Ladder Tier Shift ORAS (Swift Swim Banned)

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So heres my thoughts on the subject. Wobbuffet's bulk is off the charts, enabling it to preform its gimmick way too well for this meta. I'm not going to bother talking much about Wobb since its almost unanimously agreed he is broke. But do you know what is really broken? Shadow Tag itself. The ability is so much better in Tier Shift then in Ou due to the nature of the metagame. As you know, TS boosts all pokemon from UU to NU, with 5/10/15 to each stat. This makes a crazy amount of viable Pokemon. In order to effectively deal with this, most players turn to generally bulky mons like Mola and Audino. This makes Goth better. There is simply less risk to running Goth then in OU.

Shadow Tag itself is a low risk, high reward ability that unfairly punishes the opponent for simply sending out something that is beaten by the Shadow Tag user. Shadow Tag completely eliminates the matchup based component of Pokemon. If Goth switches in on a Chansey, then that Chansey will lose 100% of the time. The Chansey user completely loses the ability to chose his match up against the Goth and must wait until Goth finally decides to finish off the Chansey. This applies to Wobbuffet as well. Competitive Pokemon matches are defined by the match ups and and choices each player makes. Shadow Tag breaks this concept over it's knee. And I've seen no argument here that has changed my mind.
 
With a Unanimous Decision, Shadow Tag is hereby banned from Tier Shift

Council reasoning:

Ban Shadow Tag as a whole.
Shadow Tag's effectiveness is heightened in Tier Shift. Stall runs rampant, which makes Gothitelle fantastic, while Wobbuffet's boost makes it much better. Shadow Tag is truly in another level in TS, and I think that's what makes this suspect different from the proposed ones in standard metagames. Shadow Tag is undisputedly unhealthy, its increased viability makes it broken.
Ban Shadow Tag
While it isn't impossible to beat, it allows Wobbuffet and Gothitelle to easily murder opposing Pokemon. It has no positive presence in the metagame and a very negative presence. It is definitely unhealthy, and it is a lot better than in it is in OU. While I don't use stall, both my experience with using Gothitelle against stall and Adrian's opinions on Gothitelle finalize my vote on not only banning Wobbuffet, but Shadow Tag as a whole.
Ban Shadow Tag
I've had a lot of self contemplation for this. Meditating, herbal baths, efficient 27 minute naps. All in all I decided the banworthy thing here isn't just Wobb, but Shadow tag. Shadow Tag is by definition impossible to counter, as you're never locked into bad match-ups and always locked into good ones. Wobbuffet is certainly the main culprit to me as an offense player, as it guarantees at least 2-3 kills per game with proper play vs any of my teams. However, it's clear to see Gothitelle has an identical effect on stall, and isn't even dead weight vs offense as long as you don't blow your scarf too early. This is certainly too much for the Tier Shift Metagame.
Ban Shadow Tag
Everything that can be said has been really. The carriers of Shadow Tag ensure wins against various kinds of teams, and that makes the metagame much less competitive than it should be. Again, everything that had to be said was. It's come to a unanimous decision just like we assumed.
Ban Shadow Tag
Its just a dumb, uncompetitive ability, i'm just going to restate what i said in the thread: It breaks the fundamental parts of competitive Pokemon by taking away choice from one player and forcing a bad matchup on them.


Feel free to discuss the new metagame now :]
Specifically, what improves? What is worse? (nothing)​
 

Beta.

Ruff Ruff amirite?
Good Night, Sweet Prince.


I feel that due to this ban, a lot of more mons are usable. Since they are now not in fear of being trapped anymore. Especially assault vest users will not be afraid of a wobufett coming and just tanking every hit it takes, and sending it back to the user.
 
