizard, Gyarados etc..).
 
I'm not happy with it because Tier Shift isn't supposed to make lower tier Pokemon better than higher tier Pokemon and more specifically it isn't supposed to make NFEs better than their fully-evolved version. +20 to PU will definitely do that, defensively more so than offensively. I propose the boost be lowered to +4 per tier below OU, that way the PU boost +16 and not +20.

Feel free to comment about which version you prefer with your reasoning being about the metagames. If you don't provide reasoning or if your reasoning is not about the metagames then I will delete your post.
I am against this proposal. Changing the boosts in the middle of the tier were force every experienced TS player to essentially "relearn" the speed tiers. We would no longer be familiar with exactly what out speeds what, and it would be quite the jarring change tbh. It would also affect damage calcs, but the speed tier changes would be much more prominent. I dislike the idea of changing the meta in this way in the middle of a generation. Maybe if we were changing to Gen 7 it would be okay since we have to learn the new pokemon as well, but it makes less sense in the middle of a generation.

Secondly there aren't that many NFES that would actually eclipse there FEs with the new boosts. Especially in OU. If you look at OU as a a tier, the vast majority of Pokemon either don't have a lower evolution because they are legends or stand alone Pokemon (think mons like Skarm and Keldeo), or they are vastly different from their previous evolutions (think Pokemon like Tyranitar and Sylveon.) Only a handful of OU Pokemon actually have lower evolutions that are similar enough to "challenge" their FEs. And most of those are still outclassed, like Staryu and Hippopotas. Only a small fraction of NFEs challenge their FEs in Ou. These NFes are Clefairy, Haunter, Kadabra, Fletchinder, Servine, Gurrdurr, and Ferroseed. Also Electabuzz is somewhat better then Raikou, as they both have almost identical stat distribution. Of these only Kadabra and Haunter actually strictly outclass their FEs. Edit:It seems that neither learns Focus Blast, while their FEs do. It is worth noting that both Kadabra and Haunter were Gen 1 Trade evolutions. It is likely that Game Freak made them stronger then most NFEs because trades were harder to make in Gen 1, and they didn't want them to be unusable if the player didn't have a partner to trade with. Clefairy, Gurrdurr, and Ferroseed are all bulkier then their Fes with Eviolite, but this bulk comes at massive power costs. All of these Nfes have 15 less attack in their "main" attacking stat than their FE. Not to mention all of these Pokemon's FEs are generally decent options to switch into Knock Off, either due to a resist or not being particularly reliant on an item. If these NFEs are hit by Knock off, they all become less bulky than their FEs. And while Fletchinder and Servine are both stronger and bulkier then their FEs, especially with Eviolite, they lack speed and certain moves making their FEs still generally superior options. Fletchinder lacks Brave Bird and Flare Blitz, so it must rely on Acrobatics. Without the ability to hold a boosting item, Talonflame still hits harder. Servine lacks Dragon Pulse, making it's coverage even more of a joke then Serperior's. Electabuzz does not learn Calm Mind or Extrasensory, so Raikou still holds an important niche, as it can hit Grass/Poisons such as Venusaur and set up.

There are some other NFEs that seem to become particularly strong, but i seriously doubt any of them will take roles away from FEs. Tangela is a good example. It is bulkier then Tangrowth with eviolite (even before any TS boosts), but seriously lacks attack stats. This makes Tangrowth still generally better. Especially since running Eviolite is risky. As i mentioned before, Knock off cripples NFEs. Knock Off is very common, and very good. Ultimately i just don't think +20 boosts would suddenly make NFEs better.
 
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Just pointing out, Haunter is still NU, so it doesn't outclass Gengar as they have basically the same stats and Haunter lacks Focus Blast.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Agree with everything minus the first paragraph.

I guess we can +20 it for the rest of the gen and review it for next gen. Bringing this topic up in the middle of the gen wasn't what I planned; PU unexpectedly became official.
So confirmed that PU mons get +20 boosts?
 
I know I'm late to the party, bit my take on the matter is that we need more Pokemon with unique roles in TS. The OU Pokemon remain best not because of their stats, but because of how perfectly they fit their roles and what they check. I posted about it in the VR thread if you want further explanation. Tagging The Immortal
 
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