Alright it's been too long since this thread had something happening in it, time to announce a project:

http://tiershiftnichediscovery.weebly.com
(Design WIP)

This website is designed to let us analyze every pokemon in the game. Myself and Ranger Mike both agreed that the best Tier Shift pokemon may have very well just been overlooked, so in an attempt to comfortably develop the metagame, I took it upon myself to make this. This is, in essence, Tier Shift c&c. Feel free to reserve any with me VIA PM, but feel free to discuss viable sets for anything put up on the website
 

Arcueid

nah i'd win nah i'd win nah i'd win
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
(this is so scary in Tier Shift goml)

Project: ORAS Tier Shift Workshop (held by me, Peef Rimgar , insanelegend)
Perms from based The Immortal and Eevee General
Write up rated by The Immortal [10/10]

Tier Shift has a very low userbase. Most of the 'players' that play Tier Shift on the ladder do not actually know how to teambuild for Tier Shift and certain players find it confusing to play with and hence why, the ladder is usually dead.

I mean look at this, this is our top 500:
500 |Pops from RS| 1085 |61.1| 1590 ± 124--

Anyways, what we are going to do in the workshop are give you an introduction on Tier Shift, share knowledge about top threats, and we would talk about the viable playstyles of Tier Shift. We could also try to give a sample battle for Tier Shift and share sample teams. We are also planning to talk about certain Pokemon that are viable as a good lead, choiced, late game sweepers, etc. We will also have a Q&A Session in the end. Anyways, this should hopefully increase the amount of users that play Tier Shift and might reduce cancer on ladder.

For those who miss it, I'll post a log of the whole workshop when it's over.

See you on 7th June 5 PM GMT at Other Metas Room on Showdown!


 

Arcueid

nah i'd win nah i'd win nah i'd win
is a Battle Simulator Moderator
Shoutout to: unfixable, DTK and insanelegend for helping out with the workshop. Twas a bummer that Peef Rimgar couldn't show up. Thanks to all those who attended the workshop!

also 100th Post woop
[19:03:38] +Ruby D: Greetings, fellow users! Tier Shift has a very low userbase
[19:04:12] +Ruby D: and hence why, me, Deathly The King, and insanelegend, are going to do a workshop on Tier Shift.
[19:04:46] +Ruby D: Tier Shift is a very unique metagame, in which lower tier Pokemon are given boosts to make them a lot more viable
[19:05:42] +Ruby D: These boosts include +15 to NU and lower, +10 to RU and BL3, and +2 to UU/BL2
[19:05:59] +Ruby D: Pokemon from BL and OU do not get boosted
[19:06:15] +Ruby D: Everything that get bans in OU also get bans here
[19:06:29] +Ruby D: +5* to UU/BL2
[19:06:59] +insanelegend: The additional bans are the move Chatter and the ability Shadow Tag
[19:07:11] +Ruby D: A recent example is Landorus, which is now banned in OU, it is also banned in Tier Shift now
[19:07:37] +Ruby D: Certain Pokemon, thanks to this boost are extremely viable now
[19:08:14] +Ruby D: Certain threats in Tier Shift from NU are Politoed (was PU before), Ludicolo, Scyther, Sawk, Kangashkan, and Gallade.[23:08:43] +Ruby D: Gallade is pretty good now
[19:08:58] +Ruby D: !data Gallade
[19:09:35] +Ruby D: It now has an amazing 140 Base Attack Stat and a decent 95 Base Speed Stat
[19:10:10] +insanelegend: Politoed is such a huge threat mainly the playstyle that accompanies it
[19:10:21] +insanelegend: *mainly because of
[19:10:25] +Ruby D: Justified is a good ability which allows you to switch in to Dark Type attacks and lets you get that attack boost
[19:10:36] +Ruby D: Politoed, Loudicolo are extremely good
[19:11:02] +Deathly The King: Rain is extremely good, due to Pokemon such as Ludicolo and Kabutops getting large boosts. It is extremely hard to beat if you are using hyper offense.
[19:11:13] +Ruby D: !dt politoed
[19:11:16] +Ruby D: Thats why
[19:11:47] +insanelegend: Politoed gains a respectable bulk that allows it to stay alive and keep rain around longer
[19:12:09] +Ruby D: It has good Bulk and Drizzle, which makes all of the Swift Swimmers such as Loudicolo/Kabutops/Politoed a lot more scarier
[19:12:58] +Ruby D: Besides all the Swift Swimmers
[19:13:05] +Ruby D: Sawk is also good
[19:13:13] +Ruby D: !dt Sawk
[19:13:27] +Deathly The King: Sawk becomes an amazing wallbreaker when holding a Choice Band
[19:13:51] +Ruby D: It can also hold a Scarf too
[19:13:57] %Pikachuun: *poof*
[19:14:36] +Ruby D: other than all the things from NU, RU also has a lot of Pokemon that are more viable
[19:15:05] +Ruby D: Aromatisse and Amoonguss become a lot bulky
[19:15:42] +Ruby D: unlike what you might think,
[19:16:31] +Ruby D: !data aromatisse
[19:17:43] +Ruby D: It can tank most attacks and can be used to force switches and is one of the best Pokemons for stall
[19:19:01] +insanelegend: It functions as a cleric as well
[19:19:02] +Ruby D: Reuniclus can become a pretty scary Pokemon for Bulky Offense with its impressive bulk and scary 135 Base Special Attack Stat
[19:19:33] +Ruby D: Tyrantrum can be used as a hole puncher
[19:19:34] +Deathly The King: Reuniclus is one of the premier wallbreakers of the tier, being able to easily set up Calm Minds and sweep stall teams.
[19:19:42] +Ruby D: ^
[19:20:31] +insanelegend: Tyrantrum is very powerful with STAB head smash
[19:20:49] +insanelegend: Thanks to Rock Head, it is able to spam this without repercussions
[19:20:50] +Ruby D: with Rock Head too
[19:21:16] +Ruby D: With a boost to its Speed and if its at max speed
[19:21:36] +Ruby D: it can punch holes with ease on any unboosted foe
[19:21:47] +insanelegend: It generally enploys either Dragon Dance or a Choice Band to help boost its offensive potential
[19:22:04] +insanelegend: Scarf is also viable
[19:22:46] +Ruby D: If you are using Outrage
[19:23:02] +Ruby D: watch out for Aroma/Mega Audino/Florges
[19:25:16] +Ruby D: Camerupt is also decent in Tier Shift
[19:25:48] +Ruby D: Camerupt-Mega (for clarity)
[19:26:01] +Ruby D: on Trick Room teams, it is definitely a force to be reckoned with
[19:26:48] +Ruby D: with Sheer Force, it can break through
[19:27:38] +Illusio: gratz, ruby
[19:27:43] @unfixable: Illusio, it's a workshop
[19:27:44] @unfixable: shh
[19:28:10] +Ruby D: Its also good on non trick room teams too
[19:28:17] +Ruby D: Other than that, we are moving on to UU
[19:28:56] +Ruby D: Sharpedo-Mega is the cream of the crop from UU
[19:29:14] +Ruby D: with a boost to its speed
[19:29:14] +Deathly The King: Mega Sharpedo is a huge threat in Tier Shift, being able to outspeed most of the metagame after one speed boost, as well as easily killing a lot of offensive pokemon with Crunch.
[19:30:08] +Ruby D: It's also good on Rain and Non-Rain teams
[19:31:05] +Ruby D: Beedrill-Mega is also a decent mon from UU with its ability to take down Bulky Fairies and its niche as a Glass Cannon
[19:31:21] +Deathly The King: Dragalge is also a great Pokemon in TS, being able to use its bulk and Adaptability to beat a lot of Pokemon.
[19:31:28] @unfixable: such as?
[19:32:31] +insanelegend: Alomomola, Amoongus, Virizion, many others
[19:32:52] +Ruby D: 252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 360-424 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
[19:32:56] +Illusio: ./calc
[19:33:11] +Ruby D: I added the stat boost too unfixable
[19:33:37] +Ruby D: M Audino is a trouble though
[19:34:49] +Ruby D: also other than that, we have Slurpuff in UU
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-238798067
[19:41:07] +Ruby D: ^ Witness the end
[19:41:42] @Snaquaza: Ruby D, Deathly The King, insane.. he went away during the workshop. Could we possibly get some time to ask questions c":
[19:41:56] +Ruby D: Insane needed to go
[19:42:09] +Ruby D: sure
[19:42:31] @unfixable: Deathly The King, Ruby D, accept some questions via PM
[19:42:39] +Ruby D: Will do
[19:42:58] @Snaquaza: make sure to announce them here too btw :p
[19:43:05] @unfixable: Snaquaza, i've got it
[19:43:38] @Snaquaza: What do you got lmao
[19:59:55] @unfixable: After Ruby D's and Deathly The King's match, we'll accept questions!
[20:03:29] +Ruby D: Ok then

[20:03:37] @unfixable: PM Ruby D / Deathly The King questinos!
[20:03:41] +Ruby D: me and Deathly The King are open to Qs

[20:03:51] @unfixable: they'll relay the questions to me, and i will /wall
[20:04:32] +Ransei: back
[20:04:35] @unfixable: shh
[20:04:37] +Ruby D: Ransei shh
[20:04:59] @unfixable: Question #1: When building a TS team, what considerations should you take into account that *don't* need to be considered when building, say, a normal OU team?
[20:05:02] +Ruby D: oi
[20:05:05] +Ruby D: we got the same q
[20:05:09] +Ruby D: well
[20:05:12] +Ruby D: DTK did get it
[20:05:38] +Deathly The King: Speed tiers are a bit higher in Tier Shift. Multiple threats are in the 120's range, such as Mismagius and Cincinno.
[20:05:54] +Deathly The King: For a glass cannon, it isn't very good to be in the 110 range anymore
[20:05:54] +Ruby D: but with the speed tiers in mind n_n
[20:06:15] +Ruby D: Q. Are there any viable lc Pokemon?
[20:06:28] +Ruby D: Not in my opinion
[20:06:31] +Deathly The King: I can't think of any
[20:06:34] @unfixable: Are there any viable lc Pokemon?
[20:06:40] +Ruby D: sniped
[20:06:49] +Deathly The King: the closest would be Pawniard, but that is definitely outclassed by Bisharp
[20:07:03] +Deathly The King: oh duh, Scyther
[20:07:42] +Deathly The King: it isn't legal in lc, but it is the first evolution
[20:07:48] @unfixable: What are your thoughts on EXTREME tier shift and how it differs from the normal Tier Shift meta?
[20:08:05] +Ruby D: Extreme Tier Shift huh
[20:08:25] +Deathly The King: Ou pokemon are barely usable in that meta, and it is definitely not balanced
[20:08:27] +Ruby D: I haven't studied it extensively but Scyther becomes a very good Pokemon on Paper
[20:08:37] +Deathly The King: Past that, I haven't done much with it
[20:08:50] +Ruby D: Certain NFEs become good
[20:08:54] +Ruby D: Rain is broken af now
[20:09:20] +Ruby D: other than that
[20:09:23] +Ruby D: no comments
[20:09:34] +Ruby D: since I havent tried teambuilding for it
[20:09:38] +Deathly The King: ^
[20:09:53] @unfixable: Most effective way to stop the plethora of rain teams on ladder?
[20:10:07] +Ruby D: I'd say TR
[20:10:13] +Deathly The King: I've found the most effective way to be using Ferrothorn or another weather team
[20:10:20] +Ruby D: or go on using Ferro
[20:10:22] +Ruby D: sniped
[20:10:41] +Deathly The King: Pokemon such as Shedinja and Gastrodon are also quite capable of walling them
[20:11:41] @unfixable: Thank you Ruby D + Deathly The King! The Tier Shift workshop is now over.
 
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Announcement: Tier Shift is Suspecting Rain Teams
(This is somewhat unspecific but part of the discussion is what would weaken rain)

After talking with many of this metagame's more active players recently I have heard a lot of concern about the state of rain teams in the current metagame. Many people feel they are overpowered and need to have some kind of a nerf to be balanced. Rain has always been a very strong option but now is the time to discuss whether or not it is overpowered and what could or should be done to nerf it. I would like to have a week or two to discuss whether rain should be nerfed and what we could do to accomplish this. Following this period of a discussion, a vote will take place and the nerf will be implemented or rain will be left as is. I encourage suggestions for what options should be used to weaken rain. Thank you and I hope to have many people contributing to the discussion and sharing their views and experiences.

Suggested Options to Vote On:
Do Nothing
Ban Drizzle
Ban Swift Swim
Ban Drizzle+Swift Swim (Aldaron's Proposal)
Ban Damp Rock
Suspect Individual Abusers

 
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Personally, I don't think that banning either Drizzle or Swiftswim outright would be the greatest of solutions. Banning Drizzle will neuter rain entirely, while banning swift swim, which is likely the better option of the two, would indirectly ban any mons whose only ability is swift swim (namely mega swampert). I'd like to see how a complex-ish ban on Drizzle+Swiftswim ban would work, as it seemed to do ok in gen 5. One major upside to this is that it allows rain teams to still work, just making them somewhat slower, and it allows odd things such as Swiftswimmers with rain dance to work still. The biggest downside to my proposal is that it is still a complex ban, and Tier Shift's userbase is already low enough without complex bans.
 
Personally, I don't think that banning either Drizzle or Swiftswim outright would be the greatest of solutions. Banning Drizzle will neuter rain entirely, while banning swift swim, which is likely the better option of the two, would indirectly ban any mons whose only ability is swift swim (namely mega swampert). I'd like to see how a complex-ish ban on Drizzle+Swiftswim ban would work, as it seemed to do ok in gen 5. One major upside to this is that it allows rain teams to still work, just making them somewhat slower, and it allows odd things such as Swiftswimmers with rain dance to work still. The biggest downside to my proposal is that it is still a complex ban, and Tier Shift's userbase is already low enough without complex bans.
as genVI UU can attest to a tier with no rain is better than a tier dominated by rain.
 
5 turns are more manageable than 8. What about suspecting Damp Rock?
That just kinda makes it luck based, as you could get 5-8 without it. Besides, there's still a decent chance you'll get neutered in 5 turns anyways.
Im an idiot

I'm a quite large fan of an outright Swift Swim ban, myself. Yes I know it functionally kills a few things but there's a reason Aldaron's proposal wouldnt be as effective here: manual rain setters.

Manual rain is actually quite easy to set in TS, setters the like of Prankster Thundurus and Liepard, and just fast mons like Accelgor can set it so easily its stupid. Plus, they usually bring even more presence than Politoed. If we just ban Drizzle or go with Aldaron's Proposal, we're gonna be in a pretty similar issue still.
 
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That just kinda makes it luck based, as you could get 5-8 without it. Besides, there's still a decent chance you'll get neutered in 5 turns anyways.
Im an idiot

I'm a quite large fan of an outright Swift Swim ban, myself. Yes I know it functionally kills a few things but there's a reason Aldaron's proposal wouldnt be as effective here: manual rain setters.

Manual rain is actually quite easy to set in TS, setters the like of Prankster Thundurus and Liepard, and just fast mons like Accelgor can set it so easily its stupid. Plus, they usually bring even more presence than Politoed. If we just ban Drizzle or go with Aldaron's Proposal, we're gonna be in a pretty similar issue still.
the difference is rain dance decreases the possible amount of turns you can abuse rain and removes a move slot.
 
the difference is rain dance decreases the possible amount of turns you can abuse rain and removes a move slot.
With Damp Rock you get the same number of turns. If you use like bulky thundurus, you can theoretically get even more turns with a slow volt switch into your SS user
 
Personally I think Suspecting Kabutops and Ludicolo may be the best option. Ludicolo and Kabutops have very few switch ins and Ludicolo can hit most rain resists SE with its coverage. In fact only two such pokemon exist barring abilities: Tentacruel and Mantine. All other switch ins are simply too bulky for Ludicolo to crack, like Chansey and Goodra. If we aren't a fan of suspecting individual rain mons, I suggest a drizzle and swift swim ban.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
I am not very experienced in Tier Shift, but I believe that a Damp Rock ban may be the best option. Not only does this leave Rain has a viable playstyle, but it puts more pressure on the rain setters (whether they be Politoed or manual setters like Torn and Liepard) as they have to switch in to set Rain more often. It worked in monotype--Swift Swim Water used to dominate the meta (hell, it was so good a guy won with a level 1 corsola and a level 1 tirtouga lmao) but now that Damp Rock is banned, the Swift Swimmers only get 2-3 turns to wreak havoc, rather than 5-6. Banning Drizzle wouldn't help, as manual Rain is a thing, and banning Swift Swim would needlessly eliminate the viability of at least 3 Pokemon, whereas a Damp Rock ban would make this playstyle usable, just nerfed.
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

Tier 3 Audino sub
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I personally feel that the abusers itself aren't the issue, but the combination of Drizzle + Swift Swim is the problem, since at least a third of your team is getting +15 in all their stats. Damp Rock Politoed has some insane bulk; 105/90/115 + Water typing is incredible with alongside Rest makes it very hard to take down and can continually provide 8 turns of rain for the SSers to abuse.
 
Ok, so I have replays with a rain team modified to fit these ban requirements.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-239353622 Normal Rain Team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-239356277 Without Damp Rock
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-239358733 Without Drizzle
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-239360396 Without Ludicolo and Kabutops

I suggest watching those. I know that plays determine the outcome of the battle, and hax, and maybe my team was better with some than others. However, none of these options nerf rain as much as we anticipated.
Banning Damp Rock makes rain disappear faster, but that isn't much of an issue since rain sweepers are so powerful. It also doesn't affect rain teams much due to Politoed's huge bulk and switchin opportunities.
Banning Drizzle still doesn't affect rain teams that much, as there are other capable setters such as Tornadus (who can also abuse it!) and Klefki.
And lastly, banning Ludicolo and Kabutops, while probably the most effective out of these 3 options, still doesn't nerf it as much as it needs to be. Other swift swimmers are almost as good, including Beartic (lol), Omastar, and Kingdra!

Therefor, at this point, I believe the only option is to ban Swift Swim in general, as rain teams without them are quite useless, and definitely not overpowered.
 
Ok, so I have replays with a rain team modified to fit these ban requirements.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-239353622 Normal Rain Team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-239356277 Without Damp Rock
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-239358733 Without Drizzle
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/tiershift-239360396 Without Ludicolo and Kabutops

I suggest watching those. I know that plays determine the outcome of the battle, and hax, and maybe my team was better with some than others. However, none of these options nerf rain as much as we anticipated.
Banning Damp Rock makes rain disappear faster, but that isn't much of an issue since rain sweepers are so powerful. It also doesn't affect rain teams much due to Politoed's huge bulk and switchin opportunities.
Banning Drizzle still doesn't affect rain teams that much, as there are other capable setters such as Tornadus (who can also abuse it!) and Klefki.
And lastly, banning Ludicolo and Kabutops, while probably the most effective out of these 3 options, still doesn't nerf it as much as it needs to be. Other swift swimmers are almost as good, including Beartic (lol), Omastar, and Kingdra!

Therefor, at this point, I believe the only option is to ban Swift Swim in general, as rain teams without them are quite useless, and definitely not overpowered.
The only thing these replays convince me of is that Peef Rimgar needs to git gud.

On a serious note those replays are simply too narrow to draw meaningful conclusions from. I like the idea but it needs to be tested more.
 
It would actually be a good thing if you tried it yourself. If you can, please prove me wrong. This is by far the most extreme ban possible for rain, and it also makes rain pretty much unusable. The goal isn't to invalidate a playstyle (seriously I've tried it, rain stall isn't viable ;_; R.I.P Pelipper), the goal is to make it less overpowered and to make the metagame more balanced.
also yes Peef Rimgar does need to git gud
 

EV

Banned deucer.
But Pinsir is NU and Mega Pinsir is definitely not. Pinsir w/ a stone receives zero boosts, correct? Pinsir without receives +15, right? Why can't banned abilities follow this precedent also?
 
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